EPTThis probably means I should switch races cuz I really don't like having a ceiling on my macro. For example, in tvz, there's practically no ceiling cuz it's near impossible to manage 5 control groups of mnms with vessels while maintaining perfect macro (except for FlaSh).
Do all top zergs have perfect macro?
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tdotkrayz
United States136 Posts
This probably means I should switch races cuz I really don't like having a ceiling on my macro. For example, in tvz, there's practically no ceiling cuz it's near impossible to manage 5 control groups of mnms with vessels while maintaining perfect macro (except for FlaSh). | ||
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ramen247
United States1256 Posts
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
Also, thats why i lose. :[ | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
The thing that helps me though is that you hotkey hatcheries and build before a big battle/drop/harass, Do it once during if it's a long engagement, and then do it AGAIN after the battle. This will usually keep my hatcheries running really solidly until my speed can't keep up anymore due to defiler micro or ensnare or a doom drop + middle battle. That i'm hoping will simply come from additional experience. Like mentioned before though, Zerg macro is really unforgiving. Not only does the race entirely rely on overwhelming numbers, but they have the hardest method of macroing to go along with it. Sure it builds faster because of lack of queues, but the lack of queues is what makes it more unwieldy. Any really competitive zerg will absolutely need damn near perfect macro to be a viable threat to other players at a high level. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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tdotkrayz
United States136 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:09 Cloud wrote: AH COME ON, how often do you really look at their hatcheries??? Do you really think you can hotkey every single hatchery you have? Have you ever watched a zvp? Have you ever watched a macro oriented zvt? Have you ever heard of ultralisks? 5su6su7su8su BAM, 1200 minerals and gas are spent | ||
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Clasic
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
t even know how fast lmao. | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
look mineral count, definetly some improvement ;D | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:11 tdotkrayz wrote: Have you ever heard of ultralisks? 5su6su7su8su BAM, 1200 minerals and gas are spent The fact of the matter is that a majority of games simply do not last till ultralisks. Yes, once you get to ultralisks macro becomes relatively easier. However, mid-game macro? Muta-Micro + macro is hard, Ling-Hydra->Lurker macro is hard, defiler micro + flank + macro is hard. | ||
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anderoo
Canada1876 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:11 tdotkrayz wrote: Have you ever heard of ultralisks? 5su6su7su8su BAM, 1200 minerals and gas are spent I think that's a 'No" | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:11 tdotkrayz wrote: Have you ever heard of ultralisks? 5su6su7su8su BAM, 1200 minerals and gas are spent Holy shit, you are totally right. You just made me realize, you dont need more than 2 hatcheries the whole game! 6 larvae -> 6 ultra -> 1200/1200 minerals/gas spent in a split of a second, easiest shit ever. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
The difficult part of Zerg macro is part of what we call game management (and almost all great Zergs were famous for their game management), it's knowing when to spend your money on what and getting away with using as many larvae as possible for drones while still maintaining an army to keep T or P at bay. | ||
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tdotkrayz
United States136 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:13 Too_MuchZerg wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-OCFQhJNok look mineral count, definetly some improvement ;D ROFL, and this is the zerg that beat Bisu? With over 2000 minerals in the bank for half the game against sea.ruby!!!! Wow, pvz really is imba then... | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:24 tdotkrayz wrote: ROFL, and this is the zerg that beat Bisu? With over 2000 minerals in the bank for half the game against sea.ruby!!!! Wow, pvz really is imba then... More like 3000+ half of the game, going 4000+ few parts of the game :D | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:24 tdotkrayz wrote: ROFL, and this is the zerg that beat Bisu? With over 2000 minerals in the bank for half the game against sea.ruby!!!! Wow, pvz really is imba then... Actually Bisu played pretty down right terrible against By.Hero. ZvP has long lost it's imba luster unless you're playing on TOTM | ||
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:24 tdotkrayz wrote: ROFL, and this is the zerg that beat Bisu? With over 2000 minerals in the bank for half the game against sea.ruby!!!! Wow, pvz really is imba then... You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, if you re-watch it he was spending all his gas as it came in, he had 2k minerals with under 100 gas almost the entire time, he can't spend his minerals as much as he wants to, if he has no gas. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:45 lokiM wrote: You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, if you re-watch it he was spending all his gas as it came in, he had 2k minerals with under 100 gas almost the entire time, he can't spend his minerals as much as he wants to, if he has no gas. Every other zerg can do it,he shouldnt be an exception. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:46 arb wrote: Every other zerg can do it,he shouldnt be an exception. It's possible to be gas starved.... That's exactly what happened here, he was simply gas starved and without gas no hydras/lurks/defilers etc etc. Making mass lings in that situation isn't exactly feasible because you have a limited amount of larva. He could have built more hatcheries but him being gas starved makes it a moot point. | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7229 Posts
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EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
For god's sake, some games you won't be able to hotkey all your hatcheries, and Jaedong doesn't hotkey all his hatcheries from what I heard. The hard part of Zerg macro isn't the pure production of fighting units, but rather knowing how to balance expanding, drone production, and combat unit production before your economy is set. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On February 17 2009 09:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote: More like 3000+ half of the game, going 4000+ few parts of the game :D No, it was 2k for like the last 2/5 of the game. It fluctuated down to 1500 and up to like 3k at points. Needs to build more hatches and mass expo with sunkens and the money is easily spent. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On February 17 2009 10:40 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Theres no such thing as perfect macro this. | ||
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I_L_Jl
United States225 Posts
