Anyway, after last nights god awful play against KT Rolster, it was clear something was wrong with the team. What I witnessed then, was probably the most uninspiring set of performances in Proleague history. Not only were the losses fast and lopsided, they were all losses that could have been easily avoided (or at least, made less gut wrenching to observe).
I have a few opinions on why Team 8 (once dubbed the 'Dream Team') is now dead last on the Proleague table, and have seem to lost all motivation to play well.
a) Lack of Coaching Staff Go look at each teams roster and their staff. See how many coaches each of the teams have? Then look at Team 8's. Only one single coach.
With the game being so much complex than it was half a decade ago, there is no wonder teams have dedicated coaches. Clearly, Team 8 is starting to fall behind on the other teams. While Han Sang-yong is a well rounded coach (former kickboxer, also known as Fighter[gm]), he cannot handle the entire load. Contrary to this, the team's head coach, Ju Hoon is next to useless. He barely has any in-depth game knowledge, and his 'sports psychology' isn't going to do any good right now.
b) Lack of players Team 8 doesn't have the network of practice partners the other teams have. This also means (and we've seen this already), they are forced to play the same five or so players over and over again. Give Ryul2, Saber, Sang and Speed a damn chance, else you're going to burn out Jaedong/Baby/Sea (I think it's clear at least two of them seem burned out already). In particular, I have high hopes for Sang, he did pretty well last season. I haven't seen him once this season.
c) Uncertain future. They have no sponsors, they have no individual leagues to focus on, and there is a high likelihood that KeSPA will transition from BW to SC2 after the season has concluded. Their poor play at the moment definitely won't be getting any new sponsors in. Maybe they are just waiting for SC2? Who knows.
Anyway, those are some of my thoughts. Just wondering what everyone else thinks on Team 8 right now.
and please, don't argue about BW vs SC2 in here, for god sakes
Yeah, that's a conundrum I've been wanting to ask too. On paper, everyone would give them a chance to be a serious contender for top 3 spots, but in reality... oh well
I just hope they get a sponsor ASAP, so their motivation hopefully goes up.
I haven't seen the matches but i definitely think they need 3-4 coaches if they are to succeed. Like you said, one person simply doesn't have enough to give when it comes to coaching a team of this caliber. I wouldn't be suprised if the coach isn't already burned out as well. I wouldn't mind seeing those players transition to sc2 though....can you imagine Jaedong being all around the map as zerg, o m g.
Personally, I think the coaching staff is lacking. In particular, Coach Ju is really out of touch with the scene as well as it's current players and this is showing.
Edit: Okay, yah. I'm angry so I'll just say it outright. Coach Ju is incompetent.
I agree with most of your points, especially regarding the coaching situation. I still have high hopes for them and will not stop cheering for them. They have to treat it like any sports team and have a nice compliment of coaching staff who specialize in other areas.
When WeMade Fox was around I was a fan of their's because of the players but they also were like T8 is currently. On paper they should have been a top contender but when it comes to motivation and playing their best games day in day out it just seemed to be non existent.
With Sang, Ryul2 and Speed I agree they should be given a chance, it would make the other team question who they are going to face so they cannot just prepare for the usual 5.
Another thing is, give them more cheerful uniforms, I mean if I had to show up to everygame dressed up like I am in a society like 1984 I would also be depressed.
They also might know what is in store for them in the future and it might not be too bright as wel(hopefully I am wrong)l. I am hoping for the best going on, but if they do not change how they are doing things, they are in for a long season.
Yeah, I think you nailed the main reasons for Team 8’s lacklustre performance. On top of that, coach Han Sang-yong seems to be incredibly harsh. I’m aware of the fact that Korean culture is a lot stricter but this guy appears to be playing in a league of his own. This might add pressure to a team with an already uncertain feature.
What's with Team 8? They are at the bottom, and they 3-0 KT?? Jaehoon beating Flash??!!
What's with Team 8? Haven't seen today's games yet (waiting for Sayle's rebroadcast in English), I'm really concerned they are at the bottom, I hope they did well against KT!
Did kespa make a huge mistake by hiring Coach Ju as the head Coach ? Could former we made fox or hwazeung oz previous coach was the better choice . Now that I think about it maybe the whole idea of forming a team without having a competent coach who has not kept up with times is the biggest problem that's happening with team 8 .
Also not taking in to account that samsung khan has like 2 coaches for each race , giving them analysis on their game , current play style of their opponents and ton's of motivation . Makes team 8 really kind of the underdog here T_T.
imo, most importantly, it's because they don't have a sponsor and the future is very uncertain; it's hard to focus on your current situation when you don't know where your team is headed.
also, other teams really exploit Team 8's lineup, given that they have so few players...
Lack of spirit, if you ask me. There's no real sense of comradeship in these players from what I can gather. I can't imagine how their practice sessions are like, but probably not going as well as is normal for a major team. They also need more players, and especially more solid protosses. It's really sad, I expected them to be in the finals.
They also don't have a very good protosses in a decently protoss friendly environment (so far). ACE has been on a tear since Kal started playing. STX has been surging with Dear getting inserted into the lineup lately. The top two teams CJ and SKT have very good protoss lineups.
Team8 shoulda kept Shy and Dear, though I'm not one to complain since we nabbed Shy. Hwaseung Oz actually looks better than Team8 on paper so far into the season.
There aren't many players who immediately perform well after being traded and such.
Apply that to the entire team. And then consider the fact that many of the players didn't practice for over a month during the off season since the teams disbanded (this is more serious than you think!). Add on to the fact that the players aren't in the best playing environment ever (it's actually significantly worse)
Also consider the fact that since Team 8 only essentially has 6 players, their picks on the maps are predictable. This makes it a lot easier for other teams to snipe them.
Dunno why there's hate on Team 8's manager o_O I don't think he pulled off anything that's terribly disappointing yet. Most of the times his entries go as they want it to (for example, Sea *wanted* to play against Kal in the game vs Ace). Just give it time instead of calling anyone incompetent. You guys are terrible. There's many reasons why Team 8 isn't "performing" and honestly I'd just give them time instead of being angry over something this stupid
At least Jaedong showed some emotion today, shows he still cares. I wish the coaches let some of the rookies play though. They can't do worse than Sea surely - -
I concur, that the points listed are what could be making Team 8 under perform severely. But if that is the case, what can be changed or done about it? Nothing right?
What are the chances that Kespa will sack the coach and bring in someone else? If they did, even though for the better, it'll still cause some turmoil and further instability with the team. I just don't see it happening.
They also lack the funds to hire other coaches and players, you'd have to have people volunteering to be practice partners/coach. As for sending out the rookies, that's something that can be done, but I feel like Coach Ju is a little stubborn. He might be basing everything all on the in house ranking, which is why I think he keeps sending Sea to play against a protoss (he might be doing very well against P inside the team), or maybe he's just bad and other coaches are exploiting him, I don't know. This is the only thing I feel (sending out rookies) that can be remedied immediately.
As for not having a sponsor, there's definitely mounting pressure there, but that's going to remain until they start doing better, it's like a horrible cycle. I'm running out of optimism. So I can't help but feel like nothing is going to change and that they'll continue their downfall :/
On January 11 2012 00:12 figq wrote: Lack of spirit, if you ask me. There's no real sense of comradeship in these players from what I can gather. I can't imagine how their practice sessions are like, but probably not going as well as is normal for a major team.
