EPTSource: https://bj.afreecatv.com/afstar1/post/97072142
will appreciate help with the translations
Online Prelims on Jan 28-29(saturday and sunday)
[ASL15] Afreeca Starleague To Start On Feb 28
| Forum Index > BW General |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50110 Posts
Source: https://bj.afreecatv.com/afstar1/post/97072142 will appreciate help with the translations Online Prelims on Jan 28-29(saturday and sunday)
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itsdaniel
Austria334 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
 Ziggy was supposed to go there and give us an irl stream  | ||
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moktira
Ireland1543 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19227 Posts
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Danka
Peru1018 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On January 16 2023 20:10 Peeano wrote: Covid ruining offline qualies? Ziggy was supposed to go there and give us an irl stream Is the situation bad in SK right now or what? | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On January 17 2023 02:14 Miragee wrote: Sweet! Is the situation bad in SK right now or what? Nah, they have offline events all the time now. Just that since covid, online events have become the norm. More efficient actually (2 days instead of 3) and saves a lot of expenses. They're not selling tickets for qualifiers anyway so there's really no benefits in organizing it offline compared to online. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On January 17 2023 03:00 TMNT wrote: Nah, they have offline events all the time now. Just that since covid, online events have become the norm. More efficient actually (2 days instead of 3) and saves a lot of expenses. They're not selling tickets for qualifiers anyway so there's really no benefits in organizing it offline compared to online. I guess... I mean, offline is just a whole different experience still but I understand. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Volka
Argentina408 Posts
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redknights
206 Posts
Source: https://www.fmkorea.com/index.php?mid=starcraft&document_srl=5408189575 | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50110 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
On January 16 2023 23:50 BisuDagger wrote: Can't wait! Last year had some great flash-less tournaments! i prefer the flashful tournaments ;x | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On January 17 2023 22:20 redknights wrote: TY of SC2 fame is back from military and will try to qualify for ASL Source: https://www.fmkorea.com/index.php?mid=starcraft&document_srl=5408189575 According to Google Translate it seems he's planning on playing both BW and SC2? Would be nice to see him in ASL! | ||
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stambe
Bulgaria492 Posts
On January 18 2023 00:39 RogerChillingworth wrote: i prefer the flashful tournaments ;x Hear, hear ! | ||
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Random Flash was amazing, I also want more. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50110 Posts
On January 18 2023 00:39 RogerChillingworth wrote: i prefer the flashful tournaments ;x I think he misses the tournament by 2 weeks? he's done with his service by the end of feb right? | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On January 17 2023 22:20 redknights wrote: TY of SC2 fame is back from military and will try to qualify for ASL Source: https://www.fmkorea.com/index.php?mid=starcraft&document_srl=5408189575 I had always thought his ID before By.Baby was By.Sun (back when he was playing that student league, during public playtest of a Longinus prototype on the Twilight tileset rather than the Jungle tileset), but the wisdom of liquipedia has shown me that it was Siz)Sun! Thanks Liquipedia!  BaBy | ||
Chosi
Germany1302 Posts
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masoka82
Spain594 Posts
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Freezard
Sweden1010 Posts
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1678 Posts
RAIN RETURN AND STYLE ON THESE KIDS | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On January 18 2023 16:35 thedeadhaji wrote: I had always thought his ID before By.Baby was By.Sun (back when he was playing that student league, during public playtest of a Longinus prototype on the Twilight tileset rather than the Jungle tileset), but the wisdom of liquipedia has shown me that it was Siz)Sun! Thanks Liquipedia! https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/BaBy Wasn't By.Sun Rain? sorry double post | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On January 19 2023 10:13 ShowTheLights wrote: Wasn't By.Sun Rain? sorry double post Yep! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50110 Posts
On January 19 2023 10:13 ShowTheLights wrote: PLEASE RAINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN RAIN RETURN AND STYLE ON THESE KIDS yeah like he got styled on by light. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
Before anyone takes offense: I'm saying seemingly because his opponent's performance as well as what the observer shows you, matters. The observer did great btw, catching alll the great action that highlighted Rain. Rain is good, but he is nowhere near top 5, not without months of dedicated practice. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
On January 18 2023 18:03 Chosi wrote: Being in my 40s there is always some anxiety in the back of my head about things (and people) that I love going away or dying. It's an extraordinary pleasure and luck that just that single game that I fell in love with in the last millennium (!) is not only still alive, like some other games with a small but die-hard community (Quake1, Dark Reign, Warcraft 1 / 2, etc.), but it has a fucking Star League with people pouring their hearts (and seemingly all waking hours) into it and it's being performed at the highest level ever. Good people, I am SO FUCKING HYPED AND GRATEFUL for this! I like this comment a lot !!!! BW FOREVER !!   | ||
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TornadoSteve
1011 Posts
On January 19 2023 20:03 Peeano wrote:Rain is good, but he is nowhere near top 5, not without months of dedicated practice. I disagree. While hes out of the top5, pretty sure hes among top10, even without serious practice. Natural talent, and whenever hes playing, hes a threat to anyone, top5 included. Hope hes playing | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
Btw kinda hard to say who's top 5 right now. I feel like the top 3 Terran (Royal, Light, Rush) are definitely in it, based on recent Proleague results. Out of the Zerg, Queen hasn't regained his champion's level, Soma is in a mini slump right now, Soulkey hasn't been active recently, only Hero is consistent. I'd say only Hero makes top 5. And Protoss (not counting Rain) just suck. Snow and Best still can't play PvZ and have never been top 5 really. Mini also in a slump compared to his ASL champion standard. Bisu spending more time playing that maple story UMS mod than actual BW. I can see another Terran championship. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
I believe currently Bisu, Mini, Snow, Best, Zero, Hero, Rush, Royal, Light are all better than Rain has talent for and if Effort and Soma are serious about going for the title, Rain has 2 more difficult obstacles there. That barely puts him in top 10. Talent is not as useful if you're not putting in the work. | ||
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shakigami
219 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
On January 20 2023 04:15 shakigami wrote: you guys talk alot about Flash, but where is he now? Its a long time since I last saw his stream He is in the army shakigami ! Wait for his return | ||
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TornadoSteve
1011 Posts
and add soulkey. add action and jyj on a good day. imo hes still close to the top5, barely playing. absolute monster | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
But the main question is, has he decided to play ASL anyway? | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
 Anyway, I'm happy he was playing BW today. Maybe he will do it again tomorrow, starts improving and signs up for ASL15  | ||
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Sok211
6 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
With one ASL, one KSL, and an ASL silver, isn't he tied with Last for third/fourth most accomplished player of the ASL/KSL period? (Behind Flash and Zero and ahead of Larva --- and that's being kind to Zero, rating one ASL gold over one KSL gold + one ASL silver, after the first ASL gold cancels out on both sides of the equation). In terms of tournament placements, he's the most accomplished Protoss player since the ASL has existed. I didn't start out as a big Rain fan, but his trophy collection speaks for itself and his games have really impressed me. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19227 Posts
On January 21 2023 06:44 Djabanete wrote: It's not like the jury is still out on whether Rain is an amazing player, is it? With one ASL, one KSL, and an ASL silver, isn't he tied with Last for third/fourth most accomplished player of the ASL/KSL period? (Behind Flash and Zero and ahead of Larva --- and that's being kind to Zero, rating one ASL gold over one KSL gold + one ASL silver, after the first ASL gold cancels out on both sides of the equation). In terms of tournament placements, he's the most accomplished Protoss player since the ASL has existed. I didn't start out as a big Rain fan, but his trophy collection speaks for itself and his games have really impressed me. Big astrix is that Bisu was in the military for two years. The mandatory service length was only reduced when they saw Flash was going to have to join. | ||
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bochs
United States105 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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CHEONSOYUN
517 Posts
On January 21 2023 07:21 BisuDagger wrote: Big astrix is that Bisu was in the military for two years. The mandatory service length was only reduced when they saw Flash was going to have to join. flash isn't that big of a deal | ||
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Lazyer
United States342 Posts
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ppp87
Laos250 Posts
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Piste
6174 Posts
On January 23 2023 23:48 ppp87 wrote: what place flash reached when he played ASL as random ? If I remember correctly he placed 3rd. | ||
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End1ess
Canada73 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/6d3fqJX.jpg) Bisu is busy until 2082 | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
Yep. Impressive run until he lost pretty decisively to Soma. As far as Rain goes, he's certainly an impressive player, but if he does participate his lackluster PvT is really going to hurt him. | ||
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
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Fozzy_The_Bear
1 Post
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On January 26 2023 06:29 Fozzy_The_Bear wrote: I think I missed it, is anyone casting this in English? Not 100 % sure but I would bet on Scan and Nyoken to cast this live. At least I hope they will. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On January 26 2023 06:31 Miragee wrote: Not 100 % sure but I would bet on Scan and Nyoken to cast this live. At least I hope they will. They won't. Starcast TV already announced: https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxzyPRd2NmMAs4fHMckOjIJe1DJVz-yUxO They also set up a patreon for Scan to solo cast it live, but I'm afraid the target of 2000$ per month wont be achieved. The foreign community is piss poor when it comes to crowdfunding. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3677 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
On January 26 2023 07:09 TMNT wrote: They won't. Starcast TV already announced: https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxzyPRd2NmMAs4fHMckOjIJe1DJVz-yUxO They also set up a patreon for Scan to solo cast it live, but I'm afraid the target of 2000$ per month wont be achieved. The foreign community is piss poor when it comes to crowdfunding. Patreon goals are generally not realistic when there are only so many foreign BW fans and one could argue that a large sum of the money that's there for patreon is going to the wrong cause, then again one can also easily counter-argue that that money comes from supporters that aren't really BW fans. Anyway, that's just my opinion. Let's not forgot this community was and is mostly run on efforts by volunteers. I think we need to be careful about not guilt tripping what's left of our community for not wanting to or even being able to support (more) patreons. I, for one, am a bit sick of seeing patreons pop up all the time when lots of volunteers behind the scenes aint got salary for years and still aint getting even a dime for it. If it is any gauge: BSL has been getting around 500-700 live viewers recently and as of now has 119 patreon supporters. If I were to drop $5 on the patreon for Scan, there will still need to be another 400 people like me doing that. Going by above's gauge, I'd be throwing my money at a goal that can't be reached. And I think we can all agree while $5 is not much or something significant to lose we'd rather use it on something else than essentially waste it. That makes sense, right? Also if there are no English casts. We can still watch the Korean cast, for free, like all BW fans did back in the day. So while it's nice to have an English cast available to view top BW content, it is a luxury at best. And luxuries are always first to go in any healthy financial plan. TL;DR: The active BW community is rather small and I think it is unfair to use Tastosis' patreon as a gauge of what's possible for BW and what's not. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
It's still a big loss. I think Scan & Nyoken is a clear contender for highest level BW casting in the foreign scene ever. Similar to Peeano, I'm willing to spend 5 bucks on patreon but I think the 2000 $ per month goal is unfortunately way out of reach. Lets see how it pans out for the first month once we get the patreon link. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
Stream: https://play.afreecatv.com/jsc9905/244734969 Challonge brackets: https://www.fmkorea.com/index.php?mid=starcraft&document_srl=5439955551 notables so far - Group1: Action, Stork, Mind, Ruin, Dear Group2: Sharp, Mong, Free, Hiya, a polish Terran (Szymon Filipek?) | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
On January 28 2023 09:05 redknights wrote: qualifiers about to start, CasterMuse doing some early coverage about the qualifying brackets Stream: https://play.afreecatv.com/jsc9905/244734969 Challonge brackets: https://www.fmkorea.com/index.php?mid=starcraft&document_srl=5439955551 notables so far - Group1: Action, Stork, Mind, Ruin, Dear Group2: Sharp, Mong, Free, Hiya, a polish Terran (Szymon Filipek?) That's our Ziggy  | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
Group4: Best, Sacsri, Zelot, TY, GoRush | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
Group6: Light, Horang2 | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On January 28 2023 11:17 redknights wrote: Group5: JD, Movie, 815, Alive (incredibly weak group) Group6: Light, Horang2 Expecting JD and 815 to get out of that one. you forgot BishOp for group 5. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
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redknights
206 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/7GEQlB9.png) Rush serving as scoreboard watcher (seeded so he doesn't need to qualify) top line says he's rooting for JD, Sea, Best and Sharp That's all for me tonight, good night | ||
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Zergxhx
China144 Posts
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RJBTV
194 Posts
Group 7 has: Queen, Invade, Sea, Paralyze, ggaemo and Calm Group 8 has: Mini, Shine, Hyuk, Labak | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
