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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On August 23 2008 05:10 Chill wrote:
I want to talk about it fundamentally. Is Protoss a simpler race than Zerg? I think mechanically (or I thought before this thread was started) are simpler than Zerg, but the lack of scouting makes up for it. Now, is the deficiencies in scouting enough to make up for the simplcity in mechanics? Also, we can't forget the difference in tactics, Zerg has more mobility and map control while the Protoss has to forfeit it and keep their army all together.
Yo can't really look at these races as the sum of parts. It's not like "well fuck dude, he has archons but holmes over there has ultras and ultras > archons so z > p." It doesn't work like that. True balance has to consider every aspect of the matchup.
Bel that as it may, we're not going to solve it here. These people would rather float in the god damned air all day than get a true discussion going.
I don't think any race can be said to be mechanically simpler than another. They have their differences and are all pretty equally difficult. For instance, the amount of control you need to effectively use sair/reaver is ridiculously high and is by no means 1a2a3a. I mean sometimes even telling your reavers to just attack move on a sunken doesn't mean they won't walk in and get themselves killed. At the same time a zerg army can't 1a2a3a either, what with dodging storms, reavers, etc. In terms of the mechanics of micro, I think it just boils down to: zerg has to take care of his units otherwise they die to storms/scarabs and protoss has to take care of his units so they don't just get sniped without doing any damage. For the mechanics of macro, I think both races' methods of building units vary enough to warrant them incomparable.
And for zerg mobility and map control, I'm not sure you can always say that zerg has more. Protoss definitely have an advantage with air map control with enough corsairs. I don't know if you can say protoss has to keep their army together, since they can have their ground army and then a fleet of corsairs that go where they please.
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United Kingdom8629 Posts
Hey guys, I just sit, watch and laugh.
When I left BW a year ago (by the time Bisu had won the Starleague), everything was in normal.
Luna with LT were still the most played maps by huge margin and Protosses were ranting about the balance of the matchup, as they were for eight years before that. And look what is here now...
Its not Luna, LT or even Tau cross that is played. Now its Python, followed by Blue storm and the newer proleague maps that everyone deems the best. Whatever happened to the old classics, where balance of the universe (and Z a lil'> P imbalance) was in normal?
What I see now is FE, a build I have always ommited as boring and hard to learn on maps I mentioned, and ZERGS BITCHING ABOUT PROTOSSES and p players, the everbitching bastards of the past, have to defend the balance of Starcraft in forums like these.
I would never think that one year can change so much. Whats going to be next? unupgraded marines raping ultras when I come from next holiday?
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Question... If protoss is so imbalanced acording to the OP why is it that there is a D- protoss player?
Moreover, the fact that an average protoss player can pick-up pro player strats easier is true. WHY? Becouse they don't require as much speed and timing. On the other hand zerg requires a lot of speed especially macro when it comes to countering bisu build, but I don't see the better players whine, they do pick up strats and they have enough skill to counter. My only conclusion is that only noobs who never see the problem in their gameplay find another race imbalanced, since I have never encountered a decent player whine about how imbalanced the other race is.
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My question is, Gaetele.. what do u want from you opening this thread, to share your opinion?? When will you stop QQ? when will you learn blizzard wont get rid of 1 of the 3 races of a fabulous game? will you be happy when all games are z v t or z v z or t v t... is that what you want? i dont understand what your getting at... of course every races units have counters like Lings > Goons Hydras> over Lots and Goons imo. Lurkers> dominate Lots and so with 2 out of the 2 main units of a protoss army beat out what are we supposed to do without a little bit of harassment from sairs or some storm to lower zergs un-numberable amount of army?
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On August 23 2008 05:46 Kau wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 05:10 Chill wrote:
I want to talk about it fundamentally. Is Protoss a simpler race than Zerg? I think mechanically (or I thought before this thread was started) are simpler than Zerg, but the lack of scouting makes up for it. Now, is the deficiencies in scouting enough to make up for the simplcity in mechanics? Also, we can't forget the difference in tactics, Zerg has more mobility and map control while the Protoss has to forfeit it and keep their army all together.
Yo can't really look at these races as the sum of parts. It's not like "well fuck dude, he has archons but holmes over there has ultras and ultras > archons so z > p." It doesn't work like that. True balance has to consider every aspect of the matchup.
Bel that as it may, we're not going to solve it here. These people would rather float in the god damned air all day than get a true discussion going. I don't think any race can be said to be mechanically simpler than another. They have their differences and are all pretty equally difficult. For instance, the amount of control you need to effectively use sair/reaver is ridiculously high and is by no means 1a2a3a. I mean sometimes even telling your reavers to just attack move on a sunken doesn't mean they won't walk in and get themselves killed. At the same time a zerg army can't 1a2a3a either, what with dodging storms, reavers, etc. In terms of the mechanics of micro, I think it just boils down to: zerg has to take care of his units otherwise they die to storms/scarabs and protoss has to take care of his units so they don't just get sniped without doing any damage. For the mechanics of macro, I think both races methods of buildings units vary enough to warrant them incomparable. And for zerg mobility and map control, I'm not sure you can always say that zerg has more. Protoss definitely have an advantage with air map control with enough corsairs. I don't know if you can say protoss has to keep their army together, since they can have their ground army and then a fleet of corsairs that go where they please.
