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EDIT: READ: (OSL FINAL SPOILERS) DO NOT READ THREAD & SPOILERS UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE SPOILED ABOUT RECENT OSL FINALS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, DO NOT COMPLAIN.
UPDATE:
+ Show Spoiler +CONGRATULATIONS TO OUR FIRST GRADUATE OF THIS POLL! JangBi is OFFICIALLY an OSL winner for all of history! Congrats to the God of Storms!
I was looking through the MSL and realized that there were so many players I forgot had won a starleague, and probably never expected them to. This led me to think...
Straightforward question:
Who do you think, from CURRENT ACTIVE players ONLY, is the best player NEVER to have won a Starleague? This can include anyone from ACE. Let me know if I left your favorite player out, I tried to add as many as I could, but the poll limit... I ended up mostly based off ELO peaks.
Vote according to WHATEVER criteria you want. I personally was thinking: "At any one point in their careers, they really deserved to have won a Starleague." Which explains why people like Jangbi are on here.
READ: You'll notice I purposely left out  one very important person. This is because I cannot bear to let this person become #1 on a poll, which I know will happen. And as an eternal SCBW fan, I can't let that happen, can I?
Poll: Best Active Player Never to have Won a Starleague?Sea (382) 31% Zero (144) 12% Kal (135) 11% Jangbi (135) 11% Midas (98) 8% One of ACE (Iris, Much, FBH, Ruby) (86) 7% Leta (85) 7% Best (58) 5% Light (38) 3% Baby (37) 3% Other (who?) (23) 2% free (10) 1% 1231 total votes Your vote: Best Active Player Never to have Won a Starleague? (Vote): Sea
(Vote): Zero
(Vote): Kal
(Vote): Leta
(Vote): Midas
(Vote): Best
(Vote): Baby
(Vote): Jangbi
(Vote): Light
(Vote): free
(Vote): One of ACE (Iris, Much, FBH, Ruby)
(Vote): Other (who?)
NEW EDIT:
Just to give you more info on the players, because people are raising some good points and others are blissfully unaware of the unfortunate-ness of these poor players =(
 Sea: the tragic hero. Known as the Destroyer of Proleague, and the Ro16 Bonjwa. TL's lovable Yum Bo Sung once was #1 on the Power Rank, holding incredible records and streaks in PL, and virtually ALWAYS made the R-16... sigh. You can guess what's next. Ro8? Sigh =(
Kal: Forgotten fact: did you know Kal was once in a MSL final against Jaedong? POOR GUY =( =( =(
Let's cheer you up with Fun MSL Facts! On his way to beat Kal in the final, JD had also beaten a very young Flash 3-1. Then, JD beat Mind 3-1. Then, Jaedong beat Kal 3-1. Go JD's famous 3-1!
Then, next season, fOrGG beat Kal in the Ro8 3-2. Then, fOrGG beat Flash 3-1 in the Semis. Then, fOrGG ate JD for breakfast in the legendary 3-0 final.
Then, next season, Jangbi beat Kal in the Semis 3-1. Then, Jangbi lost to Bisu 3-1 in the final.
Then, two seasons later, Jaedong beat Kal 2-0 in the Ro16.
Then, next season, Jaedong beat Kal 3-0 in the Semis.
Then, two seasons later, Jaedong beat Kal 2-1 in the Ro16.
... POOR KAL =( =( =( =( he must really hate JD.
ZerO: Fun Fact!! Did you know Zero has lost more vZ's in his career... than his losses vT & vP COMBINED? Count: 81 > 76 (40 + 36).
Did you also know this question was purposefully badly phrased to overemphasize how the OP is sad Zero loses vZ's? And that he has played 160 vZ's and 175 vP+vT? So the above stat was actually completely misleading you?
But the OP is very sad for Zero's vZ at 49.69% (T_T) and why the HELL did he have to play so many vZ's... and still be bad at it?!?!
Midas: Midas... what needs to be said about this guy? Apparently, too much. To be honest, I kinda hoped that he would be winning this poll. For those of you asking why, some of his greatness can be seen here.
