|
On December 15 2023 01:14 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2023 00:02 Chaosu wrote:
Some of you are unreasonably entitled demanding answers to your questions. Especially those questions which are already answered.
Hello respectable forum veteran. How nice of you to spew some more of your opinions on this ordeal after 6+ years of inactivity on TL and forever more concerning BW related topics, be brave and name who you're refering to with "Some of you". Be clear. Also please enlighten me on which questions have already been clearly answered and what the answer to those questions is and answered by who. While you're at it also provide a source including a quote of where you found said answers. Either contribute something useful here or shut up, same goes for last 3 posters that haven't contributed shit and decide their opinion should be heard.
Funny how you act authoritatively and seem to think the amount of posts gives you some kind of position to dictate who should post here and what. On top of that are under the impression that your post "contributed" anything to the discussion whilst being a summary of obvious statements and ridiculous demands 
|
United States10540 Posts
Thanks for the statement ZZZero. There are still a lot of missing pieces that would give us a full picture of what happened. At the minimum, we appreciate that Rapid was given the axe after you acknowledged the mistake which led him to being at the event in the first place.
As others have said, we're still missing key facts, though with Rus_Brain's statement earlier, we can probably see what was going on. Brain wanted to bring more firepower to the event in the form of Sharp. Rapid could get him that. It's still unclear who reached out to who, but based upon the way that Brain speaks about Rapid, it's likely that the two did not randomly link up again out of the blue, and that their relationship has continued in spite of the allegations 3 years ago.
ZZZero, realizing that Brain likely brought Rapid back, probably did not want to step on any toes and get into an argument with Brain regarding the fact that Rapid was banned previously, which likely caused him to give pause to a decision on removing Rapid from the event. It took the community response to give ZZZero the confidence to make that decision.
Ultimately, the whole situation seems mostly an issue of Rus_Brain having a desire to make the event as good as possible, which is fine, but at the cost of ethics by bringing back someone who was banned. To this moment, we still do not have any statement from Rapid himself. He's been given ample time, and no doubt he is aware of these threads at this point taking issue with his sudden return. The fact that he has had 3 years to make a response, and now another few days to issue one to address everything, speaks volumes of his silence.
I also look forward to hopefully seeing these NW brigaders leave our forums. Please don't come back.
|
On December 15 2023 01:51 ShadPro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2023 01:14 Peeano wrote:On December 15 2023 00:02 Chaosu wrote:
Some of you are unreasonably entitled demanding answers to your questions. Especially those questions which are already answered.
Hello respectable forum veteran. How nice of you to spew some more of your opinions on this ordeal after 6+ years of inactivity on TL and forever more concerning BW related topics, be brave and name who you're refering to with "Some of you". Be clear. Also please enlighten me on which questions have already been clearly answered and what the answer to those questions is and answered by who. While you're at it also provide a source including a quote of where you found said answers. Either contribute something useful here or shut up, same goes for last 3 posters that haven't contributed shit and decide their opinion should be heard. Funny how you act authoritatively and seem to think the amount of posts gives you some kind of position to dictate who should post here and what. On top of that are under the impression that your post "contributed" anything to the discussion whilst being a summary of obvious statements and ridiculous demands
Shad I like you as a player, and I respect the skill you have, but if you're just going to ignore the rules of Teamliquid then get out of here. You haven't had a single stance on this topic except shitting on the forum and the people who have concern. Then you're just echoing that we are just trying to actively hurt ZZZero. That is not what we are here for. Accountability and responsibility for giving Rapid a stage without an a denial or acknowledgement of his allegations.
|
On December 14 2023 23:30 Airneanach wrote:
At this point ZZZero, you're in a corner. You can either choose to defend Rapid, and you'll win the support of no_brain, and his bots on polish 4chan, or you can side with the community, double down on the Rapid ban, and call out rus. The choice is yours, and I don't envy you.
On December 15 2023 01:55 FlaShFTW wrote:
I also look forward to hopefully seeing these NW brigaders leave our forums. Please don't come back.