edit1: 815 lost vs Absolute. Absolute vs Bishop in group 5 semi-final. edit2: Yabsab beat Hyuk. Semi-Final yabsab vs shine edit3: TY vs Best in their group final Scan lost vs Ssak. Ssak vs JyJ in their group final. Group 9 has Soma, Leta, Kop, Last(?), Dewalt, Motive Group 10 has Snow, Beast, Hyun, Byul, | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
Action advances with 2-0. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
JyJ-sSak 2-1 Sharp - Mong 2-1 I hope they show soma-dewalt,Mini - yabsab | ||
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Zergxhx
China144 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
BeSt - Ty 2-1 | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Lazyer
United States342 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
Bishop - JD now on steam. Group 1 : Action Group 2 : Sharp Group 3 : JyJ Group 4 : BeSt Group 5 : BishOp Group 6 : Light Group 7 : Queen Group 8 : Mini - Yabsab Group 9 : Soma - ( Leta - Motive ) Group 10 : Snow - Beast | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2259 Posts
On January 28 2023 15:44 HOLYBATS wrote: BeSt's streak continues.Well deserved.Played good macro game. Bishop - JD now on steam. Group 1 : Action Group 2 : Sharp Group 3 : JyJ Group 4 : BeSt Group 5 : BishOp Group 6 : Light Group 7 : Queen - Ggaemo 1P 4T 2Z | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
5P 4T 3Z | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
Group 2 : Sharp Group 3 : JyJ Group 4 : BeSt Group 5 : BishOp Group 6 : Light Group 7 : Queen Group 8 : Mini Group 9 : Soma Group 10 : SnOw Group 11 : Ample Group 12 : Bisu SnOw - Beast on stream.1-1 SnOw - Beast 2-1 Soma - Leta on stream. 0-0 Soma - Leta 2-0 Bisu - BarrackS on stream.0-0 Bisu - BarrackS 2-0 Shuttle - Ample on stream.1-1 Shuttle - Ample 1-2 | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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Miragee
8497 Posts
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On January 28 2023 18:56 Miragee wrote: That timing push by Barracks looked so scary but Bisu crushed it. :o That was an all-in that's why it's scary. Ample advances in the last group, which means only JD and Shuttle stumble on the first day, which seems about right as they are the most fragile among tier 1 players. Day 2 should be fun with tier 2 & 3 players scrambling over each other | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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Simplistik
2002 Posts
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On January 28 2023 21:01 Simplistik wrote: Would someone be able to link to some spoiler-free-ish qualifier vods? https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/97584458 | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
Personally it seemed Afreeca was trying to cram all the mid to low tier Terrans into a few groups so not too many of them qualify? Kind of backfired as JD and Shuttle lost to mid to low tier Terrans and there are 7 terrans qualified already inc seeds. My opinion as to 12 strongest players left: JD (easy group predicted), Ssak, Shuttle, Mong, Stork, Free, Barracks, Beast, Sacsri, Shine, Mind, TY They might not all advance bc Afreeca might cram Terrans into the same groups again... Might also see Stork, Shuttle and Free get easy groups due to low Protoss representation so far | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
T: Mong, Barracks, Mind, Ssak, Hiya, Scan, TY P: Shuttle, Stork, Free, Horang2, Dear, YSC Z: JD, Shine, Sacsri, ggaemo, beast Too many good Terrans left for day 2. We're looking at another Terran dominated ASL. | ||
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shaka0110
3 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
I really hope TY will be able to advance tomorrow. Crossing fingers for a relatively easy group draw  | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On January 29 2023 03:12 Mutaller wrote: BaBy was is the finals of his group! I think if he has a good shot of qualifying! This man just got out of the military wow And took a game off Best! I hope tomorrow goes well for him. =) | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
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redknights
206 Posts
Challonge bracket links: https://www.fmkorea.com/search.php?mid=starcraft&document_srl=5442997157 notables: Grp1: Ssak, Horang2, Kop Grp2: ggaemo, Hyun, Gorush (??? not sure ggaemo warrants this easy of a group) Grp3: Shuttle, Sea, 815 Grp4: Free, Ruin, Zelot, Ziggy (IMO Free and Ruin are better than everyone in Grp2) | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On January 29 2023 09:02 redknights wrote: 2nd and final day of ASL qualifiers starting Challonge bracket links: https://www.fmkorea.com/search.php?mid=starcraft&document_srl=5442997157 notables: Grp1: Ssak, Horang2, Kop Grp2: ggaemo, Hyun, Gorush (??? not sure ggaemo warrants this easy of a group) Another thing I noticed is that the number of players seems to decline compared to last season. No? In Ggaemo group, he literally gets to start at the Ro8 lol. Shuttle also gets an easy group, the only notable player is 815 (not counting Sea lol) | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
Also who the hell is Eren Sertkaya in group 1? A foreigner just popped up to play ASL quals out of nowhere (and actually got a win)? | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
Grp6: Shine, Movie, Scan, Calm, Paralyze (Shine and Movie better than everyone in Grp2, also why Shine, Movie and Scan on same side of bracket???) ggaemo eliminated, we're going to get a god-awful player in ASL due to crappy groupmaking edit: apparently the groups for day 1 and day 2 were made in advance (stupid idea) | ||
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RMuSt
Russian Federation178 Posts
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redknights
206 Posts
Grp7: Mong, Beast, Artuser, yabsab Grp8: Stork, Killer, Leta | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On January 29 2023 11:14 redknights wrote: Grp5: TY, Hiya, Tossgirl (rigged for TY?) Grp6: Shine, Movie, Scan, Calm, Paralyze (Shine and Movie better than everyone in Grp2, also why Shine, Movie and Scan on same side of bracket???) ggaemo eliminated, we're going to get a god-awful player in ASL due to crappy groupmaking edit: apparently the groups for day 1 and day 2 were made in advance (stupid idea) i agree these are the nost poorly balanced groups ive seen since asl started. these groups are very unbalanced with a lot of asl caliber players thrown together and in other groups where its one or two. reallly weird groups. also a bunch of mid/low tier pros decided not to participate. think of speed and nOOB for example. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On January 29 2023 10:26 TMNT wrote: Lmao Horang2 already lost to an unknown player. Also who the hell is Eren Sertkaya in group 1? A foreigner just popped up to play ASL quals out of nowhere (and actually got a win)? he lost to promise. not exactly unknown but he is considered joker tier. below jack, king and god. huge upset. | ||
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
On January 29 2023 09:02 redknights wrote: 2nd and final day of ASL qualifiers starting Challonge bracket links: https://www.fmkorea.com/search.php?mid=starcraft&document_srl=5442997157 notables: Grp1: Ssak, Horang2, Kop Grp2: ggaemo, Hyun, Gorush (??? not sure ggaemo warrants this easy of a group) Grp3: Shuttle, Sea, 815 Grp4: Free, Ruin, Zelot, Ziggy (IMO Free and Ruin are better than everyone in Grp2) regarding result of a group + Show Spoiler + Looks like ggaemo lost though Regarding Day group E + Show Spoiler + Kim Carrier beat toss girl! I did not know he was good enough to compete. Sure Tossgirl isn't the strongest but wow Group E has Khala, Hiya and BaBy all players that I like only one goes through | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On January 29 2023 12:14 redknights wrote: Bisu scoreboard watching: https://play.afreecatv.com/rlaxordyd/244752865 Grp7: Mong, Beast, Artuser, yabsab Grp8: Stork, Killer, Leta Byul is also in group 7 | ||
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Samsakzerg
61 Posts
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redknights
206 Posts
Grp10: JD, Motive, Pusan, Rock Stork lost his first round match and is eliminated Sea over 815 and into Grp3 finals Free loses to Zelot in Grp4 TY vs Hiya in Grp5 finals We're set to get like 5-6 Protoss total in ASL | ||
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2sxy4u
9 Posts
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ultim
2 Posts
On January 29 2023 13:13 2sxy4u wrote: When will afreeca cast start guys, cant seem find the starting hour 14시 6:00 CET | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1678 Posts
we all saw last season that lights victory was a fluke, Rain clearly the more talented player Light won't reach a top 4 ever again sad Rain isnt playing this season fuck man Hoping Ty qualifies that would make my night Officially can say Stork is WASHED | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
Group 13: SSak Group 14: HyuN Group 15: Shuttle Group 16: Ruin Group 17: HiyA Group 18: Shine Group 19: Mong Group 20: Stork - Leta Group 21: Mind - Huro Group 20: JD - Motive | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On January 29 2023 15:23 HOLYBATS wrote: It seems Dewalt did not participate today. Group 13: SSak Group 14: HyuN Group 15: Shuttle Group 16: Ruin Group 17: HiyA - TY Group 18: Shine - Paralyze Group 19: Mong - Beast Dewalt lost to Ruin in the first round group 16 | ||
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On January 29 2023 14:11 ShowTheLights wrote: we all saw last season that lights victory was a fluke, Rain clearly the more talented player Light won't reach a top 4 ever again sad Rain isnt playing this season fuck man Hoping Ty qualifies that would make my night Officially can say Stork is WASHED Interesting take, from what I've seen lately Light is slightly behind Royal if not at the same level I don't see how Light's win can be considered a fluke. I agree Stork is mostly done, unfortunately for him Protoss is by far the worst race atm and he doesn't seem to have the multitasking to keep up. My top 4 players atm are Royal, Light, Snow, Hero. Then again I am just an spectator. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
On January 29 2023 15:52 prosatan wrote: Where is Jd ?!?!?! He will play with Motive on Group 22 Final. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
On January 29 2023 15:46 TMNT wrote: Dewalt lost to Ruin in the first round group 16 Oh Eren Sertkaya performed better than him lol | ||
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
On January 29 2023 15:57 HOLYBATS wrote: He will play with Motive on Group 22 Final. Please JD win !!!!!! | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
Group 14: HyuN Group 15: Shuttle Group 16: Ruin Group 17: HiyA Group 18: Shine Group 19: Mong Group 20: Stork Group 21: Mind Group 22: JD Group 23: BarrackS Group 24: Sacsri | ||
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
On January 29 2023 16:53 HOLYBATS wrote: Group 13: SSak Group 14: HyuN Group 15: Shuttle Group 16: Ruin Group 17: HiyA Group 18: Shine Group 19: Mong Group 20: Stork - Leta Group 21: Mind - Huro Group 20: JD - Motive Please update with the final score HOLYBATS, after the games  | ||
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Lazyer
United States342 Posts
(taken from bisu's stream) T g8 stork 2-0 leta U g9 idk these names V g10 jd 2-0 motive W g11 barracks 2-0 X g12 sacsri 2-0 piano yayyy barracks advanced!!! P 7, T 12, Z 9 according to bisu's notepad (with seeds) | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
Leta over stork would be awesome but odds in favor of Stork. Barracks odds over Hm but Hm can have surprisingly high peaks. Sacsri vs Piano could go either way. YSC vs Mind I favor YSC for his micro but mind for his game sense. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
no seeding system at all, huh? stinks  | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Terran [12]: RoyaL (former champion) Rush Ample BishOp JyJ Light Sharp sSak Hiya Mong Mind BarrackS Zerg [9]: hero Soulkey Action Soma ZerO HyuN Shine Jaedong Sacsri Protoss [7]: Best Bisu Mini Snow Shuttle Ruin Stork --- Brace for TvTs, and someone please use these stats to call out Artosis on his "P strong T weak -_-" protests. If it's true that there was little thought put into the seeding, that would explain the weird groups. sSak apparently had a completely free group with no known names, while Stork/Leta/Killer had to battle it out in another. Kind of shitty quals this season overall. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50110 Posts
On January 29 2023 15:53 Malongo wrote: Interesting take, from what I've seen lately Light is slightly behind Royal if not at the same level I don't see how Light's win can be considered a fluke. I agree Stork is mostly done, unfortunately for him Protoss is by far the worst race atm and he doesn't seem to have the multitasking to keep up. My top 4 players atm are Royal, Light, Snow, Hero. Then again I am just an spectator. It's not an interesting take, it's a bad one, it wasn't even the first time rain got 4-0'd by light in a finals of an offline tournament. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50110 Posts
On January 29 2023 19:34 RowdierBob wrote: The state of Protoss in BW is pretty grim atm. Beyond Snow, Mini, Bisu and Best the quality is really poor. Honestly if you strip the other races down they're not more healthy either, ASL usually ends up with high terran population and most of them end up being fodder wins for better zerg and protoss players. Terran really only has Light Rush and Royal. Zerg may be healthier in that aspect but most of the players forms are like phases of the moon, they have either ridiculous hot streaks which break into constant middling results mostly due to zvz eliminations. Especially true for zero soulkey and i basically described Soma. | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
Edit: Or if Rush can finally do it this season that'd be cool too. | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On January 29 2023 20:57 arbiter_md wrote: Any list with notable names that failed to qualify? Rain and EffOrt did not even sign up, so both are notable absentees. Known names who went but lost in qualifiers, and how: + Show Spoiler + Rain Did not sign up. EffOrt Did not sign up. Pusan Lost 1-2 to an unknown player on day 1 (이호열), and then lost 0-2 to Protoss player Rock on day 2 (who was in turn promptly wrecked by Jaedong). Piano Lost 1-2 to an unknown player on day 1 (강현우), and then he beat Modesty on day 2 before losing 0-2 to Sacsri in the finals. ggaemo beat Calm, but then lost 0-2 to Zerg player ZerO in the finals of day 1 (thus ZerO qualified for ASL), then lost to a Zerg player called Yerim2 on day 2 in the semifinals. I didn't see the games, but ZvZ is volatile. HyuN eventually beat Yerrim2 2-0 in the finals to advance to ASL. Basically Yerim just played ZvZ gatekeeper for ggaemo before falling to Hyun of all people. I feel bad for Gasp Zerg, but man... not a good showing. Calm is barely notable these days, but he played and lost, first to ggaemo and then to Chinese player Mihu. free lost 0-2 to Mong on day 1, and lost 1-2 to Zerg player ZeLoT on day 2. RIP dragon legacy. Horang2 lost 0-2 to Light on day 1, then he got 2-0'd by an unknown player (김성민) on day 2. 김성민 proceeded to make it all the way to the finals only to get dupstered by sSak. Movie is barely a notable player any more, but he went 0-2 against Protoss player SRiCH on day 1 and then 0-2 against Scan on day 2. Scan lost 1-2 to sSak on day 1 (the whole group was just a sSak/Scan/JyJ TvT slugfest), and then lost 0-2 to Shine on day 2. BaBy / TY lost 1-2 in the finals of day 1 against Best. He then lost 1-2 in the finals of day 2 against Hiya. Not bad for someone who hasn't been practicing, but also not surprising. Leta lost 0-2 to Soma on day 1, and 0-2 to Stork on day 2, both times in the finals of his group. Tough luck. Foreign players Dewalt and Ziggy also signed up. Dewalt lost to Soma and Ruin (oof, tough matches), and Ziggy lost to Mong on day 1 and some unknown player on day 2. Liquipedia also says that Last played on day 1, but this is incorrect. It's just someone with the same name as him. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
