I made a FPVod of a TvZ game I played against Mondragon yesterday. It's the first one I did in about 5 years. I try to give some strategic insight into TvZ and explain the stuff I do in the game but there wasn't always enough time to go in-depth =)
regardless, I hope you guys enjoy it, not the best game, but the first decent one since I had the idea to record some FPVods again.
here it is:
some game info, map : destination matchup : TvZ apm : 250
feedback is welcome, and also stuff u guys would like to see in future (if you liked this one). I already plan on doing a couple of ZvP's and ZvT's as well as some more TvZ.
p.s i apologise if my english isn't perfect
and thanks to zatic and tl.net for uploading this to their youtube channel! also thanks to psyonic_reaver for showing me how to do it!
wow, cool, its been said that rets TvZ is the best outside of korea, im sure we can all only benefit from this, thanks.
Considering the amount of top foreign terrans that are willing to do things like this, this is a HUGE contribution, thanks a lot, now if you could only write up a tvz guide...
Good lord ret you are so fucking good!!! your english is amazing and I like the insight you give, I learnt quite a lot from this video:D keep these vods coming!
No thanks to the guy that gave you a free version of HyperCam? ^^
This is very good Ret. I hope you keep doing more! Gogogo Ret!
Just don't ever start out saying this though: HiGuysThisisToTRetwithanotherFirstPersonVodandtodayi'mgoingtotalkabouthowtototally rapenewbsoniccupattheDlevelwithadtrushlolololol.
On January 24 2009 09:11 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: No thanks to the guy that gave you a free version of HyperCam? ^^
This is very good Ret. I hope you keep doing more! Gogogo Ret!
Just don't ever start out saying this though: HiGuysThisisToTRetwithanotherFirstPersonVodandtoday i'mgoingtotalkabouthowtototallyrapenewbsoniccupattheDlevelwithadtrughlolololol.
Did you really have to do that? I hate when the layout gets stretched -_-
edit: Just finished watching the entire thing, entertaining game
After watching the games, here are some of my thoughts:
- personally, I enjoying watching FPVODs where the VOD maker wins. It can either be a clean game from start to finish, focusing on the things you did well. Or it can be a comeback (like this VOD) where you fall behind but you demonstrate the steps to take in order to get back into the game and then take it home for the win.
- haha, ease up on the "here I fuck up..." lines. Humility is a good thing and you are for sure one of the most humble players but everyone messes up here and there. Self-confidence is still a good thing too.
- I'd really like it if you go into more detail about the playing style of various foreigners. You touched upon it lightly in regards to Mondragon's opening BO, what he likes to do and specifically how you counter it (Mondi cuts lings => you go double rax before marines). Stuff like this adds a personal touch and style so the VOD is just straight forward and you only talk about mechanics. Hearing your thought process aloud is great. I lol'ed at the "Peruvian zergs" line. You were fairly behind at one point but the mix of your 2 dship drops, self-irradiating vessels at the nat, and knocking out 9 o'clock roughly all at the same time was art.
Can you run through your hotkeys? Specifically when you make the switch from 567 CC to units, because that's a time I really struggle as an offracing Terran.
All i can say is i loved the FPVOD and i look forward to your next one, i'm actually contemplating trying out terran for awhile now that i saw this VOD.
- Building placement. Your barrackses were closely put together, but your starports and eng bays werent placed together. Also some depots were misplaced. I liked how you made a more narrow choke on the natural with depots though. Helped you out some when Mondragon tried to counter without paying attention.
- Getting bunkers on your third. Two or three bunkers (preferrably with a firebat or two as lings are often the biggest issue) there can really help you lategame.
- Im not sure if you are aware of the clone-technique(you probably are), but it works out really well when you get above 3-4 vessels, because you can stack them and hence it's harder for the zerg to scourge different vessels. Downside with this is that he can plague all of them easier. For me atleast irradiating manually one at a time like you did makes me feel unconfortable as the vessels arent continously moving.
- Your micro can of course be improved as you pointed out you are a macro player. Not that it was bad, but it could be better.
- Reinforcing your main army more often. This is sooo important when you go SK, because you will be able to win battles you wouldnt if you didnt reinforce. Some of the battles where you say "he had more lings than I thought so he won that battle" could have been won if you had reinforcements. If you fill up too many hotkeys, and cant control more of them efficiently get dropships. You did this though
- And lastly as you also mentioned queing up too many units in your barrackses, missing some depots etc(typical macrostuff).
Could be more, but that all I can think of right now.