This is turning into a hate speech towards a large group of people.
|
thank you for the statement ZZZero. i hope that you get some rest, and then hopefully some of the followup questions others have had in this thread get resolved.
i know a few of the posters from poland and russia "started it" in the last thread with the east vs west crap. but westerners: please stop continuing it. in one of the previous threads i wrote a lengthy post talking about it, so i won't restate everything again. but, just, please stop. it is only harmful.
|
Please dont think that you guys are representing the community..its only a couple of you think you guys are making this community healthy. all these demands are to keep support bsl and for the long run of the tourney but i think you guys just want to hear more dramas.
Zzzero admitted they shouldnt have rapid and he is banned. Thats it.
|
On December 15 2023 02:19 BulgarianToss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2023 23:30 Airneanach wrote:
At this point ZZZero, you're in a corner. You can either choose to defend Rapid, and you'll win the support of no_brain, and his bots on polish 4chan, or you can side with the community, double down on the Rapid ban, and call out rus. The choice is yours, and I don't envy you. Show nested quote +On December 15 2023 01:55 FlaShFTW wrote:
I also look forward to hopefully seeing these NW brigaders leave our forums. Please don't come back. This is turning into a hate speech towards a large group of people.
you're right, there are racists remarks to the polish and it's individuals who are making statements. That's not right and its coming from a place of hard emotion.
With that being said these indivduals are vehemently defending Rapid's actions when it's always been us wanting rapid to defend it or acknowledge his actions. That alone is the entire basis and why what they are saying holds absolutely no weight here, and is being met with harsh criticism back that is racist.Call them out as individuals not as a race or community.
|
On December 15 2023 01:14 Peeano wrote:
be brave and name who you're refering to with "Some of you". I don't mean to be name calling. I was merely trying to hint at some stances shown in this thread. Hint can be taken, or missed and we have to accept both. But since you asked, you're one of "some".
On December 15 2023 01:14 Peeano wrote:
Also please enlighten me on which questions have already been clearly answered and what the answer to those questions is and answered by who. While you're at it also provide a source including a quote of where you found said answers. I'd rather ask those who demand questions to read threads carefully, than demand answers from Zero or from me like you're doing now. But since you asked nicely I'll cover one post.
On December 14 2023 17:39 fearthequeen wrote:
- Who invited Rapid to the LAN in the first place?
- Who asked that Rapid join the cast on day 1?
- Do you assume responsibility for these two actions, or are those individuals held accountable as well in some way?
On December 14 2023 15:08 ZZZero.O wrote:
I didn't know that Rapid will be / was invited and will come to the LAN.
[...]
First day of the cast I was asked to bring Rapid to help with the cast since both Artosis and me were playing/working hard
[...]
I agree it's my mistake.
(cited by LUCKY_NOOB in other thread)
However this is in the Bombastic 25th Anniversary LAN: 09 - 12 December thread:
ORGANIZERS
Rus_Brain - Offline organization and logistics
ZZZero - Online organization and stream production
On December 10 2023 00:52 Rus_Brain wrote:
Yet, there is more to this tale. I've encountered a person who committed an action so dumbfuck that one might deem it the epitome of folly. Lord have mercy on him; he refrained from blatantly criminal actions. But he did expend both his time and resources to attend this once per quarter century offline gathering. Interestingly, not a single soul objected to this person's appearance or questioned the event's organizers in real life. Question 1.
While it's not explicitly written who invited Rapid to LAN, we 1. know it wasn't Zero (so why demand an answer from him?) 2. know event was not invite only, both for spectators and players 3. know Rapid offered his time and resources to someone and it wasn't Zero.
Question 2.
Not answered.
Question 3.
Zero takes responsibility for allowing Rapid. The "help accountable" part of is or is not answered.
