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Map stats: testing whether a map is balanced - Page 3

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CaucasianAsian
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Korea (South)11593 Posts
December 27 2005 23:33 GMT
#41
well Gaia TvT is inbalanced. bottom right is impossible to tank gas from before bridge and yet the others it is very easy. i've lost a few times because of this...
Calendar@ Fish Server: `iOps]..Stark
mitsy
Profile Joined October 2005
United States1792 Posts
December 27 2005 23:48 GMT
#42
with all the race picking on pgt and the predictable but improportionate behavior of newbies, it seems easy to speculate that the "winning strength" avg of races will vary a few points.
express yourself--madonna
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
December 28 2005 01:06 GMT
#43
Well, what strikes me most is the question that needs answering: what defines imbalance. Is it purely based on statistics? If so, at what skill level should we sample? Or do we take a simple random sample of gamers and look at their win percentages against each race?

In ym mind, these approaches miss something: there is a difference between imblance and "tricky." So when is a map "tricky" versus imbalanced? In my mind, it's "tricky" if there are only a couple of viable approaches to playing the map, which require some minimal degree of skill to pull off. For instance, ZvP on Estrella. Is it imbalanced or is it tricky? From my experiences, nobody I can't beat consistently on land maps ZvP is someone I can't beat consistently ZvP on Estrella. Granted, I have never played someone whose PvZ is equal in skill to my ZvP on Estrella, but it should be telling that it is winnable. By comparison, ZvP on Gorky island takes all my energy. I have never lost on Gorky, but I refuse to ever play it again because I know that even players who I can whomp all over have a good chance against me there. The difference, of course, is the easy to expand to tiny island above the main. P with 2 gases means lots of upgraded corsairs, and by taking other mains around the map, the Protoss can wear me down and keep me from playing a centrally dominated late game as I can on Estrella.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Bill307
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada9103 Posts
December 28 2005 02:25 GMT
#44
On December 27 2005 07:05 oneofthem wrote:
hey, i don't think you can set pwins to .5 except in mirror matchups. to evaluate the empirical fairness of a map you must get the map-neutral winning percentage of each MU.


pwin is our hypothesized win ratio, so that is not a problem.

When considering every game, the sample size is bigger, and a bigger sample size is always good to make quality interpretations.


Actually that it not necessarily true. Having such a large number of lower-level PGT players in our sample makes our analyses less applicable to higher-level PGT players. Ultimately it depends on who your target population is.
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
December 28 2005 02:32 GMT
#45
But you can't ignore higher level ranks either, because some of those games played at the D ranks are from people who inevitably made B or higher.

As interesting as it may be to look at the actual statistics, they don't quite tell the full story. There are too many factors that are not quantifiable.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
December 28 2005 04:37 GMT
#46
Er, your trying to figure out if a map is ballanced for a certain matchup based on statistics and play. This beggs the question and brings actors into play. What players whan to be convinced of is that a certain race matchup on a certain map is far before they play. That the match will come down to skill and choice, not things that are present beforehand. Is there a way to just consider just the maps and races? Plug in the specifications and get results...

My second question is what kind of system do the pro leagues use for picking maps? Do they just have them made and hope for the best? Do they test them?
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
panschk[FP]
Profile Joined May 2005
Germany148 Posts
December 28 2005 22:36 GMT
#47
they do test of course. But afaik in the end interesting gameplay > perfect balance for them. I agree actually, balancing is not everything.
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