From the tidbits of info we get and the twitter pictures, I get the feeling that the players meld together nicely, but maybe that's not the same as comradeship.
even in other professional sports, players tend to need some time to adapt to their team (look at football. torres hasnt adapted to chelsea after 1 year). team 8 is a whole new team, so every single player has to adapt.
i hope thats pretty much the reason, as it would mean that they will start performing well soon. but who knows
Lack of players on the team is a huge one. I always see the same 5 people played for T8 with the occasional Tyson slipping in once in a blue moon. T8 may need to start looking at some fresh blood and raising them to be the next big thing. Maybe we'll see some boom with the OSL season starts (and we see Jaedong become beast mode) coming in but some more players for PL would strongly benefit T8.
On January 11 2012 00:34 ArvickHero wrote: The mistake was to keep T8 small .. way too fucking small. Not even Coach Park or Cho can make T8 work
Well i'm not sure how they could afford that many more salaries
I mean i'm sure dong / sea / baby / killer is already pretty intensive to sustain with no sponsor
They raised the salaries for all T8 players when they formed the team .. when the players stated that they wouldn't mind even if they had lowered salaries
After watching them get stomped again and again it just seems like they lack the motivation and team unity that seems to be present in the more successful teams. One of the keys to success that was needed for Team 8 was a strong start this season to get the momentum going, and with their lackluster performance it was really hard to get their feet off the ground. They also seem to be too predictable in who they send out as well.
All of team 8 need to be effing dragged to the T1 practice house by gigantic Korean bodygaurds that forcibly silence Park's outburst and protests and bind FBB, Hyuk, Flash, Zero, and FBH to chairs with signs planted at the front entrance that say "IN THE NAME OF BROOD WAR" and practice with every single one of Team 8 until they are all resuscitated in a massive fulmination of BW inspiritment and invigoration.
Man everyone ragging on Coach Ju Hoon makes me sad. Everyone was so excited when he was announced as Coach/Manager. It reminds me of what Oov said in his recent interview about how much blame coaches get when players don't perform. Sounds like a really thankless job : /.
On January 11 2012 01:00 imperator-xy wrote: its probably more complicated than we think.
even in other professional sports, players tend to need some time to adapt to their team (look at football. torres hasnt adapted to chelsea after 1 year). team 8 is a whole new team, so every single player has to adapt.
i hope thats pretty much the reason, as it would mean that they will start performing well soon. but who knows
I don't think it is a good comparison, Football is team sport, while in proleague they all go to play one on one.
The lack of a coaching staff and practice partners are maybe the biggest reason for them underperforming so much. This maybe was a problem already in Hwaseung OZ: just look at how well the Hwaseung protosses are doing in other teams now. On the other hand all of the players in T8 are underperforming - especially Babys game vs kt was horrible. And they are playing worse and worse for every game. In the beginning of the season Jaedong and Baby atleast looked really good.
The games that Jaedong has dropped has all been to different timings - especially the two games against terran. Maybe he needs a coaching staff to help him with keeping up with the metagame?
On January 11 2012 01:07 Taekwon wrote: All of team 8 need to be effing dragged to the T1 practice house by gigantic Korean bodygaurds that forcibly silence Park's outburst and protests and bind FBB, Hyuk, Flash, Zero, and FBH to chairs with signs planted at the front entrance that say "IN THE NAME OF BROOD WAR" and practice with every single one of Team 8 until they are all resuscitated in a massive fulmination of BW inspiritment and invigoration.
No STX was harmed in the making of this post.
this is true
it really isnt fair how limited team 8's in-house practice is
On January 11 2012 00:34 ArvickHero wrote: The mistake was to keep T8 small .. way too fucking small. Not even Coach Park or Cho can make T8 work
Well i'm not sure how they could afford that many more salaries
I mean i'm sure dong / sea / baby / killer is already pretty intensive to sustain with no sponsor
They raised the salaries for all T8 players when they formed the team .. when the players stated that they wouldn't mind even if they had lowered salaries
;/
They just want to fucking play. BW is what they know.
Here's the thing guys. We have an incredibly small sample size. Bo5's leave very and I mean very small margin of error. Sure, you can say guys focus on one map and prepare for certain match-ups all you want. That hasn't changed, but Team 8 is spread incredibly thin.
With regards to Jaedong,
He really hasn't impressed me at all this season even with his win against Mind as he's playing incredibly risky and other players really can take advantage of that. There are a lot of holes that need to be patched up. That is for sure.
wow, b4 thiscthread I never knew team 8 also had other rookirs. I agree on that They def need screen time to incrrase the teams variety and unpredictability, having to play the same players over and over again really hurts. And Baby is on a 3 game loss streak o_O
Watching Team 8 play is so depressing for me as a fan of SC:BW. Once upon a time, they were all good if not great players who enjoyed playing the game, had fun with their teammates, and provided us with great entertainment. Now they seem so... miserable. I hate to say it, but the end to their time as a team, let alone a dream team, seems to be quickly approaching.
On January 10 2012 23:30 j2choe wrote: Thread title is a bit of a spoiler so soon after the games have ended no?
Considering one match didn't land them in the bottom it is not really. I thought it was about the team overall.
I disagree, I saw this title and it was painfully obvious Team8 lost. Maybe doesn't give away how embarrasing it was, but it totally ruined it for me -_-.
Sea is obviously in a huge slump. Killer and Jaehoon are overrated. JD have been a bit disappointing, but right now I'm willing to shrug it off as bad luck and recklessness. Baby is pretty much performing as expected. The results are actually not that surprising.
It's also worth mentioning that the other teams have become stronger. CJ now have Effort and Hydra. SKT obviously have Bisu and Fantasy, and KT's Stats have improved a lot, and now makes a deadly duo with Flash. Woongjin have Soulkey breaking out as a top player, and makes the team really strong along with Zero. Jangbi have found his game again, so KHAN now have 2 deadly dragons. When you look at those players, JD and Baby as the ace players of T8 looks pretty ordinary, but unlike the other teams, T8 have pretty much nothing else to fall back on right now. They have a decent player in Killer, but that's it. If Sea wasn't slumping, things would be different, but I still don't think they would be strong enough to compete with the top 3.
Of course, depth is a huge issue for this team. When Clam is not performing for STX, Last rises to the occasion. T8 just can't afford to have players slumping, because they can't replace them.
I've always been a huge JD fan, and of course, I'll always be one. But if Jaedong OZ was bad, the new situation is becoming a nightmare. I really hope that T8 will improve their performance, but right now it's highly doubtable.
If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
The lack of sponsors may be a minor factor contributing to the abysmal performance. However, it should not affect the performance of the players since KeSPA is still providing a somewhat stable salaries for them. Well, IMO as long as BW Proleague is around, T8 will still exist until they find themselves the sponsor.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
Yeah, Sea's TvP was quite solid last season. Kespa should have recruited the protoss players he used to practice with instead of Jaehoon, Tyson and Sang. And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
On January 11 2012 00:27 Milkis wrote: There aren't many players who immediately perform well after being traded and such.
Apply that to the entire team. And then consider the fact that many of the players didn't practice for over a month during the off season since the teams disbanded (this is more serious than you think!). Add on to the fact that the players aren't in the best playing environment ever (it's actually significantly worse)
Also consider the fact that since Team 8 only essentially has 6 players, their picks on the maps are predictable. This makes it a lot easier for other teams to snipe them.
