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On December 07 2008 06:29 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 06:10 lgdDante wrote:On December 07 2008 06:04 rkarhu wrote:
I really dont understand how using the keyboard with the right hand is better than the left hand. I think it's really tedious to press alt+tab+shift+ctrl with your right hand thumb and all the other keys feel alot harder to press too.
I think people should just try to practice more instead of using their time on these pointless theories, that's the best way to gain an edge over your opponent. Exactly what I was thinking the whole time i read this. If you have the time to completely retrain yourself how to control a mouse/keyboard with the opposite hands, why not just spend the time to get your BOs down and shit. Unless you're already at your absolute peak and the only thing holding you back is your left hand being clumsy on the keyboard, then maybe... Assuming I want to be competitive which I already mentioned.. mass gaming and traditional practice is a given.. I do those things already and am going to do them infinitely harder when sc2 beta starts. We are in a unique position were we know so much about this game that isn't out yet and have the opportunity to prepare. You said if someone is at their peak then it might be helpful, so given that we have this time to prepare why not do it now? If you are already a very strong competitive player then you cannot switch because you will lose all this time relearning things. But being that the game hasn't come out yet now is the only time to re-optimize things that take any significant amount of time to learn.
I can say the same exact thing to you. You seem to want to put alot of time into SC2, say 6 months down the road you find theres a problem with this way of using the keyboard, you will have just wasted however many months you spent totally relearning how to physically play SC.
It seems like too drastic of a measure to take for something that hasnt been proven to actually be better. And my point wasn't that a change like this should only be attempted by the pros, my point was that until you are at the pro level, there's much more significant things to be correcting then dealing with something like this.
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Doing this is passive.. it's not like it takes time away from other things..
After 4 days I can already competently play SC and WC.. I'm not as fast but I will be very soon.
Also in your first paragraph you again talk about possible problems as though you cannot think it out and determine if that will be the case. Anyways there are already left handed progamers currently without custom keys playing on the brutal default settings..
But seriously you talk about problems like they are this mythic thing that will suddenly come out of nowhere.. don't ever aspire to become a scientist.
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Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while.
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On December 07 2008 08:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while.
Yeah definitely part of it is that pinky fingers aren't as strong but I think even if like yourself a person has a well trained pinky finger, in order to push TAB and ` with it, you actually have use muscles in your wrist and arm which is obviously far from optimal.
It's kind of like why having a monitor over 22' is bad, if the screen is so big that you actually have to use your neck muscles to view corners of it instead of having the whole thing covered with just your eyes, it slows you down.
I'm sure some WC3 players use their middle fingers for tab, you are able to do that without moving the wrist but it's a little awkward imo
I think the bottom line of my argument is how many useful keys you are in range of when your hand is in its natural position.. because never having to stray far from that will speed a player up considerably.
When your right hand is in its natural position it makes a backwards C shape.. which is also the shape the keys you need access to on the keyboard makes... just hold your right hand up to this picture.
![[image loading]](http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/623/rhkbmv6.jpg)
Now try it with your left and try to maintain easy access to `TAB SHIFT CTRL all at the same time. As far as I can tell it can't be done, the one thing you do gain with the left hand is easy access to B and V which as discussed before is going to be irrelevant for SC2
Anyways I realize you weren't disagreeing with me enough to warrant all of this convincing so sorry lol... I am still in debate mode from the previous posts.
I really did appreciate your posting style after most of page 1.
And yes it really is fun relearning everything, it gets easier pretty quickly but I still find myself going for the mouse with my right hand a couple times a day.
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On December 07 2008 09:33 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 08:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while. Yeah definitely part of it is that pinky fingers aren't as strong but I think even if like yourself a person has a well trained pinky finger, in order to push TAB and ` with it, you actually have use muscles in your wrist and arm which is obviously far from optimal.
Lol there are no muscles in your fingers. Please don't pull facts out of your ass.
(to be accurate, no muscles originating solely in the finger)
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um lol
You bolded me saying that you have to use muscles in your wrist and arm to use your pinky to push TAB
On what planet does that count as me saying that there muscles in your finger?
Even if you didn't make yourself look like an idiot and respond to something that never happened... how on earth do you make such an off topic post.. what the fuck is going on, I don't understand how humans are capable of acting like this..