On December 15 2023 01:14 Peeano wrote:
Either contribute something useful here or shut up, same goes for last 3 posters that haven't contributed shit and decide their opinion should be heard. Also, don't be a backseat moderator. Our moderators handle the moderation so you don't have to.
|
Thanks for the statement ZZZero. Clarity on who invited Rapid would be good (sounds like it's Rus_Brain, but it'd be good to know!) because including predators in the community is something that there needs to be accountability around.
As an aside, NetWars poster isn't a race, so calling out brigading from there isn't racist.
|
Netherlands5701 Posts
On December 15 2023 02:47 Chaosu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2023 01:14 Peeano wrote:
be brave and name who you're refering to with "Some of you". I don't mean to be name calling. I was merely trying to hint at some stances shown in this thread. Hint can be taken, or missed and we have to accept both. But since you asked, you're one of "some". On December 15 2023 01:14 Peeano wrote:
Also please enlighten me on which questions have already been clearly answered and what the answer to those questions is and answered by who. While you're at it also provide a source including a quote of where you found said answers. I'd rather ask those who demand questions to read threads carefully, than demand answers from Zero or from me like you're doing now. But since you asked nicely I'll cover one post. On December 14 2023 17:39 fearthequeen wrote:
- Who invited Rapid to the LAN in the first place?
- Who asked that Rapid join the cast on day 1?
- Do you assume responsibility for these two actions, or are those individuals held accountable as well in some way? On December 14 2023 15:08 ZZZero.O wrote:
I didn't know that Rapid will be / was invited and will come to the LAN.
[...]
First day of the cast I was asked to bring Rapid to help with the cast since both Artosis and me were playing/working hard
[...]
I agree it's my mistake. (cited by LUCKY_NOOB in other thread) However this is in the Bombastic 25th Anniversary LAN: 09 - 12 December thread:
ORGANIZERS
Rus_Brain - Offline organization and logistics
ZZZero - Online organization and stream productionOn December 10 2023 00:52 Rus_Brain wrote:
Yet, there is more to this tale. I've encountered a person who committed an action so dumbfuck that one might deem it the epitome of folly. Lord have mercy on him; he refrained from blatantly criminal actions. But he did expend both his time and resources to attend this once per quarter century offline gathering. Interestingly, not a single soul objected to this person's appearance or questioned the event's organizers in real life. Question 1. While it's not explicitly written who invited Rapid to LAN, we 1. know it wasn't Zero (so why demand an answer from him?) 2. know event was not invite only, both for spectators and players 3. know Rapid offered his time and resources to someone and it wasn't Zero. Question 2. Not answered. Question 3. Zero takes responsibility for allowing Rapid. The "help accountable" part of is or is not answered. On December 15 2023 01:14 Peeano wrote:
Either contribute something useful here or shut up, same goes for last 3 posters that haven't contributed shit and decide their opinion should be heard. Also, don't be a backseat moderator. Our moderators handle the moderation so you don't have to.
To summarize; from your research:
Q1 is not clearly answered, as we still don't know who invited Rapid
Q2 see above, who asked ZZZero to give Rapid the mic?
Q3 is not answered fully either.
So I can conclude none of those questions were actually answered. If anything they were answered politically.
It's nice ZZZero owns his mistake for allowing Rapid to cast on day 1, and it's commendable he was responsible for not letting Rapid cast any more days, yet we still know little how it came to be Rapid being there and getting seat and mic at this event with BSL's sticker on it. Seeing Rapid's history... I take it I don't have to repeat why it's important to have more clarity.
I'm asking ZZZero (but not just ZZZero as you can tell from my first post in this thread) because clearly he knows who asked/told/ordered him to let Rapid cast, but he chose to not disclose that information in the OP. Why is that? Makes me wonder. Also, thank you for the Rus_Brain quote: It's safe to assume the person being talked about is Rapid. Why did not a single soul object though? I also addressed this in my first post in this thread. Was there something at jeopardy to not object or did all of them, excluding ZZZero, not give a shit? Maybe they settled down because ZZZero (already) took action on not letting Rapid cast more.