Dunno why there's hate on Team 8's manager o_O I don't think he pulled off anything that's terribly disappointing yet. Most of the times his entries go as they want it to (for example, Sea *wanted* to play against Kal in the game vs Ace). Just give it time instead of calling anyone incompetent. You guys are terrible. There's many reasons why Team 8 isn't "performing" and honestly I'd just give them time instead of being angry over something this stupid
Good points about the acclimation factor and scarcity of players. However, when a team does poorly, blame also gets directed at the coaches and managers. This is seen in many other sports, and in truth, a certain responsibility does fall on them. Furthermore, I do think this speculation is fair, especially considering the hype and expectations that Team 8 originally had at the beginning of the season.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
Yeah, Sea's TvP was quite solid last season. Kespa should have recruited the protoss players he used to practice with instead of Jaehoon, Tyson and Sang. And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
Yeah, Sea's TvP was quite solid last season. Kespa should have recruited the protoss players he used to practice with instead of Jaehoon, Tyson and Sang. And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
T8's entire protoss line came from MBC actually.
That would be the point Ryo is trying to make to everyone blaming Sea's "new" practice partners.
There's nothing they can do about the lack of coaches. Coach Han is a volunteer; he doesn't even get paid. How many other people are going to be willing to do the same?
If you're gonna create a team - do it right. Proper practice environments, coaches etc. The players have a lot to overcome just by being in a new team and having new coaches. But burdening them further with bad housing, lack of practice partners and lack of coaches? Those guys have given so much of their time to the game and they deserve better.
I think it's that they don't have enough players. A player like Sea only has a couple of players to practice his tvp so maybe he's not being exposed to enough different styles which would explain why t8 is getting cheesed out in many games or when the opponents use an unorthodox playstyle like in the canata vs jaedong game.
I'm not surprised Team 8 is having a hard time bringing good results. Despite having an awesome roster, Team 8 is still technically an expansion team. Statistically, expansion teams in any sport do poorly in their first year because it takes a bit of time for everyone (coaching staff, players, ect) to gel. Add in the other points brought up (lack of money, not enough practice partners) and it's easy to see why Team 8 is losing. I'm just worried the lack of wins will cause Kespa to drop the team.
The other issue is that t8 doesn't really have enough players to play a full game of soccer. (And definitely not enough to practice and have in team games)
This destroys team interaction and the ability for t8 to intimidate other teams by fielding their many s-class soccer players.
don't they have like an assistant coach (the coach from hwaseung oz right before the team disbanded)? also, i think the lack of players really does have a large effect on their performace as lack of players = lack of practice partners. but then again i'd think that all the members would practice with their former teammates and other friends. i think another large factor that contributes to their lackluster performance is the huge lack of predictability in their lineup. team 8's coach doesn't really like to mix his lineup around.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
Yeah, Sea's TvP was quite solid last season. Kespa should have recruited the protoss players he used to practice with instead of Jaehoon, Tyson and Sang. And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
I understand what you're trying to say, but out of the 3 races line, don't you feel the protoss line is not performing comparably to other two? Has the manager no confidence in sending out both Jaehoon and Tyson on the same matches? Jaedong did lose to BeSt and Snow, and both aren't exactly known for their PvZ.
Sea's TvP is supposed to be solid >50%. Yet he's 1-7 in TvP, granted he did face opponents known for their PvT, but he lost to both Dear and sHy, ex-Hwaseung OZ toss rookies now helping their own team to victories.
I'll be blunt and say the entire team's vP has stagnated.
the fact that everyone is performing below par vP tells you what you need to know about the importance of good practice partners, but in addition the coaching is just obviously not there, with preparation and with lineups
On January 11 2012 02:30 ninini wrote: Sea is obviously in a huge slump. Killer and Jaehoon are overrated. JD have been a bit disappointing, but right now I'm willing to shrug it off as bad luck and recklessness. Baby is pretty much performing as expected. The results are actually not that surprising.
It's also worth mentioning that the other teams have become stronger. CJ now have Effort and Hydra. SKT obviously have Bisu and Fantasy, and KT's Stats have improved a lot, and now makes a deadly duo with Flash. Woongjin have Soulkey breaking out as a top player, and makes the team really strong along with Zero. Jangbi have found his game again, so KHAN now have 2 deadly dragons. When you look at those players, JD and Baby as the ace players of T8 looks pretty ordinary, but unlike the other teams, T8 have pretty much nothing else to fall back on right now. They have a decent player in Killer, but that's it. If Sea wasn't slumping, things would be different, but I still don't think they would be strong enough to compete with the top 3.
Of course, depth is a huge issue for this team. When Clam is not performing for STX, Last rises to the occasion. T8 just can't afford to have players slumping, because they can't replace them.
I'm sorry but you're wrong about Jaehoon.
No one has ever hyped Jaehoon to be something he's not. If you asked anyone on this forum what they think about Jaehoon (anyone who is decently informed about the scene that is) I'm almost positive that they would say that he is a solid Toss, not S-class, but solid nonetheless. He is NOT overrated. He got 30 wins last Proleague, it's not a stretch to say he is a good player. But no one thinks he is up there with players like Flash or Stork or what have you.
Furthermore, let's look at his performance so far in the Proleague. He is currently at 2 wins, 5 losses. On the face of it that sounds pretty bad, but 3 of those 5 losses came against Flash, Bisu, and Zero, all S-class players.
Guys, I'd like to point out the fact that they were actually winning in the beginning, their games were more solid and planned. There need to be something done, as soon as possible, otherwise we're going to see my rage advice of JD applying to ACE come true.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
Yeah, Sea's TvP was quite solid last season. Kespa should have recruited the protoss players he used to practice with instead of Jaehoon, Tyson and Sang. And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
I understand what you're trying to say, but out of the 3 races line, don't you feel the protoss line is not performing comparably to other two? Has the manager no confidence in sending out both Jaehoon and Tyson on the same matches? Jaedong did lose to BeSt and Snow, and both aren't exactly known for their PvZ.
Sea's TvP is supposed to be solid >50%. Yet he's 1-7 in TvP, granted he did face opponents known for their PvT, but he lost to both Dear and sHy, ex-Hwaseung OZ toss rookies now helping their own team to victories.
I'll be blunt and say the entire team's vP has stagnated.
I don't know why people make so much hype about what the Protoss line should be doing. Let's get real here. It's Jaehoon and Tyson, not Stork and Bisu. Jaehoon is 2-5 right now and Tyson is 1-2, which sounds bad but is a lot more explainable when you consider the players that they've faced.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
Yeah, Sea's TvP was quite solid last season. Kespa should have recruited the protoss players he used to practice with instead of Jaehoon, Tyson and Sang. And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
I understand what you're trying to say, but out of the 3 races line, don't you feel the protoss line is not performing comparably to other two? Has the manager no confidence in sending out both Jaehoon and Tyson on the same matches? Jaedong did lose to BeSt and Snow, and both aren't exactly known for their PvZ.
Sea's TvP is supposed to be solid >50%. Yet he's 1-7 in TvP, granted he did face opponents known for their PvT, but he lost to both Dear and sHy, ex-Hwaseung OZ toss rookies now helping their own team to victories.
I'll be blunt and say the entire team's vP has stagnated.
I don't know why people make so much hype about what the Protoss line should be doing. Let's get real here. It's Jaehoon and Tyson, not Stork and Bisu. Jaehoon is 2-5 right now and Tyson is 1-2, which sounds bad but is a lot more explainable when you consider the players that they've faced.
i don't think anybody said jaehoon and tyson should play better, or that they expect them to
- Presure to find a sponsor - Presure from an unknown future - Lacking a deep roster of players - Lacking good coaches, 1 is not enough - New team, new teams always struggle
I would put most on the first 2 points, players are not used to that kind of presure, they play the game they practice presure from matches sure, but presure from wether you don't know what the future is like would be something that entirerly can mess your head up, let's not forget all these players had troubled times when there teams disolved aswell.
Generaly everything is taken care of for a BW player, not so for team 8 so there mind can not be 100% with starcraft.