Light: There are sooooo many things we could say about Light:
____________________, _________________________________. _____________________
_____________________. ________________________, _____________________________
_______________________, ______________________________________. _____________
and those are some of the reasons why Light is so amazing.
JangBi: Oh, Jangbi. One of the most puzzling characters in all of SC, in my opinion. He was hailed as possibly the next Protoss B-(CENSORED by Bisu fanboys) by many, and then he hit something. No, it wasn't a slump. It was more like five million tons of WTF. Check out this CRAZY stat:
From August 1 2010 to May 1 2011, Jangbi compiled an incomprehensible 25.64% record.
O_O HOLY. CRAP.
firebathero: Fantastic. Ridiculous. Legendary.
Nothing more needs to be said.
--------
If you want everyone to know some more interesting stats, let me know! Post them up and I'll put them into the OP!+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +
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NOTES & CBNC:
FAQ:
Why so few Zergs?
Firstly, some well-performing Zergs (i.e. Calm & Hydra) have already won MSLs, surprisingly. (EDIT: I'm sorry! I earlier accidentally put Great from Samsung Khan on the 'won MSL' list, but I completely forgot he got Silver. But I honestly don't think many people wanted him on poll anyway...)
But what about the immortal Neo.G_BONJWA?
Personally, I thought he's an amazing kid and has a ton of potential, but with an ELO peak lower than LuCifer's and often overshadowed in starleague accomplishments compared to his big bro Zero, I left him off the list. Arguably better than several on the list, though.
What about Stats / Hiya / Roro / Killer / Snow / Really?
Get back to me when they get far in a Starleague. All have great potential but I think they're unproven yet, as compared to some of the awesome performers on the list.
Why the heck are free/BeSt/Kal/Jangbi up there?
Former glory. Six Dragons, anyone?
Any more questions? Let me know!
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To be honest, all of these guys have such roller coaster gameplay...
A while ago I used to think it would be Kal but obviously right now...
I'll stick to my guns and hope for the best
And do you mean "CBNC"?
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On May 15 2011 04:36 Taekwon wrote:
To be honest, all of these guys have such roller coaster gameplay...
A while ago I used to think it would be Kal but obviously right now...
I'll stick to my guns and hope for the best
And do you mean "CBNC"?
LOL whoops thanks!
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5003 Posts
Yellow
oh, purposely left him out. I guess whoever gets voted 1st here will be the 2nd best, so they'll be the next kong line
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On May 15 2011 04:38 Milkis wrote:
Yellow
^Plz refer to the big bolded "READ" ^_^
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Zero is too inconsistent...
Jangbi was a beast, now is way beyond his prime... and got title blocked by luxury, similar with Best and July 
Sea and free are consistent but not amazing.
Kal and Light have their moments but they dont seem to last too long.
Well I went with Leta... sure he's never been anywhere near a contender of a title, but well I was more posting in a wishful thinking.
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Jangbi, Kong line, silver miner, has three silver medals, ELO peak over 2300. If Yellow deserves a gold, then so does Jangbi.
Midas, best Terran of his time, a true SKT terran, overshadowed and eliminated from the leagues by Savior. Without a doubt, Midas at his peak was a gold medal contender.
Leta, debuted as PL bonjwa, went almost 80% win rate in ace matches across 20 ace matches. He looked as hot as Effort did. Unfortunately, he never achieved anything in SL. Luxury cockblocked both Leta and Jangbi during his MSL run.
Out of the ones on the poll, those three were definitely gold contenders during their peaks. BeSt's peak was a bit too short. Sea was consistent, but never looked like a gold medal contestant. All the other ones including even Kal were never the best of their respective eras.
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Jangbi may have been the best player in the world for some time, this can't be said about any other from the list.
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Besides Yellow... don't know.
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tough to pick but ACE aka Iris should get some love, hasn't got a single vote yet ^^
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Denmark2980 Posts
lol @ sympathy for THE #2. :D
I voted for Best. He has had his ups and downs of course, but he has been among the very best for a long time now.