On December 15 2023 02:47 Chaosu wrote:
Also, don't be a backseat moderator. Our moderators handle the moderation so you don't have to.
You're right, I'm not a mod. I'm however a staff member, and with moderators missing in action I took it on me to warn people to not add excessive clutter. I've also done this in the previous thread, albeit a bit more friendly.
|
On December 15 2023 04:16 Peeano wrote:
I'm asking ZZZero (but not just ZZZero as you can tell from my first post in this thread) Technically correct! Last two sentences of your first post are not targeted at Zero. However you keep demading answers from him for organizational aspects that he was not resposible for. And demand even more answers from players and attendees. And it's all in thread where Zero gave is point of view. Do you really think this is all right? I wish you could look at you staff colleague FlaShFTW. He also have unanswered questions but he put 2 + 2 together and doesn't harass Zero for no reason.
|
Croatia9547 Posts
You guys need to lower your pitchforks. Take a breather until you stop seeing red, and then come back to the thread with a clear mind. ZZZero's statement just confirms everything that someone who knew him for over 10 years in our scene should've already known. Asking further questions is reasonable, but you can probably fill in the blanks yourself.
The most important things that needed addressing and were addressed by ZZZero:
- He didn't know Rapid would be there and most definitely didn't invite him himself
- He had a lapse of judgement due to all the stress and chaos around him and allowed Rapid to cast on day 1 of the tournament
- He took full accountability for his mistake and corrected his wrong decision from day 2 onwards
Now give the man some time to actually enjoy his time on a beach in Thailand and I'm sure all relevant further questions will be answered in due time.
|
Netherlands5701 Posts
On December 15 2023 04:53 Chaosu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2023 04:16 Peeano wrote:
I'm asking ZZZero (but not just ZZZero as you can tell from my first post in this thread) Technically correct! Last two sentences of your first post are not targeted at Zero. However you keep demading answers from him for organizational aspects that he was not resposible for. And demand even more answers from players and attendees. And it's all in thread where Zero gave is point of view. Do you really think this is all right? I wish you could look at you staff colleague FlaShFTW. He also have unanswered questions but he put 2 + 2 together and doesn't harass Zero for no reason.
I'm not harassing. I want clarity and ZZZero hinted he knows more.
I'd like for ZZZero to disclose that bit, at least. If he knows more, I'd like to hear that too, of course.
My post is more about stating what we know and what we don't know. Things I deem important to get clarity on.
I'm not demanding ZZZero to be(come) a detective and give me all the answers. I will say it again in case you missed it. I want clarity. Preferably Rus_Brain will provide clarity, but because of his recent posts (and silence since) it doesn't seem like he cares enough to give that, I ask ZZZero, attendees, including Rapid himself to provide us with more info.
Trying to put my colleague FlaShFTW on your side, and thus against me is just shameful.
|
On December 15 2023 01:04 ShadPro wrote:
They would have acted differently, stood their ground, stopped the tournament, abandoned management, kicked Rapid and Sharp out all in the name of integrity.
Rapid - 100%, no questions asked.
Sharp - He can stay, I don't believe in guilt by association, doubt he even knows what Rapid had done and I'd welcome the opportunity to inform him. Everyone should have the chance to renounce their friendship when they find out their friend is actually a piece of shit.
Just to give you a straight answer, even though your conduct does not warrant it.
That brings me to the topic of ZZZero's statement. I can understand trying to provide context for his mistake, such as his previous relationship with Rapid, Rapid's previous contributions to BSL, etc. I won't read too much into it, though it would be easy to view that as implicit support for Rapid in a "b-b-but he's really an alright guy!" type of way. I can also empathize with the chaos that comes from hosting an event in a venue in a country where they mostly do not speak your native language, the venue owners may not speak your native language or even your mutually common language well, where you have to set up a stream and the tournament itself in an unfamiliar venue on unfamiliar machines, etc. because that is what I did. I can also empathize with softening your resolve on a decision you made because you know the fallout of going against the grain (sponsor) can cost your tournament, players, and scene in terms of money, support, etc. because again, I did.