Just give them some more time, remember that their pre-season preparation was really short.Sea getting unlucky/cheesed each game doesn't help either, as well as Jaedong playing badly. I agree that their lineup should be more flexible, mixed, less predictable - these rookies can't be so bad that they don't deserve a single chance on stage. If theres nothing else bothering them, outside of the game, for example they know that they are going to disband after this season, i believe that all they need is time, and few more practice partners to play with, as well as at least 1 more coach. Team8 fighting~
Now that I thought about it more, all their games point to a mere lack of practicing diversity and preparation. They just keep getting owned by non-standard play or cheeses, ALL OF THEM!!!
yeah, they've been killing my liquibets too. Coming into the season their lineup looked insane, and removal of the ACE match seemed almost like KESPA was trying to custom make Team 8 awesome while simultaneously hurting KT and to a lesser extent SKT. So i thought, yeah, team 8 is going to be awesome.
But they've been really really underperforming. I hope something picks up for them, such an all star cast should get some limelight for their hardwork, it's unfortunate, things like sponsors, future of scbw/kespa and coaching staff is all out of their control =T
On January 11 2012 02:30 ninini wrote: Sea is obviously in a huge slump. Killer and Jaehoon are overrated. JD have been a bit disappointing, but right now I'm willing to shrug it off as bad luck and recklessness. Baby is pretty much performing as expected. The results are actually not that surprising.
It's also worth mentioning that the other teams have become stronger. CJ now have Effort and Hydra. SKT obviously have Bisu and Fantasy, and KT's Stats have improved a lot, and now makes a deadly duo with Flash. Woongjin have Soulkey breaking out as a top player, and makes the team really strong along with Zero. Jangbi have found his game again, so KHAN now have 2 deadly dragons. When you look at those players, JD and Baby as the ace players of T8 looks pretty ordinary, but unlike the other teams, T8 have pretty much nothing else to fall back on right now. They have a decent player in Killer, but that's it. If Sea wasn't slumping, things would be different, but I still don't think they would be strong enough to compete with the top 3.
Of course, depth is a huge issue for this team. When Clam is not performing for STX, Last rises to the occasion. T8 just can't afford to have players slumping, because they can't replace them.
I'm sorry but you're wrong about Jaehoon.
No one has ever hyped Jaehoon to be something he's not. If you asked anyone on this forum what they think about Jaehoon (anyone who is decently informed about the scene that is) I'm almost positive that they would say that he is a solid Toss, not S-class, but solid nonetheless. He is NOT overrated. He got 30 wins last Proleague, it's not a stretch to say he is a good player. But no one thinks he is up there with players like Flash or Stork or what have you.
Furthermore, let's look at his performance so far in the Proleague. He is currently at 2 wins, 5 losses. On the face of it that sounds pretty bad, but 3 of those 5 losses came against Flash, Bisu, and Zero, all S-class players.
I'm saying Jaehoon's last season was a fluke. I don't think we can expect more than a 40% winrate from him, especially not under the new system with bo5's.
I never watched anything but BoxeR highlights before SC2 came out, but have been enjoying proleague matches whenever I get the chance since I started watching pro SC2.
This was just...embarassing. Team 8s performance was abysmal and passionless. I've never seen such lopsided games or such thoughtless play from top-level pros.
They are either going to respond by going on a tear, or just completely collapse.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
Yeah, Sea's TvP was quite solid last season. Kespa should have recruited the protoss players he used to practice with instead of Jaehoon, Tyson and Sang. And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
I understand what you're trying to say, but out of the 3 races line, don't you feel the protoss line is not performing comparably to other two? Has the manager no confidence in sending out both Jaehoon and Tyson on the same matches? Jaedong did lose to BeSt and Snow, and both aren't exactly known for their PvZ.
Sea's TvP is supposed to be solid >50%. Yet he's 1-7 in TvP, granted he did face opponents known for their PvT, but he lost to both Dear and sHy, ex-Hwaseung OZ toss rookies now helping their own team to victories.
I'll be blunt and say the entire team's vP has stagnated.
The manager doesn't often send out Tyson because he wants to send out his 5 best players in a Bo5. And it so happens his 6th best player is a protoss.
Of course the protoss line is not performing as well as the other two. Has anyone ever expected Jaehoon and Tyson to outperform the likes of Jaedong, Baby and Sea?
Jaedong's ZvP has been on the decline for awhile now. And how is it Sea's practice partners' fault if Sea is under-performing in TvP when they're the exact same players he's practiced with for the past 6 years. You're not making sense. I'm done arguing about this.
I'm sure it's about 80%-90% point c. Having the thought that you could be out of a job at any point, whether it's a conscious or sub-conscious thought, is obviously extremely stressful, and is a stress that the other players don't really have, at least at the level of team 8.
point a is the other 10%-20%, since obviously having a coach gives you a huge advantage, and the players themeselves are probably acting as their own coaches atm, which obviously detracts from practice.
Doubt it's point b though. All these guys are well respected within the small progaming community, and I'm pretty sure players practice with players from other teams, though I could obviously be dead wrong.
I think it has been proven that throwing very talented athletes together at random doesn't always yield wins or titles. I'm sure they are going through some adjustment issues just like any other human beings who are suddenly thrown together into living in close quarters, as well as the lack of a stable sponsor.
Yeah that's why I don't watch em play anymore cause it hurts to watch such good players get wrecked :-/. I think they're probably gonna switch to SC2. Their loyal fans will follow them and they would get sponsors in no time considering they're still legends. With MLG, NASL, GSL, IPL, WCG, ESWC and Blizzcon..switching to SC2 seems like a good option in their eyes...FXO Manager said Top BW Pros would be switching..Maybe these are the guys ? Sucks they would be leaving the pro scene but hey nothing lasts forever ..
Its been very sad for me to watch jaedong past months in general and yeah in general team 8 isn't doing as good as I thought they would either. It sucks . Hopefully they turn things around but idk just might not happen very pessimistic about it to be honest.
On January 11 2012 05:56 sM.Zik wrote: To everyone bitchin about spoilers : WHY DONT YOU GO WATCH THE DAMN GAMES BEFORES READING THE FORUMS omg you guys are ANNOYING seriously.
What do you expect !?!?!?!?!?!?
>>go to teamliquid.net to watch Sayle's rebroadcast >>topic title pops up on sidebar
Wasn't even reading the forums, spoilers right on the front page of TL
They didn't practice for over a month, are in a new team (which rarely makes players play better immediately), and they are SO predictable when it comes to map picks. It's not hard to snipe t8's players when you can be like 90% sure of who is coming out when. Oh, I forgot that this is also probably the most stacked PL we've had in a while - every team has a good line-up. Even STX and Ace are quite scary.
Give them some time before you start bashing them,
I think the coach hate is really unjustified. While I do agree they could use another coach or two to help out with strategies / analysis and such, how many players do you know of that played spectacular right after transferring teams? Pretty much every single one transferee went into a slump following their transfer in the past, now apply that to the entire team, + the lack of sponsor and general decline of BW, and it's not too surprising to see them not doing so well.
On top of that, when you have a new transfer join SKT or CJ, even if they slump hard and lose 10 games in a row, their team is still winning, so it's probably easier to stay motivated. When you have a situation like this, with their entire team being a transfer, and all of them performing weaker than they 'should', I'd imagine its super easy to get demoralized and start losing even more.
At any rate, I really hope they can overcome their troubles - seeing Jaedong's face after his loss today was heartbreaking.