Baby probably has the best chances for a win in the future though. There's still some way to go for him.
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That's a really good poll.
My vote goes to Midas tho. He was so good in proleagues but in starleagues he often got eliminated by savior. Midas would probably have 1 or 2 titles if he would have been able to pass through savior (They played close and exciting series).
But there are a lot of good choices there.
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Voted for Kal. Last year he was so good but kept bumping into Flash and Jaedong in every tournament 
BeSt and Midas was also sick good when they were in their prime.
And Sea with 60% winrate yet no title
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Sea deserves a title. Unfortunately, he gets knocked out too early in individual leagues. :/
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LIGHT without a doubt. Also the most underestimated player. Leta/Kal/Midas/Jangbi aren't even close.
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On May 15 2011 04:38 Milkis wrote:
Yellow
oh, purposely left him out. I guess whoever gets voted 1st here will be the 2nd best, so they'll be the next kong line
Agreed. Voted for Sea, great player all around and some of the best TvZ there is but he just doesn't seem to have any success in the individual leagues. Jangbi came in a close 2nd though. Ahhh Much seeing you listed as just another Ace player . CJ has never been the same since you left man!
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Best player to have never won a starleague?
BeSt
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Baby cuz he doesn't show his potential in starleague
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Sea and Light
Light TvP really weak,thats why he never win OSL
Sea all match ups 57% or more...he already deserving winning a StarLeague.
So my vote for Sea!
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Voted Sea; super solid in all match-ups, sometimes super impressive displays of skill and yet he always fails in starleagues.
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If you count people that could still win a starleague in the future, Sea. If not, Midas. Jangbi is pretty close too. And Iris maybe. But the first too never even went far in a starleague, so it's even more disappointing. Well Midas had one semifinal, and Sea none. ON the other hand, Iris and Jangbi had their chances.
I don't know who to vote for. Pretty sad Casy and Sync won starleague when you see that line up :p
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Midas. Long career, strong in all matchups, maintained a 60% winrate until mid-2010.
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Midas or Jangbi. They're the top of these in ELO peak too, though Yellow is in between them. And Best is just 1 point away from Midas.
And your faq lies about Great.
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Iris was really good at one point, especially during the Savior era.
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
I'd have to say Iris. Guy was a BEASTTTTTTTTTTTT. And is still destroying. Getting so close so many times only to fall to a Zerg that was on his team. Savior, Kwanro, Effort(? Or did he beat him in GOM? Not sure if I remember).
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Canada5155 Posts
I can't honestly vote for any of these guys because they're all so streaky. I like them, but they're all equally not-starleague-champ-material to me.
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On May 15 2011 05:11 Jeremyy wrote:
Yellow.
ROFL good point
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MBSea deserves it more than anyone. He basically a slightly weaker KTFlash.
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my heart goes with kal, but mind goes with zero. zero goes as far as he can in every league until he runs into a zerg with decent ZvZ :\. he can take down any player of any other race, but not zerg
one day though I think zero will get a lucky casy-style bracket where he can just avoid ZvZ the whole time and he will win that league though.
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United States10059 Posts
i think jangbi. you'll never see another person to get 100000 storms off against nada ever again.
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Iris man, the guys is a monster.
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Pretty hard choice. I ended up voting Kal but Iris and Jangbi are also high up there for me. Jangbi might be pretty awful now but he was absolutely terrifying for a while and has a handful of second place finishes. Iris has just been really good for so long and is still beastly, even on Ace. But Kal when he's on the ball seems to be a favourite vs anyone thats not Jaedong or Flash but meets them so often. >_>
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The Best player to have never won a StarLeague?
Well, that's simple...
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Jangbi. Huge peak ELO, might have the best argument out of any of these guys to have once been ranked #1, multiple silvers, and was one of three key players during Khan's big PL run and eventual championship.
I think Iris is an underrated selection though. Came so close multiple times, and not just when he made the finals. There was also that crazy semi-final series he lost to Savior that caused Savior to break his CJ face.