Last went 0-2 in his first game on day 1 against a player called Tank 박단원, and while he apparently signed up for day 2, the brackets don't show him playing any games. I saw this on liquipedia also but it needs to be corrected. 김성현 is a very popular Korean name and here's just a player with the same name as Last. He's in civil service now and he never made any attempt to play competitive BW since his retirement. Also Last even with one arm available wouldn't lose in the first round of the qualifier haha | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On January 29 2023 19:45 BLinD-RawR wrote: Honestly if you strip the other races down they're not more healthy either, ASL usually ends up with high terran population and most of them end up being fodder wins for better zerg and protoss players. Terran really only has Light Rush and Royal. Zerg may be healthier in that aspect but most of the players forms are like phases of the moon, they have either ridiculous hot streaks which break into constant middling results mostly due to zvz eliminations. Especially true for zero soulkey and i basically described Soma. Prior to season 14 I'd say you'd be sleeping on JyJ with that comment but currently I feel he's fallen a little bit and is now closer to Mong, Ssak and Sharp and further away from Royal, Rush and Light. For zerg I am surprised Effort didn't play Qualifiers. He has been performing well in proleagues. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
On January 29 2023 22:45 RJBTV wrote: Prior to season 14 I'd say you'd be sleeping on JyJ with that comment but currently I feel he's fallen a little bit and is now closer to Mong, Ssak and Sharp and further away from Royal, Rush and Light. For zerg I am surprised Effort didn't play Qualifiers. He has been performing well in proleagues. On the top top level (think solid major proleague) Zerg slightly outnumber the Terran and Protoss It's at the level right below (K League w occasional appearances in major proleague) that Protoss takes a nosedive. Unlike Terran who have a lot of borderline players (JyJ, Sharp, Ssak, Mong, Mind, Barracks), Protoss has only Shuttle and Stork with occasionally Free and Rain who are unreliable due to motivation or health or both. It's really telling that Motive and YSC can almost always nail down a spot in K League - there just isn't that much competition for Protoss slots. It was even worse for Protoss about a year ago when Rain was inactive, Stork "retired" and tried Youtube stuff, Free was in and out injured, and Bisu disappeared for coingate Effort has announced he can't play in ASL due to his wrists not being able to hold up in bo5/bo7 sets | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On January 29 2023 21:47 Aylear wrote: Rain and EffOrt did not even sign up, so both are notable absentees. Known names who went but lost in qualifiers, and how: + Show Spoiler + Rain Did not sign up. EffOrt Did not sign up. Pusan Lost 1-2 to an unknown player on day 1 (이호열), and then lost 0-2 to Protoss player Rock on day 2 (who was in turn promptly wrecked by Jaedong). Piano Lost 1-2 to an unknown player on day 1 (강현우), and then he beat Modesty on day 2 before losing 0-2 to Sacsri in the finals. ggaemo beat Calm, but then lost 0-2 to Zerg player ZerO in the finals of day 1 (thus ZerO qualified for ASL), then lost to a Zerg player called Yerim2 on day 2 in the semifinals. I didn't see the games, but ZvZ is volatile. HyuN eventually beat Yerrim2 2-0 in the finals to advance to ASL. Basically Yerim just played ZvZ gatekeeper for ggaemo before falling to Hyun of all people. I feel bad for Gasp Zerg, but man... not a good showing. Calm is barely notable these days, but he played and lost, first to ggaemo and then to Chinese player Mihu. free lost 0-2 to Mong on day 1, and lost 1-2 to Zerg player ZeLoT on day 2. RIP dragon legacy. Horang2 lost 0-2 to Light on day 1, then he got 2-0'd by an unknown player (김성민) on day 2. 김성민 proceeded to make it all the way to the finals only to get dupstered by sSak. Movie is barely a notable player any more, but he went 0-2 against Protoss player SRiCH on day 1 and then 0-2 against Scan on day 2. Scan lost 1-2 to sSak on day 1 (the whole group was just a sSak/Scan/JyJ TvT slugfest), and then lost 0-2 to Shine on day 2. BaBy / TY lost 1-2 in the finals of day 1 against Best. He then lost 1-2 in the finals of day 2 against Hiya. Not bad for someone who hasn't been practicing, but also not surprising. Leta lost 0-2 to Soma on day 1, and 0-2 to Stork on day 2, both times in the finals of his group. Tough luck. Foreign players Dewalt and Ziggy also signed up. Dewalt lost to Soma and Ruin (oof, tough matches), and Ziggy lost to Mong on day 1 and some unknown player on day 2. Liquipedia also says that Last played on day 1, but this is incorrect. It's just someone with the same name as him. Thanks for the summary! | ||
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
Makes me fall in love even more with Flash's work ethic and commitment to the game. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
1: Mini, Queen, Light, Snow, Soma, Bisu 2: Best, Action, Sharp, Shuttle, JyJ, Shine 3: Mong, Stork, Ssak, Mind, JD, Barracks 4: Sacsri, Ample, Hiya, Ruin, Hyun, Bishop somewhat even overall Best better than rest of Tier 2, Shine weaker than rest of Tier 2 Barracks and Mind on the lower end of Tier 3 Sacsri is best in Tier 4 by far, might create a group of death if he's placed in a group w a bunch of Terrans Source: https://www.fmkorea.com/index.php?mid=starcraft&document_srl=5444148701 | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On January 29 2023 19:45 BLinD-RawR wrote: Honestly if you strip the other races down they're not more healthy either, ASL usually ends up with high terran population and most of them end up being fodder wins for better zerg and protoss players. Terran really only has Light Rush and Royal. Zerg may be healthier in that aspect but most of the players forms are like phases of the moon, they have either ridiculous hot streaks which break into constant middling results mostly due to zvz eliminations. Especially true for zero soulkey and i basically described Soma. I disagree. From what I see Protoss only has 1 competitive player atm (Snow) while the other 3 on that list are just cannon fodder. Based on the last season of KCM racewars (which is not a starleague but still competitive) Mini, Bisu, Best and Shuttle get stomped by all the other top 4 T and Z. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/wgaitLp.png) | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
these qualis are brutal sometimes, man.. | ||
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townhouse
United States26 Posts
On January 29 2023 21:47 Aylear wrote: Rain and EffOrt did not even sign up, so both are notable absentees. Known names who went but lost in qualifiers, and how: + Show Spoiler + Rain Did not sign up. EffOrt Did not sign up. Pusan Lost 1-2 to an unknown player on day 1 (이호열), and then lost 0-2 to Protoss player Rock on day 2 (who was in turn promptly wrecked by Jaedong). Piano Lost 1-2 to an unknown player on day 1 (강현우), and then he beat Modesty on day 2 before losing 0-2 to Sacsri in the finals. ggaemo beat Calm, but then lost 0-2 to Zerg player ZerO in the finals of day 1 (thus ZerO qualified for ASL), then lost to a Zerg player called Yerim2 on day 2 in the semifinals. I didn't see the games, but ZvZ is volatile. HyuN eventually beat Yerrim2 2-0 in the finals to advance to ASL. Basically Yerim just played ZvZ gatekeeper for ggaemo before falling to Hyun of all people. I feel bad for Gasp Zerg, but man... not a good showing. Calm is barely notable these days, but he played and lost, first to ggaemo and then to Chinese player Mihu. free lost 0-2 to Mong on day 1, and lost 1-2 to Zerg player ZeLoT on day 2. RIP dragon legacy. Horang2 lost 0-2 to Light on day 1, then he got 2-0'd by an unknown player (김성민) on day 2. 김성민 proceeded to make it all the way to the finals only to get dupstered by sSak. Movie is barely a notable player any more, but he went 0-2 against Protoss player SRiCH on day 1 and then 0-2 against Scan on day 2. Scan lost 1-2 to sSak on day 1 (the whole group was just a sSak/Scan/JyJ TvT slugfest), and then lost 0-2 to Shine on day 2. BaBy / TY lost 1-2 in the finals of day 1 against Best. He then lost 1-2 in the finals of day 2 against Hiya. Not bad for someone who hasn't been practicing, but also not surprising. Leta lost 0-2 to Soma on day 1, and 0-2 to Stork on day 2, both times in the finals of his group. Tough luck. Foreign players Dewalt and Ziggy also signed up. Dewalt lost to Soma and Ruin (oof, tough matches), and Ziggy lost to Mong on day 1 and some unknown player on day 2. Liquipedia also says that Last played on day 1, but this is incorrect. It's just someone with the same name as him. I think 김성민 is Promise. Artosis plays him and calls him a "high amateur" here: Here is his g1 final vs sSak: https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/97622340?change_second=875 | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
On January 29 2023 23:04 redknights wrote: On the top top level (think solid major proleague) Zerg slightly outnumber the Terran and Protoss It's at the level right below (K League w occasional appearances in major proleague) that Protoss takes a nosedive. Unlike Terran who have a lot of borderline players (JyJ, Sharp, Ssak, Mong, Mind, Barracks), Protoss has only Shuttle and Stork with occasionally Free and Rain who are unreliable due to motivation or health or both. It's really telling that Motive and YSC can almost always nail down a spot in K League - there just isn't that much competition for Protoss slots. It was even worse for Protoss about a year ago when Rain was inactive, Stork "retired" and tried Youtube stuff, Free was in and out injured, and Bisu disappeared for coingate Effort has announced he can't play in ASL due to his wrists not being able to hold up in bo5/bo7 sets I think this is fairly spot on. Terran and Zerg have a stronger middle tier. There are no good protoss players once you get past the main four (Mini, Bisu, Best, Snow). And TBH, those four seem to struggle against the top T and Z players in some recent events (KCM, UBE etc). I hope I'm wrong but we might get to the ro8 this year with no protoss players. | ||
GTR
51431 Posts
On January 30 2023 09:15 townhouse wrote: I think 김성민 is Promise. Artosis plays him and calls him a "high amateur" here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ZZS4qhwvI Here is his g1 final vs sSak: https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/97622340?change_second=875 Also 강현우 =  First | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EMmJBbT.png) I made a list of notable players with age profile with respective tiers (relatively ofc). Clearly Protoss are the weakest among all tiers. Their tier 1 players (major proleague materials) wouldn't collectively beat their counterparts in T and Z (ASL and KCM records show). There's not a clear difference between tier 2 and 3, but here you can see where it gets really dire for Protoss. Not only do they lack in numbers and quality, the age of the players doesn't look good. Stork and Free are the oldest to play the last ASL and this one. And it's kind of shocking that next year that title will belong to Bisu and Best. Tier 4 is not really relevant anyway, but you can see they're either inactive (Movie, Horang2, Noob...) or are just there because there's no one else (YSC, Motive). The only hope is Ruin and Dear can improve but I wouldn't bet on that. Also kind of mental that Flash is in the younger side of the player pool eh? Now actually looking at this, Terran is kind of scary isn't it? Ssak and Mong can be moved up to tier 2 and Barracks is improving and their tier 4 players are very young. Even Zerg can't compete with that. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
Other than him, Mini is obviously a champion but super inconsistent, and I really can't see Bisu or especially Best making it to the finals. | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1417 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2259 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
confusion abound  /s | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1417 Posts
That is an achievement that can NEVER be bested... So if there are no P winners forever more it will still be fair. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
On January 31 2023 05:14 HOLYBATS wrote: BW pro scene is broken. They care viewership more than tournaments. There is no professional scene. BW players are literally streamers who make most of their money from non-tournaments. There are no pro-teams or sponsors paying them a salary. They need viewers to donate to them to survive. This is why I can't get mad at the Starcraft university system because it gave BW pros a chance to make very good money while doing something related to BW. People like Rain only came back to play BW (and thus ASL) bc of the university scene. That being said, ASL has enough prestige that players who want the glory of being a champion are going to chase after it, and the prize money is decent | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On January 29 2023 23:04 redknights wrote: Effort has announced he can't play in ASL due to his wrists not being able to hold up in bo5/bo7 sets T_T god killer ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nhrMEhY.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/lewstJA.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/KYh7quO.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3Jh1n6f.jpg) | ||
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namkraft
445 Posts
On January 30 2023 22:07 TMNT wrote: I made a list of notable players with age profile with respective tiers (relatively ofc). Clearly Protoss are the weakest among all tiers. Nice chart. Although I'd say Stork is playing some decent Starcraft in KCM and Major Proleague lately. Maybe not Tier 1 but Tier 2 isn't far-fetched. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On January 30 2023 22:07 TMNT wrote: I'm sorry but what does YoB mean? | ||
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End1ess
Canada73 Posts
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masoka82
Spain594 Posts
On January 30 2023 22:07 TMNT wrote: Thanks for the info! Do you know if there are players with 20 years or so close to tier 4? | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On January 31 2023 16:16 masoka82 wrote: Thanks for the info! Do you know if there are players with 20 years or so close to tier 4? The short answer is NO Hard to know the age of amateur players but to my knowledge there's only UKKZ_Fleta who is 21 years old but he's tier 0 in the university system, which means his level is close to Tossgirl, which means he gets beaten in the first round of the ASL qualifier. Probably lower than Dewalt. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States675 Posts
But, KCM is played on yesteryear figured out maps. I bet Protoss does better than KCM results might indicate. That said, the new 6-8 Valk into mech build is looking almost IMBA in TvZ. And Terrans seem to have gotten really good at surviving until 3/2 in TvP. Eventually, P is going to need to incorporate disruption web into their lategame or they'll just die out as Terrans get better and better at splitting the map. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On January 31 2023 11:07 End1ess wrote: Year of birth oh ok thanks YoB = year of birth, I see | ||
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masoka82
Spain594 Posts
On February 02 2023 07:20 ThunderJunk wrote: If you look at the KCM matches, Royal looks nigh unstoppable, Hero looks amazing, and Protoss looks like cold leftovers. But, KCM is played on yesteryear figured out maps. I bet Protoss does better than KCM results might indicate. That said, the new 6-8 Valk into mech build is looking almost IMBA in TvZ. And Terrans seem to have gotten really good at surviving until 3/2 in TvP. Eventually, P is going to need to incorporate disruption web into their lategame or they'll just die out as Terrans get better and better at splitting the map. Royal lost 2-1 vs Hyuk https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Sanpao_StarLeague_Spring_Cup/4/Korea | ||
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TornadoSteve
1011 Posts