JD's expression after losing that game , it sure hell isn't the lack of passion from the players (He looked like he wanted to murder someone)
I think the current problem is that the team is too small and players simply have too much pressure placed them to clear their mind and just play comfortably. Remember how awful Jangbi (the paewang era) was before he actually broke through his psychological blocks and then he won an OSL. Hoping for the same here
The appointment of Head Coach Ju was not a bad choice by KeSPA. He is one of the most prolific coaches in the history of SCBW with his triple crown (in his time as SKT head coach). They even picked up former Hwaseung Oz head coach, Coach Han. Considering that there is no sponsor, it was amazing that KeSPA would be willing to pay for both of them, plus all the players (their salaries stayed same or better compared to last year with their former teams).
I do agree that an additional coach or two would definitely be an asset to the team, but it's just not realistic at the moment with no sponsor. However, I think it's the lack of in-house practice partners that's really hurting the team. Sure, progamers practice with each other across teams but I highly doubt they use map-specific-would-use-in-next-match strategic plays against each other. From what we've read in winners interviews, players usually credit their teammates (not friends on other teams) for practice time + strategic refinement.
There are so many gaps to fill, most of which can probably be addressed with a proper sponsor - so we can only hope for some eSports love from Korean companies.
On January 11 2012 02:36 sinistral wrote: If only T8 can improve their protoss line to be honest. Jaehoon and Tyson isn't going to be good enough practice partner for the rest of the main players, and only 1 protoss rookie to help out isn't going to cut it.
Yeah, Sea's TvP was quite solid last season. Kespa should have recruited the protoss players he used to practice with instead of Jaehoon, Tyson and Sang. And it's also Jaehoon's fault that Jaedong lost to Canata and Flash. He really sucks at TvZ.
I'll be blunt and say the entire team's vP has stagnated.
On the contrary, I think Protoss are doing very well this season (maps, maybe?), and unfortunately T8's P lineup isn't the best. D:
On January 11 2012 07:08 Sinedd wrote: this looks pretty grim atm if you ask me -.-
I think they need to find some sponsor like quicklyyy or else we might see the fall of this team...
which would be very sad...
I think its the lack of players and coaches that is killing this team..
hopefully all will be good and they will perform better than this...
also I didnt hear about KeSPa changing to SC2 ? is this true ? ...
They might add sc2 into the mix, but it would make no sense for them to even start t8 and then stop supporting BW, so I don't think you have to worry about that at all.
They also don't have enough to field a full soccer team. They don't have the ability to intimidate the other teams despite having many good players capable of scoring goals.
On January 11 2012 07:08 Sinedd wrote: this looks pretty grim atm if you ask me -.-
I think they need to find some sponsor like quicklyyy or else we might see the fall of this team...
which would be very sad...
I think its the lack of players and coaches that is killing this team..
hopefully all will be good and they will perform better than this...
also I didnt hear about KeSPa changing to SC2 ? is this true ? ...
They might add sc2 into the mix, but it would make no sense for them to even start t8 and then stop supporting BW, so I don't think you have to worry about that at all.
If I was a CEO of a big-name company, seeing how T8 is performing currently is for sure as hell not making me want to sponsor them. Team 8 has to fight their way back for them to even be considered being sponsored, and it sucks because they are human and going through change and being put in new environments you are unfamiliar with is not the easiest thing to do
On the other hand, good investors know to buy weak stocks that can be significantly improved under the good management. ...Too bad that most of the economic principles do not apply to the purchase of game team though.
Team 8 is an expensive bunch with their salaries, seriously doubt any company wants to risk a large amount of money for an obvious failing team. If team 8 saw decent results and surely not last place, then companies can consider that big financial risk and see some potential profit. Damn JD pick it up son
I have faith. Those games were garbage but it's tough times and Team 8 have to be more stressed then other teams about their futures. JD is 4-1 vs Flash in recent history, though I believe Flash is ahead now in their cumulative matches. I've also seen sweat toss lose in more spectacular ways.
On January 11 2012 03:58 o[twist] wrote: the fact that everyone is performing below par vP tells you what you need to know about the importance of good practice partners, but in addition the coaching is just obviously not there, with preparation and with lineups
Given the legendary fail that is the SKT Zerg-line, I'm saying that's so much nonsense. What might be more important is a variety of practice partners, which is one thing we've seen commented on before, i.e. with ACE.
tbh, this the title is a spoiler itself. Missed the games earlier, but if i were a Team 8 fan, id be sorely pissed. anyway, im happy kt won, but really wish team 8 could perform to their real caliber!
The problem with T8 is that there is no real new blood appearing in their games. Same 5/6 player lineup, Jaedong/Sea/Baby/Jaehoon/Killer/Tyson. You need to recruit newer players, get more practice people.
Sniping is too easy. Seriously, of course Jaedong is going to appear on Ground Zero, and of course FlaSh is going to "snipe" Jaedong there. They have to do a better job of players on these maps, like try to snipe. However their sniping ability is not there due to the fact that they have no players to throw away. They need all 5/6 of their players, and if you throw one away, its like throwing the whole series away.
On January 11 2012 10:39 FlaShFTW wrote: The problem with T8 is that there is no real new blood appearing in their games. Same 5/6 player lineup, Jaedong/Sea/Baby/Jaehoon/Killer/Tyson. You need to recruit newer players, get more practice people.
Sniping is too easy. Seriously, of course Jaedong is going to appear on Ground Zero, and of course FlaSh is going to "snipe" Jaedong there. They have to do a better job of players on these maps, like try to snipe. However their sniping ability is not there due to the fact that they have no players to throw away. They need all 5/6 of their players, and if you throw one away, its like throwing the whole series away.
I think this is exacerbated by the bo5 format.I'm pretty convinced at this point that the bo7 format was better than bo5 in pretty much every way possible.
On January 11 2012 10:18 Antisocialmunky wrote: That's too bad, but Airforce Ace is much in the same boat. Hopefully they can iron it out this season.
Ace is 4-5 and actually are playing well even in defeat.
T8 is just awful. They would be 1-8 if it wasn't for KT randomly choking a 2-0 lead away the first time they met.
Um, neither one of them has a ton of coaching/staffing resources. That's what I was referring to. ACE does get help from other team's practice partners though so T8 probably will get that or already have that now.
On January 11 2012 05:26 Colonial wrote: Yeah that's why I don't watch em play anymore cause it hurts to watch such good players get wrecked :-/. I think they're probably gonna switch to SC2. Their loyal fans will follow them and they would get sponsors in no time considering they're still legends. With MLG, NASL, GSL, IPL, WCG, ESWC and Blizzcon..switching to SC2 seems like a good option in their eyes...FXO Manager said Top BW Pros would be switching..Maybe these are the guys ? Sucks they would be leaving the pro scene but hey nothing lasts forever ..
people won't follow sc2 just because their favorite players switched. if that was the case SC2 would be a hell of a lot more popular in korea than it actually is with the likes of nada/boxer/july playing it.
I propose TL allow a T8 insignia, or whatever we call that thing in the bottom right hand corner of our posts.
I also propose that every single person on here be forced to wear said badge, be they a SKT/KT/CJ/KHAN/ACE/Stars/one of the 3 STX fans, until some rich Korean business owner visits TL and sees the overwhelming support the team has and decides to sponser them.
or just give people the option of wearing one. i'd do it
Yes, I feel that after the slow start they had, they have lost motivation as well. You have to think about that. Playing like your life is on the line and losing games you should win EASILY, it must KILL their spirit. They are a new team, a young team, a small team. A TALENTED TEAM, but an unmotivated team will never play their best and will ALWAYS make mistakes. Maybe they just gave up.
