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We have 9 maps on Ladder maps now
Invader
Neo Dark Origin
Apocalypse
Fighting Spirit
La Campanella
Polypoid
Retro
Tempest (Map)
Vermeer
But we have no any island bases, but why?
I think, island bases make players use air units. Games will be fun and exciting more
Invader should have a island base in the center map
Neo Dark Origin should have a island base inside each main
Apocalypse should have 3 island bases near each main
La Campanella is the best map in this map pool
Tempest (Map) should remove 4 gas at every 4th base, then add a island base in the center map with 2 gas.
Fighting Spirit, Vermeer, Polypoid, Retro should remove 3/4 maps. Because they are similar 99% about everything, except their names
 Ladder/Maps
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This is lacking an analysis on what those changes would do~ not that i disagree that some maps are similar (see fs and retro)
If you want those changes, make them in the editor, find ppl to play, then report on it. So we can have actual data or replay because i m very skeptical of most of these.
Better yet, make the changes and host a tournament
Edit: needlessly direct at first, my bad
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United States10534 Posts
Someone clearly just has a fetish for islands lol. Not every map needs to have an island to play in an interesting way. Also, maps are standardized for a reason because making weird maps breaks the meta and causes major imbalances. Maps literally patched Starcraft basically. We have small tweaks here or there but for the most part, we have standard maps BECAUSE it makes the game balanced.
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Island bases are strongly P favored in all matchups.
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And a Zerg graveyard: P >> T >> Z
They tried to fix it with Sparkle in ASL 5. Didn't work.
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I would not call Sparkle as a good example of having one island base in a regular map.
I like really much when a map has some design that changes the gamepaly. It might not be cool on ladder, but is a lot of fun for preparying tournaments.
I remember back in 2006 playing the WCG qualifis on Othello and Blue Storm where even the mirror matchupps were offmeta. Really cool.
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On November 21 2023 16:53 kogeT wrote:
Island bases are strongly P favored in all matchups.
Even if there arent minerals blocking the island? (floating CCs is insanely powerful)
But I guess most island expansions had the "mineral blocking" feature for so long to prevent that.. so my point is kinda moot -_-
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@WGT-Baal
I just love to watch this game, I don't like to play it because I can't beat Zerg, even I play Terran.
I hosted a tournament with 100 USD price but just a player would like to join.
@FlaShFTW
What is the balance map? Do you know 4p maps favor for Terran? It doesn't balance in FS, Vermeer, Luna, CB...
Standard maps are good but it's too terrible when we have to play 100% maps like that. It's not StarCraft, it's not fun, it's not the best game
@kogeT, O.P
I said island bases, I didn't say island maps, although I love to watch island maps
We should give Protoss a chance to win T, Z. Because Protoss is weakest race from D rank to SSS rank.
@ALL
If guys don't know why maps: 76, 815, Andromeda, Arcadia, Arizona, Arkanoid, Alternative, Avant Garde, Battle Royal, Block Chain, Blitz, Enter The Dragon, Empire of the Sun, Eddy, Desert Fox... so good, they deserve to watch 1000000000 times.
There is only a reason: ISLAND BASES ON THEM
Category:Maps
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I agree, maps with island bases (NOT full island maps, as OP said) are really cool and it's been a while since we've had them in the map pool. Best we've had are semi-island maps like Block Chain or Nemesis.
Would love to see modern map makers take a crack at something like Andromeda or Empire of the Sun again.
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Because people are dorks who favor standard balance over zany shenanigans
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Map makes have been toying with the idea lately. La Campanella have those semi-island expansions which makes it kinda of interesting. 76 as well, but that one is too crazy for my liking. Odyssey has that close expansion, only accesible to workers, which works as a semi-island, and def gave us great games.
I would not mind having a map with maybe one true island expansion, but it has to be carefully done to make sure it doesnt throw away balance (too much). Also it occurs to me that island expansions would possibly extended the duration of all the matchups, which is something the pro scene is not very fond of.
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On November 21 2023 23:02 bovienchien wrote:@WGT-Baal I just love to watch this game, I don't like to play it because I can't beat Zerg, even I play Terran. I hosted a tournament with 100 USD price but just a player would like to join. @FlaShFTW What is the balance map? Do you know 4p maps favor for Terran? It doesn't balance in FS, Vermeer, Luna, CB... Standard maps are good but it's too terrible when we have to play 100% maps like that. It's not StarCraft, it's not fun, it's not the best game @kogeT, O.P I said island bases, I didn't say island maps, although I love to watch island maps We should give Protoss a chance to win T, Z. Because Protoss is weakest race from D rank to SSS rank. @ALL If guys don't know why maps: 76, 815, Andromeda, Arcadia, Arizona, Arkanoid, Alternative, Avant Garde, Battle Royal, Block Chain, Blitz, Enter The Dragon, Empire of the Sun, Eddy, Desert Fox... so good, they deserve to watch 1000000000 times. There is only a reason: ISLAND BASES ON THEM Category:Maps
If only one player entered then maybe people just don't share your passion.