On February 02 2023 07:20 ThunderJunk wrote: Eventually, P is going to need to incorporate disruption web into their lategame or they'll just die out as Terrans get better and better at splitting the map. But a scout is a scout | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
!!?? This convo makes no sense whatsoever. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
517 Posts
pvt = corsair scout = scout scout > corsair | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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TornadoSteve
1011 Posts
On February 02 2023 21:28 Malongo wrote: !!?? This convo makes no sense whatsoever. Not saying you should rush stargate to scout on every single PvT, lol. Especially that most terran are building a bunker at their natural nowadays... But as soon as the map is getting splitted late into the mid gamre, scouts are basically a must at the 2200+ MMR. If you can afford the speed upgrades (going for the jugular), the game play for itself. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On January 29 2023 23:04 redknights wrote: On the top top level (think solid major proleague) Zerg slightly outnumber the Terran and Protoss It's at the level right below (K League w occasional appearances in major proleague) that Protoss takes a nosedive. Unlike Terran who have a lot of borderline players (JyJ, Sharp, Ssak, Mong, Mind, Barracks), Protoss has only Shuttle and Stork with occasionally Free and Rain who are unreliable due to motivation or health or both. It's really telling that Motive and YSC can almost always nail down a spot in K League - there just isn't that much competition for Protoss slots. It was even worse for Protoss about a year ago when Rain was inactive, Stork "retired" and tried Youtube stuff, Free was in and out injured, and Bisu disappeared for coingate Effort has announced he can't play in ASL due to his wrists not being able to hold up in bo5/bo7 sets Getting into a proleague largely comes down to how much funding they're able to bring on average. Kop for example can't win proleague games but brings in a good amount of money. Same with Calm in the top proleague. Motive sometimes wins and brings in a decent amount. Also him being a protoss does help out yeah. Ruin, nOOB, tyson and Movie were mid tier protoss' but they all seem to have quit bar Ruin who came back just for ASL. Before Tyson and Movie quit they'd often get into K league over Motive, Ruin and nOOB. Once they quit the other three got more chances to get in to the point they're now regulars(except when noob and motive quit). I am happy for Motive he gets into K-leagues because I did a lot of funding for moonlight proleague over the past years and there were a few times I was the only one funding. I am glad that has changed. | ||
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TT1
Canada10004 Posts
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On January 30 2023 22:07 TMNT wrote: I made a list of notable players with age profile with respective tiers (relatively ofc). Clearly Protoss are the weakest among all tiers. Their tier 1 players (major proleague materials) wouldn't collectively beat their counterparts in T and Z (ASL and KCM records show). There's not a clear difference between tier 2 and 3, but here you can see where it gets really dire for Protoss. Not only do they lack in numbers and quality, the age of the players doesn't look good. Stork and Free are the oldest to play the last ASL and this one. And it's kind of shocking that next year that title will belong to Bisu and Best. Tier 4 is not really relevant anyway, but you can see they're either inactive (Movie, Horang2, Noob...) or are just there because there's no one else (YSC, Motive). The only hope is Ruin and Dear can improve but I wouldn't bet on that. Also kind of mental that Flash is in the younger side of the player pool eh? Now actually looking at this, Terran is kind of scary isn't it? Ssak and Mong can be moved up to tier 2 and Barracks is improving and their tier 4 players are very young. Even Zerg can't compete with that. If Brain decided to get back into the pro circuit he would be a legit tier 2/3 toss contender. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On February 06 2023 10:19 RJBTV wrote: If Brain decided to get back into the pro circuit he would be a legit tier 2/3 toss contender. I'm still sad that he showed up for one ASL, played super well, and then dropped off the competitive scene completely. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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ThunderJunk
United States675 Posts
I mean really, if T is on 6 bases, you're never gonna do extra damage because your units are cloaked. | ||
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2056 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
On February 08 2023 10:33 FyRe_DragOn wrote: anyone know when the groups are going to be announced? I thought theyd be out by now same question here | ||
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zedus
United States2 Posts
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TMNT
2641 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
On February 10 2023 01:48 TMNT wrote: Word on the streets is that ASL is being delayed because it doesn't get Blizzard's approval, that's why the groups haven't come out yet. Obviously we can't verify it but that's what the Koreans are saying atm. that's absolutely fucking disgusting and insane.. but I wouldn't put it past Activision-Bli$$ard at all.. bunch of greedy, nasty pieces of shit  Hopefully it's just a rumor.. but groups still not being presented is very suspicious for sure.. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
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TT1
Canada10004 Posts
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End1ess
Canada73 Posts
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TT1
Canada10004 Posts
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afreecaTV.Char
United States337 Posts
On February 08 2023 23:19 zedus wrote: What studio is ASL in now? It seemed to change last season. I'd like to attend. Is it in the one in the Lotte world building again? The schedule I have has it listed for the FreecUP studio. Third place match and the finals look like they'll take place at the Jamsil studio. ASL is delayed one week, and should start on February 21. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19227 Posts
On February 10 2023 06:03 afreecaTV.Char wrote: The schedule I have has it listed for the FreecUP studio. Third place match and the finals look like they'll take place at the Jamsil studio. ASL is delayed one week, and should start on February 21. Please share the groups as soon a possible. Thank you! | ||
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Lorch
Germany3677 Posts
What a disgrace, I hope the MS deal goes through and they shutdown Blizz and give all the IPs to different MS studios. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden513 Posts
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ivaylo112
1 Post
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 14 2023 20:15 ivaylo112 wrote: Is 21th Feb confirmed as start date? No, it's something like "if everything goes well we can start on the 21st". But it seems like it's postponed again to 28th with the group coming out on 20th. The group didn't come out today says it all. The fact that the Afreeca can't make an official announcement but we have to hear these information from the players' streams means that even Afreeca can't be sure about a starting date. | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1417 Posts
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parkin
1079 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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afreecaTV.Char
United States337 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
On February 15 2023 11:28 afreecaTV.Char wrote: ASL15 is pushed back to starting on February 28. The Ro24 schedule may also be a little hectic, with the last group on March 8, and group selection on March 15. So that means Group Draw on the 28th? Thanks for letting us know! | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
 Bli$$ardutter scum | ||
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
On February 15 2023 23:13 Nirli wrote: Flash coming back from the military and keeping silent + this strange delay = sounds like a juicy coincidence. Nirli remember that we already have 24 players... Maybe someone already qualified will do Flash a favour and let him play | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On February 16 2023 19:12 prosatan wrote: Nirli remember that we already have 24 players... Maybe someone already qualified will do Flash a favour and let him play Some | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
On February 16 2023 19:12 prosatan wrote: Nirli remember that we already have 24 players... Maybe someone already qualified will do Flash a favour and let him play I hear unexpected wrist injuries are quite common among most BW pros. Most of them don't seem to get that 400 APM action going. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On February 16 2023 21:04 Nirli wrote: I hear unexpected wrist injuries are quite common among most BW pros. Most of them don't seem to get that 400 APM action going. they are common because they take zero care of their wrists until they get pain. zero knowledge about prevention. talked to some pros about it. most common pain comes in keyboard hand due to wonky wrist flexion and using keyboard stand. thickness of mechanical keyboards also destroys the wrist. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
Group A: Mini , Inguh , Action, sSak - 28th Feb Group B: Bisu , Hyun, Sharp, Barracks - 1st March Group C: soma, Ample, Best, Mind - 3rd March Group D: Snow, Bishop, Shuttle, JD! - 5th March Group E: Queen , Ruin, Shine, Mong - 6th March Group F: Light, Sacsri , JyJ , Stork - 8th March First group will be on 28 february. Let's go JAEDONG!! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50110 Posts
If someone could update LP that would be nice, unfortunately not in a position do much atm | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
Weakest tier 1 PvZ (Snow) + weakest tier 2 player (Shuttle). The tier 4 player doesn't really matter. Last season they chose Snow + Shine thinking it was JvZ but after it didn't work out they took note this time. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
They finally gave Sharp an easy group but his TvT has been so dogcrap lately I can see him choking yet again | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
Group A: Mini , Action Group B: Bisu , Sharp Group C: soma, Best Group D: Snow, JD Group E: Queen , Shine Group F: Light, JyJ On February 20 2023 21:29 TMNT wrote: The groups for JD were rigged three seasons in a row. People predicted this exact group for him after the qualifiers finished lmao. Weakest tier 1 PvZ (Snow) + weakest tier 2 player (Shuttle). The tier 4 player doesn't really matter. Last season they chose Snow + Shine thinking it was JvZ but after it didn't work out they took note this time. That's a lot of conspiratorial thoughts. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3677 Posts
Excited to see "retired from ASL" Stork play once again :D Group A: Mini, Action Group B: Bisu, Barracks Group C: soma, Best Group D: Snow, JD Group E: Queen, Shine Group F: Light, Stork (big bias, prob be jyj) | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
I mean, it's almost common knowledge that some popular players are given easy groups to advance to keep up the ratings. That happens in the qualifiers as well. The problem with JD is he's tier 3 so the group selection for him looks more obvious than others (like, if you're tier 1 then selecting the tier 2 and 3 that you're favorable to beat is much easier). - In this case, Snow is the most doable for JD among the tier 1 because Soulkey is already seeded. Notice that Snow was given to JD last season and Soulkey the season before. - The weakest tier 2 are Shine Shuttle and JYJ. They can't give him Shine again because it'd be the exact group of last season, so it's a toss between Shuttle and JYJ and Shuttle is preferred because he's P. - Then because there's 2 Ps already the last one has to be a T, so it's either Ample Hiya or Bishop which obviously doesn't matter. That's how people predicted this exact group (with variations of Ample/Hiya/Bishop) since the qualifiers ended. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On February 21 2023 00:20 TMNT wrote: I mean, it's almost common knowledge that some popular players are given easy groups to advance to keep up the ratings. That happens in the qualifiers as well. The problem with JD is he's tier 3 so the group selection for him looks more obvious than others (like, if you're tier 1 then selecting the tier 2 and 3 that you're favorable to beat is much easier). - In this case, Snow is the most doable for JD among the tier 1 because Soulkey is already seeded. Notice that Snow was given to JD last season and Soulkey the season before. - The weakest tier 2 are Shine Shuttle and JYJ. They can't give him Shine again because it'd be the exact group of last season, so it's a toss between Shuttle and JYJ and Shuttle is preferred because he's P. - Then because there's 2 Ps already the last one has to be a T, so it's either Ample Hiya or Bishop which obviously doesn't matter. That's how people predicted this exact group (with variations of Ample/Hiya/Bishop) since the qualifiers ended. Seeding is common in qualifiers so we don't run into a scenario where half the top dogs eliminate each other and the main tournament is flooded with less skilled players. I don't know how it went this time but usually these groups are drawn as far as I'm aware. It's either randomised or they do a group selection ceremony where they draw the original groups and then allow the players to switch some. Also, only because a particular outcome lines up it doesn't mean they selected the groups by hand to the benefit of certain players. It is possible if they don't draw the groups in public and it has happened accross different sports for sure. I just don't see any evidence in this case (yet), hence I call it a conspiracy for now. | ||
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2056 Posts
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 21 2023 01:34 Miragee wrote: It is possible if they don't draw the groups in public So you're not aware that this is literally the case for every ASL Ro24 group (and qualifiers)? It's either randomised or they do a group selection ceremony where they draw the original groups and then allow the players to switch some. And this is Ro16 that you're talking about. Seeding is common in qualifiers so we don't run into a scenario where half the top dogs eliminate each other and the main tournament is flooded with less skilled players. And this is bordering on Captain Obvious territory. We're not talking about the no.1 or no.2 seeds in qualifiers. We're talking about the whole group(s). Just take a look no further than the groups of this ASL qualifier and see what an abomination it was. Obviously no one can ever definitely prove that the groups were rigged, but "coincidences" have happened too many times that this is almost common knowledge now. And the funny thing is, very few are against it because honestly (me neither), who doesn't want popular players to go deep in tournaments? | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
On February 21 2023 01:34 Miragee wrote: Seeding is common in qualifiers so we don't run into a scenario where half the top dogs eliminate each other and the main tournament is flooded with less skilled players. I don't know how it went this time but usually these groups are drawn as far as I'm aware. It's either randomised or they do a group selection ceremony where they draw the original groups and then allow the players to switch some. Also, only because a particular outcome lines up it doesn't mean they selected the groups by hand to the benefit of certain players. It is possible if they don't draw the groups in public and it has happened accross different sports for sure. I just don't see any evidence in this case (yet), hence I call it a conspiracy for now. It is not random. Former player and current Afreeca employee 910 makes the groups. He also makes the qualifying groups. Round of 24 groups are made based on the 4 tiers corresponding to ASL points. Group selection ceremony is only Round of 16. Also the Korean community itself believes there are biased groups made to favor certain players, they even have a term for it "부커조" = 부커 (booker / booking) + 조 (Group). Why wouldn't Afreeca manipulate it so that the more popular streamers made it to ASL and thus get more interest/viewership? | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