Hope you make more of these, really enjoyed it, thank you
EDIT: Forgot to mention the energy upgrade on vessels. Getting this is very useful when you get above 8 vessels.
I've seen people deal with the annoying lurkers below natural on destination by having a bunker there with a few marines. I always use lurkers at that spot on this map. If u do it while theres a battle going on it's a big chance your opponent won't notice them for the longest time.
On January 24 2009 09:41 Chill wrote: Can you run through your hotkeys? Specifically when you make the switch from 567 CC to units, because that's a time I really struggle as an offracing Terran.
guybrush i'm pretty sure he posted the vod to help people like you out, not so he can get pointers. he already acknowledged all his mistakes anyways so there's no point in posting something like that.
i hope you make more of these in the future ret :D
I don't even play terran but I really enjoyed watching it.
imo fpvods with commentary are like the easiest, fastest way to improve ever. To see what a pro/gosu is doing in a game and have their reasoning and explanations for it is just so useful.
On January 24 2009 11:07 Guybrush wrote: - Your micro can of course be improved as you pointed out you are a macro player. Not that it was bad, but it could be better.
Actually from the handful of replays I've seen of ret playing TvZ his micro seems to be his strong suit, in fact his control seems far better than most non-Korean Terrans.
On January 24 2009 11:07 Guybrush wrote: - Your micro can of course be improved as you pointed out you are a macro player. Not that it was bad, but it could be better.
Actually from the handful of replays I've seen of ret playing TvZ his micro seems to be his strong suit, in fact his control seems far better than most non-Korean Terrans.
I was only saying it could be better. Surely it might be better than most non-Korean Terrans.
Well you could have identified exactly how he could've microed better, otherwise your comment on his micro isn't of much help.
I mean I could walk up to some basketball player who just missed a free throw and be like "Your free throw shooting could be better." It doesn't that give him any info on how to actually go about getting better.
On January 24 2009 14:28 Straylight wrote: Well you could have identified exactly how he could've microed better, otherwise your comment on his micro isn't of much help.
I mean I could walk up to some basketball player who just missed a free throw and be like "Your free throw shooting could be better." It doesn't that give him any info on how to actually go about getting better.
You're right about that. Still; describing how you could micro better is like describing how you shouldnt forget depots or not queing up barrackses though. I could show Mumyung a FPVOD of Jaedong microing his mutalisks to show how it's done, and that would most likely be much more helpful than me talking about how he should use patrol, and attack the scourges from certain angles, stack his mutas etc.
The parts where I saw potential to micro better were at the first contain he did with the m&ms. First attack Mondragon did with his ling/lurker combo ret microed very well, targeting and killing a lurker and pulling back without losing anything. Then at Mondragons next advancement he pulls back too late giving the lurkers a good amount of kills. ret pointed this out himself saying he didnt pay attention.
Then theres losing that first vessel which he also pointed out. Later in the game the same thing happens, but he says he doesnt care about them being scourged because he needs to irradiate as much as possible as fast as possible. He could have had his m&ms closer to prevent some of his losses there.
Then theres the part @ 3 o'clock where he says he accepted to lose those units because the battle was lost, and he had already taken out the hatchery, and just enjoyed the satisfaction of having done that
Some of the other fights he spread his m&ms very well, but misjudged the amount of units he had compared to mondragons amount of units which made him lose his army. He could have pulled back earlier when he saw the battle couldnt be won.
I mean describing micro errors is pretty much common knowledge, and there isnt a common magical recipe on how to micro better. The only solution to better micro is faster reaction, better accurancy, and fast decicionmaking(knowing when to retreat). This can be obtained by more practice.
There are common guidelines on what to do to minimize your losses though; spread your units so they do not die to splash-damage units/get plagued, twirl your dropship/vessels around so the scourges AI get fucked up, target his units and pull back, have your m&ms infront of your tanks not behind them, dont over-stim your marines, d-matrix a marine and isolate it from your main army to absorb splash damage, do not irradiate a unit that is already irradiated, dont waste irradiate on lower tier units like lings/hydras if you can irradiate more cost-heavy units, have your vessels infront of your army so you spot danger in time, but dont let them stray too far away from your m&ms etc. I could go on, but I think I made my point.
On January 24 2009 11:07 Guybrush wrote: - Your micro can of course be improved as you pointed out you are a macro player. Not that it was bad, but it could be better.
Actually from the handful of replays I've seen of ret playing TvZ his micro seems to be his strong suit, in fact his control seems far better than most non-Korean Terrans.
