• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:05
CEST 01:05
KST 08:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash8[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy12ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple5Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research3Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool49Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win4
StarCraft 2
General
What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Season 4 announced for March-April StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) WardiTV Mondays World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
Mutation # 519 Inner Power The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone Mutation # 517 Distant Threat
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Build Order Practice Maps [ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pros React To: SoulKey vs Ample
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro24 Group E [Megathread] Daily Proleagues 🌍 Weekly Foreign Showmatches [ASL21] Ro24 Group D
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1845 users

Shooting uphill with no vision

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10307 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-08 16:41:33
February 08 2021 16:35 GMT
#1
Hello everyone! In a recent SSCAIT broadcast, there was a weird situation in which a Protoss AI Cannon-contained a Terran AI on La Mancha. This alone is unusual enough, but what made it even stranger was that one of the Cannons was freely shooting at the Barracks which was part of the Terran's high ground wall. Please see in the video below (timestamp 1:18:52 if the link does not automatically move you there):



Here is a still shot of the Cannon firing on the Barracks:

[image loading]

This sparked a discussion in the SSCAIT Discord about what the possible reasons for this are. One theory is that this has to do with the modified ramps on La Mancha's top right spawning position. This map, and SSCAIT, were made for/operate on 1.16, so reverse ramps had to be manually made by mapmakers, which frequently leads to strange behavior such as the fact that in some positions on reverse ramps, units have nearly 0 vision. The hypothesis was that the Barracks is actually standing on a low ground tile, which means that the Cannon can see it despite it theoretically being on the "high" ground.

My theory is a bit different. I know from experience that units can frequently see and attack buildings on the high ground when they are right up against the edge of the map. This has happened to me many times because I am a scrub that goes 1 base Reaver/Sair PvZ, and the best way that I've found to transition out of this into a more standard game is to place a Pylon on the edge of the high ground, and then use the support area on the low ground to make my first few Cannons in order to establish an expansion. Hydralisks have frequently fired uphill on these Pylons/Cannons without having vision.

Some had not seen/heard of this before in the SSCAIT Discord, so I used an unlocked version of FS to test this. Here are some of the Pylon locations I found which can be freely seen and attacked from the low ground:

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

As you can see, most of these locations are not near a ramp - and thus, should have no low ground tiles used in that area. My theory is that the edge of "rough" tilesets like FS's jungle high ground and La Mancha's desert high ground are as uneven in terms of vision as they appear visually, so in some rare cases, a building may "overlap" with the vision permitted by this uneven terrain. Of course, it could be that both theories are correct, and that vision is provided based on whichever one applies.

This raises a lot of questions:

1. Is this a well-known phenomenon? Searching on Google and TL did not give me any relevant results.

2. Have pros have abused this "feature," or know where not to place their buildings to avoid being vulnerable?

3. Why do it be the way that it is, doe?

If you know of any relevant discussions/threads or if you have any answers, please post them here I pinged Freakling on Discord who I suspect would be the best resource concerning such issues, and if he doesn't post in response here and responds there, I will update the thread with his analysis.

Thanks!
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
EmptyHands
Profile Joined January 2021
14 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-08 17:36:56
February 08 2021 17:16 GMT
#2
I know the problem and read about it a few years ago. Unfortunately I don't know exactly whether here or in a Mapmaker forum. I think the reason was that the cliffs weren't always closed properly (vision wise) and that you have the opportunity to look up, depending on your unit position. Not 100% sure tho, I think Freakling knows the correct answer.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10307 Posts
February 08 2021 21:54 GMT
#3
A very promising answer has been found I will write up the findings when I get home later today.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
MineraIs
Profile Joined September 2020
United States846 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-08 23:04:43
February 08 2021 23:04 GMT
#4
There is probably low ground tiles at the top of the reverse ramp. This is a big issue with most reverse ramps, even the new SC:R doodads and need to be manually fixed.
✯ [ twitch.tv/MrMineraIs ] ✯ [ Check out my Maps: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/612442-official-maps-by-minerals ] ✯
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10307 Posts
February 08 2021 23:10 GMT
#5
On February 09 2021 08:04 MineraIs wrote:
There is probably low ground tiles at the top of the reverse ramp. This is a big issue with most reverse ramps, even the new SC:R doodads and need to be manually fixed.

This is not the issue in this case but is an issue, yes.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1533 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-08 23:37:28
February 08 2021 23:35 GMT
#6
I'll just write down the gist of the answer as I've already given it on the BWAI discord:

At game start all tiles are classified by terrain level (and some other properties):
Each tile is made up of 4×4 minitiles, each of which has flags for medium ground, high ground and pure vision block (and, of course, walkability, but that is not strictly relevant here)
If at least 12 minitiles are flagged as medium or high ground then the tile is considered medium ground.
If at least 12 minitiles are flagged as high ground then the tile is considered high ground.
If at least 1 minitile is flagged as vision blocking then the tile is considered vision blocking (meaning it will always block vision for ground units, no matter what any other tiles in the vicinity are).

Lower/higher ground henceforth refer to the vision blocking hierarchy of low ground < medium ground < high ground < vision blocking.
The terrain level of the minitile at the unit position (position of the centre point of the unit) determines the unit's terrain level. A unit has vision of all tiles of the same or lower terrain level as well as any higher ground tile that is adjacent, including diagonally, to a lower ground tile and in the unit's line of sight. Any unit with position on a visible tile will also be visible to the first unit. For buildings to be visible it it suffices if any tile of their building area is visible.

Many cliff tiles (particularly in the BW tilesets Desert, Ice and Twilight) and some doodads (including the vast majority of the new ramps introduced by Blizzard in patch 1.22!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) have faultily or haphazardly set terrain level flags that do not meat the tile flag conditions stated at the beginning of this post, leading to some significant cliff vision issues.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 55m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft188
SpeCial 144
ForJumy 40
JuggernautJason38
CosmosSc2 32
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 574
GuemChi 307
Aegong 98
Dota 2
monkeys_forever694
Counter-Strike
tarik_tv4155
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0299
PPMD28
Other Games
summit1g14082
Grubby2417
Fnx 2031
shahzam567
Day[9].tv108
Maynarde62
ViBE30
minikerr6
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick240
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta102
• musti20045 34
• Reevou 4
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4520
Other Games
• Scarra862
• imaqtpie781
• Shiphtur125
• Day9tv108
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
55m
Replay Cast
9h 55m
Afreeca Starleague
10h 55m
BeSt vs Leta
Queen vs Jaedong
Kung Fu Cup
11h 55m
Replay Cast
1d
The PondCast
1d 10h
OSC
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
TriGGeR vs Cure
ByuN vs Rogue
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Maru vs MaxPax
[ Show More ]
BSL
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
BSL
4 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS6
WardiTV Winter 2026
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 21
Proleague 2026-03-31
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
Escore Tournament S2: W1
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.