- the first game is on Neo Heartbreak Ridge (Terrans already crying haha) - winners and losers match on Dark Origin/76/Nemesis with each player bans 1 of the 3 (so either Dark Origin or Nemesis then) - decider match on Sylphid/Retro/Vermeer. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50110 Posts
And well anything can happen in Bo1s | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
Pretty balanced this season, tbh. Should be fun to watch. Absolutely hate that it's still full bo1, but that will probably never change, so.. yeah.. PROTOSS FIGHTING ! ! ! | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
On February 20 2023 20:33 prosatan wrote: We have the groups ! Group A: Mini , Inguh , Action, sSak - 28th Feb Group B: Bisu , Hyun, Sharp, Barracks - 1st March Group C: soma, Ample, Best, Mind - 3rd March Group D: Snow, Bishop, Shuttle, JD! - 5th March Group E: Queen , Ruin, Shine, Mong - 6th March Group F: Light, Sacsri , JyJ , Stork - 8th March First group will be on 28 february. Let's go JAEDONG!! Wow...pretty wild. Mini and Queen got off kinda easy, no? That group C though! Feeling soma and Best but I hope Ample shows some good games. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On February 21 2023 02:04 redknights wrote: It is not random. Former player and current Afreeca employee 910 makes the groups. He also makes the qualifying groups. Round of 24 groups are made based on the 4 tiers corresponding to ASL points. Group selection ceremony is only Round of 16. Also the Korean community itself believes there are biased groups made to favor certain players, they even have a term for it "부커조" = 부커 (booker / booking) + 조 (Group). Why wouldn't Afreeca manipulate it so that the more popular streamers made it to ASL and thus get more interest/viewership? Well, fair enough, thanks for correcting me. That's bullshit then. Imho Ro24 groups should be drawn. For the qualifier I get it, as I said, and I think that's fair. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
Mini , Inguh , Action, sSak - 28th Feb || Action and Mini for 1 and 2. Order depends on Action or Mini having a particularly good day. Group B: Bisu , Hyun, Sharp, Barracks - 1st March || Bisu and Barracks. Bisu should get out without a doubt. Barracks has really high peaks in TvT and I think it is going to come down to Sharp vs Barracks TvT, which I give to Barracks. Group C: soma, Ample, Best, Mind - 3rd March || Soma and Best are on paper the favorites by quite a bit. Ample can pull off upsets on his good days but it seems unlikely against Soma who is in my opinion #1 Zerg now. Against Mind there's a chance but Mind's favored. I do Hope Ample makes it out! Group D: Snow, Bishop, Shuttle, JD! - 5th March || No doubt, Snow and Jaedong. Group E: Queen , Ruin, Shine, Mong - 6th March || Queen and Mong. Ruin is capable of taking down Shine but I don't think he matches up well against either Queen or Mong. Shine also doesn't match up well against either of them. Group F: Light, Sacsri , JyJ , Stork - 8th March || JyJ and Light. Light on his good days is the #1 player in the tournament, and on his bad days a top 8 player. Can't say the same for the other three. JyJ is particularly strong in TvP so taking him over Stork. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1011 Posts
[B Group D: Snow, Bishop, Shuttle, JD! - 5th March || No doubt, Snow and Jaedong. Snow clear favorite, pretty sure jd is 4th favorite. Again, its bo1 but still... Snow and shutle, or snow and bishop imo. prosatan, i really hope to be wrong also | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
Sure we have streams we can tune into now, but it's just not the same. The biggest tournament in the world needs a good story too and Group Draw is historically a big part of it imo. I hope ASL doesn't do this again or makes up for it in another way of good pre-game and/or post-game interviews for example or like videos shorts for the Ro8 players. Make it a bit more personal. Let the fans connect with their favorite players. Edit: Group Draw may happen for Ro16? | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
I'd give BishOp at most a 1% to advance. | ||
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2056 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
On February 21 2023 11:44 FyRe_DragOn wrote: group draw ceremony is traditionally ro16, then the random draw with the balls for ro8. this is nothing unusual Right. Thanks. I guess it's been too long without ASL I had to find something to complain about lol | ||
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
On February 21 2023 08:02 RJBTV wrote: Group A: Mini , Inguh , Action, sSak - 28th Feb || Action and Mini for 1 and 2. Order depends on Action or Mini having a particularly good day. Group B: Bisu , Hyun, Sharp, Barracks - 1st March || Bisu and Barracks. Bisu should get out without a doubt. Barracks has really high peaks in TvT and I think it is going to come down to Sharp vs Barracks TvT, which I give to Barracks. Group C: soma, Ample, Best, Mind - 3rd March || Soma and Best are on paper the favorites by quite a bit. Ample can pull off upsets on his good days but it seems unlikely against Soma who is in my opinion #1 Zerg now. Against Mind there's a chance but Mind's favored. I do Hope Ample makes it out! Group D: Snow, Bishop, Shuttle, JD! - 5th March || No doubt, Snow and Jaedong. Group E: Queen , Ruin, Shine, Mong - 6th March || Queen and Mong. Ruin is capable of taking down Shine but I don't think he matches up well against either Queen or Mong. Shine also doesn't match up well against either of them. Group F: Light, Sacsri , JyJ , Stork - 8th March || JyJ and Light. Light on his good days is the #1 player in the tournament, and on his bad days a top 8 player. Can't say the same for the other three. JyJ is particularly strong in TvP so taking him over Stork. Agree 100 % RJBTV ! Please be right with prediction on group D | ||
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Lazyer
United States342 Posts
Also lmao Stork... wonder if he's going to retire again after his group. Not easy by any means. | ||
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Samsakzerg
61 Posts
On February 21 2023 11:02 Peeano wrote: Without a doubt JD >>> BishOp. Snow and Shuttle are the favorites in their group though, Snow by a large margin. I'd give BishOp at most a 1% to advance. JD will come out 1st unless Snow plays his A game PVZ. JD has been steadily improvely, stacking up games after games in the pro league format with the top pros every night. His ZvT is still shaky, but even that is improving. His ZVZ ZVP are returning to top form. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On February 21 2023 16:18 Samsakzerg wrote: JD will come out 1st unless Snow plays his A game PVZ. JD has been steadily improvely, stacking up games after games in the pro league format with the top pros every night. His ZvT is still shaky, but even that is improving. His ZVZ ZVP are returning to top form. I hope you're right, JD has had many, many disappointing losses especially in his famous ZvZ ever since SC2 came out. I still remember him losing to HoGiL in Bacchus 2010 and then to Hydra in the MSL of the same year... In ASL he beat Flash only to lose to Action after, and of course in the last one he got eliminated by Shine. Whenever Tastosis mentions JvZ, I kinda shake my head. What you said sounds promising though! | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
Everyone should check out the daily proleagues thread to update the latest form of these players :d | ||
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TornadoSteve
1011 Posts
On February 21 2023 11:02 Peeano wrote: Without a doubt JD >>> BishOp. Snow and Shuttle are the favorites in their group though, Snow by a large margin. I'd give BishOp at most a 1% to advance. I would bet a considerable amount on the guy, with those odds | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On February 21 2023 17:17 IntoTheEmo wrote: I hope you're right, JD has had many, many disappointing losses especially in his famous ZvZ ever since SC2 came out. I still remember him losing to HoGiL in Bacchus 2010 and then to Hydra in the MSL of the same year... In ASL he beat Flash only to lose to Action after, and of course in the last one he got eliminated by Shine. Whenever Tastosis mentions JvZ, I kinda shake my head. What you said sounds promising though! I hear a lot of hype about JD each season and he (almost) never delivers. Combined with Shuttle's sometimes incredible PvZ, I wouldn't bet on him. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On February 21 2023 17:17 IntoTheEmo wrote: I hope you're right, JD has had many, many disappointing losses especially in his famous ZvZ ever since SC2 came out. I still remember him losing to HoGiL in Bacchus 2010 and then to Hydra in the MSL of the same year... In ASL he beat Flash only to lose to Action after, and of course in the last one he got eliminated by Shine. Whenever Tastosis mentions JvZ, I kinda shake my head. What you said sounds promising though! Are you talking about the 2010/2011 MSL which Hydra ended up winning? Because Hydra had an insane ZvZ at the time, I would argue the best ZvZ, mostly carried by his muta vs muta micro at the time. He had so many engagements with his first 6 mutas which he ended up winning... His ZvZ carried him to his MSL victory. I looked up his stats just now and he went 11-3 in ZvZ for that MSL with 2 of the 3 losses coming from JD. Yeah it felt disappointing because everyone expected JvZ but people forget Hydras insane ZvZ peak in this, for the sake of fairness fairly short, time frame. Jaedong really declined overall when SC2 came out and they started to split play time (tbf, so was everyone else to some extend). It was not just his ZvZ. It was just more noticable because it went from "JvZ" to "decent winrate with the usual ZvZ coinflip". And I would argue he has always been struggling with all 3 match ups, ZvT the most, since then, especially in the post-Kespa era. He just never came close again to become the force of nature he used be. If he is indeed improving again, that would make me very happy. One of my absolute favourite players ever. | ||
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Kespa1988
38 Posts
Combined with Shuttle's sometimes incredible PvZ, I wouldn't bet on him. A bit true, although his form has been increasing recently, it is still far from being stable. He has days with ratio 9:1 but also days with ratio 3:7, etc. Personally, I think that JD has enough skills to reach the ASL top four. He happens to win with Bisu or Royal with a nice advantage. What he lacks is the mentality, that sometimes makes him want too much. | ||
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Zografa
177 Posts
About JD - he is top1 on the korean ladder of sponmatches recently(if you isolate for only 2023 results). Playing lots of volume and having decent results vs almost everyone in all matchups. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/DCBoMj3.jpeg) | ||
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TT1
Canada10004 Posts
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On February 22 2023 06:57 TT1 wrote: ~~~~ YEEHAW ASL15WINNERSnow ~~~~ I certainly hope so. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
On February 22 2023 04:25 Zografa wrote: Nice we have the groups finally. About JD - he is top1 on the korean ladder of sponmatches recently(if you isolate for only 2023 results). Playing lots of volume and having decent results vs almost everyone in all matchups. I watched UBE Royal vs Soma (which is included in the stats). Downright depressing stuff, R was playing maybe at 50%, S had like 1 good game in which he won, the rest were pure throws. Also, S was not GGing when it was over so much, it was kind of BM. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
On February 22 2023 06:57 TT1 wrote: ~~~~ YEEHAW ASL15WINNERSnow ~~~~ Based. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
I think he is the only player who played on every RO 24 of ASL ! Well done macro god - Best ! | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
Don't think it's even remotely possible. This is the stubborn guy who refuses to build reavers in late game PvZ and then consistently loses said games. So unless it's somehow Snow vs. Light in the finals, you can forget it. Also, why does Snow have so many fans? He was at the forefront of effectively shutting jinjin's YouTube channel down. jinjin, the guy who was selflessly bringing cool moments from Korean Brood War and pro streams to the foreign scene. His videos got a few thousands views, at most. But for some reason, Snow and other pros felt it was necessary to put a cork in jinjin's work. Awful. Unforgivable, even. Snow's a jackass. And his glasses are too fucking big. I hope he loses in the groups. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
With my predictions I'll go: A: Mini, Action B: Bisu, Sharp (I'm a Sharp believer) C: Soma, Best D: SnOw, JD E: ZerO, Ruin F: Light, Stork | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
On February 23 2023 00:02 RogerChillingworth wrote: Don't think it's even remotely possible. This is the stubborn guy who refuses to build reavers in late game PvZ and then consistently loses said games. So unless it's somehow Snow vs. Light in the finals, you can forget it. Also, why does Snow have so many fans? He was at the forefront of effectively shutting jinjin's YouTube channel down. jinjin, the guy who was selflessly bringing cool moments from Korean Brood War and pro streams to the foreign scene. His videos got a few thousands views, at most. But for some reason, Snow and other pros felt it was necessary to put a cork in jinjin's work. Awful. Unforgivable, even. Snow's a jackass. And his glasses are too fucking big. I hope he loses in the groups. Couldn't have said it better. Snow has always been a mid tier player, with some incidental good streaks, i.e. ASL final vs Flash. Extremely overrated, would rather root for mini either playing like a mad genius or ragequitting after one fumble (if I had to pick a P to root for). | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 23 2023 00:02 RogerChillingworth wrote: Don't think it's even remotely possible. This is the stubborn guy who refuses to build reavers in late game PvZ and then consistently loses said games. So unless it's somehow Snow vs. Light in the finals, you can forget it. Also, why does Snow have so many fans? He was at the forefront of effectively shutting jinjin's YouTube channel down. jinjin, the guy who was selflessly bringing cool moments from Korean Brood War and pro streams to the foreign scene. His videos got a few thousands views, at most. But for some reason, Snow and other pros felt it was necessary to put a cork in jinjin's work. Awful. Unforgivable, even. Snow's a jackass. And his glasses are too fucking big. I hope he loses in the groups. Wow. I didn't know foreign fans can be this misinformed, and thick. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 23 2023 00:39 Nirli wrote: Couldn't have said it better. Snow has always been a mid tier player, with some incidental good streaks, i.e. ASL final vs Flash. Extremely overrated, would rather root for mini either playing like a mad genius or ragequitting after one fumble (if I had to pick a P to root for). And here's another one. Every time ASL comes around, there're a bunch of foreign fans who have no knowledge of spongames, proleagues, KCM or UBE, who only watched a few ASL games and think they can deduce everything from that. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
On February 23 2023 00:49 TMNT wrote: And here's another one. Every time ASL comes around, there're a bunch of foreign fans who have no knowledge of spongames, proleagues, KCM or UBE, who only watched a few ASL games and think they can deduce everything from that. I'll bite. Can you please refer me to any major individual achievements of Snow, both KeSPA era or post-KeSPA era? If he is so consistent, which I assume your argument is, how come he has nothing to show for? Maybe he is good for the KR community with the player interviews, but come on... | ||