I was only saying it could be better. Surely it might be better than most non-Korean Terrans.
...Obviously it could be better, even Flash's TvZ could be better....
So getting your second rax before acad after taking your nat is so you can have a larger army to kill the zerg's third gas before lurks are out?
Getting acad first before your 2nd rax was more common before but lately i see more terrans adding their 2nd rax first and i was curious to the difference between adding your 2nd rax before acad and vice versa.
I watched your fpvod and it really shows how to abuse vessels haha.
On January 24 2009 11:07 Guybrush wrote: - Your micro can of course be improved as you pointed out you are a macro player. Not that it was bad, but it could be better.
Actually from the handful of replays I've seen of ret playing TvZ his micro seems to be his strong suit, in fact his control seems far better than most non-Korean Terrans.
I was only saying it could be better. Surely it might be better than most non-Korean Terrans.
...Obviously it could be better, even Flash's TvZ could be better....
On January 24 2009 11:07 Guybrush wrote: - Your micro can of course be improved as you pointed out you are a macro player. Not that it was bad, but it could be better.
Actually from the handful of replays I've seen of ret playing TvZ his micro seems to be his strong suit, in fact his control seems far better than most non-Korean Terrans.
I was only saying it could be better. Surely it might be better than most non-Korean Terrans.
...Obviously it could be better, even Flash's TvZ could be better....
Exactly.
Why are you typing out 2000 word essays on his errors like he's some D player posting a replay requesting help. I'm sure he knows his mechanics could be better. We all know that. No need for you point out every reflex error. Why can't you just enjoy his hardwork and not try and steal the spotlight from him by talking down to him about his errors? Seriously.
On January 24 2009 11:07 Guybrush wrote: - Your micro can of course be improved as you pointed out you are a macro player. Not that it was bad, but it could be better.
Actually from the handful of replays I've seen of ret playing TvZ his micro seems to be his strong suit, in fact his control seems far better than most non-Korean Terrans.
I was only saying it could be better. Surely it might be better than most non-Korean Terrans.
...Obviously it could be better, even Flash's TvZ could be better....
Exactly.
Why are you typing out 2000 word essays on his errors like he's some D player posting a replay requesting help. I'm sure he knows his mechanics could be better. We all know that. No need for you point out every reflex error. Why can't you just enjoy his hardwork and not try and steal the spotlight from him by talking down to him about his errors? Seriously.
I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to do. ret is one of my favorite foreigners of all time, and Ive always considered him as one of the best TvZers outside korea. When people have asked me what players I like most from TL it's him, MidiaN, and DAy[9]. As i stated earlier in the thread I think it's awesome that he has taken time to make this FPVOD, and I hope he will make more in the future. I also enjoy DAys contributions lately on the strategy forum, and MidiaNs old FPVODs, and strategy guides.
DAy says himself he's always looking to improve, and being openminded, studying your own, and others play will make you improve. Theres always room for improvement, just listen to DAys latest audio on triggers in the strategy forum. My post on how ret could improve was probably more of help to other posters here than ret himself. I was hoping to perhaps encourage a discussion around the game itself rather than just watch the VOD post "awesome!" in the thread, and then forget about it. That's how much I enjoyed it. It was a great game.
If it seems like Im trying to "steal the spotlight" or "talking down to him" then I apologize for that. I was only replying to people who were replying to my post.
On January 24 2009 11:07 Guybrush wrote: - Your micro can of course be improved as you pointed out you are a macro player. Not that it was bad, but it could be better.
Actually from the handful of replays I've seen of ret playing TvZ his micro seems to be his strong suit, in fact his control seems far better than most non-Korean Terrans.
I was only saying it could be better. Surely it might be better than most non-Korean Terrans.
...Obviously it could be better, even Flash's TvZ could be better....
Exactly.
Why are you typing out 2000 word essays on his errors like he's some D player posting a replay requesting help. I'm sure he knows his mechanics could be better. We all know that. No need for you point out every reflex error. Why can't you just enjoy his hardwork and not try and steal the spotlight from him by talking down to him about his errors? Seriously.
I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to do. ret is one of my favorite foreigners of all time, and Ive always considered him as one of the best TvZers outside korea. When people have asked me what players I like most from TL it's him, MidiaN, and DAy[9]. As i stated earlier in the thread I think it's awesome that he has taken time to make this FPVOD, and I hope he will make more in the future. I also enjoy DAys contributions lately on the strategy forum, and MidiaNs old FPVODs, and strategy guides.