Chocolate. I spit out so much of my hot chocolate when I read this. Protoss armies just
rain all over you. A-move, ez. I mean I understand your point.
Some protoss' don't just a-move, but we are talking low level games here. You can't
stay b level off of A-move, but you can definitely dominate D ranks. The protoss strategy is pretty
dry, 1a2a3a. you don't need gosu reaver sair control to beat a C- player at all.
and some people just turtle until carriers, and win any matchup they're in.
others might use the right build order for a match-up, but a D level toss doesn't need to.
feel what I'm saying? The problem is people are comparing foreigners to pros.
The skill gap is too huge to do this. It is like comparing combatex to NaDa... don't you see the
pain in that statement?
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I think Chill and Gaetele both make some fine points, while the rest of the users are just contributing to the lulz. But really, the thread was epic.
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and DoctorHelvetica, you're doing it wrong... you're not allowed to cheat with line breaks
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Calgary25993 Posts
On August 23 2008 05:54 azndsh wrote:
and DoctorHelvetica, you're doing it wrong... you're not allowed to cheat with line breaks
Seriously. The hardest part is formatting it properly while making it read like a sentence. I had to add in so many "I think", "I really think" "I truly do think" depending on the situation. Hahah was good times.
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On August 23 2008 05:55 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 05:54 azndsh wrote:
and DoctorHelvetica, you're doing it wrong... you're not allowed to cheat with line breaks Seriously. The hardest part is formatting it properly while making it read like a sentence. I had to add in so many "I think", "I really think" "I truly do think" depending on the situation. Hahah was good times.
UGN. ME TO STUPID FORMAT RIGHT ME USE LINE BREAK
UGGA UGGA
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lol Wondering what the fuck "BEL" was the whole time
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*opens mouth, says nothing*
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sure PvZ is imba watch Jaedong play...
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On August 23 2008 06:13 Prince18 wrote:
sure PvZ is imba watch Jaedong play...
5/5 would lol again
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On August 23 2008 05:54 azndsh wrote:
and DoctorHelvetica, you're doing it wrong... you're not allowed to cheat with line breaks
I don't get it, I'm using Firefox. What am I doing wrong?
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For the lazy:
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote:
Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it
is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even
a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the
story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but
all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one.
About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs.
How is this even remotely balanced!?
On August 23 2008 02:30 Chill wrote:
My thoughts are pretty back and forth on this issue; I mean, although I usually have been joking all my
life, Protoss is no easier than the other races. I really do believe that with the final changes Brood War
got in 1.08, all races have the same potential and it comes down to player error. Remember how PvZ
flipped its imbalance after FE and Bisu build became standard? I think many strategies have really
turned the game around multiple times, as well as player execution. I think a really big
upside to this thread is that it's going to make people finally put their blame of maps and imbalance
down and focus on their own mistakes.
On August 23 2008 02:39 Gaetele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 02:31 Phoned wrote:
how are you C if you lose to D- protoss? Only play TvZ and ZvZ? I wouldn't say you are a full-fledged C if that's the case. Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup? I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P? Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!) Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 02:31 raiame wrote:
If he uses his tech you should use your tech.
Use mobility to your advantage. Harass him. Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
On August 23 2008 02:59 Chill wrote:
I'll answer that, even though I don't play Protoss. There are certain ZvP timings you have to get used to;
tell yourself when you're going to be moving out or staying defensive. I think the problem might be that
you haven't gotten used to playing defensively at certain points and aggressively at others. I do think
how you do this basically shapes your success at ZvP. You can't mindlessly a-move units out (though
I often advocate that) because you'll get cut up by storms and cannons. During TSL this is how I
became a fairly decent ZvT player, and I think it's some advice that anyone can apply to the game. Yep
the main thing to remember here is to play defensively with Lurkers, treat your Scourge like they're a
Prince of Dubai, they are that important! Use the LurkerLing combination to defend; Scourge take care
of his Observers. The key is not to leave any part of your army isolated... I honestly do think that when
a Zerg army can flank it's the strongest army in the game, but I mean if you screw up and go noob
town on it and things come in piecemeal (spelling?) then that's obviously not going to work. It's just
called basic micro and tactics. -_- I think this should let you move to the late game, where Ultras can
bel enough to finish him with simple UltraLing. But remember you really cannot be a simple, mindless
air head with UltraLing in modern ZvP; use Defilers!
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Oh and if you lose to Protoss you suck, period. Protoss players aren't even good. PvP is by far my most successful match up on any server.
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there are a lot of words in this thread
i have read none of them
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EDIT: Sorry didnt read 8 pages of what i thought was a flame war >_>
edit again: O you guys were making a story! Cool read.
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EPT
