This thread is going to mainly be about tweaking and perfecting your keyboard for Starcraft and more importantly in my opinion, Starcraft 2. Also I will discuss some of the things I do in SC currently, to better prepare for SC2.
I realize some of you are 'above' doing everything you can do be the best SC/SC2 player you can be, but please if you are one of those just steer clear of this thread because myself and many others are interested in playing competitively.
Now, why is this thread name "The Switch"?
While Jerry and George's switch isn't relevant to the switch I'm going to talk about here, they do show that sometimes when there is a better way out there, you sometimes have to go for it even though it may end in disaster.
Four days ago, I switched from using my mouse with my right hand, to my left hand.
Many of you may dismiss the merits of this immediately but I ask that you hear me out.
A few major truths were taken into consideration as this decision was made.
The first and most important is that SC2 will have customizable hotkeys. The reason for this is that some hotkeys are a nightmare to push for the right handed keyboarder. The build button is probably the worst of it. Without customizable hotkeys, the pinky finger does way too much and stronger fingers like the index are restricted to the far left of the keyboard which from a design perspective is just terrible. This all changes with custom keys, yes the index is still restricted but it no longer need to move out of position to have a hugely active role.
The second truth which is not definite but very likely, and also relevant to the activity of the index finger is that TAB is going to have a huge role in SC2, it will cycle through your selected units as it did in WC3. For example if you have 3 zealots and 1 high templar in control group one, you push [1] [TAB] [-STORMHOTKEY-] and then you can use storm without having to have only the high templar selected. Also the ` key was very strong in WC3 as well, if you have an idle worker pushing ` will select and screen center on that worker. If you have multiple idles you will be able to cycle through them with the ` key. Using these keys a lot in SC2 is going to be very awkward for 99% of gamers. Just try pushing CTRL, SHIFT, TAB and ` in succession very quickly with the standard left handed position.
Also, because your thumb is shorter that the rest of your fingers, using it for CTRL and SHIFT(though it does other things) leaves your other fingers with a high 'home position', this is better for using control groups AND F-keys if that feature is in SC2. Contrary to what some of you might think this higher position does not take away from your ability to push enough hotkeys. And yes it is now a matter of enough hotkeys being easy to push and not the correct hotkeys because of SC2. However just having them all splattered in the top left without thinking of button combos is far from optimal.
Now I personally have been using custom hotkeys for months now, just to be ahead of the curve on customkeys for SC2. I setup all my hotkeys to be theoretically optimal for SC2. Yes, I went to blizzcon and played it but I wouldn't have had to to figure out what is optimal. It's highly intuitive if you spend time thinking about it... and I have spent a lot.
I won't go as far as telling you all my hotkeys because I would inevitably start also rationalizing all of them and this article would get far too long and tedious.
I don't expect anyone to switch hands because of this thread, it's actually a fairly large and difficult commitment, but before this I spent a ton of time optimizing my keyboard for my left hand, if anyone wants to discuss that or anything else then feel free to post or pm me.
Lol I thought I'd include this image also, this is the back of my keyboard. Last Valentines day I got my GF flowers etc, and on the back of the card I wrote "This is the back!"
She now periodically labels things in my house with this observation.
I'm posting here for people who didn't bother reading the article to tell you to put your right hand on the picture of that keyboard with the intention of easily pushing only the following keys.
CTRL SHIFT TAB and `12345 and qwert asdfg zx
Now do it with your left hand.. and yes TAB and ` are important
Again if anyone is interested in discussing this further AND is seriously interested in playing Starcraft 2 competitively send me a pm and we can share ideas and play together! This is kind of the tip of the iceberg of all the things I'm doing to prepare for sc2...
You say that the hotkeys will be customisable. Possibly not CTRL and SHIFT though. But why change hand when you can just use the CTRL and SHIFT on the right side of the keyboard with your thumb, and move all hotkey (including TAB, '12345,F-keys) to the right side? So you can continue to use the mouse with your main hand...
On December 07 2008 00:18 Cascade wrote: Sorry, just an observation:
You say that the hotkeys will be customisable. Possibly not CTRL and SHIFT though. But why change hand when you can just use the CTRL and SHIFT on the right side of the keyboard with your thumb, and move all hotkey (including TAB, '12345,F-keys) to the right side? So you can continue to use the mouse with your main hand...
All of this is based on the assumption that CTRL SHIFT TAB ` and the numbers will not be customizable.. I would be very surprised if this was possible in SC2. Interesting thought though.