Savior | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Jaedong has better macro than Savior in standard late game play. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
um no... | ||
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I_L_Jl
United States225 Posts
On February 17 2009 12:23 koreasilver wrote: Jaedong has better macro than Savior in standard late game play. In my openion, Savior in prime could keep his min count down(when he needed too), and unit production up better than Jaedong. | ||
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p4fn2w
383 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On February 17 2009 12:37 I_L_Jl wrote: In my openion, Savior in prime could keep his min count down(when he needed too), and unit production up better than Jaedong. This is as dumb as saying that iloveoov had better macro than Flash. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On February 17 2009 11:19 koreasilver wrote: How in the world is going 5su6su7su considered perfect macro. For god's sake, some games you won't be able to hotkey all your hatcheries, and Jaedong doesn't hotkey all his hatcheries from what I heard. The hard part of Zerg macro isn't the pure production of fighting units, but rather knowing how to balance expanding, drone production, and combat unit production before your economy is set. This. Zerg macro is more of an artform then rest of the races in referencing production, Terran and Protoss just keep making probes and work on expo timing in relation to the flow of the game. So its easy to see if someone has good macro or not based on them keeping their money down versus their probe production. This more or less applies to Terran and Protoss with the exception of certain situations that require adjusting and worker cutting timing builds. For the most part your ability to keep your money down while worker pumping from your given amount of nexii/command centers presents something you can easily formulate, the longer the game progresses the more workers you have, the more bases you have, the faster your money increases, the faster you need to spend it in order to have "Good" macro. Zerg is slightly more complex and not as recognized as the macro being as defining in how incredible they are, their macro is more defined off of their decision making, I mean I can play a ZvP and keep my money below 1k/1k the entire time for a 25 minute game, if not longer. That doesn't mean my Macro is good, it usually means that I got caught up being aggressive and using my larva for fighting units as opposed to workers. Which is the problem with a lot of Zerg players, while it appears they are keeping their money low, it can be because they simply didn't make enough workers and are suffering from it. Because of the Larva system, we don't have the ability to be like "Okay, its been 30 seconds, make another drone" not to say that makes our race more difficult, it just makes our macro hard in a different way, and makes it harder to identify a good macro user. Just for another quick example, in all the mirrors, think of how PvP and TvT are macro orientated and keep worker production going, compared to ZvZ, where pushing workers = death most of the time, because of occasional perfect information, and the other guy able to focus his larva into units, instead of economy. If we pretend that all the match ups have perfect information for a minute, Zerg is the only one where it would stop worker pushing from happening. Because allins become more effective due to larvae management. | ||
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stack
Canada348 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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dragonmax
United States131 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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stack
Canada348 Posts
On February 17 2009 13:27 koreasilver wrote: You don't think like that when you play zerg. thx for the wisdom keemosabi.. | ||
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Person514cs
1004 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
But it's true. You don't go out thinking "okay, I'm going to make this many drones for each expansion". | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
And set up hatcheries, everywhere. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On February 17 2009 13:33 Person514cs wrote: Zerg Macro = Making as many drones as you can without losing. if you play with this mindset you will lose | ||
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I_L_Jl
United States225 Posts
On February 17 2009 12:38 koreasilver wrote: This is as dumb as saying that iloveoov had better macro than Flash. Wow, never realized how "slow" his apm was untill now. Guess I was always just too captivated by his massing to run it through an apm scanner, slower than Storks, crazy. | ||
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cujo2k
Canada1044 Posts
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
On February 17 2009 13:28 dragonmax wrote: i think its about 2.5 workers but thats for protoss workers who move faster than zerg/terran NO!!!!!! | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On February 17 2009 16:02 GhostKorean wrote: Don't zergs take their hands off the mouse to 5sz6sz7sz8sz9sz0sz? A lot of them do yes, after awhile you can support that easy because your hand is so quick. I can do it with one hand but it's crazy uncomfortable, so much so that'll i'll risk taking my hand off the mouse for a second to hit 8-0 | ||
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hymn
Bulgaria832 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On February 17 2009 12:38 koreasilver wrote: This is as dumb as saying that iloveoov had better macro than Flash. +1 | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
On February 17 2009 12:37 I_L_Jl wrote: In my openion, Savior in prime could keep his min count down(when he needed too), and unit production up better than Jaedong. If macro was as simple as that..... Macro isnt just keeping your min count down and unit production;; Zerg is abit different compared to other toss/terran but macro is mostly timing. When to stop making scv, when to add buildings, knowing the optimal number of facts/rax, expo timing, amount of scv to maynard, etc. Making depots at the right time, going back to your rax/facts, adding facts/rax when you have surplus, keeping your money down are just parts of macro. Look at Iloveoov vs Foru fpvod. He gets stuck on supply so much yet he just overwhelms Foru because of his expo timing and the timing that he adds his facts are right on. | ||
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dibban
Sweden1279 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
On February 17 2009 16:02 GhostKorean wrote: Don't zergs take their hands off the mouse to 5sz6sz7sz8sz9sz0sz? I thought only yellow did that | ||
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sprawlers
Norway439 Posts
On February 17 2009 16:12 Jayme wrote: A lot of them do yes, after awhile you can support that easy because your hand is so quick. I can do it with one hand but it's crazy uncomfortable, so much so that'll i'll risk taking my hand off the mouse for a second to hit 8-0 Source? I also thought just yellow did this. | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
no idea im a big yellow fan and the way i learnt to sc was to do that lolool | ||
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