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Active: 6210 users

Altering Worker Spawning Position

Forum Index > BW General
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CrystalDrag
Profile Joined July 2010
173 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-05 01:42:38
January 04 2013 00:42 GMT
#1
Ello everyone. This CrystalDrag from www.broodwarmaps.net

I experimented with this, and I don't know any other person to claim to find this...
Or any other map to do this before me...
So i guess i discover it?

This is to possibly change how pro maps might work.... ^^ or other map makers in general.

Article on BWMN

Terms for article--------------------------------------
+ Show Spoiler +
HCN - Hatchery,Command Center, and Nexus collectively. Refers to any of the races.
*Not to be confused with hydrogen cyanide


Introduction and Purpose--------------------------------------
+ Show Spoiler +
Purpose of this article to change the worker spawning locations, in relation to the HCN.

This is an extension of improving worker spawning locations, mainly the idea of putting supply depot next to the Command Center. I was inspired by SCII and how their workers spawned, and how that would be much more important for BroodWar. I first tried temples, and then i discovered the List of Unit and Building Sizes. So then i tested with buildings specified and to see how far i could overlap the start location with the buildings, changing the worker position as well as avoid the bug stack problem. Fellow Mapper Freakling Implimented the idea of using Hallucinated Mineral Fields, as i myself never used hallucination much.

The purpose of this article is to allow equal mining, for an example, minerals on top of the HCN as compared to the left/right/bottom.
This can also lead to mineral formations based in the corners of the HCN, and better worker positioning there.


Background Information--------------------------------------
+ Show Spoiler +
In an original spawn, Terran and Protoss have their Command Center Spawn, and then their workers.
In my observations, in a Zerg spawn, the Hatchery spawns, the creep spawns, one drone is spawned, the three larva are spawned, the next three drones are spawned, then the Overlord spawns a bit away from the corner of the hatchery that is closest to (respectively pointing towards) the center of the map.

The normal spawning position for units of production facilities is below the bottom left corner, then at the next spot with enough room for the respective unit counterclockwise from there if all other spots in clockwise direction are blocked by either any units or terrain.

For those who SimCity, the buildings of SCBW does not fully occupy their entire matrix. This can present a problem if you use a wrong building.

Must be 12th Player (Neutral)


How to Do--------------------------------------
+ Show Spoiler +
*Turning "debug/display unit collision boxes" in the "Debug" Tab of SCMDraft2 on is a good idea. You can pre-place everything as a building and then just place the unit sprite just on top of it (simple pixel-matching), finally remove the building.
*For Minerals Fields, you must disable mining distance required.

First, knowing which way you want your workers to spawn at is important.
*For two player maps, there are two options; sprite buildings or hallucinated mineral fields. For three players or greater, hallucinated minerals must be used.
*For two player maps, sprite buildings are acceptable because there are only two possible spawning locations..
*For three player maps, sprite buildings would appear on the map, if a player does not spawn at the specific place. Hallucinated Mineral Field will vanish after a certain amount of time, therefore leaving the future game play unaffected when the expansion to the mains occur.
*BUILDINGS(maybe mineral fields) CANNOT BE USED FOR THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE HCN. USE HALLUCINATED CRITTERS INSTEAD.

Next, you must choose a non-movable object that you wish to use. Units that do not match with their matrices exactly are therefore less desirable than other ones.
Buildings that occupy entire area are the Zerg Nydus Canal, Protoss Temple, Warp Gate, Mature Chrysalis, and Stasis Prison.
Mineral Field occupy the entire area they take.

You must then take the buildings/minerals and border then along the HCN.
Then displace the Hallucinated Mineral Field one pixel towards the HCN,
And for buildings The sprite must be placed one pixel towards the HCN.
The original reference building can be deleted.