Did I say something that made you think I thought CTRL and SHIFT etc would be customizable?
no you didnt say anything that made me think that. I was thinking all on my own... And before spending too much time on learning sc with the left hand, maye you should think over if your assumption is plausible: I don't know how the things actually works deep in the computer, but ctrl and shift (and alt) are special keys in the sence that you press other keys while they are pressed down. Not so for all the others. Because of that i think that if you can remap "a" in SC2, I dont see the reason why you couldnt remap tab, ' and F-keys as well. While I can understand that they keep ctrl, shift and alt, since they are in some sence different on a deeper level for the computer. And since ctrl and shift both are on right side of keyboard as well, and alt isnt used a lot in SC1, you can still get the handposition you describe for the left hand.
But yeah, that is my reaction... I don't really care about this issue a lot, so I guess I shouldnt even post in this thread as you requested. gl with the SC2 preparations.
On December 07 2008 02:41 Cascade wrote: no you didnt say anything that made me think that. I was thinking all on my own... And before spending too much time on learning sc with the left hand, maye you should think over if your assumption is plausible: I don't know how the things actually works deep in the computer, but ctrl and shift (and alt) are special keys in the sence that you press other keys while they are pressed down. Not so for all the others. Because of that i think that if you can remap "a" in SC2, I dont see the reason why you couldnt remap tab, ' and F-keys as well. While I can understand that they keep ctrl, shift and alt, since they are in some sence different on a deeper level for the computer. And since ctrl and shift both are on right side of keyboard as well, and alt isnt used a lot in SC1, you can still get the handposition you describe for the left hand.
But yeah, that is my reaction... I don't really care about this issue a lot, so I guess I shouldnt even post in this thread as you requested. gl with the SC2 preparations.
I think you have some trouble understand the difference between a hotkey and keys such as TAB. CTRL etc... They are not hotkeys.
There has never been a wc3 key editor that allowed you to change those keys.. you could do it on an OS level but that would screw up a lot of other things..
As far as I know blizzard will be including hotkey remapping functionality in the game itself.. I doubt any tournaments will allow you to use 3rd party progs to edit these non-hotkeys and i certainly don't think blizzard is going to go that far with customization.
On December 07 2008 02:41 Cascade wrote: no you didnt say anything that made me think that. I was thinking all on my own... And before spending too much time on learning sc with the left hand, maye you should think over if your assumption is plausible: I don't know how the things actually works deep in the computer, but ctrl and shift (and alt) are special keys in the sence that you press other keys while they are pressed down. Not so for all the others. Because of that i think that if you can remap "a" in SC2, I dont see the reason why you couldnt remap tab, ' and F-keys as well. While I can understand that they keep ctrl, shift and alt, since they are in some sence different on a deeper level for the computer. And since ctrl and shift both are on right side of keyboard as well, and alt isnt used a lot in SC1, you can still get the handposition you describe for the left hand.
But yeah, that is my reaction... I don't really care about this issue a lot, so I guess I shouldnt even post in this thread as you requested. gl with the SC2 preparations.
I think you have some trouble understand the difference between a hotkey and keys such as TAB. CTRL etc... They are not hotkeys.
There has never been a wc3 key editor that allowed you to change those keys.. you could do it on an OS level but that would screw up a lot of other things..
As far as I know blizzard will be including hotkey remapping functionality in the game itself.. I doubt any tournaments will allow you to use 3rd party progs to edit these non-hotkeys and i certainly don't think blizzard is going to go that far with customization.
Anyways.. thanks for posting.
Did you even read what he said? It was the exact same thing you just replied with...
IMO it seems stupid to completely change the way you use the mouse and keyboard on the off-chance that this setup might benefit you in SC2 which is still god knows how far off.
On December 07 2008 02:41 Cascade wrote: no you didnt say anything that made me think that. I was thinking all on my own... And before spending too much time on learning sc with the left hand, maye you should think over if your assumption is plausible: I don't know how the things actually works deep in the computer, but ctrl and shift (and alt) are special keys in the sence that you press other keys while they are pressed down. Not so for all the others. Because of that i think that if you can remap "a" in SC2, I dont see the reason why you couldnt remap tab, ' and F-keys as well. While I can understand that they keep ctrl, shift and alt, since they are in some sence different on a deeper level for the computer. And since ctrl and shift both are on right side of keyboard as well, and alt isnt used a lot in SC1, you can still get the handposition you describe for the left hand.
But yeah, that is my reaction... I don't really care about this issue a lot, so I guess I shouldnt even post in this thread as you requested. gl with the SC2 preparations.
I think you have some trouble understand the difference between a hotkey and keys such as TAB. CTRL etc... They are not hotkeys.
There has never been a wc3 key editor that allowed you to change those keys.. you could do it on an OS level but that would screw up a lot of other things..
As far as I know blizzard will be including hotkey remapping functionality in the game itself.. I doubt any tournaments will allow you to use 3rd party progs to edit these non-hotkeys and i certainly don't think blizzard is going to go that far with customization.