I like Sea but I think he might be overrated as a choice just because he's been a consistently good player for such a long time. I can't remember a time when he seemed a legit threat to win a title, other than maybe years ago when people still thought he just hadn't quite reached his potential and would break out sooner or later.
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First of all, Yellow is indisputably the all time best player to have never won a Starleague. He was in his day what Jaedong is these days.
I think that if we're going to talk about this without talking about Yellow, we need to define a metric.
If we look at players who are capable of throwing down with top players right now (on a somewhat consistent basis) who have had long and healthy careers, Sea is the top of your list. He's basically been consistently a top 5 Terran (often times top 3) for 5-6 years. The issue I would bring up with Sea is that he's consistently NOT been a top 2 Terran, which is part of why he's consistently failed to go the distance.
However if we go 50% consistency + 50% peak form (lifetime), I might give the nod to Midas over Sea. Also Iris would rival Midas here. But I don't think most players out there right now know just how scary Midas was at one point.
If we look at peak form in the post Ma Jae Yoon era (i.e. modern Starcraft), then the award has to go to Jangbi. At his peak he had broken into the ranks of TBLS. However his peak was pretty short lived.
If we look at level of play over just the past year/two years, it's somewhat of a toss up between Zero (semifinals appearance, consistently among the top 3 in ZvT and ZvP, at times showing strong ZvZ, although at other times showing fail ZvZ), Light (WL MVP in 2010, semifinals appearance pushing JD to the absolute limit in BigFile MSL, #2 TvZer of the past year+, at times looking every bit as strong as Flash, but weak in TvP), Free (2 semifinals, arguably the top Protoss of 2010) or Kal (semifinals +Korean representative at WCG, makes a strong case in contention for #1 Protoss of 2010).
Regarding others on your list:
-Best... as I said very recently in the PR discussion, I was totally raving about Best's talent when he came out but he never quite lived up to the hype. In retrospect I find his game play a bit one-dimensional.
-Baby still has to prove he belongs with the others on this list.
-Leta was for a time the #3 Terran and one of the greatest PL aces ever, but his dominance was short lived and never carried over to individual leagues. A very smart player but he needed to work on his macro a little.
-FBH could be worth a mention by one of the metrics I out-lined. Ruby and Much definitely do not make this list as others on it have simply proven themselves more.
Regarding your FAQ:
-Why so few Zerg? Because most of the obvious choices for #2 - #3 Zerg over ANY time period in the past 4-5 years have risen up to challenge at some point (Effort, GGplay, Calm, Luxury).
-Hwasin arguably deserves a spot.
-In general, I'd hesitate to add anyone who hasn't AT LEAST made a semifinal.
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Sea is my favorite player. Sure, I'm a little biased. But seriously he's the epitome of consistent - he's the reason why MBC doesn't completely fall flat on their face every time in proleague. He just gets nervous
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i think its a close call between kal and zero but clearly we have seen Zero's games are mostly at the legend epic level o.O
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Zero, If ZvZ didn't fuck him over every season he'd have at least 1 SL, maybe 2.
(But really Yellow how could u not list him!)
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You forgot Pusan  . He's back on the roster.
My vote goes to Free and Light. Personal bias, but I really hope they have a deep SL run one day.
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sea's going to win the next OSL
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In the last few years, Jangbi and Kal were the two closest players who didn't make it. Hwasin, FBH, free, Sea, Best have all been close.
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Sea in no way deserves a title. I think to be worthy of this list you at least need to have some ro4 finishes, if not silvers. Sea is just always 'a good player but no where near the best.'
Of the list, I don't think any of them deserve a title. Sorry, but even if you say 'no Yellow' Yellow is basically the only one who is worthy, since Fantasy and Stork got their golds eventually. I could say Zero or even FBH because I am a big fan of them both, but I know deep down they don't compare to the best players of their time.
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I want to vote free because of fanboyism, but I don't want to skew the poll
I would say ZerO and then Sea.