Example--------------------------------------
+ Show Spoiler +
Using Mineral Fields
1. Basic Main Setup
[image loading]

2. Setting Proper Settings, and adding Basic minerals.
[image loading]
[image loading]

3. Placing of new Mineral Fields
[image loading]

4. After deleting the old mineral fields(Hardest to do Part), Set to hallucination
[image loading]


Samples of Uses--------------------------------------
+ Show Spoiler +
*Note Mineral Fields Not yet touching the HCN

Currently being updated.


Stack Bug Issue--------------------------------------
+ Show Spoiler +
If buildings/minerals are too far placed, a Stack Bug can occur. This Happened to me when i tried this initially.
[image loading]

Freakling::
The stack bug, mentioned in the article, is a real problem, and also appears if you place overlapping minerals (or any building-unit) at the right side of the HCN.
Hallucinated critters are an alternative.
If you use neutral buildings instead, the problem is that on maps with more than 2 spawns, the free spawns will have neutral buildings partially blocking them.
There's one neat thing you can do with that, though: place neutral command centers on each spawn of a (3) map, and you'll get an infestable CC for Zerg on the free spawn in each game

If any unit is overlapping the 4x3 tile area that makes up a spawn point (i.e. the initial CC/Nex/Hatch) at game start, it is removed (the exact order seems to be place CC/Hatch/Nex/place workers [hence the position changing works], finally remove the unit). If that unit is a building-unit (this includes resources), it can happen that the part of the main building [CC/Nex/Hatch], that would have been covered by the removed building, becomes buildable again (any full overlapping tiles will become buildable, as well as tile-high overlaps of only one pixel [or more obviously] a the right side of the spawn [hence you cannot use buildings to move workers beyond the right side], other partial overlaps depend [it's complicated]...)
So, because part (or all) of the area, that's taken up by your initial main building is buildable now, you can stack further buildings on it (only one stack, after that the engine will correctly recognize that area as build on, but the bug won't disappear, even if you repeatedly destroy and rebuild the stacked buildings, unless the main building itself is destroyed or, in case of a CC, lifted).

First of, it's just something that will alienate players, it's something one is not used to, that is not supposed to happen, that one would not expect.
But there are some serious balance/gameplay implications as well.
Think protoss vs. x: Manner pylon? Laughable. We can go manner proxy gateway now!
Or just defensively , you could place pylons/sunks/canons that are [almost] unreachable for melee units and hard to target (i.e. click on) for any other unit. Just think of a ZvZ with an invincible sunken in the main...
Other abuses, that I haven't tried out yet, is, if the stack bug applies to the whole spawn point (the whole 4x3 tile area of your main building) you could try one of the following things:
I. TvP: Build a CC or factory on top of the enemy Nexus (both have larger collision boxes than a Nex) and thereby stop probes from returning gathered resources (not sure if this even works, but if it did...)
[image loading]

II. ZvP [or ZvT]: Abuse the smaller collision box of hatches to place a proxy hatch right on top of the enemy main building, where it would be hard (or even impossible) to reach by melee units) [not tested as well]...
[image loading]

However, melee units still have a little bit of range and hence may still be able to hit a stacked building.



Things to Keep in Mind-------------------------------------
+ Show Spoiler +
Zerg creep will not be present in the beginning of the game where the buildings/minerals have been, but refills fast enough before any possible spawning pool.
[image loading]


Maps to First Use--------------------------------------
+ Show Spoiler +
Graveyard Gardens, My first failed attempt.
Demonio Azul, Using minerals not displayed.
MASASHI, Created by Me.


Thanks to Freakling for more insight about this. Parts of the article with much more sophisticated language is his.
mca64[KDV]
Profile Joined May 2012
Poland463 Posts
January 04 2013 01:02 GMT
#2
is it for all or for first 4 scvs?
CoL_DarkstaR
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany649 Posts
January 04 2013 01:03 GMT
#3
While the game was obviously perfectly balanced without this kind of change, i find it ridiculous that we see this 14 years after BW was released. It really strikes me how korean pro map makers haven't thought about changing this small but really aesthetic factor. Looks pleasing to me, although not necessary.