Anyways.. thanks for posting.
Did you even read what he said? It was the exact same thing you just replied with...
IMO it seems stupid to completely change the way you use the mouse and keyboard on the off-chance that this setup might benefit you in SC2 which is still god knows how far off.
Man are you kidding me? His entire posts discusses the possibility of using your left hand on keyboard on the right side of the alphabet area and remapping TAB and ` and the numbers and F-keys over to the right side as well.
My post was informing that there is no indication there will be a way to legitimately remap those necessary keys on to the right side of the keyboard.
Also it's not an "off-chance", for rhetorical purposes I'm kind of curious if you are a creationist or if you believe in evolution.
The way blizzard designs it's games to be played is not going to change from game to game(if its same genre) rather than change, we have witnessed, and will continue to witness an evolution, not a complete change.
If something worked well in wc3 you can bet they will keep it. Having played SC2 and followed it quite closely, there is absolutely no indication that blizzard will be making any kind of dramatic change from the conclusions they made in WC3.
You also said it "might benefit", as though whether or not it will help is some abstract reality that cannot be theorized about today. Basically that's what my thread is, a theory... Maybe I'm missing something really important but you have brought absolutely nothing to the table. If you have a counter argument then state it, but don't use stupid words like "might" and "off-chance" as though there is not enough in front of us for us to be able to draw reasonable and reliable conclusions.
On December 07 2008 04:18 Xeris wrote: have you played SC2? as far as I know hotkeys were not customizable and I played about 50-60 games of it O_O;
Yeah I mentioned that I've played it in my post.. I won't even ask you if you thought the builds we played were fully functional because that's so rediculous I would sound rude, I really just don't understand your post at all.
On December 07 2008 02:41 Cascade wrote: no you didnt say anything that made me think that. I was thinking all on my own... And before spending too much time on learning sc with the left hand, maye you should think over if your assumption is plausible: I don't know how the things actually works deep in the computer, but ctrl and shift (and alt) are special keys in the sence that you press other keys while they are pressed down. Not so for all the others. Because of that i think that if you can remap "a" in SC2, I dont see the reason why you couldnt remap tab, ' and F-keys as well. While I can understand that they keep ctrl, shift and alt, since they are in some sence different on a deeper level for the computer. And since ctrl and shift both are on right side of keyboard as well, and alt isnt used a lot in SC1, you can still get the handposition you describe for the left hand.
But yeah, that is my reaction... I don't really care about this issue a lot, so I guess I shouldnt even post in this thread as you requested. gl with the SC2 preparations.
I think you have some trouble understand the difference between a hotkey and keys such as TAB. CTRL etc... They are not hotkeys.
There has never been a wc3 key editor that allowed you to change those keys.. you could do it on an OS level but that would screw up a lot of other things..
As far as I know blizzard will be including hotkey remapping functionality in the game itself.. I doubt any tournaments will allow you to use 3rd party progs to edit these non-hotkeys and i certainly don't think blizzard is going to go that far with customization.
Anyways.. thanks for posting.
Did you even read what he said? It was the exact same thing you just replied with...
IMO it seems stupid to completely change the way you use the mouse and keyboard on the off-chance that this setup might benefit you in SC2 which is still god knows how far off.
Man are you kidding me? His entire posts discusses the possibility of using your left hand on keyboard on the right side of the alphabet area and remapping TAB and ` and the numbers and F-keys over to the right side as well.
My post was informing that there is no indication there will be a way to legitimately remap those necessary keys on to the right side of the keyboard.
Also it's not an "off-chance", for rhetorical purposes I'm kind of curious if you are a creationist or if you believe in evolution.
The way blizzard designs it's games to be played is not going to change from game to game(if its same genre) rather than change, we have witnessed, and will continue to witness an evolution, not a complete change.
If something worked well in wc3 you can bet they will keep it. Having played SC2 and followed it quite closely, there is absolutely no indication that blizzard will be making any kind of dramatic change from the conclusions they made in WC3.
You also said it "might benefit", as though whether or not it will help is some abstract reality that cannot be theorized about today. Basically that's what my thread is, a theory... Maybe I'm missing something really important but you have brought absolutely nothing to the table. If you have a counter argument then state it, but don't use stupid words like "might" and "off-chance" as though there is not enough in front of us for us to be able to draw reasonable and reliable conclusions.
lol what? Why are you so sure this will actually help? For starters you're giving up an entire lifetime of experience using the mouse in your dominant hand, for better positioning on the keyboard. That alone is going to be enough to turn off 99.99% of the people who will read this. You keep mentioning how these systems are in wc3, does anyone use this setup in warcraft 3? If it was that much better I'm sure at least a small % of the players would use it.
