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On June 19 2007 12:28 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I mean, that should have nothing to do with it. You can do hold lurker by going into the Diplomacy screen too; does that mean that "allied lurker" is banned but "hold lurker" isn't?
I think the important thing here is that you can't use allied mines unless you go to the Diplomacy screen, which is not true for hold lurker.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 19 2007 13:10 Cadical wrote:I think you answered your own question Show nested quote +On June 19 2007 12:28 GrandInquisitor wrote:
The whole idea is that we should be banning based on effect and not mode of execution.
They decided that hold lurkers and its effects are acceptable. and obs on turret is not banned anyways
Obs on turret is indeed banned in a lot of tourneys. Don't know about pro, but it is on WGT.
On June 19 2007 13:25 Kwark wrote:
I know you don't wanna hear this but using the diplomacy thing is external to the game engine. It is outside the game commands. Hold lurker is not. As for banned on effect, not execution. Hold lurkers is legal in progames and balance is fine. Allied mines is illegal and balance is still fine. So change nothing.
I don't understand why you guys point to this. Is Starcraft honestly going to fall apart at the seams, with its precarious balance shattered if we legalize allied mines or get rid of hold lurker? That's not the overriding consideration in this case.
On June 19 2007 13:11 PePe QuiCoSE wrote:
"in order to use allied mines you have to go into the Diplomacy screen, for hold lurker you don't." and you are behaving like a fag lately.* Hope your period is over soon.
Iirc there was said by that time that allied mines you con only achieve it off game, while hold lurker you use game mechanics.
*http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=38446
edit: my, 7 posts while opening and reading the topic, and writing a reply
Gosh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that once we discussed this topic once on these forums, we could never ever talk about it again.
And it took you over 6 minutes to write that garbled piece of incoherent juvenile attack? -.-
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 19 2007 13:26 0z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2007 12:28 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I mean, that should have nothing to do with it. You can do hold lurker by going into the Diplomacy screen too; does that mean that "allied lurker" is banned but "hold lurker" isn't?
I think the important thing here is that you can't use allied mines unless you go to the Diplomacy screen, which is not true for hold lurker.
Wow, no way! I totally did not realize that! Please pay no attention to the next ten lines devoted to analyzing that exact fact!
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GrandInquisitor your argument here fails because of one fact. To stop mines from attacking, you have to ALLY your opponent. This is clearly an exploit which is rightfully not allowed in pro starcraft. On the other hand you can tell any UNIT in the game which doesnt include a mine that is laid in the ground from a vulture to NOT ATTACK. if you were to take the ability to stop a lurker from attacking when you want it to, well then every unit would have to lose this ability. The fact that people have found other ways to stop the lurkers from attacking then sitting there and spamming S doesnt mean it needs to be taken from the game. It definately doesnt mean that allied mines needs to be added back in.
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Seriously, the only reason why Allied Mines is banned and Hold Lurkers isn't is because you can give commands to a Lurker, but you can't give commands to a mine. It's like glitching an SCV through mins or a Vulture through Pylons or something - you can give it commands to get it through. You can't command a mine to blow up.
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GI you have a point there and ive thought about this too, but i think its something along the lines of the mines being usable very early in a game already and the damage that can be done by doing allied mines is much more than stop lurker, and lurker comes a little later in the game and compared to mines, not as destructive
nonetheless you have a point and im not a really pro player so =D
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Cuz T is already imba!!
But really, think about starcraft beign played in One vs One mode, where you can't ally and hence can't used allied mines. The makers of the game didn't watn those damn allied mines to come into play in their 1v1 mode so it shoudl be banned. Hold lurker is merely a clever ploy while allied mines is erm exploiting the functions that blizz nicely gave us so that we could have games with more than 2 people.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 19 2007 13:33 AlexanderTheGreat wrote:
GrandInquisitor your argument here fails because of one fact. To stop mines from attacking, you have to ALLY your opponent. This is clearly an exploit which is rightfully not allowed in pro starcraft. On the other hand you can tell any UNIT in the game which doesnt include a mine that is laid in the ground from a vulture to NOT ATTACK. if you were to take the ability to stop a lurker from attacking when you want it to, well then every unit would have to lose this ability. The fact that people have found other ways to stop the lurkers from attacking then sitting there and spamming S doesnt mean it needs to be taken from the game. It definately doesnt mean that allied mines needs to be added back in.
The fact that lurkers do not naturally have the Hold Position building suggests to me that Blizzard did not intend for lurkers to be able to not attack. It suggests to me that they intended it in the exact same spirit of mines - that they will always attack, and it forewarns itself.
On June 19 2007 13:33 5HITCOMBO wrote:
Seriously, the only reason why Allied Mines is banned and Hold Lurkers isn't is because you can give commands to a Lurker, but you can't give commands to a mine. It's like glitching an SCV through mins or a Vulture through Pylons or something - you can give it commands to get it through. You can't command a mine to blow up.