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if it works for you then go at it. feels like people here are somewhat criticizing a 'cripple' for using whatever functionality he has left. if by doing this switching makes for better ass-raping sc skills, by all means.
i on the other hand don't need no stinkin' custom hotkeys--my left can do everything.
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On December 07 2008 11:09 mmgoose wrote:
if it works for you then go at it. feels like people here are somewhat criticizing a 'cripple' for using whatever functionality he has left. if by doing this switching makes for better ass-raping sc skills, by all means.
i on the other hand don't need no stinkin' custom hotkeys--my left can do everything.
Heh, that's like a tennis pro saying he doesn't need new racquets and that he will use old wooden ones.
Better setup raises your potential.. but anyways thanks for the support
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On December 07 2008 10:01 inReacH wrote:
um lol
You bolded me saying that you have to use muscles in your wrist and arm to use your pinky to push TAB
On what planet does that count as me saying that there muscles in your finger?
Even if you didn't make yourself look like an idiot and respond to something that never happened... how on earth do you make such an off topic post.. what the fuck is going on, I don't understand how humans are capable of acting like this..
I don't get it.
In your post you said that using muscles in your arm and wrist to move pinky was far from optimal. Ok, I could have been wrong if you mean that "Humans should evolve muscles in their pinkys in order to avoid having to use the far from optimal muscles in their arm and wrist" Is that what you meant then? I'm sorry if it is, because then you are ridiculously stupid.
And it really is you just making yourself look more stupid by not even understanding the implications of your own post, let alone mine. I mean really, please learn to read.
Edit: If you still can't read between the lines, then let me lay it out for you:
You have to use muscles in you arm and wrist to move ANY finger. I still don't understand your post.
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Oh I didn't mean use the muscles that control your pinky, I meant actually having to move your arm/wrist/hand so that your pinky is in a position where it can reach tab..
Maybe it's my fault for not being clear, regardless your post still doesn't accomplish anything and I don't understand why you made it other than make some irrelevant observation that maybe some people might not know AKA being a smartass..
I think if you had actually been reading what I'm saying instead of looking through my post for something that isn't right so you can correct it you might have realized that I meant move your arm/wrist because it's pretty obviously that you need to do that in order to hit tab with your pinky.
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I think the mouse hand is just as important or more important than the keyboard hand, and having to retrain yourself to be fast and coordinated with your left hand is not worth the easier hotkeys.
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On December 07 2008 09:33 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 08:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while. Yeah definitely part of it is that pinky fingers aren't as strong but I think even if like yourself a person has a well trained pinky finger, in order to push TAB and ` with it, you actually have use muscles in your wrist and arm which is obviously far from optimal. It's kind of like why having a monitor over 22' is bad, if the screen is so big that you actually have to use your neck muscles to view corners of it instead of having the whole thing covered with just your eyes, it slows you down. I'm sure some WC3 players use their middle fingers for tab, you are able to do that without moving the wrist but it's a little awkward imo I think the bottom line of my argument is how many useful keys you are in range of when your hand is in its natural position.. because never having to stray far from that will speed a player up considerably. When your right hand is in its natural position it makes a backwards C shape.. which is also the shape the keys you need access to on the keyboard makes... just hold your right hand up to this picture. Now try it with your left and try to maintain easy access to `TAB SHIFT CTRL all at the same time. As far as I can tell it can't be done, the one thing you do gain with the left hand is easy access to B and V which as discussed before is going to be irrelevant for SC2 Anyways I realize you weren't disagreeing with me enough to warrant all of this convincing so sorry lol... I am still in debate mode from the previous posts. I really did appreciate your posting style after most of page 1. And yes it really is fun relearning everything, it gets easier pretty quickly but I still find myself going for the mouse with my right hand a couple times a day.
dude use your ring finger to push tab and ` dur
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On December 07 2008 12:53 nevake wrote:
I think the mouse hand is just as important or more important than the keyboard hand, and having to retrain yourself to be fast and coordinated with your left hand is not worth the easier hotkeys.
Yeah absolutely, this is definitely the question, whether or not it's worth it. I read an article about a woman who switched hands because of pain and she said that after as little as month she felt left dominant.. and I know I am using the mouse a lot more than she did.
