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BW General Discussion - Page 445

Forum Index > BW General
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Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4199 Posts
July 30 2023 07:21 GMT
#8881
On July 28 2023 22:44 29 fps wrote:
Why don't more Terrans get the vessel energy upgrade?

Zergs get the energy upgrade for defilers so they can plague and dark swarm
Protosses get the energy upgrade for arbiters (sometimes) so they can recall and stasis
They also get the energy upgrade for high templar so they can storm sooner (and three times later on).

Terrans seem to benefit if they can irradiate sooner. Yet most terrans lift their science facility as soon as the irradiate upgrade is done. Why is that?


The only reason I can think if after watching years of BW is that by the time Terrans get around to effectively using Vessel energy, it’s usually pretty late game and there are so many other things to do Terrans just forget.

Past 20 mins there’s actually no reason not to get the upgrade, Vessels can irritate much quicker and there’s countless times I’ve seen Protoss get recall off because the Vessel was fresh and didn’t have enough energy.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-30 08:19:41
July 30 2023 08:16 GMT
#8882
There are valid reasons why terran players don't get the energy upgrade.
Most importantly, the upgrade costs 150/150. This is the equivalent of 1.66 marines and 0.66 science vessels (or in a bit rounder numbers: about 2 marines plus more than half of 1 science vessel). Or it's 0.86 of the second infantry weapons/armor upgrade.
Secondly, players often leave the science facility floating next to the natural base to spot mutalisks and later drops. Sending it into the base and returning it next to the natural is an option, but that's additional time and effort, and it temporarily increases vulnerability against drops, muta harassment, or stray scourges.
Thirdly, the upgrade takes time to complete. 1 minute and ~45 seconds to be exact. So for almost two minutes these resources of 150/150 will be locked out of the game and therefore of no practical use until the upgrade is complete. That's a lot of time for a terran player who relies on pressure play with marines, vessels and dropships to win the game decisively.

The question is therefore not whether or not the energy upgrade is viable, but what is the relative cost and benefit.
Science vessels in TvZ rarely reach full energy capacity, so the upgrade would only affect the readiness of fresh vessels. These fresh vessels will usually be sent out with exactly the right amount of energy for their first irradiate, because they're typically being used offensively. So for irradiate it doesn't really make sense. For additional defensive matrix's it could make sense.
So is the cost of the energy upgrade justified? Does it lead to a greater winrate? I have a very hard time believing that. Each single unit is essential while terran is trying to bust the zerg defenses with as many m&ms, vessels and dropships as possible. I don't think the cost-benefit analysis works out.

Edit: This is regarding TvZ. In TvP the energy upgrade could make a lot of sense.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8181 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-30 17:28:56
July 30 2023 17:28 GMT
#8883
Pro terrans do be LOVING to send that science facility out to the middle of the map asap lmao

makes me so happy whenever it gets picked off by mutas like almost immediately sometimes lol (very rare but when it does happen it's pure karmic joy)
Free Palestine
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
July 31 2023 01:34 GMT
#8884
What's your take about FlaSh not participating yet again another ASL? Do you think it's because of scandal or he thinks he's rusty & not ready yet? Can we officialy say he's retired? Seems like we're not going to see him again, at least on 2023. Still crazy there's zero info and none of other pros talked what's going on, at least share his plans for future.
sunbeams are never made like me...
Sd13
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Vietnam186 Posts
July 31 2023 02:24 GMT
#8885
From the ASL Season 16 thread:
On July 29 2023 11:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
action said flash will not be participating on ASL due to health problem preventing him from practicing as planned
정명훈 \m/
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
July 31 2023 16:40 GMT
#8886
On July 31 2023 11:24 Sd13 wrote:
From the ASL Season 16 thread:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2023 11:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
action said flash will not be participating on ASL due to health problem preventing him from practicing as planned