And I use phrases like 'might benefit' and 'off chance' because you have no idea if months down the line this will even benefit you. Until SC2 comes out and you try this, its all theory, so in the mean time stop being so defensive when not everyone agrees with some theory out of left field to change the hand you use your mouse with.
Also it's not an "off-chance", for rhetorical purposes I'm kind of curious if you are a creationist or if you believe in evolution.
I really dont understand how using the keyboard with the right hand is better than the left hand. I think it's really tedious to press alt+tab+shift+ctrl with your right hand thumb and all the other keys feel alot harder to press too.
I think people should just try to practice more instead of using their time on these pointless theories, that's the best way to gain an edge over your opponent.
On December 07 2008 06:04 rkarhu wrote: I really dont understand how using the keyboard with the right hand is better than the left hand. I think it's really tedious to press alt+tab+shift+ctrl with your right hand thumb and all the other keys feel alot harder to press too.
I think people should just try to practice more instead of using their time on these pointless theories, that's the best way to gain an edge over your opponent.
Exactly what I was thinking the whole time i read this. If you have the time to completely retrain yourself how to control a mouse/keyboard with the opposite hands, why not just spend the time to get your BOs down and shit. Unless you're already at your absolute peak and the only thing holding you back is your left hand being clumsy on the keyboard, then maybe...
On December 07 2008 06:04 rkarhu wrote: I really dont understand how using the keyboard with the right hand is better than the left hand. I think it's really tedious to press alt+tab+shift+ctrl with your right hand thumb and all the other keys feel alot harder to press too.
I think people should just try to practice more instead of using their time on these pointless theories, that's the best way to gain an edge over your opponent.
Do you even realize you already use your thumb for B and V in starcraft.. that's the main reason why lefties were handicapped in SC.
Using your thumb for CTRL and SHIFT is no different so you cant say its tedious. When you say something "feels harder" on something you've never done it's a given and of no consequence because a person will get used to it.
And I do play a lot, I was #1 on WC3 ladder last season for most of it up until the invitational ladder phase ended, I like many others had to play 30+ games a day to make the invitational ladder and I played almost as much last iccup season. Obviously any theories like this aren't worth anything if you don't play enough to be competitive.
On December 07 2008 06:04 rkarhu wrote: I really dont understand how using the keyboard with the right hand is better than the left hand. I think it's really tedious to press alt+tab+shift+ctrl with your right hand thumb and all the other keys feel alot harder to press too.
I think people should just try to practice more instead of using their time on these pointless theories, that's the best way to gain an edge over your opponent.
Exactly what I was thinking the whole time i read this. If you have the time to completely retrain yourself how to control a mouse/keyboard with the opposite hands, why not just spend the time to get your BOs down and shit. Unless you're already at your absolute peak and the only thing holding you back is your left hand being clumsy on the keyboard, then maybe...
Assuming I want to be competitive which I already mentioned.. mass gaming and traditional practice is a given.. I do those things already and am going to do them infinitely harder when sc2 beta starts. We are in a unique position were we know so much about this game that isn't out yet and have the opportunity to prepare.
You said if someone is at their peak then it might be helpful, so given that we have this time to prepare why not do it now? If you are already a very strong competitive player then you cannot switch because you will lose all this time relearning things. But being that the game hasn't come out yet now is the only time to re-optimize things that take any significant amount of time to learn.
On December 07 2008 06:04 rkarhu wrote: I really dont understand how using the keyboard with the right hand is better than the left hand. I think it's really tedious to press alt+tab+shift+ctrl with your right hand thumb and all the other keys feel alot harder to press too.
I think people should just try to practice more instead of using their time on these pointless theories, that's the best way to gain an edge over your opponent.
Exactly what I was thinking the whole time i read this. If you have the time to completely retrain yourself how to control a mouse/keyboard with the opposite hands, why not just spend the time to get your BOs down and shit. Unless you're already at your absolute peak and the only thing holding you back is your left hand being clumsy on the keyboard, then maybe...
Assuming I want to be competitive which I already mentioned.. mass gaming and traditional practice is a given.. I do those things already and am going to do them infinitely harder when sc2 beta starts. We are in a unique position were we know so much about this game that isn't out yet and have the opportunity to prepare.
You said if someone is at their peak then it might be helpful, so given that we have this time to prepare why not do it now? If you are already a very strong competitive player then you cannot switch because you will lose all this time relearning things. But being that the game hasn't come out yet now is the only time to re-optimize things that take any significant amount of time to learn.
I can say the same exact thing to you. You seem to want to put alot of time into SC2, say 6 months down the road you find theres a problem with this way of using the keyboard, you will have just wasted however many months you spent totally relearning how to physically play SC.
