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United Kingdom1744 Posts
Wait. WAIT! I know what you're thinking, but look, I'm a Protoss main player too. I love seeing Protoss heroes go deep in tournaments. I was gutted when BeSt fell at the absolute final hurdle. I hate it when another hydra bust knocks out one of my favourite players, and yes I do think that doing so takes relatively less skill to do than it does to deflect.
I get all that, I really do. But nonetheless, I see the amount that people go on about balance this, balance that and I find myself thinking - who cares? Does it matter even a bit if one race is less likely to win than the others, as long as we still get exciting games and as long as they're still in with a decent shot (which truly I think Protoss players are)? A perfectly balanced game is one concept of what makes for an enjoyable tournament but honestly, it seems to me one of the less important dimensions as long as games and storylines are engaging.
Come on, who else thinks that actually it's all a bit of a storm in a teacup? It just doesn't seem to me that it matters very much to what makes Broodwar so great, in fact barely at all.
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I make a living out of it, so naturally, I care deeply!
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there are maps where Z destroys P and maps where P destroys Z
i think ASL22 showed that Z isn't the problem, soulkey is the problem... bro won 71% of the past 7 tournies... tourny winrate as high as FLaSh's TvX winrates
yeah the next best player is probably soma, but IMO we're just having a zerg equivalent of the era when boxer/nada/oov were reigning as bonjwas
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"Not giving a shit" is not exactly a way too show your passion for something
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On October 20 2026 17:45 Bonyth wrote:
I make a living out of it, so naturally, I care deeply!
Im curious how zerg winning 6 ASL has affected your earnings and just the struggle of playing vs zerg overall ? xD
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Good thought experiment.
I don't care about a true 33/33/33 balance. The game does not need to be "exactly" balanced. However, it is frustrating to see Protoss players get contained on 2 bases and starved out over and over and over again. It feels like 2 bases is barely enough resources for Protoss to get a 3rd... and right as protoss gets a 3rd (IF they can get it at all) their main runs out.... so protoss is often on 2 base eco until they... get a 4th? I dunno. It just feels like the PvZ matchup is stale...
EDIT: And what I mean by stale is... in TvP very rarely we see strategies like 1 factory hidden 3rd base, or bio/tank.... or in ZvT there's 2 hatch lurker, or TvZ 2 port wraith... these kinds of "not viable but viable" builds add excitement to the matchup. But PvZ it seems like the only variable is "one stargate or 2 stargates"... there's no real surprise curveball builds that are viable. I am saying this purely as a spectator... I don't play Z or P well (or T well but... I do play T)
Yes there's occasional 2 gate builds or nexus/gate/core late cannon greedy types of things... but it doesn't feel like Protoss has a wealth of options to deal with Zerg and it is frustrating as a viewer. I feel like the other matchups have a lot of viable paths to choose from.
EDIT 2: And what sucks about that is: PvZ/ZvP army clashes are super fun to watch. There's nothing like an even game between zealot/archon/HT/dragoon/reaver vs ultra/crackling/hydra/defiler... very mobile and frantic. Unfortunately 93% of the time we just watch Protoss get starved out on 2 bases...
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On October 20 2026 17:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2026 17:45 Bonyth wrote:
I make a living out of it, so naturally, I care deeply! Im curious how zerg winning 6 ASL has affected your earnings and just the struggle of playing vs zerg overall ? xD
zerg winning 6 ASL = imbalanced state of the game
imbalanced state of the game = i got eliminated in at least 1 BSL prematurely because of it; all simple.
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United Kingdom1744 Posts
On October 20 2026 18:34 Bonyth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2026 17:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 20 2026 17:45 Bonyth wrote:
I make a living out of it, so naturally, I care deeply! Im curious how zerg winning 6 ASL has affected your earnings and just the struggle of playing vs zerg overall ? xD zerg winning 6 ASL = imbalanced state of the game imbalanced state of the game = i got eliminated in at least 1 BSL prematurely because of it; all simple.
Do you make a living out of BW or do you play for some money sometimes? That's not meant to be a dick question, I'm honestly asking to clarify. I can see that if balance starts to push protoss players out of the game entirely then of course, that would be a salient problem. This doesn't seem to be the case in the KR scene, at least from the distance I'm at, where prize money is very little as I understand it, compared to successful streamer money.
On October 20 2026 18:00 Vasoline73 wrote:
Good thought experiment.
