EPTZerg needs to get expansions ASAP which leaves them wide open to attacks at many places. That fact alone means Zerg requires an insane amount of multitasking compared to other races. The level of map awareness you need to avoid losing a base is ridiculous. Really, can you expect someone who is just learning to play to be able to get a third base and defend it to a Zealot or Marine attack (not even an all-in)?
Lets settle this ones and for all - Page 3
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cheesehuehue
Vatican City State90 Posts
Zerg needs to get expansions ASAP which leaves them wide open to attacks at many places. That fact alone means Zerg requires an insane amount of multitasking compared to other races. The level of map awareness you need to avoid losing a base is ridiculous. Really, can you expect someone who is just learning to play to be able to get a third base and defend it to a Zealot or Marine attack (not even an all-in)? | ||
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TMNT
3229 Posts
On March 29 2024 00:58 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Id place all three curves much closer near the end of that graph with protoss at top as SnOw. That's too much recency bias. As much as I like Snow, he only started to peak (online) somewhere around last year. And he hasn't had a winning record vs Soma, while Flash is still MIA. Also you need to factor in their age. Mini, Snow, Soma, and Royal have a huge benefit of being relatively younger than the rest of the bunch, while new bloods (who were born after 1995) are virtually nonexistent, so those 4 will keep their advantage forever. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16122 Posts
On March 29 2024 00:35 sophisticated wrote: So time passes faster for flash? Time stands still for Flash. | ||
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FinsT
32 Posts
On March 28 2024 22:55 BisuDagger wrote: If you had to 1v5 comp stomp, you’d pick Terran and spam tanks right. What’s your comp stomp race? Cause then I think that answers the easiest question. Answered that with very 1st post in this topic: dragoon spam. Tanks (and guarduans) can't hit air and comps make some air. Carriers and battlecruisers are slow, late and expensive. Dragoons, you can make legions of, and they are quite beefy, too. Put shield barreries here and there to quickly buff up damaged ones, and just keep going. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19367 Posts
On March 29 2024 18:18 FinsT wrote: Answered that with very 1st post in this topic: dragoon spam. Tanks (and guarduans) can't hit air and comps make some air. Carriers and battlecruisers are slow, late and expensive. Dragoons, you can make legions of, and they are quite beefy, too. Put shield barreries here and there to quickly buff up damaged ones, and just keep going. You can also fast DT and make an invisible wall at the natural while you tech to carriers  | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1727 Posts
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Smorrie
Netherlands2941 Posts
At intermediate levels Protoss still is the easiest as it relatively requires the least amount of multi tasking, APM & control to reach similar mmr levels. At higher levels Protoss still is the easiest as a lower mechanical skill level required is required & mismanagement often is a lot more forgiving. Terran has a lot more mechanical difficulties, even though playing T generally is very straightforward. Zerg is easily the hardest race to play. Aside of having to master muta control to be effective at higher levels, it's the only race that doesn't have straight forward macro mechanics (constantly having to balance larvas/drones/army production), the most amount of multi tasking is required & Zerg is a lot more sensitive to mismanagement, where small mistakes can lead to directly losing a game more often than the others. At pro level I suppose the differences are negligible. The easiest way for any player to achieve S rank? proxy gates. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1265 Posts
On March 29 2024 01:15 TMNT wrote: That's too much recency bias. As much as I like Snow, he only started to peak (online) somewhere around last year. And he hasn't had a winning record vs Soma, while Flash is still MIA. Also you need to factor in their age. Mini, Snow, Soma, and Royal have a huge benefit of being relatively younger than the rest of the bunch, while new bloods (who were born after 1995) are virtually nonexistent, so those 4 will keep their advantage forever. Snow has been the best online toss for the past three years almost. He has peaked higher than any other protoss. He is the benchmark. Soma was the benchmark for online zerg. Better than Soulkey. When flash played for 2 months last year he did a couple "anonymous" spon matches and he got destroyed by snow in addition to going 0-5 in "planned" ladder games. Flash Rusty is a valid argument however. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
never seen that with T or P... i blame zvz, and zvp free wins. also this: On March 28 2024 05:21 castleeMg wrote: I’d argue playing Zerg probably gives you the best chance of beating someone that is overall more skilled than you due to the all in potential it has early game. and this On March 28 2024 10:31 G5 wrote: I think Protoss is strategically harder than the other races, harder to win at the highest levels, less adaptable to maps than the other races, and overall the weakest race if everyone is playing properly. But at least we have that it's mechanically the easiest race to play. I'll take that and thank god for that fact. The muta micro argument is really bs imo, cause having decent muta micro is like knowing how to stop 2 gate zealot rush with dragoon micro, is basic to get out of the lower levels, ofc u can take that shit to prime JD level and just crush with micro, but arguing that one race is the most difficult cause relies on this particular skillset to survive a match up is basically describing StarCraft... u can't play high level protoss with scrub level reaver control and no protoss cries about having to learn reaver control or dragoon control... in fact u can play protoss with no reaver at all but is suboptimal, and if u're lossing to something unoptimal, u're trash. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3142 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States8066 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27015 Posts