Personally i find island maps for 1v1 terrible BUT i love them for 2v2 which is why bwcl still runs some. Arkanoid for example was pretty solid in 2v2 and terrible in 1v1. Iron fortress and sparkle are also amazing in 2v2.
Island bases it depends on the map and how they are made. I think la campanella is ok, though not true islands for instance, but I didnt like the LT islands
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United States10534 Posts
On November 22 2023 00:02 Ideas wrote:
I agree, maps with island bases (NOT full island maps, as OP said) are really cool and it's been a while since we've had them in the map pool. Best we've had are semi-island maps like Block Chain or Nemesis.
Would love to see modern map makers take a crack at something like Andromeda or Empire of the Sun again.
Empire/Andromeda followed the same exact formula of just sticking them at the top and bottom. Quite boring tbh. I do like the semi-island with neutrals or minerals blocking. Could be interested to see a remake of Troy.
Battle Royal
Mans really tried to sneak in Battle Royal into the list of "good" maps like we wouldn't notice. It was literally a ZvZ fest over and over again. 50 matches played, 37 of them ZvZs. The other 13 matches were 10-3 in favor of Zerg. LOL.
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On November 21 2023 14:08 FlaShFTW wrote:
Someone clearly just has a fetish for islands lol.
Just another D level player who makes threads like these all the time based on their limited understanding of the game.
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Not gonna lie.. not saying it would be a "good" thing.. but I would love it if there was a random 256x256 map in BSL or even ASL...
just
for
the
lulz
:D
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On November 22 2023 08:52 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Not gonna lie.. not saying it would be a "good" thing.. but I would love it if there was a random 256x256 map in BSL or even ASL...
just
for
the
lulz
:D
Can you imagine the TvTs on it? It would take the week
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"that was a rather swift TvT folks, lastet only 1 hour!"
:D
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And so another '' what about island map'' circle begin. I hope this time it doesn't end in asl.
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Lost Temple was best for Islands
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Would I want to watch pro games on island maps? Yes.
Would I want to play games on island maps as a pro? No.
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Maybe it is different with pros but whenever I play island maps (which is ofc rare) I feel like Im even worse than Im to begin with. Higher minerals less accurate ect..
Playing Island maps is harder than Land maps imho..
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not enough manly players to play islands
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On November 21 2023 09:57 bovienchien wrote:
I think, island bases make players use air units. Games will be fun and exciting more
Very insightful!
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United Kingdom12047 Posts
On November 23 2023 04:04 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Maybe it is different with pros but whenever I play island maps (which is ofc rare) I feel like Im even worse than Im to begin with. Higher minerals less accurate ect..
Playing Island maps is harder than Land maps imho..
If island maps were all there was and all you'd ever known you'd be saying the same about land maps.
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Netherlands5694 Posts
Island maps really haven't been explored enough imho.
It would be very interesting to have an island only tournament. I doubt any pros will have interest to participate in it (and be bad all over again to figure out island maps). And thus we will always refer to old data and speculate about what if. And the general consent is that by default island maps are bad.
Island maps make BW a way different game, just like FMP does. Build orders, (ideal) unit compositions, strategy all become vastly different. Land maps as it is, with over 20 years of high level competition, still haven't been perfected yet.
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On November 22 2023 02:42 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 00:02 Ideas wrote:
I agree, maps with island bases (NOT full island maps, as OP said) are really cool and it's been a while since we've had them in the map pool. Best we've had are semi-island maps like Block Chain or Nemesis.
Would love to see modern map makers take a crack at something like Andromeda or Empire of the Sun again. Empire/Andromeda followed the same exact formula of just sticking them at the top and bottom. Quite boring tbh. I do like the semi-island with neutrals or minerals blocking. Could be interested to see a remake of Troy.
It's been years and years since we've had a new map in that fashion so I'd be down to see a new one in the pool is all I'm saying lol. Way more interesting than yet another standard retro/polypoid style map. Would also love to see something like Return of the King where there was a small mineral-only island inside the main of each base.
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On November 21 2023 22:59 PhilGood2DaY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2023 16:53 kogeT wrote:
Island bases are strongly P favored in all matchups. Even if there arent minerals blocking the island? (floating CCs is insanely powerful) But I guess most island expansions had the "mineral blocking" feature for so long to prevent that.. so my point is kinda moot -_-
This is what I was wondering too.
I think no minerals blocking the island makes Terran go from being the worst island race by a medium margin to by far the most overwhelmingly broken.
By the time Zerg has 2 hatch muta up, you could have 2 CC 3 port wraith
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On November 24 2023 23:21 Peeano wrote:
Island maps really haven't been explored enough imho.
It would be very interesting to have an island only tournament. I doubt any pros will have interest to participate in it (and be bad all over again to figure out island maps). And thus we will always refer to old data and speculate about what if. And the general consent is that by default island maps are bad.