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TornadoSteve
1011 Posts
Soft, Mini should cruise it without too much problems, Cant see Hiya making it, even with BO1 its unlikely. Would be cool to see sSak in the RO16, he is playing better lately, and by better i mean he doesnt choke as much as he used to. But then again, Mini and Action are too much fun to rail, so im gonna go with Mini // Action also. Group B Someone posted stats on the korean ladder and I was very surprised to see Hyun with a positive winrate with that many games... I never really paid much attention to Hyun, I hope he can get out of this group with Bisu, why not. I used to like Barracks, I thought he was improving fast and steadily for a few seasons now. Dont know whats going on with him lately, poor play is an understatement, could he be injuried? Does anybody knows ? As for Sharp, bye. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1011 Posts
Anyone remembers that ASL game between the 2, ASL 7 iirc ? Last game of the day for a RO8(!) spot, Bo1 final game. Best macroing godly and is slightly ahead, then out of nowhere, decides that the time has come to pull a Best (pretty sure anybody else on the scene, or not, make that move and there is no other possible outcome: the game has been thrown. With Best on the mouse though, it was just another day at the office. Ill try to find the match and post it later to remind myself to not bet on this guy, no matter how good he can be. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 23 2023 00:55 Nirli wrote: I'll bite. Can you please refer me to any major individual achievements of Snow, both KeSPA era or post-KeSPA era? If he is so consistent, which I assume your argument is, how come he has nothing to show for? Maybe he is good for the KR community with the player interviews, but come on... Apart from Bisu JD Stork, there's literally no other current ASL players who achieved anything individually during Kespa era. So I don't know why you brought that up. As for ASL era, he's two-time runner-up. If you only count winning as achievement then he has none, but so does Bisu, Best, Soma. Hero, Rush. Your point is stupid (calling Snow mid-tier) because if he's mid tier then who's top? At this moment he has the best PvT (undoubtedly), the second best PvP (maybe joint best with Mini), and the third best PvZ (behind Bisu and Mini) among the Protosses. | ||
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End1ess
Canada73 Posts
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On February 23 2023 01:30 TMNT wrote: Apart from Bisu JD Stork, there's literally no other current ASL players who achieved anything individually during Kespa era. So I don't know why you brought that up. As for ASL era, he's two-time runner-up. If you only count winning as achievement then he has none, but so does Bisu, Best, Soma. Hero, Rush. Your point is stupid (calling Snow mid-tier) because if he's mid tier then who's top? At this moment he has the best PvT (undoubtedly), the second best PvP (maybe joint best with Mini), and the third best PvZ (behind Bisu and Mini) among the Protosses. Yeah, Snow has made the finals twice and was the player who broke Flash's three ASL winstreak. He is, by far, the player who has achieved the most in ASL without actually winning one. The weird hate from people doesn't really seem to correspond with reality as far as I know, but calling him a mid-tier player is straight up ridiculous. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3677 Posts
On February 23 2023 02:46 End1ess wrote: Sorry, what did Stork individually achieved in Kespa era? Obvious troll is obvious. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Stork/Results | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
On February 23 2023 02:46 End1ess wrote: Sorry, what did Stork individually achieved in Kespa era? He gave us Daniel | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 23 2023 02:52 QOGQOG wrote: Yeah, Snow has made the finals twice and was the player who broke Flash's three ASL winstreak. He is, by far, the player who has achieved the most in ASL without actually winning one. The weird hate from people doesn't really seem to correspond with reality as far as I know, but calling him a mid-tier player is straight up ridiculous. The guy was a bit unlucky that during his peak he was eliminated 3 times by Rain (1 ASL and 2 KSL) during a time Rain was unmatched in PvP. In fact you can say Rain won that ASL because Snow knocked Flash out for him. If not for Rain, Snow would have had 1 or 2 titles for himself. Luck always plays a role in this kind of tournament. For example, current ASL champion Royal (who got beaten up regularly by Snow) avoided TvP all the way during his run last season. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
On February 23 2023 01:30 TMNT wrote: Apart from Bisu JD Stork, there's literally no other current ASL players who achieved anything individually during Kespa era. So I don't know why you brought that up. As for ASL era, he's two-time runner-up. If you only count winning as achievement then he has none, but so does Bisu, Best, Soma. Hero, Rush. Your point is stupid (calling Snow mid-tier) because if he's mid tier then who's top? At this moment he has the best PvT (undoubtedly), the second best PvP (maybe joint best with Mini), and the third best PvZ (behind Bisu and Mini) among the Protosses. If you are qualifying for a lot of tournaments but you aren't winning literally any of them, I would say that you are mid tier, yes. Again, if he is the best at anything, why hasn't he won anything? Is he the unluckiest man alive? Or maybe he just isn't champion material. I brought KeSPA up to look at how he has fared historically, since he did play during that period. Maybe Snow would make a good coach or something like that, if BW had any future that isn't basically freelancing ex-pros. For the recent era, I would say that Rain, Bisu and Mini are the only Protoss players I would call high tier. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
On February 23 2023 03:09 Miragee wrote: What's up with the Snow x Jinjin drama though? I think that's what we should be focussing on. Yeah. If anyone has factual evidence to correct me, I'm all for it. But I was around when it all went down and by all accounts it was Snow who came forward to squash what jinjin was doing. Which to me is absolutely ludicrous for so many reasons. This TMNT guy wasn't even responding to that, I don't think. He's just a Snow lover for gameplay, I guess. But yeah, that whole Snow/jinjin drama reeks of greed and anti-foreigner bias. Like what jinjin was doing literally marketed korean brood war and its players to the foreign scene. Which is repeatedly labeled as "not interested in Starcraft 1" by Blizzard and other bad actors. Shit like this only fuels the narrative, because it's essentially removing the ease of access the west has to korean starcraft. I even think jinjin tried to work something out with the streamers after they complained about him "stealing content" (basically translating and editing stuff from their games) but it was a no-go. For me, this is enough to despise Snow and whoever else was involved unless they were to come forward and admit their mistake. And then reinstate jinjin as God-Emperor. And then give jinjin reparation cash. Again, I'm happy to be wrong. But I remember this shit and it was just another example of why the human race ranks a few notches below chickens. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
Yet by the way: On February 23 2023 03:16 Nirli wrote: For the recent era, I would say that Rain, Bisu and Mini are the only Protoss players I would call high tier. Since you wrote "recent", how come Bisu who never made it into an ASL final can be considered higher than Snow who did it twice? | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On February 23 2023 03:16 Nirli wrote: If you are qualifying for a lot of tournaments but you aren't winning literally any of them, I would say that you are mid tier, yes. Again, if he is the best at anything, why hasn't he won anything? Is he the unluckiest man alive? Or maybe he just isn't champion material. I brought KeSPA up to look at how he has fared historically, since he did play during that period. Maybe Snow would make a good coach or something like that, if BW had any future that isn't basically freelancing ex-pros. For the recent era, I would say that Rain, Bisu and Mini are the only Protoss players I would call high tier. I mean, Snow won stuff with serious competition, just not ASL (e.g. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Sanpao_StarLeague). If you only count ASL, why do you include Bisu in your high tier list? He never won an ASL. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 23 2023 03:20 RogerChillingworth wrote: Yeah. If anyone has factual evidence to correct me, I'm all for it. But I was around when it all went down and by all accounts it was Snow who came forward to squash what jinjin was doing. Which to me is absolutely ludicrous for so many reasons. This TMNT guy wasn't even responding to that, I don't think. He's just a Snow lover for gameplay, I guess. But yeah, that whole Snow/jinjin drama reeks of greed and anti-foreigner bias. Like what jinjin was doing literally marketed korean brood war and its players to the foreign scene. Which is repeatedly labeled as "not interested in Starcraft 1" by Blizzard and other bad actors. Shit like this only fuels the narrative, because it's essentially removing the ease of access the west has to korean starcraft. I even think jinjin tried to work something out with the streamers after they complained about him "stealing content" (basically translating and editing stuff from their games) but it was a no-go. For me, this is enough to despise Snow and whoever else was involved unless they were to come forward and admit their mistake. And then reinstate jinjin as God-Emperor. And then give jinjin reparation cash. Again, I'm happy to be wrong. But I remember this shit and it was just another example of why the human race ranks a few notches below chickens. You know why I called you misinformed, and thick? Because jinjin himself literally had to correct people like you about facts: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/sViqnyX.png) | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
On February 23 2023 03:26 TMNT wrote: You know why I called you misinformed, and thick? Because jinjin himself literally had to correct people like you about facts: "people like me"? who the fuck are you? anyways, looks like your smoking gun is proof that snow was involved before the copyright strike? wow, no further questions your honor. jinjin was a nice guy and i remember him not wanting to drag everyone down into the mud. like he was very accepting of the whole situation. which is why he probably made his content in the first place: altruism! A quality Snow clearly didn't have. KekeEKEkek anyways whatever. fucking hell. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
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redknights
206 Posts
but with everything in Ro24 - best of 1s are super duper volatile (and I hate it) | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
On February 23 2023 03:22 TMNT wrote: Well then obviously your standard for top tier or mid tier is like no one else. The way you count winner as something but runner-up as nothing says more about you than the player. Yet by the way: Since you wrote "recent", how come Bisu who never made it into an ASL final can be considered higher than Snow who did it twice? I'm giving you very basic parameters, really. I wouldn't say my criteria are like no one else's. As for Bisu, the man is basically a dinosaur yet still manages to survive and beat a lot of his peers. And he will always have the X factor and will always be able to pull off the insane plays. So while he is not as good as he once was, he still has a respectable amount of skill. Hope that makes sense. Indeed, he hasn't won anything individually in a long time. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
On February 23 2023 03:25 Miragee wrote: I mean, Snow won stuff with serious competition, just not ASL (e.g. . If you only count ASL, why do you include Bisu in your high tier list? He never won an ASL. I'm not very familiar with that tourney, I know it's organized by some Chinese BW people, I'll look into it. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 23 2023 03:35 RogerChillingworth wrote: "people like me"? who the fuck are you? anyways, looks like your smoking gun is proof that snow was involved before the copyright strike? wow, no further questions your honor. jinjin was a nice guy and i remember him not wanting to drag everyone down into the mud. like he was very accepting of the whole situation. which is why he probably made his content in the first place: altruism! A quality Snow clearly didn't have. KekeEKEkek anyways whatever. fucking hell. Ahh, come on. Man up and admit you're wrong. What's with that "whatever" cop out. What Snow did was contact Jinjin for a takedown request, which did no damage to his channel. The issue was solved amicably. It was Queen with the copyright strike (which, while not the nicest thing to do, is still right legally - let's not call him a jackass either). That much was literally written by Jinjin himself. So for someone who admires him you appear to be quite ignorant don't you? By the way, "people like you" are people who have no clue what they're talking about but still talk about it aggresively. Normally I'd describe it by a four-letter word which I won't say here because it may be banned. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
By the way, "people like you" are people who have no clue what they're talking about but still talk about it aggresively. Normally I'd describe it by a four-letter word which I won't say here because it may be banned. I'm with you brother.. this drives me up the wall both on the internet and in real life.. thanks for having enough patience to explain all this, I would not have it in me, myself. Cheers | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On February 23 2023 01:30 TMNT wrote: Apart from Bisu JD Stork, there's literally no other current ASL players who achieved anything individually during Kespa era. So I don't know why you brought that up. I count an OSL silver as an achievement (Best). I also count two ASL silvers (Snow) as an achievement — agreed on that point! Snow is ridiculously solid. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
On February 23 2023 05:14 TMNT wrote: Ahh, come on. Man up and admit you're wrong. What's with that "whatever" cop out. What Snow did was contact Jinjin for a takedown request, which did no damage to his channel. The issue was solved amicably. It was Queen with the copyright strike (which, while not the nicest thing to do, is still right legally - let's not call him a jackass either). That much was literally written by Jinjin himself. So for someone who admires him you appear to be quite ignorant don't you? By the way, "people like you" are people who have no clue what they're talking about but still talk about it aggresively. Normally I'd describe it by a four-letter word which I won't say here because it may be banned. Lmfao. Dude telling me to man up while he pelts me with personal insults from the cover of internet anonymity. Very manly, brotha. My "whatever, fucking hell" alludes to the fact that forum arguments go back and forth forever and nothing is ever solved, no matter what anyone says. All minutia aside, because your rhetoric is awful and will only result in a never ending ping pong match where i want to kill myself: Snow (and Queen) acted poorly and squashed nearly free marketing for their stream and game to a wider audience out of some combination of spite, pride, greed, etc. And we, the foreign audience, were hurt because of it. Even if it was just a small audience at the time. I retain the position that it's perfectly OK to be upset about this. I retain that Snow is partially to blame. You can disagree. You can slob on the knob. You can become his lawyer. I don't give a shit. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