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I would have to say Sea or Yellow. Sea is undeniably remarkable in proleague but just can't seem to win a starleague. Yellow... nuff said.
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Yum Bo Sung for life. He deserves a win.
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Probably Jangbi or Sea. Jangbi being StorK's partner in crime and Stork reaching so many finals I find it quite odd that Jangbi never reached that far
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Katowice25012 Posts
I thought Sea was an obvious choice at first, he constantly has incredible games and never puts together an impressive starleague run. After reading the thread though Jangbi might be a stronger candidate, hes had periods of being incredible and he puts together good starleague runs only to get stopped short.
also I'm pretty sure Plexa is still convinced Pusan will win osl one day.
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Well there's definitely a distinction that needs to be made here because i think people are voting on different criteria: Is it the player who is the best right now to never have won a Starleague? Or active player with the best career (even if they aren't so good atm) to never have won a Starleague?
If you're voting on the first question the answer is probably Leta, with Kal, Zero, Sea, and BaBy being runner ups. However i think the second one is the most interesting to discuss and requires a lot more thought, because imo "best player" most closely means player with the best career.
For that criteria i'd say BeSt, followed by Sea, Kal, Jangbi, and Midas. NC YellOw should definitely be on the poll and deserves recognition here. FBH gets a mention in this category.
Notice Sea is the only player mentioned in both lists, he's a model of consistency and a great player with a great career too. That said, BeSt is the right choice for this poll because of his great career with great Proleague success AND Starleague success (despite not winning one), Sea is second.
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But.. but.. he'd be 1st place of the at-best 2nd places
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Sea.Really, even if he is slumping now : (
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On May 15 2011 05:47 Chef wrote:
Sea in no way deserves a title. I think to be worthy of this list you at least need to have some ro4 finishes, if not silvers. Sea is just always 'a good player but no where near the best.'
The thing about Sea is that he regularly pulls off Starleague-winner-level play (not as much recently), but he chokes when he gets to the actual Ro16 or Ro8 of a Starleague. If he could play as consistently in Starleagues as he does in PL, he would probably have won by now.
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As much as I wanted to vote for ZerO, my favorite player, I had to vote for Sea, 2nd favorite . As much as I enjoy ZerO's play, his ZvZ is a hinderance he can't seem to get rid of . Sea on the other hand is phenomenal in all of his matchups, Sea just runs into someone ridiculous all the time. And group D was no help this season. He will win one day, and it will be great.
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Jangbi. I think he's the only person on that list I've been impressed by in a best of 3 match. I don't think Baby or Sea have ever done well in a Best of Format.
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I voted Sea but after thinking about it for a while, Midas out of that poll was the best player to not win a starleague. He was the second best player for quite a while, and when he was really really good, unfortunately Savior was just a bit better and stopped Midas a few times, Iris beat him a few times too. After that, he started getting kicked out of the starleagues by the new tide of players coming in.
On the other hand, Sea was extremely talented, did super well in proleagues, would completely outclass most of the players he faced, but would never live up to his potential in ro16's and ro8's. You could also make a case for Iris but, at least to me, he was never really expected to win a starleague the same way Midas and Sea was (especially Sea). You could make a case for Jangbi too, everyone in Samsung always said that he was a lot better in the practice room than in the games.
Yellow all time, easily though @_@
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On May 15 2011 04:31 Keone wrote: Vote according to WHATEVER criteria you want. I personally was thinking: "At any one point in their careers, they really deserved to have won a Starleague." Which explains why people like Jangbi are on here.
A really good point. I actually voted Jangbi, because around the time in early 2009 when he made 3 different finals in a row he looked downright beastly. If we were polling overall consistency, Sea would probably be the obvious choice, but yet, there was not one starleague run of his where I felt that "this could be the one".
And of course, Kal my man is tearing up this poll with Sea. Here's to hoping he gets back in form soon!
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Hmm.. Cant really decide between Sea and Zero.. Baby a little too, but he is so young, he will have his chances .. Somehow i feel like Sea's chance will never come .. Hope Zero win this MSL though, i actually like the guy, and Flash n Jaedong already won their share of titles :p
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I dont know who to vote.