I don't care about a true 33/33/33 balance. The game does not need to be "exactly" balanced. However, it is frustrating to see Protoss players get contained on 2 bases and starved out over and over and over again. It feels like 2 bases is barely enough resources for Protoss to get a 3rd... and right as protoss gets a 3rd (IF they can get it at all) their main runs out.... so protoss is often on 2 base eco until they... get a 4th? I dunno. It just feels like the PvZ matchup is stale...
EDIT: And what I mean by stale is... in TvP very rarely we see strategies like 1 factory hidden 3rd base, or bio/tank.... or in ZvT there's 2 hatch lurker, or TvZ 2 port wraith... these kinds of "not viable but viable" builds add excitement to the matchup. But PvZ it seems like the only variable is "one stargate or 2 stargates"... there's no real surprise curveball builds that are viable. I am saying this purely as a spectator... I don't play Z or P well (or T well but... I do play T)
Yes there's occasional 2 gate builds or nexus/gate/core late cannon greedy types of things... but it doesn't feel like Protoss has a wealth of options to deal with Zerg and it is frustrating as a viewer. I feel like the other matchups have a lot of viable paths to choose from.
EDIT 2: And what sucks about that is: PvZ/ZvP army clashes are super fun to watch. There's nothing like an even game between zealot/archon/HT/dragoon/reaver vs ultra/crackling/hydra/defiler... very mobile and frantic. Unfortunately 93% of the time we just watch Protoss get starved out on 2 bases...
I do agree, and yet at the same time, what I want is to see P tighten up their play and be competitive, even if they don't win 50% against Zerg. I would be happy with P fighting from a bit of a disadvantage in the early game if they didn't just... die or starve, and could win maybe 40-45%. I suppose I don't believe that protoss players are performing at a level where their inability to make a dent in Z at the ASL level is all down to balance, and partly down to their needing to adjust to a meta which isn't favouring them. And that can be exciting, if it progresses. If it doesn't, yes, that's not very exciting.
On October 20 2026 17:46 golikasa wrote:
"Not giving a shit" is not exactly a way too show your passion for something
I've been around a very long time and I can in fact tell you, without a shadow of doubt, that not giving a shit about the irrelevant panic that constantly surrounds a certain corner of BW fandom is exactly what keeps things cooking along and keeps the game fun and interesting, and alive. I'm an autistic MF and I've spent plenty of time melting down about the prospect of BW's demise. But enjoying the game and engaging with it on a positive level is the only thing that's ever made a difference. And there was a time when I was able to make a real difference with that attitude.
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On October 20 2026 18:34 Bonyth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2026 17:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 20 2026 17:45 Bonyth wrote:
I make a living out of it, so naturally, I care deeply! Im curious how zerg winning 6 ASL has affected your earnings and just the struggle of playing vs zerg overall ? xD zerg winning 6 ASL = imbalanced state of the game imbalanced state of the game = i got eliminated in at least 1 BSL prematurely because of it; all simple.
but you've won more BSLs than soma and soulkey combined won ASLs xD
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Snow just 4:0'd Soma in sponsored match.
Game is balanced enough.
Instead of constant subjective opinions maybe it's better just to watch and enjoy the game.
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On October 20 2026 19:11 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2026 18:00 Vasoline73 wrote:
Good thought experiment.
I don't care about a true 33/33/33 balance. The game does not need to be "exactly" balanced. However, it is frustrating to see Protoss players get contained on 2 bases and starved out over and over and over again. It feels like 2 bases is barely enough resources for Protoss to get a 3rd... and right as protoss gets a 3rd (IF they can get it at all) their main runs out.... so protoss is often on 2 base eco until they... get a 4th? I dunno. It just feels like the PvZ matchup is stale...
EDIT: And what I mean by stale is... in TvP very rarely we see strategies like 1 factory hidden 3rd base, or bio/tank.... or in ZvT there's 2 hatch lurker, or TvZ 2 port wraith... these kinds of "not viable but viable" builds add excitement to the matchup. But PvZ it seems like the only variable is "one stargate or 2 stargates"... there's no real surprise curveball builds that are viable. I am saying this purely as a spectator... I don't play Z or P well (or T well but... I do play T)
Yes there's occasional 2 gate builds or nexus/gate/core late cannon greedy types of things... but it doesn't feel like Protoss has a wealth of options to deal with Zerg and it is frustrating as a viewer. I feel like the other matchups have a lot of viable paths to choose from.