Good job!
CrystalDrag
Profile Joined July 2010
173 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-04 01:19:17
January 04 2013 01:18 GMT
#4
It is for All four workers at beginning. The Buildings/Minerals at the HCN vanish at the start of the game.
I am korean, but not pro map maker... but thank you

This mainly for some of the maps... such as (3)Great Reef Barrier and (3) Triathlon , where one of the starting positions workers must travel a slight more to reach the minerals.
NotJumperer
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States1371 Posts
January 04 2013 01:27 GMT
#5
--- Nuked ---
Xeofreestyler
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Belgium6777 Posts
January 04 2013 01:44 GMT
#6
Mind = blown
Graphics
kmdkt
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada22 Posts
January 04 2013 01:51 GMT
#7
this is incredible! good job!
iG.kmdkt
Funnytoss
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Taiwan1471 Posts
January 04 2013 02:20 GMT
#8
This opens up so many possibilities for balanced map making, since there were some spawning positions that weren't possible due to longer initial mining distances! Wonderful simple fix.
AIV_Funnytoss and sGs.Funnytoss on iCCup
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
January 04 2013 02:28 GMT
#9
How did you even come up with this? Sick find. o.o
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Pucca
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Taiwan1280 Posts
January 04 2013 03:03 GMT
#10
Is there actual statics of how many more minerals this will give each player?
Master Chief
sM.Zik
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada2553 Posts
January 04 2013 03:14 GMT
#11
More minerals is always a good thing.
Jaedong Fighting! | youtube.com/ZikGaming
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66364 Posts
January 04 2013 03:19 GMT
#12
think i saw this somewhere where someone used a neutral temple to achieve the same results. regardless, this will possibly open up to more balanced / rotation symmetrical maps
POGGERS
1a2a3a[MB]
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States297 Posts
January 04 2013 03:26 GMT
#13
good smart idea try remake the maps for better larva 1v1 maps where left side (example heart break ridge) zerg has advantage because larva spawns are better.
RIP Teams Hwaseung OZ, WeMadeFox, MBC Game Hero, Air Force ACE, ZeNEX, SlayerS, Quantic-Vile, TSL, mTw
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9808 Posts
January 04 2013 03:30 GMT
#14
This is really cool. Can something similar be done to make all gases equal?
boomer hands
chaosTheory_14cc
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada1270 Posts
January 04 2013 04:32 GMT
#15
Very cool, it will be interesting to see how balance is affected in future map making. It would be cool if this were implemented in some current maps to see the changes though.
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5500 Posts
January 04 2013 04:37 GMT
#16
Hahaha, amazing. How did you manage to find this?
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10524 Posts
January 04 2013 04:38 GMT
#17
oooo so THATS what those temples were for... i always wonered... very nice and cool design!
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10345 Posts
January 04 2013 04:42 GMT
#18
On January 04 2013 11:28 r.Evo wrote:
How did you even come up with this? Sick find. o.o

Players have been using buildings to help spawn positions of their workers (note: obviously not initial 4) for a long time, I think this is a logical extension of that.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
January 04 2013 04:44 GMT
#19
In the example, I see that zerg only spawns with one larva. Is this normal if you use this trick or are the larva simply stacked? Spawning with 1 larva compared to three hugely impacts zerg. :/
darkness overpowering
CrystalDrag
Profile Joined July 2010
173 Posts
January 04 2013 04:56 GMT
#20
@ghrur - No the larva are stacked.

@Pucca - No statistics, but relative to another player, they will have the equal mineral income at the same time, and one player will not have a slightly delayed initial worker production.