None of these players really stood out for me, some players are good, but not really that consistent...
Voted for Jangbi in the end...
Kinda surprised that Sea is leading the poll by quite a bit.
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Midas, maybe not many people remember how good Midas was 2005-2007 leading T1 with oov and rivaling bonjwa Savior.
other guys like Iris and Best deserve mention though Best's pvz has always been bad
the 6 dragons that are not Bisu/Stork don't really convince me because outside that time period they haven't been so good (good P maps)
Sea well... no doubt he is very solid but when he has like no individual league results it's hard to say he deserves to win one imo.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Yellow, of the current active players, I'd say Light, while Sea is a solid Terran in the team leagues he does not go anywhere in the individual leagues.
Light is quite underrated actually, I guess that is part of the reason that he is the invisible Terran.
His TvZ is scary, moreover his record.
Too bad the guy ain't as good in TvP
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Leta i guess he made impressive play almost everytime i see him
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Out of all of these Zero is the one I enjoy watching the most. He's incredibly talented and his gameplay is unique and diverse, but he also has severe consistency issues and ZvZ issues which he's only recently started to fix.
You could really make a case for a lot of these players. Jangbi was amazing when he was playing at his peak (easy to forget now, but he once made 3 finals in a row or something like that), Kal was very strong until halfway through last year, and Midas was actually incredible during his peak. A lot of people forget how good Midas was; he was the second best player at one point, but always overshadowed by Savior backw hen Savior was unstoppable.
Sea and Leta are also very talented and usually make deep runs, but both have issues that have prevented them from winning. Leta has been inconsistent and always had a weakness in TvP, and Sea, although he's been one of the top Terrans for a long time and one of the most well rounded players, has always severely underpreformed in important games.
Then you have people like Light and Best, who would have easily won a title (or more) by now if they didn't have to play their race's weak matchup (TvP and PvZ). Light's TvZ is and Best's PvT are unstoppable, but their TvP and PvZ matchups respectively are just awful. Its funny how Light is 3-0 vs Jaedong this season yet has a loosing record vs Perfectman lol.
Anyway yea, my vote would go for Midas, followed by Kal and Sea .
On May 15 2011 06:42 Cambium wrote:
Voted Best
Lol seriously if Best never had to play PvZ he would have won like 3 titles by now.
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On May 15 2011 06:24 ColdLava wrote:
I voted Sea but after thinking about it for a while, Midas out of that poll was the best player to not win a starleague. He was the second best player for quite a while, and when he was really really good, unfortunately Savior was just a bit better and stopped Midas a few times, Iris beat him a few times too. After that, he started getting kicked out of the starleagues by the new tide of players coming in.
On the other hand, Sea was extremely talented, did super well in proleagues, would completely outclass most of the players he faced, but would never live up to his potential in ro16's and ro8's. You could also make a case for Iris but, at least to me, he was never really expected to win a starleague the same way Midas and Sea was (especially Sea). You could make a case for Jangbi too, everyone in Samsung always said that he was a lot better in the practice room than in the games.
Yellow all time, easily though @_@
yep. Agreed here
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I'm not sure how to answer. By saying active players, it seems like your talking about how good they are now. But Midas isn't anywhere close to as good as most of those players are now, so I'm not sure why he is on the list. If we talk about there primes, and the "active" thing was just a way to not include yellow, themarine or H.O.T., the Midas would have my vote. Otherwise, I think Leta just edges out Sea.
After Fantasy won his, there wasn't another player for me who makes me think "He's so good! it's only a matter of time till he wins one." Although there are some young players who are showing sings that they will probably get there one day.
so I guess it looks something like this:
If we include legacy
1. Midas
2. Jangbi
3. Best (Would be #1 by far if not for zerg
if we don't
1. leta
2. sea
3. kal If I can ignore the last 2 months
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On May 15 2011 06:44 TheSubtleArt wrote:Lol seriously if Best never had to play PvZ he would have won like 3 titles by now.