It seems like too drastic of a measure to take for something that hasnt been proven to actually be better. And my point wasn't that a change like this should only be attempted by the pros, my point was that until you are at the pro level, there's much more significant things to be correcting then dealing with something like this.
Doing this is passive.. it's not like it takes time away from other things.. After 4 days I can already competently play SC and WC.. I'm not as fast but I will be very soon.
Also in your first paragraph you again talk about possible problems as though you cannot think it out and determine if that will be the case. Anyways there are already left handed progamers currently without custom keys playing on the brutal default settings..
But seriously you talk about problems like they are this mythic thing that will suddenly come out of nowhere.. don't ever aspire to become a scientist.
Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while.
On December 07 2008 08:43 erin[go]bragh wrote: Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while.
Yeah definitely part of it is that pinky fingers aren't as strong but I think even if like yourself a person has a well trained pinky finger, in order to push TAB and ` with it, you actually have use muscles in your wrist and arm which is obviously far from optimal.
It's kind of like why having a monitor over 22' is bad, if the screen is so big that you actually have to use your neck muscles to view corners of it instead of having the whole thing covered with just your eyes, it slows you down.
I'm sure some WC3 players use their middle fingers for tab, you are able to do that without moving the wrist but it's a little awkward imo
I think the bottom line of my argument is how many useful keys you are in range of when your hand is in its natural position.. because never having to stray far from that will speed a player up considerably.
When your right hand is in its natural position it makes a backwards C shape.. which is also the shape the keys you need access to on the keyboard makes... just hold your right hand up to this picture.
Now try it with your left and try to maintain easy access to `TAB SHIFT CTRL all at the same time. As far as I can tell it can't be done, the one thing you do gain with the left hand is easy access to B and V which as discussed before is going to be irrelevant for SC2
Anyways I realize you weren't disagreeing with me enough to warrant all of this convincing so sorry lol... I am still in debate mode from the previous posts.
I really did appreciate your posting style after most of page 1. And yes it really is fun relearning everything, it gets easier pretty quickly but I still find myself going for the mouse with my right hand a couple times a day.
On December 07 2008 08:43 erin[go]bragh wrote: Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while.
Yeah definitely part of it is that pinky fingers aren't as strong but I think even if like yourself a person has a well trained pinky finger, in order to push TAB and ` with it, you actually have use muscles in your wrist and arm which is obviously far from optimal.
Lol there are no muscles in your fingers. Please don't pull facts out of your ass.
(to be accurate, no muscles originating solely in the finger)
You bolded me saying that you have to use muscles in your wrist and arm to use your pinky to push TAB On what planet does that count as me saying that there muscles in your finger?
Even if you didn't make yourself look like an idiot and respond to something that never happened... how on earth do you make such an off topic post.. what the fuck is going on, I don't understand how humans are capable of acting like this..
if it works for you then go at it. feels like people here are somewhat criticizing a 'cripple' for using whatever functionality he has left. if by doing this switching makes for better ass-raping sc skills, by all means.
i on the other hand don't need no stinkin' custom hotkeys--my left can do everything.
On December 07 2008 11:09 mmgoose wrote: if it works for you then go at it. feels like people here are somewhat criticizing a 'cripple' for using whatever functionality he has left. if by doing this switching makes for better ass-raping sc skills, by all means.
i on the other hand don't need no stinkin' custom hotkeys--my left can do everything.
Heh, that's like a tennis pro saying he doesn't need new racquets and that he will use old wooden ones.
Better setup raises your potential.. but anyways thanks for the support
You bolded me saying that you have to use muscles in your wrist and arm to use your pinky to push TAB On what planet does that count as me saying that there muscles in your finger?
Even if you didn't make yourself look like an idiot and respond to something that never happened... how on earth do you make such an off topic post.. what the fuck is going on, I don't understand how humans are capable of acting like this..
I don't get it.
In your post you said that using muscles in your arm and wrist to move pinky was far from optimal. Ok, I could have been wrong if you mean that "Humans should evolve muscles in their pinkys in order to avoid having to use the far from optimal muscles in their arm and wrist" Is that what you meant then? I'm sorry if it is, because then you are ridiculously stupid.
And it really is you just making yourself look more stupid by not even understanding the implications of your own post, let alone mine. I mean really, please learn to read.
Edit: If you still can't read between the lines, then let me lay it out for you:
You have to use muscles in you arm and wrist to move ANY finger. I still don't understand your post.
Oh I didn't mean use the muscles that control your pinky, I meant actually having to move your arm/wrist/hand so that your pinky is in a position where it can reach tab..
Maybe it's my fault for not being clear, regardless your post still doesn't accomplish anything and I don't understand why you made it other than make some irrelevant observation that maybe some people might not know AKA being a smartass..