That's very interesting and unexpected to hear. I thought after military his wrists rested well and there would be no issues. Although in other hand his wrists could become too relaxed in 2 years, especially for a pro who almost never took a break this long and now it's hard to maintain that practice regime.
sunbeams are never made like me...
Airneanach
Profile Joined January 2021
United States73 Posts
August 01 2023 01:57 GMT
#8887
[image loading]


Hey friends, looking forward to seeing you all at Chat StarLAN! August 26-27 at Midlane Esports in Chicago!
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/612388-chat-starlan-chicago-august-26-27
Ask not what StarCraft can do for you, ask what you can do for StarCraft
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
August 01 2023 09:12 GMT
#8888
I'm a biased Snow fanboy and this is why. His shenanigans are the best. Timestamped at 52m

If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania9419 Posts
August 01 2023 09:20 GMT
#8889
Unbelivable what he can do with a shuttle and a reaver!

Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
August 01 2023 09:23 GMT
#8890
On August 01 2023 18:20 prosatan wrote:
Unbelivable what he can do with a shuttle and a reaver!



Well, uh. Yes, but that's not the funny thing I posted :/
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
HOLYBATS
Profile Joined August 2021
Turkey850 Posts
August 01 2023 09:25 GMT
#8891
On August 01 2023 18:12 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm a biased Snow fanboy and this is why. His shenanigans are the best. Timestamped at 52m

https://youtu.be/7Atwc0fcOjI?t=3120

Reaver whisperer lol
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
3385 Posts
August 01 2023 09:25 GMT
#8892
That's some sick shit. I know you can glitch scarab over a building but just over a tiny edge like that.
Also the thing he did with only 1 shuttle 1 reaver at the end lol, took down a whole base.
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania9419 Posts
August 01 2023 09:39 GMT
#8893
Yes Magic Powers , i saw that thing he made with a goon vs scarabs

But I think the next phase is so much better
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
August 01 2023 09:43 GMT
#8894
On August 01 2023 18:39 prosatan wrote:
Yes Magic Powers , i saw that thing he made with a goon vs scarabs

But I think the next phase is so much better


Fair :p
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-01 11:34:27
August 01 2023 11:33 GMT
#8895
So ppl still have no clue how scarabs work, though its been explained numerous times.

https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/589171-manipulating-scarabs
-.-
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
August 01 2023 12:34 GMT
#8896
On August 01 2023 20:33 MeSaber wrote:
So ppl still have no clue how scarabs work, though its been explained numerous times.

https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/589171-manipulating-scarabs


We do know, we just find it funny :D
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
ElMakac
Profile Joined February 2021
20 Posts
August 01 2023 15:02 GMT
#8897
your dad in your prime could have maybe picked up a garbage truck
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
3385 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-01 19:50:22
August 01 2023 19:49 GMT
#8898
Look at this ridiculous Lurker movement from Effort:
https://media.fmkorea.com/files/attach/new3/20230802/6042994/4682831821/6027729770/accce493079c7fc6c00e06d15170397f.mp4

How did he spread them like that , answer:
https://media.fmkorea.com/files/attach/new3/20230802/6042994/3157527409/6027744055/40be3aeea164055695bc49503b81fbe2.mp4
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
August 01 2023 20:30 GMT
#8899
On August 02 2023 04:49 TMNT wrote:
Look at this ridiculous Lurker movement from Effort:
https://media.fmkorea.com/files/attach/new3/20230802/6042994/4682831821/6027729770/accce493079c7fc6c00e06d15170397f.mp4

How did he spread them like that , answer:
https://media.fmkorea.com/files/attach/new3/20230802/6042994/3157527409/6027744055/40be3aeea164055695bc49503b81fbe2.mp4


Wow that's quick
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8181 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-01 20:43:45
August 01 2023 20:42 GMT
#8900
When effort is playing at full capacity he's one of the greatest of all time. He can pull off insane micro and multitasking (he's a legend for that burrow play vs Last). Looking forward to this ASL run
Free Palestine
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