When Jinjin himself has to say that even Queen did nothing wrong, let alone Snow, no one should open their mouth. And don't try to backtrack from what you said earlier. Somehow Snow who was "at the forefront" now is only "partially to blame" lol. And somehow now it's just about you being "upset about this", not that you were calling him "a jackass" and spreading other false shit. Man up is not about internet transparency bro, in this very context it's about admitting you were wrong after acting stupidly. Also nice to know you're the spokeperson of the foreign audience. | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1010 Posts
Group A: Mini > Action > sSak > HiyA Two hyper clear favorites. sSak is not bad but also not good enough to upset these players. HiyA only entered two previous ASLs and never made it past ro24. Group B: Bisu > BarrackS > Sharp > HyuN Good matchups for Bisu. Sharp hasn't been good for maaaaany seasons but HyuN has barely played in ASL. BarrackS puts up slightly better results. Group C: soma > Best > Mind > Ample easypeasy for soma, and Best has moved on to ro16 in 12 of his 14 seasons. Ample has never made it past ro24 in four seasons. Group D: Snow > Jaedong > Shuttle > BishOp Obviously Snow is a monster and Jaedong usually makes it past ro24, but so does Shuttle. However I believe in the killer instinct of Jaedong. BishOp has no shot. Group E: ZerO > Shine > Mong > Ruin Two clear favorites here as well, and I would say ZerO's ZvZ is better than Shine's. Ruin has the same story as HiyA except he's a newer player. Mong is usually content with qualifying for ASL with his impressive 14 seasons, and never goes far. Group F: Light > Stork > JyJ > Sacsri Light is on a roll. It's very close between the other three players, although Sacsri hasn't been doing great lately so I put him last. JyJ could easily take the second place. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
gg! | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
On February 23 2023 08:38 Freezard wrote: Prediction time! Group A: Mini > Action > sSak > HiyA Two hyper clear favorites. sSak is not bad but also not good enough to upset these players. HiyA only entered two previous ASLs and never made it past ro24. Group B: Bisu > BarrackS > Sharp > HyuN Good matchups for Bisu. Sharp hasn't been good for maaaaany seasons but HyuN has barely played in ASL. BarrackS puts up slightly better results. Group C: soma > Best > Mind > Ample easypeasy for soma, and Best has moved on to ro16 in 12 of his 14 seasons. Ample has never made it past ro24 in four seasons. Group D: Snow > Jaedong > Shuttle > BishOp Obviously Snow is a monster and Jaedong usually makes it past ro24, but so does Shuttle. However I believe in the killer instinct of Jaedong. BishOp has no shot. Group E: ZerO > Shine > Mong > Ruin Two clear favorites here as well, and I would say ZerO's ZvZ is better than Shine's. Ruin has the same story as HiyA except he's a newer player. Mong is usually content with qualifying for ASL with his impressive 14 seasons, and never goes far. Group F: Light > Stork > JyJ > Sacsri Light is on a roll. It's very close between the other three players, although Sacsri hasn't been doing great lately so I put him last. JyJ could easily take the second place. I feel like Shuttle might cause an upset. And maybe Sharp over BarrackS? Even tho I'm hoping for Barracks. Poor Sacsri. Dude doesn't have a prayer. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On February 23 2023 03:16 Nirli wrote: If you are qualifying for a lot of tournaments but you aren't winning literally any of them, I would say that you are mid tier, yes. Again, if he is the best at anything, why hasn't he won anything? Is he the unluckiest man alive? Or maybe he just isn't champion material. Trying to predict which players are “champion material” is pretty dicey. Take Jangbi. He got to the finals of the MSL against Luxury, and he crashed and burned. He was so nervous that he misplaced his Forge in the first game. And then he slumped super hard. He was a perfect example of NOT champion material, but then he won back-to-back OSLs. Light was a decent Terran for like 15 years but never came close to a major league final. But then something clicked and now he’s an ASL and KSL champion. Calm probably didn’t look like champion material to many people when he won an MSL. Unlikelier players than Snow have won before! | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On February 22 2023 02:19 Miragee wrote: Are you talking about the 2010/2011 MSL which Hydra ended up winning? Because Hydra had an insane ZvZ at the time, I would argue the best ZvZ, mostly carried by his muta vs muta micro at the time. He had so many engagements with his first 6 mutas which he ended up winning... His ZvZ carried him to his MSL victory. I looked up his stats just now and he went 11-3 in ZvZ for that MSL with 2 of the 3 losses coming from JD. Yeah it felt disappointing because everyone expected JvZ but people forget Hydras insane ZvZ peak in this, for the sake of fairness fairly short, time frame. Jaedong really declined overall when SC2 came out and they started to split play time (tbf, so was everyone else to some extend). It was not just his ZvZ. It was just more noticable because it went from "JvZ" to "decent winrate with the usual ZvZ coinflip". And I would argue he has always been struggling with all 3 match ups, ZvT the most, since then, especially in the post-Kespa era. He just never came close again to become the force of nature he used be. If he is indeed improving again, that would make me very happy. One of my absolute favourite players ever. Wow I nearly forgot I posted here, thanks for the throwback. That was the time I was most active on TL. And yeah, it almost seems like post KeSPA he's reluctant to use Defilers in TvZ, I fear the worst - that he feels like he isn't mechanical enough to use them well anymore. I hope he does well too, he always places such high expectations for himself but has had to deal with tough loss after loss ever since the Flash era. The loss to Last in KSL was particularly heartbreaking for me. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
Group A: Mini // Action Group B: Bisu // Barracks Group C: soma // Best Group D: Snow // Shuttle (Sorry JD) Group E: Queen // Ruin Group F: Light // Stork | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
Tier 1s should all advance, even if some of them are a little inconsistent. Tier 2s and 3s are competitive (maybe BarrackS is a little weaker than other 3s but, much as I love him, Sharp is probably the weakest 2). Tier 4s other than Sacsri don't have much of a shot. On February 23 2023 14:15 HOLYBATS wrote: Proleague,KCM and UBE may not be a measure for ASL. It is like regular season and playoffs in the NBA. I agree it can be misleading, otherwise Best would have won an ASL by now. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
On February 23 2023 09:59 Djabanete wrote: Trying to predict which players are “champion material” is pretty dicey. Take Jangbi. He got to the finals of the MSL against Luxury, and he crashed and burned. He was so nervous that he misplaced his Forge in the first game. And then he slumped super hard. He was a perfect example of NOT champion material, but then he won back-to-back OSLs. Light was a decent Terran for like 15 years but never came close to a major league final. But then something clicked and now he’s an ASL and KSL champion. Calm probably didn’t look like champion material to many people when he won an MSL. Unlikelier players than Snow have won before! You know what I like about this whole situation? We will know soon enough. I will go one step further. There is a greater chance for Snow to get eliminated in the groups than for him to win this ASL. I'm that confident in what I'm saying. He has a far greater chance to fumble than to achieve greatness, let's put it like that. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1011 Posts
On February 23 2023 15:08 QOGQOG wrote: I feel like the groups are all pretty even: Tier 1s should all advance, even if some of them are a little inconsistent. Tier 2s and 3s are competitive (maybe BarrackS is a little weaker than other 3s but, much as I love him, Sharp is probably the weakest 2). Tier 4s other than Sacsri don't have much of a shot. I agree it can be misleading, otherwise Best would have won an ASL by now. Tier 4s, I wouldnt be surprised if Mind, Ruin and especially Hyun reach RO16. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 23 2023 03:48 Nirli wrote: I'm giving you very basic parameters, really. I wouldn't say my criteria are like no one else's. As for Bisu, the man is basically a dinosaur yet still manages to survive and beat a lot of his peers. And he will always have the X factor and will always be able to pull off the insane plays. So while he is not as good as he once was, he still has a respectable amount of skill. Hope that makes sense. Indeed, he hasn't won anything individually in a long time. No it doesn't make sense because you don't apply the same parameters for each player (aka double standard). I get it that you have an opinion about Snow but the way you rationalize it is just wrong. For example this is what you said: If you are qualifying for a lot of tournaments but you aren't winning literally any of them, I would say that you are mid tier, yes. This is literally the case for Bisu. Worse than Snow, he never reached an ASL final. So by your own rule, Bisu should even be lower-tier than Snow. You also said: Snow has always been a mid tier player, with some incidental good streaks, i.e. ASL final vs Flash. But surprisingly, this is also the case for Mini. He was runner-up twice and won one. Those were his "good streaks". But if you average his finishing position over the 12 ASLs that he played, his average is 11th (I did the math myself). The same number for Snow over the exact 12 ASLs? 10th. So by this standard, Snow is slightly more consistent than Mini. And finally you said this for Bisu: And he will always have the X factor and will always be able to pull off the insane plays. So while he is not as good as he once was, he still has a respectable amount of skill. Let's say you make an exception for Bisu to be your top-tier despite not winning anything. First of all it's totally subjective and not quantifiable. Secondly, the same can be said for Snow: the player with the best Reaver control in the history of BW, one of the only 3 players to ever beat Flash in a BO series (and the only Protoss at that). Remember that 1 base Reaver play vs Soulkey on Whiteout? Or last season when he was put into the same group with Zero Soulkey Soma only to come out on top? How is that not X factor, good an amount of skill or insane play for you? I don't think he'll win this ASL either. His weakness is PvZ. If anyone notice, since his runner-up finish in ASL8, he's been knocked out by Zerg 6 seasons in a row (this is where the luck part comes into play). But not winning ASL and being mid-tier are totally different things. And the way you justified it is just wrong. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria365 Posts
As for Mini, while everyone was getting destroyed by Z, he was actually being creative and trying new things. Let's not downplay a single ASL win like that, please. I don't know why you are mentioning Flash at all, who beat Snow 2-0 PvP as random, and "beat" is an euphemism in that case. By your observation, if you are terrible at 33% of the game, what tier are you? Give me your top 3 Protoss playesr of the last 20 years, so we can end this discussion. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 23 2023 19:49 Nirli wrote: I don't think anyone who has played this game would put Bisu and Snow in the same tier. We're talking about the best Protoss in the history of BW. As for Mini, while everyone was getting destroyed by Z, he was actually being creative and trying new things. Let's not downplay a single ASL win like that, please. I don't know why you are mentioning Flash at all, who beat Snow 2-0 PvP as random, and "beat" is an euphemism in that case. By your observation, if you are terrible at 33% of the game, what tier are you? Give me your top 3 Protoss playesr of the last 20 years, so we can end this discussion. You better explain your double standard and contradictory arguments first, as I already pointed out, before shifting the goal post to top 3 Protoss of the last 20 years (when has this discussion ever been about that?). Fyi you literally wrote "for the recent era" when you classified Bisu high tier and Snow mid tier. You are the prime example of the people who form their opinion based off only a small sample size of games they watch each ASL. By the way, "for the recent era", Bisu is "terrible" (actually I mean top 3, but using your own words, it becomes "terrible") in 66% of the game. What tier he is "for the recent era" again? | ||
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Lorch
Germany3677 Posts
On February 23 2023 19:16 TMNT wrote: This is literally the case for Bisu. Worse than Snow, he never reached an ASL final. So by your own rule, Bisu should even be lower-tier than Snow. He made it to the finals of the VANT Starleague, which Afreeca seems to count as ASL Season 0. Also should be noted that he made it to the finals of one of the last Sonic Starleagues, which I'd say is the equivalent to ASL during the dark age of BW. Anyway, dunno what you two are on about. Both of them are amazing players with the potential to win any ASL they enter. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 23 2023 21:10 Lorch wrote: He made it to the finals of the VANT Starleague, which Afreeca seems to count as ASL Season 0. Also should be noted that he made it to the finals of one of the last Sonic Starleagues, which I'd say is the equivalent to ASL during the dark age of BW. Anyway, dunno what you two are on about. Both of them are amazing players with the potential to win any ASL they enter. Yeah I'm aware of that too. He was on about Snow being "a mid-tier player and extremely overrated" because he doesn't win an ASL. Which is a ludicrous point. I mean, if you reach two finals at any time in your career, that already means you have the potential to win it and you're a top tier player, regardless of how far you dip afterward. The truth is, if we're talking about winning ASL as Protoss, both Snow and Bisu have come very close, but didn't have the luxury that Rain, Mini and Shuttle (I know lol) had, which is: not being denied by Flash. | ||
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oEkY
Germany648 Posts
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TMNT
2641 Posts
It requires elite mechanics to control your bases and move your units around though. This map is not for low level players. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1593 Posts
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Documentary
United States7 Posts
On February 23 2023 19:49 Nirli wrote: I don't think anyone who has played this game would put Bisu and Snow in the same tier. We're talking about the best Protoss in the history of BW. I haven’t logged back in in a decade, and I’ve just been lurking since about 2010, but I have to comment to say you should realize how subjective this is. Clearly you favor Kespa days, or the days when Bisu was literally the only really good player left in the scene, over all recent achievements. Anyone who has watched BW in the last 5 years could make very strong arguments that Snow is much better than Bisu. I’m not going to say it’s definitive, since again, that is subjective, but in my opinion, Snow is miles ahead of Bisu. Tiering players in general is silly, but in the context of an UPCOMING tournament, I think it would make more sense to favor the last 5 years over 15 years ago. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