However, a 27-year-old person who sends unsolicited dickpics to community members over the internet is a piece of shit, through and through. A person who has done nothing to address the issue, make amends, or apologize in the years since is an even bigger piece of shit. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. There are simply lines which cannot be crossed and conduct which cannot be tolerated. This is the case here.
So, I find the whole "I was so busy and it was such a surprise and he did so much for BSL before so I just pulled him out a chair and microphone" defense to be a really weak one. However, given that ZZZero has acknowledged that error, apologized, and acted to correct it, I am more than willing to forgive him. Not trying to sound magnanimous here, like my forgiveness means anything to anyone, just stating my opinion.
I won't pretend to be some paragon of morality. I too did things which have been damaging to the foreign StarCraft community. No one is perfect, we all make mistakes and bad decisions. It is the nature of those mistakes, how we handle their consequences, how we own up to them, how we make amends, and how we grow to not repeat those mistakes that demonstrates an evolution in our character. Rapid never did any of that, he just tried to sneak/bribe his way back into the community and act as if nothing happened. Like the disgusting snake that he is.
That is why again I say, fuck Rapid and anyone who supports, defends, or enables him. And that is why I think there is so much vitriol toward the army of Polish posters acting like buffoons here, because they seem eager to overlook a grown man sending photos of his genitalia to underage women over the internet - not that the recipient's gender matters here. Imagine it is your daughter on the receiving end and think about how you - and she - would feel. Fuck you all too.
|
It is just INCREDIBLE to see how most of the attention keeps being centered on Rapid, who almost certainly we won't see in any form anymore - and is therefore irrelevant, or on Zzzero, who it seems is not the main cause for what happened, and did nonetheless take the full blame.
I meannnnnnnnnnnn........ what are u all afraid off that you would not challenge the actual person at fault???????!?!??! You must have surely noticed the contributions of crvt in the last few BSLs, the combined worth of which no doubt rivals what's about to be put at risk here?!?!
The very fact that he pretty much explicitly stated this is all his doing, and then let Zzzero take the blame SHOULD BE ON ITS OWN A SUFFICIENT REASON FOR YOU TO REFOCUS ON THE REAL ISSUE HERE!!!!!
should I spell it out?????? ZZZERO IS ESSENTIALLY IN NO POSITION TO CHALLNGE RUSBRAIN. THIS COMMUNITY HAS TO DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
On December 15 2023 06:54 nikolaus8844 wrote:
It is just INCREDIBLE to see how most of the attention keeps being centered on Rapid, who almost certainly we won't see in any form anymore - and is therefore irrelevant, or on Zzzero, who it seems is not the main cause for what happened, and did nonetheless take the full blame.
I meannnnnnnnnnnn........ what are u all afraid off that you would not challenge the actual person at fault???????!?!??! You must have surely noticed the contributions of crvt in the last few BSLs, the combined worth of which no doubt rivals what's about to be put at risk here?!?!
The very fact that he pretty much explicitly stated this is all his doing, and then let Zzzero take the blame SHOULD BE ON ITS OWN A SUFFICIENT REASON FOR YOU TO REFOCUS ON THE REAL ISSUE HERE!!!!!
should I spell it out?????? ZZZERO IS ESSENTIALLY IN NO POSITION TO CHALLNGE RUSBRAIN. THIS COMMUNITY HAS TO DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
We wouldn't be having this conversation if Rapid wasn't there. We wouldn't be worried about rapid if he didn't disappear for 3 years. Finally we wouldn't be having this discussion at all if there were no allegations against rapid, or rapid responded to his allegations in any shape or form. So it has everything to do with rapid and the relationship he has with this community, and the previous communities.
Besides I already told Rus_Brain to fuck off in the other thread.
|
Honestly im not sure what do you guys want to hear from ZZZero.
