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"In conclusion,
1. Canata always secures a favorable position and maximizes the strength of a two-factory build.
2. Though he is surrounded by lurkers, he uses the attack delay of the lurkers to spread out his units and minimize their damage.
3. He continuously reinforces his lines to compensate his losses in battle."
EVERY progamer terran, every decent tvz terran knows and does this. Canata just does it better. He usually doesn't even two fact in most games.
And also, people do manually aim their tanks in tvz, whether it be at lurkers or more often, at defilers.
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Oov did the tanks thing against JJu on Luna about 2 years ago(the rep that leaked). It looks pretty cool as the lurks get mashed once they reach a certain range. Good blog nonetheless.
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That was awful
And in that particular game July's muta harrass wasn't very effective if I recall and he got a very late hive. Canata played smart but not any different than any other good tvz players.
It would have been an alright article if it was about tvz tactics and not trying to explain how Canata is somehow a prodigy for playing tvz in the same way every other pro T does or aspires to do.
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Nice read thx for sharing!
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
# WhatisProtoss
"How did you come up with that name?"
Neurophysiology seems to be a bit out of your league, like they say, the fish dies by his mouth.. could not find it with google? Try visual reflex pathways or cortical visual reflexes or cortical visual pathways. But to answer your question: because I studied and did research for 2 year on human neurophysiology; plus I taught physiology to med students for 3 years.
"Knowledge is most satisfying when you feed yourself, not when somebody feeds you."
Indeed, very good advice, go learn. I did appreciate your first comment, "not so much" (add Borat accent) your second. If your interested I will explain what my not so cryptic "a subconscious tactical decision tree, all under a hierarchy of conscious decision making" means.. but go read a little before as it will save me a lot of time.
Problem is today people often take opposing opinions as direct personal grievances. My fault really. I should have known better than to claim that most the readers are less clever than the writer. I apologize if you felt included and I apologize for the comment.
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I feel bad for the negative comments because Physician was obviously excited about this. A lot of energy was invested in this article and passion is something to be admired, right?
I too feel the points the article addressed could have been dealt with with less emphasis on the uniqueness of Canata (or an energetic attempt to prove there is one) but I doubt I could have done a better job overall and no one can deny that the illustrations and explanations were very clear, although at times erroneous or at least stretching the truth.
Thanks for sharing.
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Problem is today people often take opposing opinions as direct personal grievances. My fault really. I should have known better than to claim that most the readers are less clever than the writer. I apologize if you felt included and I apologize for the comment.
I haven't taken any personal harm from this.... no worries. I just don't like it when people make statements that they obviously don't understand. You should talk in a more simple manner, because it seems that you don't even understand your own confusing talk.
On November 26 2006 11:50 Physician wrote:
"How did you come up with that name?"
Neurophysiology seems to be a bit out of your league, like they say, the fish dies by his mouth.. could not find it with google? Try visual reflex pathways or cortical visual reflexes or cortical visual pathways. But to answer your question: because I studied and did research for 2 year on human neurophysiology; plus I taught physiology to med students for 3 years.
Sure, I have a strong grasp on Latin. I can put those definitions together and form an idea of what your "cortical visual reflexes" mean. But that doesn't mean it truly exists. I don't care if you claim that you've taught medical students for a few years. Even if it were true, that doesn't mean you're a reliable source for knowledge, as there are 2-3 year instructor commissions for students/instructors who cannot get a stable teaching job at any university and need to test the waters.
"Fish dies by his mouth." Is that a metaphor for: a person loses by opening his mouth? But what makes YOU exempt from being the fish, Sir? All I see you doing is siding with this SenseofStar writer zealously, without actually looking at it and understanding if it actually is true or not. There are plenty of people on this site with more SC knowledge than you. Why have you not questioned it? Blindly following what somebody says is not right. "Walk across the stone bridge you made, even after you have tested it."