Yeah, and how many titles would zergs have won if they didnt have to play ZvT? Thats the hard thing about starcraft, you gotta play the harder matchups too. Maybe a bit easier for the terrans but still, being a one trick pony doesnt cut it, especially if its the traditionally easier matchup.
On May 15 2011 04:39 Keone wrote:^Plz refer to the big bolded "READ" ^_^
Hes still on the roster isnt he? And had a solid 50% winrate in ace a few months ago so he certainly is still an A-level player
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Netherlands45349 Posts
There is one guy however, who most likely won't win a Starleague but ow boy would it be epic if he did
firebathero(perhaps when he is back on Khan)
The ceremonies we would get people, the ceremonies if he won a SL.
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On May 15 2011 06:06 heyoka wrote:
I thought Sea was an obvious choice at first, he constantly has incredible games and never puts together an impressive starleague run. After reading the thread though Jangbi might be a stronger candidate, hes had periods of being incredible and he puts together good starleague runs only to get stopped short.
also I'm pretty sure Plexa is still convinced Pusan will win osl one day.
The thing is, there's never been a time in Sea's career where one couldn't name at least five players way better than him. I don't think a player like that has a chance to win a title, much less deserves to. Doing well in Proleague means you can beat mediocre pros, but winning a title is about beating the best players in the world. I think that the only reason Sea is on this poll is because he's been involved with foreigner events and he's a nice guy who did B.Net attack with us. The fact remains tho, when he got put into the group of death he was quivering in his boots and figured he had no chance... Well, to win a title, you have to beat those players eventually, right? Unless they all get sniped by crappy one build wonder players and you clean up... But then that's not really earning your win.
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On May 15 2011 06:53 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 06:44 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 15 2011 06:42 Cambium wrote:
Voted Best Lol seriously if Best never had to play PvZ he would have won like 3 titles by now. Yeah, and how many titles would zergs have won if they didnt have to play ZvT? Thats the hard thing about starcraft, you gotta play the harder matchups too. Maybe a bit easier for the terrans but still, being a one trick pony doesnt cut it, especially if its the traditionally easier matchup. Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 04:39 Keone wrote:On May 15 2011 04:38 Milkis wrote:
Yellow ^Plz refer to the big bolded "READ" ^_^ Hes still on the roster isnt he? And had a solid 50% winrate in ace a few months ago so he certainly is still an A-level player
Agreed, you really have to be good in all 3 matchups to make a deep run. The only exception I can think of is Casy, who managed to win a starleague by being amazing in TvZ, unremarkable in TvT, and hilariously bad in TvP (before he joined ace he was over 60% in TvZ and ~33% in TvP lol Oo).
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Disregarding 'consistency' issues (which is just another way of saying mostly above average games are better than really good and really bad games), I would probably vote for BeSt/ZerO over Sea or Leta....Sea and Leta are solid players but have never really impressed me with their play, whereas at least rarely BeSt has the ability to pull out a rape even in PvZ. As for PvT, BeSt is ridiculous because his play is so straightforward, yet he just manages to...win when he needs to. Just 2gate/1gate obs to double expand to arbs/zeal/goon break. Neither Sea or Leta has that sort of...intimidating ability, although they are definitely good players. And ZerO is ZerO.
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Can't honestly vote for any of these
The important person left out imo, though for a period of time I probably would have voted for Best, but since he was only that good for such a short period of time, it is understandable and was not all that unlikely that he won no starleague.