I think if you had actually been reading what I'm saying instead of looking through my post for something that isn't right so you can correct it you might have realized that I meant move your arm/wrist because it's pretty obviously that you need to do that in order to hit tab with your pinky.
I think the mouse hand is just as important or more important than the keyboard hand, and having to retrain yourself to be fast and coordinated with your left hand is not worth the easier hotkeys.
On December 07 2008 08:43 erin[go]bragh wrote: Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while.
Yeah definitely part of it is that pinky fingers aren't as strong but I think even if like yourself a person has a well trained pinky finger, in order to push TAB and ` with it, you actually have use muscles in your wrist and arm which is obviously far from optimal.
It's kind of like why having a monitor over 22' is bad, if the screen is so big that you actually have to use your neck muscles to view corners of it instead of having the whole thing covered with just your eyes, it slows you down.
I'm sure some WC3 players use their middle fingers for tab, you are able to do that without moving the wrist but it's a little awkward imo
I think the bottom line of my argument is how many useful keys you are in range of when your hand is in its natural position.. because never having to stray far from that will speed a player up considerably.
When your right hand is in its natural position it makes a backwards C shape.. which is also the shape the keys you need access to on the keyboard makes... just hold your right hand up to this picture.
Now try it with your left and try to maintain easy access to `TAB SHIFT CTRL all at the same time. As far as I can tell it can't be done, the one thing you do gain with the left hand is easy access to B and V which as discussed before is going to be irrelevant for SC2
Anyways I realize you weren't disagreeing with me enough to warrant all of this convincing so sorry lol... I am still in debate mode from the previous posts.
I really did appreciate your posting style after most of page 1. And yes it really is fun relearning everything, it gets easier pretty quickly but I still find myself going for the mouse with my right hand a couple times a day.
On December 07 2008 12:53 nevake wrote: I think the mouse hand is just as important or more important than the keyboard hand, and having to retrain yourself to be fast and coordinated with your left hand is not worth the easier hotkeys.
Yeah absolutely, this is definitely the question, whether or not it's worth it. I read an article about a woman who switched hands because of pain and she said that after as little as month she felt left dominant.. and I know I am using the mouse a lot more than she did.
The one good thing is you get to shed all those awful habits you had because during the time were you are greatly slowed down you would be executing your bad habits slower and can catch yourself.. but I've found that some of the bad habits I just don't do any more at all and I really don't think they will come back. It's nice starting from scratch with the actual intention of creating an design/execution scheme for every genre of action in RTS games.
It's been 4-5 days now and I'm still improving really rapidly so it's hard to say when it will begin to plateau but it's quite interesting anyways.
On December 07 2008 08:43 erin[go]bragh wrote: Forgive me if I'm missing something and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that a lot of your reasoning for this switch seems to stem from your pinky being unable to press keys like TAB,`,ect. as reliably as your other fingers. Wouldn't it be more plausible to say...train dexterity in your pinky finger, rather than trying to relearn all the years of muscle memory you have in both your hands?
Maybe its because I play a lot of guitar and piano, both of which require better than average pinky dexterity, but that little finger of mine can easily handle all the keys on the left side of the keyboard at any sort of speed or any kind of pattern plausible for SC2 gameplay (although I use my pinky's..."knuckle bone" I guess you would call it, for Ctrl.) This gives my longer fingers free reign over the right side of the keyboard.
Just a thought, and again I'm sorry if I missed some sort of bigger picture.
And for the record, I do think this is a pretty awesome idea. If I weren't so lazy, I'd consider trying this, just because it seems like a fun and challenging thing to do. And hey, it's always nice to break free from the mold every once in a while.
Yeah definitely part of it is that pinky fingers aren't as strong but I think even if like yourself a person has a well trained pinky finger, in order to push TAB and ` with it, you actually have use muscles in your wrist and arm which is obviously far from optimal.
It's kind of like why having a monitor over 22' is bad, if the screen is so big that you actually have to use your neck muscles to view corners of it instead of having the whole thing covered with just your eyes, it slows you down.
I'm sure some WC3 players use their middle fingers for tab, you are able to do that without moving the wrist but it's a little awkward imo
I think the bottom line of my argument is how many useful keys you are in range of when your hand is in its natural position.. because never having to stray far from that will speed a player up considerably.
When your right hand is in its natural position it makes a backwards C shape.. which is also the shape the keys you need access to on the keyboard makes... just hold your right hand up to this picture.
Now try it with your left and try to maintain easy access to `TAB SHIFT CTRL all at the same time. As far as I can tell it can't be done, the one thing you do gain with the left hand is easy access to B and V which as discussed before is going to be irrelevant for SC2
Anyways I realize you weren't disagreeing with me enough to warrant all of this convincing so sorry lol... I am still in debate mode from the previous posts.