Especially if we were to take a complete RTS virgin and have them start BW from scratch (poor bastard). They’ve quite beefy stock units which makes them a little more forgiving overall, less of them to actually control at times etc. Plus it’s simpler to just build probes, build gates and build stuff than juggling the Zerg’s drones or army macro cycles. Definitely also the most manly and cool race alongside their relative easiness. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5183 Posts
For example, hallucinating part of your army to lure enemy troops away to then attack the lesser reinforced army. Also, hallucinated units DO fight, but their more like a meat shield, so you could in a sense use them for damage buffers. Stuff like that. I don't think anyone has actually done the maths on that? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1265 Posts
On March 30 2024 19:06 Uldridge wrote: A hypothesis that might be tested is that because of their durability and strength, the explored space in finding solutions for the different matchups might be smaller, whether that is from actual builds, compositions, unit usage, micro. I'm not saying pro's haven't optimized micro, maybe they missed something else and are they stuck in a local optimum, instead of having found the actual optimum. For example, hallucinating part of your army to lure enemy troops away to then attack the lesser reinforced army. Also, hallucinated units DO fight, but their more like a meat shield, so you could in a sense use them for damage buffers. Stuff like that. I don't think anyone has actually done the maths on that? Halluci is kind of a waste in mass into mass attacks because storm exists. 4ht in a shuttle with 150 energy will achieve way better results than 4 sets of hallucination ever will. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19367 Posts
On March 30 2024 19:59 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Halluci is kind of a waste in mass into mass attacks because storm exists. 4ht in a shuttle with 150 energy will achieve way better results than 4 sets of hallucination ever will. I'd love to see Hallucinate drops in a Terran base to clear mines before a big arbiter recall. | ||
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TMNT
3229 Posts
On March 30 2024 11:42 XenOsky wrote: The muta micro argument is really bs imo, cause having decent muta micro is like knowing how to stop 2 gate zealot rush with dragoon micro, is basic to get out of the lower levels, ofc u can take that shit to prime JD level and just crush with micro, but arguing that one race is the most difficult cause relies on this particular skillset to survive a match up is basically describing StarCraft... u can't play high level protoss with scrub level reaver control and no protoss cries about having to learn reaver control or dragoon control... in fact u can play protoss with no reaver at all but is suboptimal, and if u're lossing to something unoptimal, u're trash. This is spot on. Some people (like the guy at the top of this page) like to pretend that Zerg is useless if you don't know Muta micro. The truth is below B rank most Zerg players don't even do Muta's openings against Terran, let alone Protoss lol. There are different ways to play Zerg. Hawk got to mid C rank (iirc) with Zerg, playing on one hand without building a single Muta ffs. Not ideally, but you can say the same for any races. Saying Zerg is hardest because of Muta micro is like saying Protoss is hardest because of Reaver micro. Even if you look at the foreign scene, aside from Bonyth and Dewalt who else can use Reaver vs Terran properly? In that sense, the "easiest to play" debate gets even more confusing, because it also depends on how you want to play. For example if you look at the SC university games in Korea, in ZvP some coaches (our progamers nonetheless) tend to guide those female BJ towards that build in which you just sit behind mass sunkens and lurkers until 12 ultralisks are out on the map. Meanwhile the Protoss players who just follow the mantra of "just macro, making goons and zealots and HTs" have an easy time in the mid game but fail horribly in the late game when the ultras are out. Now can you say Protoss is harder because you have to incorporate Reaver micro into your mid game timing to end a Zerg who plays like that? | ||
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namkraft
561 Posts
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FinsT
32 Posts
On March 30 2024 23:03 TMNT wrote: ... In that sense, the "easiest to play" debate gets even more confusing, because it also depends on how you want to play. ... Not really confusing, no. It depends on how you want to play _only_ if the debate is about this or that playstyle to begin with - i.e., if this poll would specifically mention "flying units micro easiest for which race?" or say "which race is easiest to get rank C with", etc. When such specifics are defined, then variations are possible and it does, indeed, depend on how exactly you wanna play it. But in this poll, it does not depend on how you want to play. The OP specifically stated he's asking which race is easiest to play without any specifics considered. This means, we must assume the easiest playstyle possible with each race, then compare which of the three races is most easy to play while doing that easiest-for-this-race playstyle. And that's why my 1st post in this topic was about dragoon spam: can't quite imagine anything easier which would still count as anyhow reasonable playstyle. Marines may look like it, but they're so darn squishy without medics, and medics is already two different units to make and control - resulting, imo, in slightly more difficulty to achieve same result as dragoon spam would do. Zerglings, of course, die to air units, so won't do for "easiest" game, too. Hydras - maybe, but only in certain quite-able hands; otherwise, they are denied by tanks, reavers and storms so damn hard. P.S. + Show Spoiler + Later, one of posters said that it depends on how we measure success, too; "you started the game playing this or that race - gratz, success achieved" idea. Meaning, it's possible to be playing the game "somehow" by simply doing literally anything. Like having your own drones duke it out vs each other at your base. But i'm sure this doesn't count: "easiest to play" phrase implies that the player is actually trying to win, doing something which provides some reasonable chance of winning. Technically it's true that we can play a game without trying to win it, it's just that "easiest" word loses all meaning then, yeah... So why ask and answer if it's meaningless, right? :D | ||
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Shinokuki
United States924 Posts
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