Even if you DID know about neurophysiology more than the rest of us, that doesn't qualify you to make decisions for us on the game of Starcraft. I believe that knowing neurophysiology doesn't make you a better Starcraft player in any way. Nor does it make you analyze a player's actions during a game better. So, EVEN IF your neurophysiology qualifications were true, that doesn't give you the authority to stamp out other's opinions on this thread. I merely pointed out that this writer was not completely correct, as are most theorycraft writers.
"Knowledge is most satisfying when you feed yourself, not when somebody feeds you."
Indeed, very good advice, go learn. I did appreciate your first comment, "not so much" (add Borat accent) your second. If your interested I will explain what my not so cryptic "a subconscious tactical decision tree, all under a hierarchy of conscious decision making" means.. but go read a little before as it will save me a lot of time.
Who the hell is Borat? What kind of insert is that supposed to be? It's okay. I know English quite well, thank you. And I see all that as a confusing mass of words that amounts to no meaning at all. If you read my last post, you would see that in the end, it just amounts to unconscious equaling the conscious.
BOTTOM LINE: I'm saying that this writer has good thoughts, indeed. But not the correct thoughts. It's an overanalysis. Just like some students lose points on a theoretical math exam for writing MORE than they need to... this is the same case. He overanalyzed Canata's movement and tried to distinguish it from other Terran progamers. Interesting, I admit, but ultimately incorrect in some senses.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
#WhatisProtoss "that doesn't qualify you to make decisions for us on the game of Starcraft. I believe that knowing neurophysiology doesn't make you a better Starcraft player in any way. Nor does it make you analyze a player's actions during a game better."
My comment was a mild criticism attributing it all to a mere reflex, I spoke little to nothing about what the article mention, just that it was gosu, and that it was, a lot of work went into it for our benefit. Who is making any StarCraft decisions for you (or everyone since you used 'us')? Who questioned your English or your opinion of the article? You did not even mention reflexes in your initial post. You invent motives and thoughts to attribute them as my own, and then starting to argue against them i.e you arguing with yourself.
I just gave my opinion of why it is all just a little more than just mere reflexes and why that article was very nice. I spoke of what I know even, and I am too old to argue for the sake of arguing, as it bores me to no end, so I apologize again, feel free to keep doing so, without me. I rather prefer to enjoy your translations.
#WhatisProtoss "Who the hell is Borat? What kind of insert is that supposed to be?"
Sorry, can't help you there. Check out the General Forum a little more often and you may discover the wonders of Borat, or google it. Tons of it at YouTube. Art stuff.
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this is similar to when everyone got caught up in the foreigner vs korean "game flow" that forU talked about after winning wcg
we all want to find something mystical about brood war, but in reality this is just standard tvz control
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I agree with Trek. It's a pretty good article and certainly Canata's control is good, but it's not like it's all originally Canata's and it's not like he is consciously calculating what will happen next. This is all second nature to him, whereas what he is calculating in his mind is the bigger picture -- where he needs to strike, where he needs to scan to observe tech or expansion attempts, etc.
Canata's control style used in that game is basically "the norm." Canata is better at it than many other gamers are, but it's still pretty standard. NaDa, Boxer and Casy (other gamers mentioned in the article) have atypical unit control that relies on superior precision and/or speed.
So in terms of the conclusions of the article:
1. Canata always secures a favorable position and maximizes the strength of a two-factory build.
2. Though he is surrounded by lurkers, he uses the attack delay of the lurkers to spread out his units and minimize their damage.
3. He continuously reinforces his lines to compensate his losses in battle.
1.) Every player develops their own favorite positions and every player with good game sense will use choke points effectively (note: I'm using "choke point" in a boad strategical sense, which is not limited to the main entrance of your base). This is not so much a conscious effort as it is a reflex ingrained by training.
2.) I do not know a single reasonably skilled player that does not do this. Yes it is true that sometimes players make mistakes (and Canata is better than most about playing perfectly), but no player who doesn't do this deserves mentioning.