Another thing, could this be the end of jaedong? This proleague season, he has looked...human...as he has for a while. His ZvT at times looks untouchable, but at times, like last night, his ZvT looks useless.
Whatever the case, I hope it turns around and quick, because the end of brood war is coming, and for such talented players to out like this, it's just a travesty.
I agree with everything you said GTR. If anyone ever says that teams in Starcraft are nothing more than a collection of outstanding individuals, I will point them to the current proleague standings.
On January 11 2012 11:11 gwaihir wrote: didnt somebody of FXO blog that there is/are team/teams already playing sc2 all the time? could it possibly be that it is Team 8?
Very unlikely. I do not see why Kespa would pull a team out of BW and into SC2 when they worked so hard to create a new team after MBCgamehero, Wemadefox and Oz disbanded. If anything, that would really hurt the proleague.
No sponsors , no additional practice partners to practice with and also no playing coaches to help their players with their game too . Seriously I think team 8 , has to randomized their line up by sending in the rookies to surprise their rather fixated line up's which are easily snipe by other team coaches . Although I am weary whether the rookies are really that good as team 8 main players .
On January 11 2012 07:28 Archers_bane wrote: If I was a CEO of a big-name company, seeing how T8 is performing currently is for sure as hell not making me want to sponsor them. Team 8 has to fight their way back for them to even be considered being sponsored, and it sucks because they are human and going through change and being put in new environments you are unfamiliar with is not the easiest thing to do
The problem is MUCH deeper than T8's performance that is limiting sponsors. yes, T8 is doing shit but any sane person knows that they have star power and more fan support than many of the current BW teams. Sponsors gain revenue via publicity with a team....T8 qualifies this goal a thousand times over.
If I was a CEO, I would sponsor T8 in a heartbeat even over most of the other teams, even though T8 was risky and would under-perform. This is because T8 has great star power and potential to become the best AND they already have so much publicity due to their back story and of course..JAEDONG. HE ALONE would be enough reason to sponsor, but ALSO baby and sea?! Who the hell wouldn't sponsor that team?
Well....no one is! But it is not because of their performance, rather....I fear the major issue lies within the fact that the scene is weakening. Sponsors know that a shift may occur so they do not want to invest in something that may not be here in a year! It takes time to make a new team and prepare all the logistics. Revenue for sponsors supporting a new team will NOT come in a short time. To make up for the initial investment and capital, the sponsors would need to stick with the team for many years.
The fact that no one is sponsoring Jaedong and his boys...who obviously WOULD ROCK the scene after just one year of real team support, may sadly imply that even a year is too long for sponsors. they want everything NOW because they feel as if...i cant say it but you know.
But I do agree with the fact that if T8 did "WTF amazing" then it could revitalize the whole scene. Obviously I understand that being last is not helping.
wow i really wish there were some way to avoid reading posts with sc2 in them, that's the last thing i need in this damn thread right now. give me a break, baby and sea and killer and jaedong moving to sc2? are you kidding? any team would be happy to have those four, i mean who knows about the Ps but they could easily find work in bw even if t8 were to disband. i imagine going to sc2 would be a huge pay cut as well
And I thought it's because the uniforms make them look like inmates, reminding them of forced labor in Chinese prisons were the prisoners are forced to mine gold in WoW
Just finished watching the vods! Oh god wow! THat was such a horrible game for everybody! I think there is a tempest brewing amongst the players! They dont even look interested
The combination of the current BW scene uncertainty and the poor showing of Team 8 is the reason they don't have a sponsor. I have a hard time believing that no one wants to sponsor a team that has as much star power/pull as T8 solely because they're not performing right at this very moment.
By the way, I think it's too quick to damn Team 8... give them some time...
On January 11 2012 13:33 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Just finished watching the vods! Oh god wow! THat was such a horrible game for everybody! I think there is a tempest brewing amongst the players! They dont even look interested
I would argue that they seemed more emotional than usual, especially jaedong. Even losing rarely phases him...
Sea is just going on a large tvp losing streak. I mean 7 straight tvp matches? That's terrible luck given that tvp is his worst match up. I will admit that Jaedong's game last night was a huge facepalm/wtf moment.
What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
On January 11 2012 14:55 firehand101 wrote: Its hard to play without motivation. I think their best bet is to get JD to start SC2 to practice and get ahead :S
no way. maybe some other player but not JD. that would tarnish his bw legacy. JD will switch when everyone else switches. he CANNOT jump ship now when he is sinking. it will make him look bad. he isnt a quitter.
Watch the end of the VOD of Jaehoon's lost yesterday where Coach Ju makes him do some half-hearted high fives. It smacks of a desperate attempt to foster some team spirit followed unenthusiastically by players bound to follow him but who no longer believe. I really hope they find that team spirit.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Hm I think it's a matter of reviving Jaedong. Teams in other sports follow the performance of their aces (look at Dirk Nowitzki last year). That's called leadership. And while a lot of teams have backup aces in case their main one starts slumping (T1 is a good example), someone of Jaedong's caliber really needs to step up to give life to his team. I'm not dumping the blame on him, but he really needs to start playing like the Jaedong of old - balls of steel, nerves of steel, and the killer instinct that propelled him to the throne of BW.
Where Jaedong goes, so too shall Sea and Killer and Baby follow. With all of them performing in peak condition, even T1 would be, at the most, evenly matched with them, and at worst, be annihilated.
jaedong looked fine 2 weeks ago. he just had 2 uncharacteristic bad loses in a row vs canata and flash. I'm sure he'll bounce right back. I mean FFS he was just ranked #1 zerg on PR for a reason.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
Even title called [spoilers]Team 8 was pretty informative regarding the outcome of the match. And it's really hard to not see when looking for the Small Vod thread update.
How about a stricter policy for thread names until the vod thread is updated? I was really waiting for these games, even if my favorite team lost hardcore. I think this issue has to be discussed since not everyone can watch games live.
On January 11 2012 19:17 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote: Even title called [spoilers]Team 8 was pretty informative regarding the outcome of the match. And it's really hard to not see when looking for the Small Vod thread update.
How about a stricter policy for thread names until the vod thread is updated? I was really waiting for these games, even if my favorite team lost hardcore. I think this issue has to be discussed since not everyone can watch games live.
Bookmark small vod thread and don't read TL before watching already played games.You can't ask everyone and everything to be changed because of you missing a match.
There is nothing seriously wrong with JD people need to chill a bit. JD took a reasonable gamble against god, you don't do this if you have confidence issues.
His PvZ is also pretty good despite losing, he has a new style because it works. Watch the actual vp games this season, they were more JD failing rather than his skills deteriorating. He 10-0 Bisu using a smurf, I know it was smurf but if I were down 3 straight games against a random zerg I would play the hardest I can the next 7 games. He is just going through a rough patch, no need to over react.
Killer got shoot to stardom after winning ONE game against Fantasy and Baby was on wemade =.=. The hate on Jaehoon is also getting ridiculous.
I didn't read the entire thread. I'm just gonna make a quick reply on what i thought about just jaedong specifically before I go to bed. In the flash vs jaedong game, flash sent out 4 rines to try and catch his overlord but jaedong stopped the overlord midway so that it wouldn't die. However doing this made jaedong have no vision of flash's nat and he even lost the initial two zerglings that are supposed to see when terran moves out at the standard timing to force lings and sunkens.
As proof of this, flash did this SAME thing to sOo the game before(made the overlord stop midway so that he can't have a overlord floating over flash's nat to see when his forces move out)and got the same ez win as he did vs jaedong. So can we say sOo was lacking motivation too cuz he lost the exact same way jaedong did?