Island maps make BW a way different game, just like FMP does. Build orders, (ideal) unit compositions, strategy all become vastly different. Land maps as it is, with over 20 years of high level competition, still haven't been perfected yet.
What would it take to get players for something like that?
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Netherlands5694 Posts
On December 11 2023 02:35 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 23:21 Peeano wrote:
Island maps really haven't been explored enough imho.
It would be very interesting to have an island only tournament. I doubt any pros will have interest to participate in it (and be bad all over again to figure out island maps). And thus we will always refer to old data and speculate about what if. And the general consent is that by default island maps are bad.
Island maps make BW a way different game, just like FMP does. Build orders, (ideal) unit compositions, strategy all become vastly different. Land maps as it is, with over 20 years of high level competition, still haven't been perfected yet. What would it take to get players for something like that?
If you want major proleague players, then you'll have to bring big money. You gotta offer more than they can make playing their regular PL, quite a lot more I imagine. It's not feasible.
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You want to remove 3 maps in the pool?
You have 3 vetoes.
Although I think it's almost consensus at this point to remove FS.
To be fair, only FS and Retro play out similarly. Both 12 gas maps with similarly defensible nat/3rds and both have a middle base. (Even then, FS is double gas mid, and Retro is min only, architecture of the middles of the maps are a bit different too.) Vermeer is 16 gas map with unramped/wide double choke 3rds. Poly is 12 gas map with high ground min only 3rds. They really aren't that similar.
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On December 11 2023 03:43 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2023 02:35 oBlade wrote:On November 24 2023 23:21 Peeano wrote:
Island maps really haven't been explored enough imho.
It would be very interesting to have an island only tournament. I doubt any pros will have interest to participate in it (and be bad all over again to figure out island maps). And thus we will always refer to old data and speculate about what if. And the general consent is that by default island maps are bad.
Island maps make BW a way different game, just like FMP does. Build orders, (ideal) unit compositions, strategy all become vastly different. Land maps as it is, with over 20 years of high level competition, still haven't been perfected yet. What would it take to get players for something like that? If you want major proleague players, then you'll have to bring big money. You gotta offer more than they can make playing their regular PL, quite a lot more I imagine. It's not feasible.
It's not necessary to get top pros to have an interesting tournament.
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Netherlands5694 Posts
On December 19 2023 22:02 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2023 03:43 Peeano wrote:On December 11 2023 02:35 oBlade wrote:On November 24 2023 23:21 Peeano wrote:
Island maps really haven't been explored enough imho.
It would be very interesting to have an island only tournament. I doubt any pros will have interest to participate in it (and be bad all over again to figure out island maps). And thus we will always refer to old data and speculate about what if. And the general consent is that by default island maps are bad.
Island maps make BW a way different game, just like FMP does. Build orders, (ideal) unit compositions, strategy all become vastly different. Land maps as it is, with over 20 years of high level competition, still haven't been perfected yet. What would it take to get players for something like that? If you want major proleague players, then you'll have to bring big money. You gotta offer more than they can make playing their regular PL, quite a lot more I imagine. It's not feasible. It's not necessary to get top pros to have an interesting tournament.
I didn't say we need top pros to have an interesting island only tournament. I'm saying they're an important asset if we want to figure out island maps better (and quicker).
I believe BW can be richer with island maps, and maps with island bases as OP mentioned, included. Back in the day we had island and land maps in the ladder. I wouldn't mind going back to that. More diversity might not make the game better, but it would definitely make it more fun to me. Competitively I can see the point that the game is already hard enough at high level, so fuck bringing in more diversity and let's stick to land maps. I find, without new maps, BW gets stale. Always staying in the comfort zone (playing only standard land maps) is boring.
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United States10534 Posts
I think another map like Third World but better executed would be interesting. That map was quite cool with the sort of split map situation but ultimately led to rush fests on the bottom half and did not lead to too much top half play. Would love to see that idea played out again.
Another island idea would be to have Estrella where your main (and maybe nat) could be on an island but the main bulk of the map is all connected, rather than a pure island map like Sparkle.
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On November 21 2023 16:53 kogeT wrote:
Island bases are strongly P favored in all matchups.
This, pretty much. Your average, run-of-the-mill island base usually plays out as a simple "drop Probe and get free base" way. Not particularly interesting.
However, (partially) cliffable islands or islands with additional safe drop zones are rather under-utilized features that probably have some potential.
On November 21 2023 22:59 PhilGood2DaY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2023 16:53 kogeT wrote:
Island bases are strongly P favored in all matchups. Even if there arent minerals blocking the island? (floating CCs is insanely powerful) But I guess most island expansions had the "mineral blocking" feature for so long to prevent that.. so my point is kinda moot -_-
Not even sure the old LT CC float troll builds are that viable any more. Those bases are rather slow to get up and easy to deny with only a Shuttle and Reaver, which in today's meta is basically a free and standard tech choice for Protoss.
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EPT