3.) This is trickier than the other two to pull off in games, but the very top gamers all at least try to do this, or if they don't reinforce their main army, they simultaneously harrass with a small force elsewhere, often brought to that location by one or more dropships.
It's a good article, but there's nothing revolutionary in there. Yes, Canata is a good example of this since his play is fairly perfect, but he employs a very standard style of unit control, and everything he is doing is ingrained as a reflex. As I said earlier, players like Boxer, Casy and NaDa have very unique unit control, and they often trust their micro to usch an extent that they will enter battles that a player like me would consider suicidal, yet somehow those guys can very often pull it off.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
# Doctorasul I am used to it & learned to live with it..
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I too find it very amusing that physician tries to win conversations with putting in big words freshly tought to him through some latin book he just read.
"Mere reflexes?
I would rather argue they are a myriad of motor, photo-cortical complex reflexes, all the product of many years of training and each guided by semi-conscious decision that a are triggered by higher more conscious decisions"
How can you overanalyse a such a simple word called reflexes into this ? 
Canta did alot of micro in that middlefight, and like most good gamers he had to make alot of decisions based on how the fight evolved, when the lurkers finally burrowed he had to move his marines somehwere and the position he chose was run 2-3 marines behind the lurks and 2-3 marines slightly below the lurkers...it was a reflex move imo ( a move where he didnt have time think twice ) or a "semi-conscious decision that a are triggered by higher more conscious decisions" that you called it.
What would be the difference then from a reflex move and from what he did just now if you wanted to call it "a semi-conscious decision that a are triggered by higher more conscious decisions" ?
I hope you understand that i was talking about the reflex that you will get from training ALOT making you able to do things without havving to think how to do them and if you have time to do them, and not about normal reflexes such as when gagging when something puts a stick down your throat or ducking when someone throws something at you :p
I think we can all agree that canata did some highskill-moves here that a just good player wont be able to manouver just cause in an intense fight there simply isnt enough time to think about the situation for a normal player, experience and/or reflex moves will win you the game ... play hard go pro ;p
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The best part of all his pseudo scientist talk is that he has yet to master contractions, I guess his neuro recto psi emitters aren't firing correctly.
That or grammar is next to brain surgery
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
I understood what you tried to say TreK, I simply made note of a good post and added to the conversation. I already apologized for the implied insult, I should have been more specific instead of leaving it a general comment which is true about most of our community. I am not trying to win anything and the big words are not freshly learned. I wish!
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Reflexes or not, I liked reading it (pictures with arrows!!!), and i think it may be a good read if you want to learn to do something similiar in less than 10 000 tvz:s. 
good find.
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thats kind of the point, it does look easy...and you may be able to do it yourself in an identical situation, but most fights are pretty unique.
So if you want to learn every fight you have to experience different fights again and again ;p
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On November 26 2006 12:51 WhatisProtoss wrote:Show nested quote +Problem is today people often take opposing opinions as direct personal grievances. My fault really. I should have known better than to claim that most the readers are less clever than the writer. I apologize if you felt included and I apologize for the comment. I haven't taken any personal harm from this.... no worries. I just don't like it when people make statements that they obviously don't understand. You should talk in a more simple manner, because it seems that you don't even understand your own confusing talk. Show nested quote +On November 26 2006 11:50 Physician wrote:
"How did you come up with that name?"