While I agree that Jaedong might be playing without much motivation right now, I don't doubt jaedong was giving it his all that game and flash's brilliance can't be ignored here. /end flash bias
On January 11 2012 19:31 TrainSamurai wrote: He 10-0 Bisu using a smurf, I know it was smurf but if I were down 3 straight games against a random zerg I would play the hardest I can the next 7 games.
On January 11 2012 19:31 TrainSamurai wrote: He 10-0 Bisu using a smurf, I know it was smurf but if I were down 3 straight games against a random zerg I would play the hardest I can the next 7 games.
On January 11 2012 19:37 _Quasar_ wrote: b) is very reasonable. If Sea is performing so bad - give a chance to another Terran. Same with Tyson/Failhoon. Try to field out another protoss.
I didn't read the entire thread. I'm just gonna make a quick reply on what i thought about just jaedong specifically before I go to bed. In the flash vs jaedong game, flash sent out 4 rines to try and catch his overlord but jaedong stopped the overlord midway so that it wouldn't die. However doing this made jaedong have no vision of flash's nat and he even lost the initial two zerglings that are supposed to see when terran moves out at the standard timing to force lings and sunkens.
As proof of this, flash did this SAME thing to sOo the game before(made the overlord stop midway so that he can't have a overlord floating over flash's nat to see when his forces move out)and got the same ez win as he did vs jaedong. So can we say sOo was lacking motivation too cuz he lost the exact same way jaedong did?
While I agree that Jaedong might be playing without much motivation right now, I don't doubt jaedong was giving it his all that game and flash's brilliance can't be ignored here. /end flash bias
Is capitalizing soO wrongly some kind of running joke i'm missing out on?
I already fielded my T8 woes in many threads, not really much to say here, gotta be a real hard time for the people who have to figure out how to turn T8 into a functioning team.
he should have made at least a sunken when he lost those 2 lings to 8 marines, how was he ever gonna live with 2lings against 8marines, even without support. I don't see a reason to trash on Jd though, he's just in a bit of a rollercoaster-form, it's not all bad.
On January 11 2012 19:31 TrainSamurai wrote: He 10-0 Bisu using a smurf, I know it was smurf but if I were down 3 straight games against a random zerg I would play the hardest I can the next 7 games.
On January 11 2012 19:17 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote: Even title called [spoilers]Team 8 was pretty informative regarding the outcome of the match. And it's really hard to not see when looking for the Small Vod thread update.
How about a stricter policy for thread names until the vod thread is updated? I was really waiting for these games, even if my favorite team lost hardcore. I think this issue has to be discussed since not everyone can watch games live.
Bookmark small vod thread and don't read TL before watching already played games.You can't ask everyone and everything to be changed because of you missing a match.
I'm not asking everyone and everything to be changed, and I'm certainly not the only one who got spoiled <.< Just hoping that people were a bit more careful at least until the vods are up on the thread. And I couldn't have bookmarked it because I was using someone else's computer.
I find it interesting that in the latest Jaedong interview, he said he wanted to get back into the rookie mindset. The coach knows how to make that happen, I'm sure. But so far, Jaedong has played in every single series. So he wants to think like a rookie and the coach wants him to be the team's superstar... Something's gotta give there.
That being said, I think Jaedong is doing ok, aside from a couple stupid games. Baby is, too. The rest of the team is failing them.
On January 12 2012 09:29 Archers_bane wrote: Killer is awol too, he needs to have that individual league mindset that got him to the semis
Killer didn't get into RO4, he got eliminated the round before last OSL I'm really hoping Team 8 bounces back and wins season 2, of PL + Show Spoiler +
Please... TT Jaehoon, Killer get back into winning form, and the rookies should get some playing time
On January 10 2012 23:58 Cambium wrote: imo, most importantly, it's because they don't have a sponsor and the future is very uncertain; it's hard to focus on your current situation when you don't know where your team is headed.
also, other teams really exploit Team 8's lineup, given that they have so few players...
I think it's more like they play the same players every game... Jd, sea, JH... makes it very very predictable!
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
Seriously, BW is the only game worth watching, really. If BW dies I don't care what happens to anything else.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
This. I always just liked BW but all of a sudden with the release of SC2 I was supposed to start caring about eSports.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
Some people actually care about the players themselves
On January 12 2012 12:38 asdfTT123 wrote: Should have gotten more/better coaches.
Should have gotten HiyA.
Hiya would have been good for the team. He may not be better than sea or baby skill wise but he had a personality which may have helped team 8 jive better. That is often the problem with on paper dream teams. They don't mesh well.
Instead of taking only 6 established players (of whom I feel Killer, Jaehoon, and Tyson are not desirable enough on any freestanding team to warrant a significant pay raise when trying to SALVAGE their jobs) and 3 rookies (2 of whom have no PL or SL experience), I think that team8 should have looked to at least pick up a few more established players who have known skill (HiyA comes to mind ) while picking up more rookies (I wish they picked up shy, although that is coming mostly from seeing his decent results in PL, he was known to be quite talented in hwaseung as well). More players = more competition and a variety of practice partners is useful even when you practice with the best. players like Flash and Jaedong have succeeded at the highest stages of the game while practicing hardcore with some unknown practice partners - that kind of variety should help more imo.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
This. I always just liked BW but all of a sudden with the release of SC2 I was supposed to start caring about eSports.
Honestly after SC2 came out, I became a rapid BW fan. I have NEVER defended something as if my life depend on it to my peers before that. I still remember the shitstorms up in my face when 4 of my acquaintances were talking down Brood War and using the generic "But StarCraft 2 have better graphic, look how old the Brood War's graphic is!" argument. Oh man did my blood boil.
Later on, I 1 v 3 them on FS and they were playing with a laughable combination of mere 2 hotkeys.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
This. I always just liked BW but all of a sudden with the release of SC2 I was supposed to start caring about eSports.
Honestly after SC2 came out, I became a rapid BW fan. I have NEVER defended something as if my life depend on it to my peers before that. I still remember the shitstorms up in my face when 4 of my acquaintances were talking down Brood War and using the generic "But StarCraft 2 have better graphic, look how old the Brood War's graphic is!" argument. Oh man did my blood boil.
Later on, I 1 v 3 them on FS and they were playing with a laughable combination of mere 2 hotkeys.
Good man! Last time I 1v2 my sc2 friends they swore off BW forever...guess hellions aren't as annoying as vultures? lololol
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
This. I always just liked BW but all of a sudden with the release of SC2 I was supposed to start caring about eSports.
Honestly after SC2 came out, I became a rapid BW fan. I have NEVER defended something as if my life depend on it to my peers before that. I still remember the shitstorms up in my face when 4 of my acquaintances were talking down Brood War and using the generic "But StarCraft 2 have better graphic, look how old the Brood War's graphic is!" argument. Oh man did my blood boil.
Later on, I 1 v 3 them on FS and they were playing with a laughable combination of mere 2 hotkeys.
Good man! Last time I 1v2 my sc2 friends they swore off BW forever...guess hellions aren't as annoying as vultures? lololol
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
This. I always just liked BW but all of a sudden with the release of SC2 I was supposed to start caring about eSports.
Honestly after SC2 came out, I became a rapid BW fan. I have NEVER defended something as if my life depend on it to my peers before that. I still remember the shitstorms up in my face when 4 of my acquaintances were talking down Brood War and using the generic "But StarCraft 2 have better graphic, look how old the Brood War's graphic is!" argument. Oh man did my blood boil.
Later on, I 1 v 3 them on FS and they were playing with a laughable combination of mere 2 hotkeys.