EDIT 2: And what sucks about that is: PvZ/ZvP army clashes are super fun to watch. There's nothing like an even game between zealot/archon/HT/dragoon/reaver vs ultra/crackling/hydra/defiler... very mobile and frantic. Unfortunately 93% of the time we just watch Protoss get starved out on 2 bases... I do agree, and yet at the same time, what I want is to see P tighten up their play and be competitive, even if they don't win 50% against Zerg. I would be happy with P fighting from a bit of a disadvantage in the early game if they didn't just... die or starve, and could win maybe 40-45%. I suppose I don't believe that protoss players are performing at a level where their inability to make a dent in Z at the ASL level is all down to balance, and partly down to their needing to adjust to a meta which isn't favouring them. And that can be exciting, if it progresses. If it doesn't, yes, that's not very exciting.
Yeah for sure, I don't think that it can be proven the matchup is broken or that there's no innovation left. It has been interesting watching Pluto games where Stargate comes out a bit later... or even weird stuff like the 1 base carrier... yes Pluto has an ability to target weakened units perfectly that human players will never have, but it does make me wonder if there's build orders that Protoss can learn from or "make human viable"
I still watch the game so, obviously on a practical level I must believe PvZ is playable. Cheers.
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I am pretty sure Korean Protoss pros don't care ASL as much as we do.
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On October 20 2026 19:11 ImbaTosS wrote:
Do you make a living out of BW or do you play for some money sometimes? That's not meant to be a dick question, I'm honestly asking to clarify. I can see that if balance starts to push protoss players out of the game entirely then of course, that would be a salient problem. This doesn't seem to be the case in the KR scene, at least from the distance I'm at, where prize money is very little as I understand it, compared to successful streamer money.
1. Over the many years of my StarCraft if I didn't have its income, I would be in debt right now. Of course if I didn't have it, then I would have lived differently, so, not really easy to answer your question directly.
2. Game being slightly imbalanced may be discourging from climbing higher. I have more pressing issues like multi-tasking to work on, but having another wall in front of it, doesnt really motivate you (and by wall I mean other pro protosses trying and failing, despite having the biggest player pool of protosses).
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Croatia9571 Posts
I actually agree with you Elegant (hi btw!).
"Good" thing is that BW is not perfectly balanced (not sure how would you even measure this tbh), and I think this has played to its strengths and longevity. BW is balanced enough, which allows it to have a ridiculous amounts of variation and play styles (almost endless with new maps). And yes, the amount of exciting and fun games we're still seeing almost 30 years later is a testament to its greatness and possibly the most important thing that matters.
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Japan11901 Posts
BW is not perfectly balanced but what matters is that there is always the possibilty of counterplay.
(storms/carriers, hydra busts/dark swarm, tanks/mines beg to differ, I know)
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On October 20 2026 17:30 ImbaTosS wrote:
Wait. WAIT! I know what you're thinking, but look, I'm a Protoss main player too. I love seeing Protoss heroes go deep in tournaments. I was gutted when BeSt fell at the absolute final hurdle. I hate it when another hydra bust knocks out one of my favourite players, and yes I do think that doing so takes relatively less skill to do than it does to deflect.
I get all that, I really do. But nonetheless, I see the amount that people go on about balance this, balance that and I find myself thinking - who cares? Does it matter even a bit if one race is less likely to win than the others, as long as we still get exciting games and as long as they're still in with a decent shot (which truly I think Protoss players are)? A perfectly balanced game is one concept of what makes for an enjoyable tournament but honestly, it seems to me one of the less important dimensions as long as games and storylines are engaging.
Come on, who else thinks that actually it's all a bit of a storm in a teacup? It just doesn't seem to me that it matters very much to what makes Broodwar so great, in fact barely at all.
If there was no protoss pros because of balance you would care
So you care, it's just good enough right now you don't care much
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basically it wont matter until u stop seeing protoss players in tournaments, thats when itll matter
that could either happen from not being able to perform as well and go deep into tours or from lack of motivation to practice/play in tours altogether, theyre linked tho (that's why you might see 1-2 high lvl guys still go deep whereas theres no one performing behind them)
youre already starting to see a bit of it but imo it's still way too early to tell
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United States10579 Posts
On October 21 2026 02:44 TT1 wrote:
basically it wont matter until u stop seeing protoss players in tournaments, thats when itll matter
that could either happen from not being able to perform as well and go deep into tours or from lack of motivation to practice/play in tours altogether, theyre linked tho (that's why you might see 1-2 high lvl guys still go deep whereas theres no one performing behind them)
youre already starting to see a bit of it but imo it's still way too early to tell
Well, out of 28 players we're already down to 6 Protoss in the last 2 ASLs. We're... kind of getting there already. Unless the map pool dramatically changes to try to help Protoss next season, I think we'll still be around that 6 range +/- 1
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BW works in years/decades, not the last 2 ASLs
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EPT