Rus Brain team was trying to bring progamers for this 25 anniversary blablabla. They even posted in Jaedong afreeca wall. That didnt work out. Few years ago when Brain made the 20 years anniversary he actually got Shine Sharp and Miso thanks to rapid relationship. Not only that but Rapid was baby sitting those koreans all trip long. Helping them with foods hotels etc etc. I imagine Brain (based in past events ) didnt expect his 25 anniversary Lan to gain this much traction. In fact if you think about it every event the guy makes is all about drama and not exactly about tournament results or the games that happened. Anyway Brain really wanted to bring a progamer to this shit and i assume his last chance was to get in touch with rapid to bring Sharp. I dont even think rapid wanted all this attention since the mf was a ghost till now. He proly went there cuz Brain paid for his flight and maybe some interpreter duties and maybe just got way to comfortable since not one said shit.( Afterall all those guys are nerds that in that moment are not going to do anything about it. ) And smh got the audacity of getting in the BSL stream. The rest is history.
ZZZero is in all this trouble cuz Rus Brain.
Rus Brain instead of coming here and say my fault. It was me the one and zzzero didnt know shit.
Or my bad. I invited Sharp but he actually bringed up Rapid LOL . How im suposed to tell this guy anything if i dont speak korean.
ZZZero explained the situation and apologized. And im pretty sure he is not happy with the situation but it is what it is.
|
On December 15 2023 02:15 art_of_turtle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2023 01:51 ShadPro wrote:On December 15 2023 01:14 Peeano wrote:On December 15 2023 00:02 Chaosu wrote:
Some of you are unreasonably entitled demanding answers to your questions. Especially those questions which are already answered.
Hello respectable forum veteran. How nice of you to spew some more of your opinions on this ordeal after 6+ years of inactivity on TL and forever more concerning BW related topics, be brave and name who you're refering to with "Some of you". Be clear. Also please enlighten me on which questions have already been clearly answered and what the answer to those questions is and answered by who. While you're at it also provide a source including a quote of where you found said answers. Either contribute something useful here or shut up, same goes for last 3 posters that haven't contributed shit and decide their opinion should be heard. Funny how you act authoritatively and seem to think the amount of posts gives you some kind of position to dictate who should post here and what. On top of that are under the impression that your post "contributed" anything to the discussion whilst being a summary of obvious statements and ridiculous demands Shad I like you as a player, and I respect the skill you have, but if you're just going to ignore the rules of Teamliquid then get out of here. You haven't had a single stance on this topic except shitting on the forum and the people who have concern. Then you're just echoing that we are just trying to actively hurt ZZZero. That is not what we are here for. Accountability and responsibility for giving Rapid a stage without an a denial or acknowledgement of his allegations.
Thanks, I like you too <3
I really don't know which rules I am breaking here and why am I required to have a stance. Is there a rule that requires me to either condemn someone or accept? Or can I just raise questions and cast doubt over things that some take for granted? I agree with some of the statements made here, but I don't with some either. For this I have already been called a war-supportint Polish nationalist, coming from an incel cesspit, advocate of pedophilia. Maybe you are right, I should be out
|
TBH, ZZZero knows he fucked up and he posted an explanation. It's reasonable and for me it's done. The two things that glaringly disappoints me more than anything from reading this whole thing though is:
1. The guy whom funds most of the foreign SC tournaments seems toxic AF (Rus_Brain).
2. Almost every top foreigner just disappears and can't be found when there's any critique against ZZZero, Rus_Brain, or others. Maybe it's because they are friends with Rus_Brain, ZZZero, Rapid, etc. (I've had good experiences with ZZZero for example) or they don't want to say anything that would get them kicked off the "in-list" and prevent them from being invited to things, or whatever. Or maybe they just don't care. Who knows. I respect Eon and the few others whom speak up and say it like they see it though because most foreigners or notable figures in the foreign scene just disappear. There's honestly very few strong voices in the foreign community.
Anyways, that's just my thoughts...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