Good man! Last time I 1v2 my sc2 friends they swore off BW forever...guess hellions aren't as annoying as vultures? lololol
Mine that kills anything > line attack that only kills workers imo
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
I thought the sarcasm in my post was fairly obvious. "Esports" is stupid.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
I thought the sarcasm in my post was fairly obvious. "Esports" is stupid.
The term i presume .. For gaming is kick ass, and i tend not to limit myself of watching only BW, used to watch Wc3 some and now Sc2 aswell all games i enjoy watching and playing, so how can i call that i am watching multi games and tourny's ? That's right Esports and it's a shit ton of fun.
Watch what you enjoy and if it ends for you with BW then so be it, so long, bye have a good life, but don't mess this topic up with whining and crying that is 100% irrelevent to any one else that is planning on reading about T8.
They dont have a deep enough lineup to get the lineup advantage, see CJ gaining the matchup advantage like every series with their lineup and compare to Team 8's and Stars notably have been bad for it too.
Edit: i think simply it would be a good idea to switch when they would play Sea and Baby, and Killer and Jaedong. And stop Jaehoon getting PvZ's.. even though he went 2-2 in the the last 4 it's not a good idea is it.
For those of you guys , who recommended that Hiya should be in team 8 , Hiya salary was just too high for kespa to pay his salary and because of the team is not even sponsored by any company. It can't sustain , a huge number of experience players who could have help team 8 in their composition and line ups. Kespa has to use it's funds wisely , they have to manage proleague and now with team 8 under their wing . Their budget is going to be tight for some time until team 8 finds a sponsor.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
I thought the sarcasm in my post was fairly obvious. "Esports" is stupid.
I think he was quoting you to agree, not to dispute your point. I could be wrong. For the record, I also agree with you. I like watching a few games done either professionally or done really well (speedruns and the like), but that doesn't mean I give a damn about every competitive game. I really can't understand how the counter-claim can be made with a serious face.
On January 12 2012 17:22 Sawamura wrote: For those of you guys , who recommended that Hiya should be in team 8 , Hiya salary was just too high for kespa to pay his salary and because of the team is not even sponsored by any company. It can't sustain , a huge number of experience players who could have help team 8 in their composition and line ups. Kespa has to use it's funds wisely , they have to manage proleague and now with team 8 under their wing . Their budget is going to be tight for some time until team 8 finds a sponsor.
Eh, they agreed to increase the salaries of most of the players besides Jaedong. I'm sure salary was not the issue. Either they just picked 2 A-teamers with the best winrate last season (iirc Killer was slightly ahead of Hiya) or they just wanted 2 people of each race for A-team.
Not that I think Hiya would have been a better choice. When he was still streaming I saw him lose to Dear so many times on his stream. Of course, he was lacking practice then but still...
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
I don't understand it either. It'll be BW forever. After it's gone that's it for "pro gaming" for me. BW is the only game that I could ever imagine as the type of game to be called an "esport". SC2 is just all about the money, and making kids think if they give them their money and viewership one day they can make a living playing video games.
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
I don't understand it either. It'll be BW forever. After it's gone that's it for "pro gaming" for me. BW is the only game that I could ever imagine as the type of game to be called an "esport". SC2 is just all about the money, and making kids think if they give them their money and viewership one day they can make a living playing video games.
Or maybe to someone else SC2 is just as much fun to watch as BW is? How is it that hard to understand?
On January 11 2012 15:00 Archers_bane wrote: What are the chances of BW being phased out in the next year for Sc2? Am I the only one who is completely naive and thought BW was going strong due to last years results?
Who knows. All i know is that eSports ends with BW for me.
Can't support eSports because your fav game ended? No spirit
I know! You'd almost think "esports" was a practically meaningless term describing an enormous variety of games with hardly anything in common!
BW is what connects me to eSports, if it's gone than so am i. Not sure what you guys are on about with spirit an all that =S Edit: TBH i figured that was the mindset of many BW fans. The whole ESPORTS hype and STOP YOUR HURTING ESPORTS junk emerged with SC2.
I don't understand it either. It'll be BW forever. After it's gone that's it for "pro gaming" for me. BW is the only game that I could ever imagine as the type of game to be called an "esport". SC2 is just all about the money, and making kids think if they give them their money and viewership one day they can make a living playing video games.
Or maybe to someone else SC2 is just as much fun to watch as BW is? How is it that hard to understand?
all of these are just opinions, lets stop discussion it will go nowhere, caring for 1 game and not caring for others is also helping esports end with that.
I'd say the principal problem is lack of practice partners, they should have at least 1 more coach and player for each race, but the players are the priority.
I think players age came into it heavily, HiyA by progamer standards has probably peaked i think it's fair to say. Killer would be the easy choice if it's one of the two. But i really think they should have got Sky, he could not be much for wages.. he performed better than sHy and Dear in Dream League, by all accounts he was going to form into at least a solid mid-tier P in my opinion. There's still time, they need a P and should really get him. I'd hate to see a player who had potential forced to quit without a chance.
Lack of practice partners must be a huge issue. I imagine A-teamers don't practice against each other for Proleague very much. Every player focuses on his own map with dedicate practice partners who specialize on a certain map. Well, I'm speculating but that's what would make most sense to me.
I agree with the others. I think that the lack of practice partner (way too short bench) as well as economic uncertainty plays the major role... It really makes me sad that they perform so poorly...
Don't bring up any of that Star2 crap here please. >< & I hope an individual league is whats needed to kick start the players into playing in the form we all excpected them to play at. Jaedong vs Baby OSL finals sounds like a nice attraction for sponsors no? + Show Spoiler +
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm in classes and the teacher's voice is ringing in my ears ><
I don't know why people expected T8 to take off so quickly. New teams usually start up pretty slowly. I think this was more of a problem with managing expectations combined with a team basically created to dominate the b07 format.
I think as a team they aren't being aggressive enough. I guess this reduces to a coaching problem, but not exactly. They're doing the best they can with the mindset they've picked, like Sea always rax FEing vs P and Jaedong always doing his same thing vs P. The idea is play better by cutting the maximum number of corners and just kind of endure the psychological baggage that comes with all the losses they've been blindsided by until they pick up the pace. Actually, they need to be more aggressive as a team so they're less predictable.
Now if they'd just have sponsor, then they'd have money, which would mean more coaches and players, which would mean better results... But with these results who will sponsor them?
I don t know how important the coaching favtor is for such an expirienced team (Jaedongs been around forever lol) But the situation you described in b) seems like a big factor to me. Beatin the same 5? 10 ? guys in training games everyday makes your play unflexible and less creative. its like messing arround at D//C ranks when you are at A//B skill level. yeah you have fun, you will win a lot but will you improve? definitly not ! and practicing with players you dont know could result in them "selling" your tactics or new styles to other teams.
also seeing a team with so much skill (they werent hyped as the dream team for no reason...) with no sponsor and therefor less motivation makes me really sad because the devil wheel is spinnin no wins - no sponsors and so on
I dont think they practice to much for SC2 atm because why would you ride on two lanes at the same time? switch to it or dont fckin do it! it ll only result in beein mediocre at two games the same time
for some optimism i really liked this idead readin through the thread :
On January 11 2012 01:07 Taekwon wrote: All of team 8 need to be effing dragged to the T1 practice house by gigantic Korean bodygaurds that forcibly silence Park's outburst and protests and bind FBB, Hyuk, Flash, Zero, and FBH to chairs with signs planted at the front entrance that say "IN THE NAME OF BROOD WAR" and practice with every single one of Team 8 until they are all resuscitated in a massive fulmination of BW inspiritment and invigoration.
EPT
? Sucks they would be leaving the pro scene but hey nothing lasts forever 