DAy says himself he's always looking to improve, and being openminded, studying your own, and others play will make you improve. Theres always room for improvement, just listen to DAys latest audio on triggers in the strategy forum. My post on how ret could improve was probably more of help to other posters here than ret himself. I was hoping to perhaps encourage a discussion around the game itself rather than just watch the VOD post "awesome!" in the thread, and then forget about it. That's how much I enjoyed it. It was a great game.
If it seems like Im trying to "steal the spotlight" or "talking down to him" then I apologize for that. I was only replying to people who were replying to my post.
This may be a weird question but why are you capitalizing Day's name so retardedly? Did he used to do it like that at some point?
Thanks alot for the FPVod Ret, that was very informative. Now we need some sick ZvT and ZvP vods please. Thanks alot for your effort, your TvZ is so clean and sick.
On January 24 2009 11:07 Guybrush wrote: - Your micro can of course be improved as you pointed out you are a macro player. Not that it was bad, but it could be better.
Actually from the handful of replays I've seen of ret playing TvZ his micro seems to be his strong suit, in fact his control seems far better than most non-Korean Terrans.
I was only saying it could be better. Surely it might be better than most non-Korean Terrans.
...Obviously it could be better, even Flash's TvZ could be better....
Exactly.
Why are you typing out 2000 word essays on his errors like he's some D player posting a replay requesting help. I'm sure he knows his mechanics could be better. We all know that. No need for you point out every reflex error. Why can't you just enjoy his hardwork and not try and steal the spotlight from him by talking down to him about his errors? Seriously.
I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to do. ret is one of my favorite foreigners of all time, and Ive always considered him as one of the best TvZers outside korea. When people have asked me what players I like most from TL it's him, MidiaN, and DAy[9]. As i stated earlier in the thread I think it's awesome that he has taken time to make this FPVOD, and I hope he will make more in the future. I also enjoy DAys contributions lately on the strategy forum, and MidiaNs old FPVODs, and strategy guides.
DAy says himself he's always looking to improve, and being openminded, studying your own, and others play will make you improve. Theres always room for improvement, just listen to DAys latest audio on triggers in the strategy forum. My post on how ret could improve was probably more of help to other posters here than ret himself. I was hoping to perhaps encourage a discussion around the game itself rather than just watch the VOD post "awesome!" in the thread, and then forget about it. That's how much I enjoyed it. It was a great game.
If it seems like Im trying to "steal the spotlight" or "talking down to him" then I apologize for that. I was only replying to people who were replying to my post.
This may be a weird question but why are you capitalizing Day's name so retardedly? Did he used to do it like that at some point?
On January 24 2009 16:54 Blind wrote: Thanks ret. Nice to see a low apm terran, and in tvz too. Very informative and helpful
250 is low? oO
He does seem really slow compared to the new breeds (which doesnt mean at all they are better than him) because Mondragon, Testie, Ret all seem to be low apm guys but they sure are one of the best and were at some point.
I think Im faster in apm than ret but like I said in one of my blogs.. all my speed goes down the toilet... I got raped so badly yesterday by a B zerg T_T
Anyways compare nonys apm etc...
Good thing about seeing low apm players FPVODs is that you can clearly see every single thing they are doing and you understand it better and "make it seem ez" and makes us noobs wanna practice hard to be good like that etc
Now I am a bit little lost with this 16 cc opening.
I don't know if constant marine and scv production is better with cc at 20 or this kind of cut production with cc at around 16. Ret placed a second barrack before the first marine, because he didn't see zerglings. If he sees zerglings, he has to build a bunker, it also means even more cut SCVs I think.
Very nice game, I caught myself wanting a FPVOD of Mondragon from the same game, just to see how he was trying to handle how you were playing. I thought he had won it for awhile into the game, but he made some critical mistakes which you capitalized on perfectly.
On January 24 2009 16:54 Blind wrote: Thanks ret. Nice to see a low apm terran, and in tvz too. Very informative and helpful
250 is low? oO
He does seem really slow compared to the new breeds (which doesnt mean at all they are better than him) because Mondragon, Testie, Ret all seem to be low apm guys but they sure are one of the best and were at some point.
I think Im faster in apm than ret but like I said in one of my blogs.. all my speed goes down the toilet... I got raped so badly yesterday by a B zerg T_T
Anyways compare nonys apm etc...
Good thing about seeing low apm players FPVODs is that you can clearly see every single thing they are doing and you understand it better and "make it seem ez" and makes us noobs wanna practice hard to be good like that etc
Ret has pretty high EAPM tho, which is the only thing that counts,I think he's about 180-200ish
I can definitely hear you are Dutch, but you speak English quite fluenty. It's pretty cool.