On February 24 2023 00:14 EndingLife wrote: Why still bo1? At this level, anyone can beat anyone on any given day in bo1. yep this is my humongous gripe about Ro24 bo1 AND potential for funky maps mean upset potential galore no matter who is better on paper I think I remember a really early tastosis ASL cast where they were saying bo1 is not that unfair in BW, but the BW pros themselves know how volatile it is and it sometimes even comes down to spawn positioning luck | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On February 24 2023 02:07 redknights wrote: yep this is my humongous gripe about Ro24 bo1 AND potential for funky maps mean upset potential galore no matter who is better on paper I think I remember a really early tastosis ASL cast where they were saying bo1 is not that unfair in BW, but the BW pros themselves know how volatile it is and it sometimes even comes down to spawn positioning luck That's the point. This layer of the tournament is going to have the biggest mismatches, if it were all Bo3/5 it would be extremely boring. Having so much ride on a single game is what makes it exciting. And it's still a Bo3 in terms of whether or not a player actually advances. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1593 Posts
On February 24 2023 04:55 QOGQOG wrote: That's the point. This layer of the tournament is going to have the biggest mismatches, if it were all Bo3/5 it would be extremely boring. Having so much ride on a single game is what makes it exciting. And it's still a Bo3 in terms of whether or not a player actually advances. Except being bo1, the mismatches aren't really much of a mismatch like they would be in a bo3/5 and so on. A bo3/5 would increase the chances of the better players advancing. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
On February 24 2023 05:38 EndingLife wrote: Except being bo1, the mismatches aren't really much of a mismatch like they would be in a bo3/5 and so on. A bo3/5 would increase the chances of the better players advancing. Yea I think my personal viewing preferences is for the better players to advance to the later rounds so we can have better quality games in Ro16 and beyond. Not my preference for a lesser player to luck into the Ro16 just to get absolutely stomped | ||
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oEkY
Germany648 Posts
Mini/sSak Bisu/Hyun Best/Mind Zero/Ruin Light/Sacsri | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
snow used to be a pvt sniper but he's worked on his pvz a lot since those days, and with pvp more and more utilizing reavers he's looking very strong in the mu, see: daily proleague barnburner pvp between mini and snow | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On February 23 2023 15:18 Nirli wrote: You know what I like about this whole situation? We will know soon enough. I will go one step further. There is a greater chance for Snow to get eliminated in the groups than for him to win this ASL. I'm that confident in what I'm saying. He has a far greater chance to fumble than to achieve greatness, let's put it like that. Duh. Eight players get eliminated in the group stages and one player wins the ASL. What you said goes for everybody. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
On February 24 2023 07:01 whylessness wrote: this is what happens when you delay ASL 2 weeks. the thread turns into lord of the flies. also you're trippin if you follow KCM, ASL, daily proleagues etc. and don't think snow is a contender for ASL champion. but his previous results speak for themselves. took out flash in ASL, made finals twice... and he probably has the best reaver control in the world. like what? snow used to be a pvt sniper but he's worked on his pvz a lot since those days, and with pvp more and more utilizing reavers he's looking very strong in the mu, see: daily proleague barnburner pvp between mini and snow EDIT: hear here. Snow to the finals. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 24 2023 04:55 QOGQOG wrote: That's the point. This layer of the tournament is going to have the biggest mismatches, if it were all Bo3/5 it would be extremely boring. Having so much ride on a single game is what makes it exciting. And it's still a Bo3 in terms of whether or not a player actually advances. Since it can't be about broadcasting time, the only explanation for BO1 is they want to give the lesser players a chance to enter Ro16. You know, to mix things up a bit. But it's kinda pointless anyway since said players will become no.1 prey in the group nomination and get slapped hard in Ro16. To think there was a time when they did BO1 in Ro16 too.... | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States675 Posts
In other news: In the KCM women's league, VM~ has been dominating, and not even Tossgirl can stand up to her. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2832 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
On February 24 2023 06:41 oEkY wrote: The liquibets are open, pretty cool. i really like Snow and its sad to think so, but in my opinion JD will get out of this group as #1 and then in the final game Shuttle will win with a dt build (like he did in the final match against free in the group stage of ASL1). And (because i bet like a madman) my other bets are: Mini/sSak Bisu/Hyun Best/Mind Zero/Ruin Light/Sacsri Everyone here posting (and lurking) fanatically should play liquibet this season! Login to TL and at the top left you can start betting. | ||
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Original_TLer
28 Posts
I also haven't played any other games seriously as I did SC/BW. Lol. Simply the best RTS game out there. I would say that it's a fluke and there won't be anything created to be as perfect as SC/BW. On February 24 2023 08:17 ThunderJunk wrote: But pretty much no protoss has been looking good versus T. Even Mind is looking capable of beating every protoss. Royal looks unstoppable in the MU. Light is favored too. Even Mini and Snow? You can't be serious. | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 24 2023 08:17 ThunderJunk wrote: Snow has definitely been looking really good in PvZ. But pretty much no protoss has been looking good versus T. Even Mind is looking capable of beating every protoss. Royal looks unstoppable in the MU. Light is favored too. What? No. Mind is like 15% win against Mini and Snow in the past 6 months. He's still very much 50/50 vs Free and Stork in K-League and should lose to Best in every BO3. And Royal just lost 8-11 to Snow a few days ago in a BO21. Funny that Snow led 10-2 at one point then Royal went 6 wins in a row before Snow could end the series. Overall Royal is 20-28 to Snow in 2023. The case for TvP has always been like this: Light > Rush > Royal with only Light holding a +50% record. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7958 Posts
On February 24 2023 08:19 RogerChillingworth wrote: i love starcraft +1 | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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Original_TLer
28 Posts
On February 24 2023 15:21 TMNT wrote: What? No. Mind is like 15% win against Mini and Snow in the past 6 months. He's still very much 50/50 vs Free and Stork in K-League and should lose to Best in every BO3. And Royal just lost 8-11 to Snow a few days ago in a BO21. Funny that Snow led 10-2 at one point then Royal went 6 wins in a row before Snow could end the series. Overall Royal is 20-28 to Snow in 2023. The case for TvP has always been like this: Light > Rush > Royal with only Light holding a +50% record. Where can I find those data? | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
From this site (but maybe you need to know some Korean to effectively use it): http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=rank_list | ||
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TMNT
2641 Posts
On February 01 2023 22:08 TMNT wrote: A little perspective before ASL starts: (source + matchups breakdown: http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=pro_league&wr_id=778) PROLEAGUE RECORD, JAN 2023 ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5n4PCx4.png) * denotes players who only or mostly played K-League, so their results are not comparable with the players from Major Proleague. For example, the 56.4% win rate of  Jaedong doesn't indicate that he's better than Hero who is at 43.6% at the moment. Jaedong recently found the Major Proleague a bit too tough for him, so he dropped down to K-League to play with the likes of  Sharp,  Stork, Effort.In top form are Royal Light and Snow who all won two third of their games, especially Royal who not just won but also played a ridiculous amount of games and had several all-kills. These are the ASL champion contenders.Bisu Best and Mini are all hovering a little above 50% which is something they always do. Although Best maybe inflates his record a bit since he played a couple of K-Leagues.The Zergs definitely need improvement as Soma is barely above 50% and Queen & Hero are at negative records. Soulkey were playing LOL more than BW at the beginning of the month, and has just recently come back to Proleagues, so we will see.Rush needs some extra work to catch up with the two other Terran fellows, standing at only 44.7%.Shuttle being Shuttle, punching a bit over his weight at the Major Proleague, and understandably at 42.9%.Kind of surprised to see JYJ, who was the hot stuff a few seasons ago, now languishing at the bottom of the table at 37%, despite playing in the second tier league mostly. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
On February 24 2023 17:44 reincremate wrote: I get why people dislike bo1, but I like the randomness, suspense, and chaos that bo1 in the Ro24 can create. We can't have our dream matchups in the later rounds all the time, because then the ASL would be more like a rather predictable reflection of sponmatch rankings. Respectfully disagree, I think it's more predictable if a lesser player moves on and gets stomped. Even the BW pros say all the time that ASL is different from sponmatch because players save their best builds and strats for Starleagues that they won't whip out in a sponmatch or daily proleague | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On February 23 2023 19:49 Nirli wrote: I don't think anyone who has played this game would put Bisu and Snow in the same tier. We're talking about the best Protoss in the history of BW. As for Mini, while everyone was getting destroyed by Z, he was actually being creative and trying new things. Let's not downplay a single ASL win like that, please. I don't know why you are mentioning Flash at all, who beat Snow 2-0 PvP as random, and "beat" is an euphemism in that case. By your observation, if you are terrible at 33% of the game, what tier are you? Give me your top 3 Protoss players of the last 20 years, so we can end this discussion. You are right, I think Snow is tier 1 and Bisu tier 2 atm. I also think best Protoss player in bw history is Stork btw but unlike Terran and Zerg it is a lot less clear and Bisu is basically on the same rank as Stork in that regard. The problem here seems to be that you are arguing for a career based prediction while some other people including myself are making a present state prediction/analysis. Has Bisu been more successful in 20 years (over Snow): yes. Is he a better player right now? No, I think Snow is a better player in the present. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On February 24 2023 02:07 redknights wrote: yep this is my humongous gripe about Ro24 bo1 AND potential for funky maps mean upset potential galore no matter who is better on paper I think I remember a really early tastosis ASL cast where they were saying bo1 is not that unfair in BW, but the BW pros themselves know how volatile it is and it sometimes even comes down to spawn positioning luck To be fair, Tastosis' point of reference will be SC2 and in this regard, BW bo1 is really not that unfair in comparison. On February 24 2023 08:19 RogerChillingworth wrote: i love starcraft get out of here! | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 25 2023 02:02 Miragee wrote: To be fair, Tastosis' point of reference will be SC2 and in this regard, BW bo1 is really not that unfair in comparison. Thing is Bo1 is a different kind of test and it's a test the best of the best will always overcome. Even if you get bad spawn position luck or bad scouting your build and how you react to it should determine who gets through not just who can play the best macro games 24/7. Bo1 means the more creative players stand a chance and can save more creativity for the later stages. Look at Flash in his tournament history. He's held builds going 14CC that no other player would have and it just goes to show that even if you have a build order loss if you play out of your mind you can win. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On February 23 2023 00:49 TMNT wrote: And here's another one. Every time ASL comes around, there're a bunch of foreign fans who have no knowledge of spongames, proleagues, KCM or UBE, who only watched a few ASL games and think they can deduce everything from that. This is why I wasn't that surprised by Royal winning last ASL. It was still an amazing performance but he had already a top performer for almost a year by then. On February 24 2023 22:47 TMNT wrote: In case somebody misses it from the Proleague thread. Bit of perspective on players' form going to the tournament. Gonna do the same table for February in a few days. Things seem so different now just a month later .![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/X87std8.png) The last couple matches for the top three on Eloboard. Bisu: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/zxluKYg.png) Light: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/0uTMeIr.png) Soma + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Zg8kexS.png ) | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
 eOnzErG via StarCastTV. I'm just letting you guys know on his behalf. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On February 27 2023 05:28 Peeano wrote: Nyoken just announced he will be casting ASL live with eOnzErG via StarCastTV. I'm just letting you guys know on his behalf.Wait, Nyoken backtracked on his word and actually decided to get up in the middle of the night? What a madman. Thanks a lot you two! | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
5am is damn early but 6am might be doable after daylights savings shift | ||
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moktira
Ireland1543 Posts
On February 27 2023 05:28 Peeano wrote: Nyoken just announced he will be casting ASL live with eOnzErG via StarCastTV. I'm just letting you guys know on his behalf.This is great news, is Scan not casting it at all then? Hard to know who I'd listen to if they were both doing it separately. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
On February 27 2023 23:27 Peeano wrote: Scan wanted to be paid for casting ASL is my last info. A patreon was started, but it never really took off. The goal was too unrealistic from the start imho. Source Not a bad idea but unrealistic as you said because community is small. If there was literally no english cast that could work but Tastosis already have patreon. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 27 2023 23:27 Peeano wrote: Scan wanted to be paid for casting ASL is my last info. A patreon was started, but it never really took off. The goal was too unrealistic from the start imho. Source "Besides, tastosis casts ASL with a goal of 14.5k per month. Compared to them, Scan's goal is very affordable." When you put it this way what Scan said is true lmao. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On February 28 2023 00:56 Qikz wrote: "Besides, tastosis casts ASL with a goal of 14.5k per month. Compared to them, Scan's goal is very affordable." When you put it this way what Scan said is true lmao. This... Tbh, I think part of it is poor advertising. He should have at least made a thread on TL. This is the first time I'm seeing a link to his actual patreon. So far my only info was second-hand hearsay that he wants to set up a patreon with a 2k/month goal. The other part is that Tastosis has a large Tastosis-specific fanbase as opposed to a BW fanbase. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On February 27 2023 21:23 moktira wrote: This is great news, is Scan not casting it at all then? Hard to know who I'd listen to if they were both doing it separately. Proleague organizers start looking for online streamers immediately after the last match of the day concludes, sometimes during the last match. So if Scan is casting ASL he would miss out on Moonlight proleague or K-league opportunities. Considering Proleagues are a good chunk of income its not worth missing out on them to cast ASL for free. | ||
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