I really did appreciate your posting style after most of page 1. And yes it really is fun relearning everything, it gets easier pretty quickly but I still find myself going for the mouse with my right hand a couple times a day.
dude use your ring finger to push tab and ` dur
It moves your hand out of position.. it's not as good and that wasn't my only point anyways.
You're going to sacrifice so much mouse accuracy switching mouse hands, though. That in and of itself is a VERY IMPORTANT skill that i'm not very good at even with my right hand.
On December 07 2008 14:03 PH wrote: You're going to sacrifice so much mouse accuracy switching mouse hands, though. That in and of itself is a VERY IMPORTANT skill that i'm not very good at even with my right hand.
Yeah again this is the question, it might be difficult to make up for years of experience.
My right hand was VERY fast and well developed as I spend a lot of time training it with games like this:
On December 07 2008 06:04 rkarhu wrote: I really dont understand how using the keyboard with the right hand is better than the left hand. I think it's really tedious to press alt+tab+shift+ctrl with your right hand thumb and all the other keys feel alot harder to press too.
I think people should just try to practice more instead of using their time on these pointless theories, that's the best way to gain an edge over your opponent.
Do you even realize you already use your thumb for B and V in starcraft.. that's the main reason why lefties were handicapped in SC.
Err... I really don't use my left thumb for anything in SC (except pressing space), I press b and v with my index finger (not the "optimal" perhaps, but definitely the optimal for ME). Having said that, I really think that while repositioning your hand might work for you, it's definitely not worth it for 99,9 % of the players as it feels forced and artificial. Like all things in life, this is highly individualized (not sure of the word).
But GL in the effort (and tone down the hostility a bit) .
if you're removing hindering keys, make sure to remove F1 too. It's one of the most mishit keys (if you use location hotkeys/want to cancel something using escape you can easily touch it)
On December 07 2008 08:23 inReacH wrote: Doing this is passive.. it's not like it takes time away from other things.. After 4 days I can already competently play SC and WC.. I'm not as fast but I will be very soon.
Also in your first paragraph you again talk about possible problems as though you cannot think it out and determine if that will be the case. Anyways there are already left handed progamers currently without custom keys playing on the brutal default settings..
But seriously you talk about problems like they are this mythic thing that will suddenly come out of nowhere.. don't ever aspire to become a scientist.
Lol what is with this attitude dude? That's like the 3rd time you've taken a personal shot at me because I pointed out a fault of your idea.
There's a reason there's such a thing called UNFORESEEN PROBLEMS. Because you don't fucking forsee them. I shouldn't become a scientist? What are you fucking talking about. Are you seriously not even open to the idea that upon further use of this setup you may run into some problems you didn't even think of? I'm not suggesting that a warp gate to another dimension will open up in your bedroom because you use the keyboard a different way, but maybe, JUST MAYBE, it will be harder to do other things in the game.
You come up with an idea quoting a mechanic used in WC3, but do anyone WC3 players use this? Don't you think if it was really that good of an idea, someone would have done it in that game.
Next time you are facing critcism of an idea, don't lash out at the people doing it, it just makes you look like an asshole.
On December 08 2008 07:48 inReacH wrote: Your posts just seem quite poorly thought out, as though someone who is already pro can afford to handicap themselves at that time.
How you use your keyboard is a foundation, before the game is released is the only time decisions like this can be made.
Sorry if I got too personal but it's v frusterating.
lol wut. You are going to decide the foundation of the game before it is release? Well, Blizzard decided the foundation of TvP before it was released and you know what that was? Biomech.
That's what happens when you decide the foundation of something before it has even been played on a large scale. You are really just taking personal shots at people criticizing you in a theorycrafting thread with no real valid base.
On December 08 2008 07:48 inReacH wrote: Your posts just seem quite poorly thought out, as though someone who is already pro can afford to handicap themselves at that time.
How you use your keyboard is a foundation, before the game is released is the only time decisions like this can be made.
Sorry if I got too personal but it's v frusterating.
lol wut. You are going to decide the foundation of the game before it is release? Well, Blizzard decided the foundation of TvP before it was released and you know what that was? Biomech.
That's what happens when you decide the foundation of something before it has even been played on a large scale. You are really just taking personal shots at people criticizing you in a theorycrafting thread with no real valid base.
On December 08 2008 07:48 inReacH wrote: Your posts just seem quite poorly thought out, as though someone who is already pro can afford to handicap themselves at that time.
How you use your keyboard is a foundation, before the game is released is the only time decisions like this can be made.
Sorry if I got too personal but it's v frusterating.
For the 5th time. My point was that there are so many other things that people can improve on without the stress of relearning to use the mouse/keyboard, it seems like too much trouble. My point wasn't that a pro could afford to handicap himself, it was that I think this would only be a realistic way to improve if the only thing holding them back was the way they use the keyboard/mouse.
