So to start this off, some proof of concept for something that most map makers, including me, probably never thought possible before. But once you understand how unpassability flags determine pathfinding regions, many things become doable. It actually is feasible to create Scarab gaps (walkable gaps in otherwise unpassable terrain that are only a single minitile wide and thus block all units, including lings, but except Scarabs, from passing through) using terrain tiles only (no units of any kind involved to tighten the gap!).
As with all obstacles you can throw a Reaver's way there is a certain tendency for Scarabs to dud out and these gaps are considered passable by the game engine, so autopathfinding will try to move units through and make them "bug out", but still the prospect of having Reavers dropped on actual unreachable cliffs is scary.

Download proof of concept map, play with UMS settings and enjoy the show!

funnybananaman

United States830 Posts

April 25 2018 01:22 GMT

In a polite of a way as is possible i must ask wtf is the point of this map?

zerglingling

131 Posts

April 25 2018 08:48 GMT

Is this the optimal inverted space ramp, or is there a better version possible?

wtf is the point of this map?

Animal abuse, of course.

JungleTerrain

Chile799 Posts

April 25 2018 14:39 GMT

There is no “optimal” inverted space ramp. As a mapmaker you have the choice to use one or another ramp but it comes down to whatever works and is your preference. Ideally you want a ramp that symmetrically matches normal angled ramps and their in-game characteristics (height, width, hit/miss %, and elevation) such as the doodad ones in space tileset or custom made ones.

Edit: that picture above would be more informative to your question if you were to look at the ramp in-editor with mini tile height overlay turned on and then compared with a ramp facing down.

On another note, looking forward to more of these snippets Freakling!

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

April 27 2018 21:42 GMT

Broodwar pathfinding is this fantastic thing where every time you think you finally understand how it works something even weirder comes around and happens.

I'll try and give the explanation tomorrow (well, the best I currently have, at least). Until then feel free to come up with your own though.
I should probably also write some more useful stuff (mechanics, how to?, what is it good for?) for the last snipped and add a proper OP… Maybe tomorrow.

ne4aJIb

Russian Federation3209 Posts

April 29 2018 08:32 GMT

btw, JD tried to push lings on Third World through the gates using drones, but he did not manage it. Is it theoretically possible?

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

April 29 2018 15:03 GMT

Theoretically, yes, of course. An Installation gate is but a unit, and it's rather easy to push units through other units in principle. In practice, however, there's more that one limitation to the feasibility and trying it without having tested it before is prone to set you up for failure or worse. It's never an issue of if though, just an issue of how to best (most reliably and APM-efficiently) achieve it. Giving an exhaustive rundown of that issue, or even just the special cases on 3rd World, would be worth a rather lengthy article of its own, though.

At this point I have pretty much switched from in-game testing to in-editor analysis with only occasional, very specific in-game testing of pathfinding to confirm specific cases and thus further deepen my general understanding of its workings.

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

May 18 2018 14:52 GMT

Sorry, I am not really keeping my promisses to explain anything, but among other things, a certain topic got in the way…
So instead here's another little thing I have lying around: my demo for the Ultra vortex bug, a variant of the infamous vortex bug (please don't ever call it "ramp vortex" or, even worse, "Goon vortex", as neither ramps nor Goons have anything to do with it in particular. These things can happen anywhere near impassable ground and affect all ground units) that only affects Ultraisks because of their oversize collision boxes. Just unburrow the Lurkers and wait a few seconds, then reburrow the Lurkers (kill the Eggs, if you like) ; note how all the Ultralisks get stuck against the unwalkable cliff to the right but none of the Lurkers are.

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

July 30 2018 20:09 GMT

#10

This one's just for fun.

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

August 13 2018 23:37 GMT

#11

For all who, like me, like to sketch out maps on paper in some detail: BW mapping graph paper, including both a tile grid and an isometric grid.

+ Show Spoiler [show sample] +

128×128 grid (for your typical melee map formats)
256×256 grid (in case you plan for something bigger)

Just download the size you need and print it out.

LG)Sabbath

Argentina3024 Posts

August 14 2018 17:59 GMT

#12

are people making 256x256 maps at all? I haven't played one in ages

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

September 14 2018 23:27 GMT

#13

The Lurker catapult and how a vortex can actually be a useful and clean way to prevent it

So we all know these pesky vortices as game-destroying bugs by now. But sometimes they can and should actually be put in a map on purpose – to prevent adventurous players from being able to exploit the BroodWar's terrain collision handling for even greater effect.

This map demonstrates an exploit that can actually be done on many melee maps (if you know the right drop holes), the Lurker Catapult (although it can get any other unit over unpassable terrain too, as long as you can burrow stack them ; or place them on top of a burrow stack). It also demonstrates how a vortex in the right spot can act as a very effective and clean means to prevent this from happening.

Notes to players:

Learn this exploit and find some spots to use it!
Seriously, I want to actually see this happen in a real game!

Notes to map makers:

Fix your drop holes!
If you can't, have a vortex nearby.
Seriously, just fix dem darn drop holes!

Leonix

161 Posts

June 22 2019 20:21 GMT

#14

Well, the scarab wall is good and all, but is still kind of passable by ground ...

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

June 22 2019 23:43 GMT

#15

Go eat some Scarabs, cheater.

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

January 10 2021 00:09 GMT

#16

This is actually really cool and useful:
Miss Creep spawners that Blizzard took away from us?
Well, forget about those clunky, impractical Creep spawners then.
Permanent Creep Beacons is the new deal!

LUCKY_NOOB

Bulgaria1500 Posts

January 10 2021 13:16 GMT

#17

On June 23 2019 08:43 Freakling wrote:
Go eat some Scarabs, cheater.

hahaha

Praise the Freakling! \o/

I agree map exploits and funky hops and stuff should be encouraged and possible on ALL maps.

vOdToasT

Sweden2870 Posts

December 23 2022 22:41 GMT

#18

On May 18 2018 23:52 Freakling wrote:
Sorry, I am not really keeping my promisses to explain anything, but among other things, a certain topic got in the way…
So instead here's another little thing I have lying around: my demo for the Ultra vortex bug, a variant of the infamous vortex bug (please don't ever call it "ramp vortex" or, even worse, "Goon vortex", as neither ramps nor Goons have anything to do with it in particular. These things can happen anywhere near impassable ground and affect all ground units) that only affects Ultraisks because of their oversize collision boxes. Just unburrow the Lurkers and wait a few seconds, then reburrow the Lurkers (kill the Eggs, if you like) ; note how all the Ultralisks get stuck against the unwalkable cliff to the right but none of the Lurkers are.

There's a variation that only affects ultralisks?

What should we call the variation that works on other units if not the ramp vortex? I've had ultraling get stuck on the infamous FS ramp on 12, and also seen Bisu's protoss units gets stuck there. I think even Terran mech has gotten stuck there once or twice.

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

December 27 2022 20:17 GMT

#19

On December 24 2022 07:41 vOdToasT wrote:

Show nested quote +

You can group vortices by unit size steps, if you like, depending on how many minitiles their bounding boxes cover:
- Zergling vortices (anything can get stuck)
- Ghost vortices (only Lings can escape) → this is the majority of cases
- [basically whatever else] vortices (only Lings and Ghosts can escape)
- Ultra vortices (only Ultralisks get stuck)

However, it's probably not useful to make these distinctions…

LUCKY_NOOB

Bulgaria1500 Posts

December 28 2022 16:55 GMT

#20

Any tips on how to find spots where Lurker Catapult would work? (besides the map you made kek which is disgustingly beautiful I must say and I appreciate the murder of the protoss haha).