I talked about this already, no? You can tell an obs to stay over a turret but that's banned.
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The difference is that you're causing your opponent's unit to not work, not yours.
Turrets are also another unit that can't do anything but stop and attack, by the way  .
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 19 2007 13:35 Jonoman92 wrote:
Cuz T is already imba!!
But really, think about starcraft beign played in One vs One mode, where you can't ally and hence can't used allied mines. The makers of the game didn't watn those damn allied mines to come into play in their 1v1 mode so it shoudl be banned. Hold lurker is merely a clever ploy while allied mines is erm exploiting the functions that blizz nicely gave us so that we could have games with more than 2 people.
There are different modes that prevent us from doing certain things, some of which prohibit the execution of certain exploits. That shouldn't be the determinator of what exploits are allowed and which aren't.
Imagine a mode of Starcraft where you can only select one unit at a time and you can't see faraway buildings under fog of war and etc. (It doesn't exist, of course, but this is a thought experiment.) Would the existence of that mode indicate that in melee you can't do Hold Lurker?
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no unit stops attacking when on hold pos, bug. ban!
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 19 2007 13:38 5HITCOMBO wrote:The difference is that you're causing your opponent's unit to not work, not yours. Turrets are also another unit that can't do anything but stop and attack, by the way .
Okay, flying drone and flying templar. Gas stack bug. There are a lot of examples where we ban you from issuing certain series of commands.
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On June 19 2007 13:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2007 13:11 PePe QuiCoSE wrote:
"in order to use allied mines you have to go into the Diplomacy screen, for hold lurker you don't." and you are behaving like a fag lately.* Hope your period is over soon.
Iirc there was said by that time that allied mines you con only achieve it off game, while hold lurker you use game mechanics.
*http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=38446
edit: my, 7 posts while opening and reading the topic, and writing a reply Gosh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that once we discussed this topic once on these forums, we could never ever talk about it again. My point was how different you approached that discussion compared to this one. In the other one you were open to discussion, here you have your mind set up and discrediting the main point of the whole issue and ranting any argument given.
And btw, it was my honest opinion, not a mere attack. I beleived you are smart enough to look to the main reason why this was done this way and set up and argument why you don't agree.
edit: btw. i'm logging off, so i'm out of this discussion before it turns into a 6 long pages thread (aka. pm)
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Well, if that's the case, should patrol workers be banned too?
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What's gas stack attack? First time I hear about it :/
(dont flame plx :/)
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On June 19 2007 13:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2007 13:38 5HITCOMBO wrote:The difference is that you're causing your opponent's unit to not work, not yours. Turrets are also another unit that can't do anything but stop and attack, by the way . Okay, flying drone and flying templar. Gas stack bug. There are a lot of examples where we ban you from issuing certain series of commands.
Those were not in the original broodwar. They were patched in. Now they're patched out. (Except for stack, which I think still works.)
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Grandinquisitor, if your so hellbent on your opinion on this issue why are you asking for others opinions only to shut them down? Just go to the old threads and argue with your self... quietly....at your own home.....with no one around....sex with kittens....
[edit]
also.. in a 1vs1 option you cannot ever ally the other person. since in some ladders this is even the only way to make a game count, it would be reduntent to even allow allied mines.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 19 2007 13:40 PePe QuiCoSE wrote:
My point was how different you approached that discussion compared to this one. In the other one you were open to discussion, here you have your mind set up and discrediting the main point of the whole issue and ranting any argument given.
And btw, it was my honest opinion, not a mere attack. I beleived you are smart enough to look to the main reason why this was done this way and set up and argument why you don't agree.
and you are behaving like a fag lately.* Hope your period is over soon.
Sounds like a voice of a mature debater to me.
I mean, what's wrong with having my mind set up? You say it as if it is an Inherently Bad Thing; what's so offensive about me having a thought-out opinion, and creating a topic explaining it and then asking for people to convince me otherwise?
You're the one who applies labels like "rant" and "discredit the main point of the whole issue" to my perfectly reasonable post; you're the one who is resorting to pathetically unfunny juvenile personal attacks rather than try to give this any thought.
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On June 19 2007 13:41 Dariush wrote:
What's gas stack attack? First time I hear about it :/
(dont flame plx :/)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=40550
first post:
On June 06 2006 20:58 Blind wrote:
For those who don't know what this bug is, it's when you select one or more worker, tell it to mine an unused geyser, hold shift and order it to mine the geyser a few more times, then while still holding shift, finally order it to move anywhere. It will move as if mining, so it'll go through any units.
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Well... honestly, what's the point in arguing about this? We're not going to change the rules that have been set in place by the korean leagues, nor are we going to have much influence over the foreign leagues (which base practically everything off of the korean ones). Allied mines is banned. Hold lurkers is not. We can't change that.
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EPT