Many many thanks for the fpvod. It's absolutely great.
@Pullmull I think he multitasks quite well, but I think he does react slower than strong Korean terrans. It's a subtle difference but it has an impact.
On January 24 2009 16:54 Blind wrote: Thanks ret. Nice to see a low apm terran, and in tvz too. Very informative and helpful
250 is low? oO
He does seem really slow compared to the new breeds (which doesnt mean at all they are better than him) because Mondragon, Testie, Ret all seem to be low apm guys but they sure are one of the best and were at some point.
I think Im faster in apm than ret but like I said in one of my blogs.. all my speed goes down the toilet... I got raped so badly yesterday by a B zerg T_T
Anyways compare nonys apm etc...
Good thing about seeing low apm players FPVODs is that you can clearly see every single thing they are doing and you understand it better and "make it seem ez" and makes us noobs wanna practice hard to be good like that etc
Ret has pretty high EAPM tho, which is the only thing that counts,I think he's about 180-200ish
On January 24 2009 16:54 Blind wrote: Thanks ret. Nice to see a low apm terran, and in tvz too. Very informative and helpful
250 is low? oO
He does seem really slow compared to the new breeds (which doesnt mean at all they are better than him) because Mondragon, Testie, Ret all seem to be low apm guys but they sure are one of the best and were at some point.
I think Im faster in apm than ret but like I said in one of my blogs.. all my speed goes down the toilet... I got raped so badly yesterday by a B zerg T_T
Anyways compare nonys apm etc...
Good thing about seeing low apm players FPVODs is that you can clearly see every single thing they are doing and you understand it better and "make it seem ez" and makes us noobs wanna practice hard to be good like that etc
Ret has pretty high EAPM tho, which is the only thing that counts,I think he's about 180-200ish
180-200 isnt fast apm anymore -_-;
It is fast for EAPM imo.
And as alot of people said, great english. Would like to se a few vods with more "perfect" play and thus shorter game time. I tend to learn alot more from such reps and it would be interesting to se if it is the same with fpvods.
On January 24 2009 16:54 Blind wrote: Thanks ret. Nice to see a low apm terran, and in tvz too. Very informative and helpful
250 is low? oO
He does seem really slow compared to the new breeds (which doesnt mean at all they are better than him) because Mondragon, Testie, Ret all seem to be low apm guys but they sure are one of the best and were at some point.
I think Im faster in apm than ret but like I said in one of my blogs.. all my speed goes down the toilet... I got raped so badly yesterday by a B zerg T_T
Anyways compare nonys apm etc...
Good thing about seeing low apm players FPVODs is that you can clearly see every single thing they are doing and you understand it better and "make it seem ez" and makes us noobs wanna practice hard to be good like that etc
Ret has pretty high EAPM tho, which is the only thing that counts,I think he's about 180-200ish
180-200 isnt fast apm anymore -_-;
its EAPM, progamers have about 190-240 EAPM so 200 is really high for a non-korean
Awesome FPVoD I love em, plus explaining what you were thinking is really helpfull and insightful about how to do TvZ, Thanks. More Please . Ill watch em.
On January 25 2009 03:36 freelander wrote: Now I am a bit little lost with this 16 cc opening.
I don't know if constant marine and scv production is better with cc at 20 or this kind of cut production with cc at around 16. Ret placed a second barrack before the first marine, because he didn't see zerglings. If he sees zerglings, he has to build a bunker, it also means even more cut SCVs I think.
Which one is better? :\
Doesn't matter if he has to build a bunker and delay that 2nd rax. He's still benefitting more by getting that CC down on spot and earlier, rather than delaying it and having to lift it down. You're also forgetting that Z is also investing in offensive units rather than economy if he were to build more than 2-4 lings. So they'd be pretty much even or Ret would probably still be a bit ahead even if he bunkered.
do they have ZvZ in korean leagues? i read some comment on youtube that said they don't do ZvZ because it sucks. it sounded outrageous so i thought i'd ask
On January 28 2009 07:28 eMbrace wrote: noob question and slightly off subject:
do they have ZvZ in korean leagues? i read some comment on youtube that said they don't do ZvZ because it sucks. it sounded outrageous so i thought i'd ask
They do do ZvZ. What you heard was probably that you can't have the Zerg/Zerg combination in a 2v2 match (as with any other mirror) unless 1 of them randoms zerg.
EPT