The one good thing is you get to shed all those awful habits you had because during the time were you are greatly slowed down you would be executing your bad habits slower and can catch yourself.. but I've found that some of the bad habits I just don't do any more at all and I really don't think they will come back. It's nice starting from scratch with the actual intention of creating an design/execution scheme for every genre of action in RTS games.
It's been 4-5 days now and I'm still improving really rapidly so it's hard to say when it will begin to plateau but it's quite interesting anyways.
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On December 07 2008 13:10 gameguard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 09:33 inReacH wrote:On December 07 2008 08:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while. Yeah definitely part of it is that pinky fingers aren't as strong but I think even if like yourself a person has a well trained pinky finger, in order to push TAB and ` with it, you actually have use muscles in your wrist and arm which is obviously far from optimal. It's kind of like why having a monitor over 22' is bad, if the screen is so big that you actually have to use your neck muscles to view corners of it instead of having the whole thing covered with just your eyes, it slows you down. I'm sure some WC3 players use their middle fingers for tab, you are able to do that without moving the wrist but it's a little awkward imo I think the bottom line of my argument is how many useful keys you are in range of when your hand is in its natural position.. because never having to stray far from that will speed a player up considerably. When your right hand is in its natural position it makes a backwards C shape.. which is also the shape the keys you need access to on the keyboard makes... just hold your right hand up to this picture. Now try it with your left and try to maintain easy access to `TAB SHIFT CTRL all at the same time. As far as I can tell it can't be done, the one thing you do gain with the left hand is easy access to B and V which as discussed before is going to be irrelevant for SC2 Anyways I realize you weren't disagreeing with me enough to warrant all of this convincing so sorry lol... I am still in debate mode from the previous posts. I really did appreciate your posting style after most of page 1. And yes it really is fun relearning everything, it gets easier pretty quickly but I still find myself going for the mouse with my right hand a couple times a day. dude use your ring finger to push tab and ` dur
It moves your hand out of position.. it's not as good and that wasn't my only point anyways.
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You're going to sacrifice so much mouse accuracy switching mouse hands, though. That in and of itself is a VERY IMPORTANT skill that i'm not very good at even with my right hand.
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On December 07 2008 14:03 PH wrote:
You're going to sacrifice so much mouse accuracy switching mouse hands, though. That in and of itself is a VERY IMPORTANT skill that i'm not very good at even with my right hand.
Yeah again this is the question, it might be difficult to make up for years of experience.
My right hand was VERY fast and well developed as I spend a lot of time training it with games like this:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/games/play/1145/
My fastest time with my right hand is 2.825 seconds
After switching my left hands time was averaging like 8 seconds lol
It's down a lot in the last few days.. I think this will be a decent way to track my progress though it's certainly not the be all and end all.
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On December 07 2008 06:20 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2008 06:04 rkarhu wrote:
I really dont understand how using the keyboard with the right hand is better than the left hand. I think it's really tedious to press alt+tab+shift+ctrl with your right hand thumb and all the other keys feel alot harder to press too.
I think people should just try to practice more instead of using their time on these pointless theories, that's the best way to gain an edge over your opponent. Do you even realize you already use your thumb for B and V in starcraft.. that's the main reason why lefties were handicapped in SC.
Err... I really don't use my left thumb for anything in SC (except pressing space), I press b and v with my index finger (not the "optimal" perhaps, but definitely the optimal for ME). Having said that, I really think that while repositioning your hand might work for you, it's definitely not worth it for 99,9 % of the players as it feels forced and artificial. Like all things in life, this is highly individualized (not sure of the word).
But GL in the effort (and tone down the hostility a bit)  .
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that youtube made it worth it
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Belgium9945 Posts
if you're removing hindering keys, make sure to remove F1 too. It's one of the most mishit keys (if you use location hotkeys/want to cancel something using escape you can easily touch it)
on topic: you're going too far imo
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On December 06 2008 23:51 inReacH wrote:
on the back of the card I wrote "This is the back!"
She now periodically labels things in my house with this observation.
I found this really cute.
On December 07 2008 02:32 SnowFalling wrote:1a2a3a shouldnt be hard to reach for all the toss players out there 
it would just be 1a for all races anyways
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EPT