Neurophysiology seems to be a bit out of your league, like they say, the fish dies by his mouth.. could not find it with google? Try visual reflex pathways or cortical visual reflexes or cortical visual pathways. But to answer your question: because I studied and did research for 2 year on human neurophysiology; plus I taught physiology to med students for 3 years. Sure, I have a strong grasp on Latin. I can put those definitions together and form an idea of what your "cortical visual reflexes" mean. But that doesn't mean it truly exists. I don't care if you claim that you've taught medical students for a few years. Even if it were true, that doesn't mean you're a reliable source for knowledge, as there are 2-3 year instructor commissions for students/instructors who cannot get a stable teaching job at any university and need to test the waters. "Fish dies by his mouth." Is that a metaphor for: a person loses by opening his mouth? But what makes YOU exempt from being the fish, Sir? All I see you doing is siding with this SenseofStar writer zealously, without actually looking at it and understanding if it actually is true or not. There are plenty of people on this site with more SC knowledge than you. Why have you not questioned it? Blindly following what somebody says is not right. "Walk across the stone bridge you made, even after you have tested it."Even if you DID know about neurophysiology more than the rest of us, that doesn't qualify you to make decisions for us on the game of Starcraft. I believe that knowing neurophysiology doesn't make you a better Starcraft player in any way. Nor does it make you analyze a player's actions during a game better. So, EVEN IF your neurophysiology qualifications were true, that doesn't give you the authority to stamp out other's opinions on this thread. I merely pointed out that this writer was not completely correct, as are most theorycraft writers. Show nested quote +"Knowledge is most satisfying when you feed yourself, not when somebody feeds you."
Indeed, very good advice, go learn. I did appreciate your first comment, "not so much" (add Borat accent) your second. If your interested I will explain what my not so cryptic "a subconscious tactical decision tree, all under a hierarchy of conscious decision making" means.. but go read a little before as it will save me a lot of time. Who the hell is Borat? What kind of insert is that supposed to be? It's okay. I know English quite well, thank you. And I see all that as a confusing mass of words that amounts to no meaning at all. If you read my last post, you would see that in the end, it just amounts to unconscious equaling the conscious. BOTTOM LINE: I'm saying that this writer has good thoughts, indeed. But not the correct thoughts. It's an overanalysis. Just like some students lose points on a theoretical math exam for writing MORE than they need to... this is the same case. He overanalyzed Canata's movement and tried to distinguish it from other Terran progamers. Interesting, I admit, but ultimately incorrect in some senses.
Whatisprotoss, shut the hell up. You're ignorant and you definitely come off that way. At this point you're just trying to salvage your attempts to insult Physician. Just admit defeat. Worst debate skills I've ever seen, trying to shift focus from his neurophysiology credentials being why he is able to label various things to how it somehow becomes his vanity in SC. That might work with morons but anyone can see you are bringing in shitty nonsequiters to support your being an ass to a great forum member. Stop taking the writings of someone (senseofstar guy) as a personal insult; you act like he attacked you in your analysis. Jesus christ. If you're such an intellectual then you'd realize it's not your place to condemn someone's musings/opinions as "ultimately incorrect." Anyone who's taken an entry level philosophy class or even read something past fucking goosebumps should have some knowledge of that concept.
Additionally, if you actually knew shit about the medical profession and weren't basing your insults off of your knowledge of Latin, then you'd realize that people combine words that aren't "in the dictionary" to describe things that have characteristics of more than one type. This is common in daily speech, anywhere, not just the medical profession. It's just more common because you have so many "things" that you might want to combine. Sure photocortical may not be a word, but unless you're being a facetious asshole (check!) and trying to argue, you can easily figure out what it means.
As to how physician can "overcomplicate" things, try reading any medical school text.
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this isnt medical school.
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Yeah, I don't care what DarkNexus says.... At least Physician has the intellect to offer better conversation.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
truth be said.. I am not inventing this..
I showed my 13 year old daughter this thread out pure curiosity for her opinion, I wanted to get her perspective from her age group.. . she read it diligently from top to bottom.. then she stood up and started leaving..
I asked well? what did you think of it?
She said smiling "blah blah argue argue you are all retarded" (me included) and left.. LoL maybe she is right or maybe she has a few of my genes but it made me laugh a lot.. still you have to love tl.net verborragic* debates..
*+ Show Spoiler +questionable word in English
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EPT