It's like, why go take lessons from Roger Federer if you are a beginning tennis player, when you would gain just as much just learning and improving the basics of your game from some local instructor. It just seems like overkill.
It would take a really dedicated person to do this specifically for starcraft, maybe 2-3 weeks at the shortest to get back around to the same level of proficiency with the mouse as before. And I'd argue you could improve your SC game more by spending those 2-3 weeks getting down to the nitty gritty details in your BOs and just general mechanics.
Sorry if I seemed lazy by saying there may be unforeseen problems with this, but I didn't really rack my brain thinking of possible ways this would be a detriment. But you really never know all the possible problems with something until you try it extensively. For all I know 3-4 months from now this will be fantastic for you. And for all you know in that same time you could find it very irritating to use.
For example, I just tried holding my hands that way for a few seconds. Do you find it annoying to use the 5-0 hotkeys with your pinky? If I recall one of the main reasons of doing this was to have your stronger fingers around the more used keys.
On December 08 2008 07:48 inReacH wrote: Your posts just seem quite poorly thought out, as though someone who is already pro can afford to handicap themselves at that time.
How you use your keyboard is a foundation, before the game is released is the only time decisions like this can be made.
Sorry if I got too personal but it's v frusterating.
For the 5th time. My point was that there are so many other things that people can improve on without the stress of relearning to use the mouse/keyboard, it seems like too much trouble. My point wasn't that a pro could afford to handicap himself, it was that I think this would only be a realistic way to improve if the only thing holding them back was the way they use the keyboard/mouse.
It's like, why go take lessons from Roger Federer if you are a beginning tennis player, when you would gain just as much just learning and improving the basics of your game from some local instructor. It just seems like overkill.
It would take a really dedicated person to do this specifically for starcraft, maybe 2-3 weeks at the shortest to get back around to the same level of proficiency with the mouse as before. And I'd argue you could improve your SC game more by spending those 2-3 weeks getting down to the nitty gritty details in your BOs and just general mechanics.
Sorry if I seemed lazy by saying there may be unforeseen problems with this, but I didn't really rack my brain thinking of possible ways this would be a detriment. But you really never know all the possible problems with something until you try it extensively. For all I know 3-4 months from now this will be fantastic for you. And for all you know in that same time you could find it very irritating to use.
For example, I just tried holding my hands that way for a few seconds. Do you find it annoying to use the 5-0 hotkeys with your pinky? If I recall one of the main reasons of doing this was to have your stronger fingers around the more used keys.
It's not stressful it's fun and challenging and really satisfying to redo something a different way because you learn so much faster. It's not just a way to improve it's a fundamental thing that once is overcome will make learning everything else easier. Your tennis analogy is pretty poor.. a better one would be if Tennis 2 was coming out in 4 months and for some reason it was better to hold the racquet with your other hand and it takes by your account 2-3 weeks to learn it (though it will take a bit more) will it be worth it considering it will make learning and doing 50% of your game easier for the rest of your entire tennis career, would it be worth it? Again it's been only 5 days and I can already focus completely on my BO's or whatever because this change doesnt require focus, IT IS PASSIVE.
And FYI you won't need more than 5 numeral hotkeys for SC2 1units 2units 3 prod buildings 4 CC 5 tech buildings.
On December 08 2008 04:33 RaGe wrote: if you're removing hindering keys, make sure to remove F1 too. It's one of the most mishit keys (if you use location hotkeys/want to cancel something using escape you can easily touch it)
on topic: you're going too far imo
I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't add useful functionality to F1 in SC2, also I play some WC3 still so I need it there.
Also.. no jokes.. I like many others was sloppy with the F keys with my left hand but they are much easier to push when you KB with your right hand.
As for going to far.. I quit my job to practice for a game that isn't out yet and will be playing like 100 hours a week of sc2 so compared to those this is really nothing.
Definitely true that if I wasn't going all in in many other ways that there would be no point in this change. Thanks for posting though you are probably right..
All this is good, and I have been using a left handed mouse for years now, but I think I read an article talking about how progamers weren't allowed to remap their keys in matchups, I don't know if that is correct, I could use a confirmation on that.
Also, are there any left handed progamers out there right now? And is playing left handed really considered a blessing in regards to keymapping? I would love to know since I can't really see myself switching to playing right handed.
Also since StarCraft 2 will support remappable keys, will proleagues allow customized keybindings in competitive play? Either post or PM me if you know!
EPT![[image loading]](http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/559/dsc00210ie0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6097/dsc00205oi6.jpg)
gl with the SC2 preparations. 
![[image loading]](http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/623/rhkbmv6.jpg)
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