@seRapH - No, the gases are always going to remain unequal. The races themselves also affect the efficiency of each geyser.
Here are some articles on gas issue that BWMN has researched 3 years ago?
+ Show Spoiler +
Article 1
Article 2
Map


@Jealous + r.Evo - This is an extension of that, mainly the idea of putting supply depot next to the Command Center. I was inspired by SCII and how their workers spawned, and how that would be much more important for BroodWar. I first tried temples, and then i discovered the List of Unit and Building Sizes. So then i tested with buildings specified and to see how far i could overlap the start location with the buildings, changing the worker position as well as avoid the bug stack problem. Fellow Mapper Freakling Implimented the idea of using Hallucinated Mineral Fields, as i myself never used hallucination much.
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
January 04 2013 05:40 GMT
#21
I was thinking this would be the supplydepot or overlord trick to alter worker spawns.

It's interesting, not sure how applicable it is.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
January 04 2013 07:00 GMT
#22
Time and again, that old wisdom is proven - BW minerals are the best minerals. Well done, amazing!
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
January 04 2013 07:01 GMT
#23
Well its not applicable for gamers, its more for map-makers, this way they can make it so for all spawn points, the workers spawn and equal distance away from the minerals.

Also Crystal, is it better to use hallucinated minerals, this way in like 3/4 player maps you wont have buildings spawned in the other locations?
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5500 Posts
January 04 2013 07:18 GMT
#24
On January 04 2013 12:03 Pucca wrote:
Is there actual statics of how many more minerals this will give each player?

This would be very interesting to know!
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1534 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-04 10:21:10
January 04 2013 10:17 GMT
#25
Where this is useful? -
Normally you really really want to avoid placing minerals at the top of main hatch/CC/Nex. Simply because a good worker split is hard to do at that position and will always delay you initial income a bit - which subsequently will delay all worker production (until the point where you would cut workers first at least), which aggregates to a small, but definitely noticeable econ disadvantage.
Exact numbers depend on the actual setup of minerals, the map and the player micro of course.
But even without exact numbers, it's not only a matter of actual disadvantage, but also of player comfort.

This problem usually occurs on 3-player maps that have a start position on the top side of the map. Look at Great Barrier Reef, Outsider, Ouloer, Triathlon or Aztec for example, they all have at least a major part of their mineral lines to the side, although that makes them more vulnerable.

However, the solution isn't as straight forward...

The stack bug, mentioned in the article, is a real problem, and also appears if you place overlapping minerals (or any building-unit) at the right side of the SL.
Hallucinated critters are an alternative.
If you use neutral buildings instead, the problem is that on maps with more than 2 spawns, the free spawns will have neutral buildings partially blocking them.
There's one neat thing you can do with that, though: place neutral command centers on each spawn of a (3) map, and you'll get an infestable CC for Zerg on the free spawn in each game. Example: + Show Spoiler +
(3)Ürbän Wärfärë Täctïxxx
[image loading]
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
January 04 2013 15:06 GMT
#26
what if u block all area around main building? Peons are being spawned?
TL+ Member
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
January 04 2013 17:28 GMT
#27
They'll probably be spawned below the CHN, except a lot more than usual so there'll be empty space between workers and CHN...just my guess..
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
CrystalDrag
Profile Joined July 2010
173 Posts
January 04 2013 18:38 GMT
#28
They will not be created at all.
LML
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Germany1794 Posts
January 04 2013 20:08 GMT
#29
On January 04 2013 12:19 konadora wrote:
think i saw this somewhere where someone used a neutral temple to achieve the same results. regardless, this will possibly open up to more balanced / rotation symmetrical maps


yea, definitely not the first attempt to do something like this, it has been there before but never really was anything that anyone cared about enough to use it as it's not really a problem, usually at least.

