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On September 02 2024 16:09 angry_maia wrote:
One underrated aspect of Terran is that TvT is by far the lowest variance mirror match-up. Anyone can win or lose in PvP or ZvZ, and this means that if you play P or Z, 1/3 of your match-ups are quite volatile.
Furthermore, I think PvZ is quite volatile as well -- Z can always choose to gamble between 3-hatch hydra, 2-hatch muta, or even a ling bust, which makes it hard to consistently crush Z as P.
I'm not saying T is imba, I"m rather saying that with T, you can more reliably expect the best player to win (at a sufficiently high level).
Jaedong had almost a 90% winrate in ZvZ at his prime. Must have been 2008.
In my mind, Jaedong is absolutely a bonjwa. He and Flash were for very long a clear head above everyone else. And when they were going toe to toe, it was really hard to predict who would win.
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On September 04 2024 23:35 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2024 05:04 Simplistik wrote:
I kinda doubt it. Not even Jaedong made it to (the perhaps rather arbitrary) Bonjwa level... I think the only thing that stopped JD from being considered a bonjwa was the existence of flash lol. If flash didn't exist JD would have won at least 2-3 more titles and be the most successful progamer ever during the kespa era.
That sounds very plausible. Also Bisu might have picked up another title.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
Flash could have been a top 3 Protoss for sure, I’m not as confident he could do the same as Zerg.
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I've been watching a lot of artosis, and i suspect that flash would be BETTER if he was protoss. it sounds like he would be the third or maybe fourth smart player to ever play protoss. (Artosis said that only Rain and snow are smart, but i suspect he would give credit to bisu, not sure.)
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On September 04 2024 22:58 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2024 22:39 Piste wrote:On September 04 2024 18:52 Kraekkling wrote:
People have argued that Terran dominance in broodwar is not due to the fact that Terran is the best race, but people never argued that Zerg or Protoss is the best race. Who are these people? This is the first time I hear about this :0 Now that margin obviously can be overcome with skills, hence we can have things like a pro beating a B ranker with one hand. But at very top when everyone maxes out their skills, so there's less potential to overcome such margin and that's where we see the clearest impact of race power.
Why is that 'obvious' that this margin can be overcome with skill?
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On September 05 2024 08:12 zelevin wrote:
I've been watching a lot of artosis, and i suspect that flash would be BETTER if he was protoss. it sounds like he would be the third or maybe fourth smart player to ever play protoss. (Artosis said that only Rain and snow are smart, but i suspect he would give credit to bisu, not sure.)
The 3 Hatch Hydra alone is enough of a reason for Flash to not be better as Protoss. He could even be better than Bisu but he couldn't be better than his Terran version.
That aside, Rain is a bit overrated and is often used by Artosis as an example of a "what if" Protoss bonjwa. It's a way for him to say "Look. Protoss is not weak. They could have had a bonjwa had Rain decided to take the game seriously". Some people do the same thing with Jangbi too.
The best player is always the one on the bench. Truth remains that Rain won two major tournaments off the courtesy of PvP while his PvZ and PvT have never been as good as Bisu and Snow.
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On September 05 2024 09:26 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2024 08:12 zelevin wrote:
I've been watching a lot of artosis, and i suspect that flash would be BETTER if he was protoss. it sounds like he would be the third or maybe fourth smart player to ever play protoss. (Artosis said that only Rain and snow are smart, but i suspect he would give credit to bisu, not sure.) The 3 Hatch Hydra alone is enough of a reason for Flash to not be better as Protoss. He could even be better than Bisu but he couldn't be better than his Terran version. That aside, Rain is a bit overrated and is often used by Artosis as an example of a "what if" Protoss bonjwa. It's a way for him to say "Look. Protoss is not weak. They could have had a bonjwa had Rain decided to take the game seriously". Some people do the same thing with Jangbi too. The best player is always the one on the bench. Truth remains that Rain won two major tournaments off the courtesy of PvP while his PvZ and PvT have never been as good as Bisu and Snow.
We have to change the metrics. We're having this conversation based off of just two tournaments that happen a year, while ignoring an actual 99% of the pro competition that happens on yearly basis in terms of matches played. In the Kespa Era they didn't base the conversation on just two tournaments. They had way more offline tournaments back then, but do remember, online gaming back then wasn't even 10% as big as it is now. Streaming is big, online gaming is big. We should consider a bunch of the online tournaments and events as viable for the conversation of who is best and who isn't.
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Broodwar is balanced up to the maps. If one faction is disfavored, it's because we've chosen map pools that disfavor that faction.
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On September 05 2024 11:15 Severedevil wrote:
Broodwar is balanced up to the maps. If one faction is disfavored, it's because we've chosen map pools that disfavor that faction.
this is true. eloboard reflects this well with winrates over larger sample sizes. Current pool seems to be bad for zerg. We are more likely r butdm
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On September 05 2024 11:15 Severedevil wrote:
Broodwar is balanced up to the maps. If one faction is disfavored, it's because we've chosen map pools that disfavor that faction.
Agree. We talk of balance in a vacuum, while it only makes sense on a given map or set of maps.
In that regard, the game is not balanced, it is balanceable.
In the early days of competitive brood war, we used to play on island maps, maps with no second gas etc. Some matchups were really terrible. It’s only when discovered that Lost Temple had features that balanced the game - such as natural expansion, ramped main, accessible thirds etc… - that a relatively balanced meta emerged.
The other aspect is that the difficulty of each race varies with levels. Protoss is way easier than Terran at D level. But when we talk about elite players, it’s hard to know whether a race dominates because it has bigger talents or because of the map pool. I would love to see statistics at pro level from the Kespa era to now without including Flash for example.
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But in ASL we never have a protoss winner even with changing of map pools. The organizers need to choose protoss favored maps so a protoss can finally win
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EPT