btw, why are some of the pictures having full mineral fields? Just set it to 0 minerals and hallucinations in order to make it so that players do not gain any extra minerals and also don't have to bother with these.
LML
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
January 04 2013 20:33 GMT
#30
How does the stack bug work? Like what problems does it cause and what causes it?
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1534 Posts
January 04 2013 21:47 GMT
#31
What causes it/how does it work?:
If any unit is overlapping the 4x3 tile area that makes up a spawn point (i.e. the initial CC/Nex/Hatch) at game start, it is removed (the exact order seems to be place CC/Hatch/Nex/place workers [hence the position changing works], finally remove the unit). If that unit is a building-unit (this includes resources), it can happen that the part of the main building [CC/Nex/Hatch], that would have been covered by the removed building, becomes buildable again (any full overlapping tiles will become buildable, as well as tile-high overlaps of only one pixel [or more obviously] a the right side of the spawn [hence you cannot use buildings to move workers beyond the right side], other partial overlaps depend [it's complicated]...)
So, because part (or all) of the area, that's taken up by your initial main building is buildable now, you can stack further buildings on it (only one stack, after that the engine will correctly recognize that area as build on, but the bug won't disappear, even if you repeatedly destroy and rebuild the stacked buildings, unless the main building itself is destroyed or, in case of a CC, lifted).

So what's the problem?:
First of, it's just something that will alienate players, it's something one is not used to, that is not supposed to happen, that one would not expect.
But there are some serious balance/gameplay implications as well.
Think protoss vs. x: Manner pylon? Laughable. We can go manner proxy gateway now!
Or just defensively , you could place pylons/sunks/canons that are [almost] unreachable for melee units and hard to target (i.e. click on) for any other unit. Just think of a ZvZ with an invincible sunken in the main...
Other abuses, that I haven't tried out yet, is, if the stack bug applies to the whole spawn point (the whole 4x3 tile area of your main building) you could try one of the following things:
I. TvP: Build a CC or factory on top of the enemy Nexus (both have larger collision boxes than a Nex) and thereby stop probes from returning gathered resources (not sure if this even works, but if it did...)
II. ZvP [or ZvT]: Abuse the smaller collision box of hatches to place a proxy hatch right on top of the enemy main building, where it would be hard (or even impossible) to reach by melee units) [not tested as well]...
However, melee units still have a little bit of range and hence may still be able to hit a stacked building.
But I am sure, some will test it out immediately
Foolishness *
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3044 Posts
January 05 2013 00:00 GMT
#32
This is such a great idea. The amount of work you put into this is fantastic.
geript: "Foolishness's cases are persuasive and reasonable but leave you feeling dirty afterwards. Kinda like a whore." ---- Manager of the TL Mafia forum, come play!
CrystalDrag
Profile Joined July 2010
173 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-05 01:44:13
January 05 2013 01:27 GMT
#33
[image loading]

Terran and Protoss cannot build on hatchery, because of creep.

[image loading]

Apparently very strange for jerg.

if a HCN is completely obscured by neutral buildings, then workers will spawn farther away.
Andd anyway... Terran hardly has melee units, and protoss zealots do have range enough to hit the hatchery.
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
January 05 2013 01:59 GMT
#34
Lol that's interesting...
Also, if a player were to build their buildings arranged around the CHN ingame in the proper positions, would that spawn them on the close side to the minerals? Not very practical but useful to kno...
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1534 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-06 12:38:43
January 05 2013 09:36 GMT
#35
Depends... if the gap between the collusion boxes of the buildings involved (including your main building) is big enough to allow workers to fit in , they'll likely spawn between the buildings...
Spawning principles for StarCraft are very simple: Start below the bottom left corner of the building, if that spot is blocked, spawn counterclockwise at the nearest spot, were the spawned unit would fit in, if there's no space, display "building exit is blocked" message and don't spawn...

Crystal, does the first picture mean, that it actually works?
CrystalDrag
Profile Joined July 2010
173 Posts
January 07 2013 14:32 GMT
#36
@freakling yes it does actually work, but the time it would take to float a CC... However, if a protoss player were to see a floating factory/cc going towards the nexus, a probe right next to the nexus would prevent it from landing.
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