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On May 15 2011 07:01 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 06:06 heyoka wrote:
I thought Sea was an obvious choice at first, he constantly has incredible games and never puts together an impressive starleague run. After reading the thread though Jangbi might be a stronger candidate, hes had periods of being incredible and he puts together good starleague runs only to get stopped short.
also I'm pretty sure Plexa is still convinced Pusan will win osl one day. The thing is, there's never been a time in Sea's career where one couldn't name at least five players way better than him. I don't think a player like that has a chance to win a title, much less deserves to. Doing well in Proleague means you can beat mediocre pros, but winning a title is about beating the best players in the world. I think that the only reason Sea is on this poll is because he's been involved with foreigner events and he's a nice guy who did B.Net attack with us. The fact remains tho, when he got put into the group of death he was quivering in his boots and figured he had no chance... Well, to win a title, you have to beat those players eventually, right? Unless they all get sniped by crappy one build wonder players and you clean up... But then that's not really earning your win.
absolutely, jangbi IS the highest peak elo guy to not have fon a title so him probablty
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Sea is so good but what's going on man, he's gotta at least make it to a final. I don't care if he even wins just man this dude deserves it, plus he's a cute person as well.
Yeah ok I just sounded biased but I'm sure more people will agree with me.
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I am so happy at the turnout of MBC fans to support our eternal underdog.
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This is a really tough question because all the players you listed are either just above average or very mediocre (pro league aside).
I think it's a coinflip between Iris (because he came so close to beating Savior), BeSt, Midas and ZerO.
Don't get me wrong I'm a huge Sea, MBC fan. But, I wouldn't consider him. It's taken him ages just to make it to the round of 8 alone. -_-
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i voted light!
too bad he has a weak TvP
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Baa?21242 Posts
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It was fantasy but the previous Starleague changed it. As of right now, I would probably say Kal.
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Sea is <3, and will get most votes, but Kal gets mine.
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If you were to ask me 4-5 years ago I would say YellOw.
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10387 Posts
IMO if Baby was picked up by SKT, he would've won at least one title by now with Oov's monstrous coaching.. Baby would be today's Fantasy with far better mechanics, and probably far less WTF-fails
Jangbi would be my second pick though, he was a total beast when he was on.. however ever since that loss to Luxury he's never been able to recapture his spirit :l
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Hm...depends on how you define "best". Zero at his best is better than everyone on this list, but Zero at his worst can lose to B-teamers.
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Sea by far. Kal and Light close 2nds
They are all veterans of BW, you'd think by now they'd at least get a final's appearance they deserve, but no :<
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Kal should have won vs forgg with that genious scout build. just amazing game, shame he lost. He is such a great player
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On May 15 2011 08:00 ThePhan2m wrote:
Kal should have won vs forgg with that genious scout build. just amazing game, shame he lost. He is such a great player
That was a Ro8, now way kal could've beaten flash, much less Jaedong in Bo5s.
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I know Sea is really popular on TL but putting him first on this poll really seems weird to me. All of the players lack real star quality to take the title imo. I don't think any of them have ever been in the favorite to ever win a Starleague they have been playing in, except for Iris & JangBi?
edit: voted ace / iris btw
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On May 15 2011 08:02 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 08:00 ThePhan2m wrote:
Kal should have won vs forgg with that genious scout build. just amazing game, shame he lost. He is such a great player That was a Ro8, now way kal could've beaten flash, much less Jaedong in Bo5s.
hey that MSL he came closest to beating forgg out of everyone
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Voted for Zero. Too bad his zvz is subpar but his zvp and zvt are 2nd best in the buisness.
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I think Mortality's post summed it up pretty well. Although I think Iris is probably #2 over Midas. Iris around his peak was realllly good, and all that stopped him was only the most amazingly comeback by GGplay which consisted of Silver's Monty Hall strategy, and only some of the most ridiculously clutch defense I've ever seen.
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Toss up between Leta and Sea IMO. Lets hope Leta wins something soon...
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On May 15 2011 04:42 dukethegold wrote:
Jangbi, Kong line, silver miner, has three silver medals, ELO peak over 2300. If Yellow deserves a gold, then so does Jangbi.
Midas, best Terran of his time, a true SKT terran, overshadowed and eliminated from the leagues by Savior. Without a doubt, Midas at his peak was a gold medal contender.
Leta, debuted as PL bonjwa, went almost 80% win rate in ace matches across 20 ace matches. He looked as hot as Effort did. Unfortunately, he never achieved anything in SL. Luxury cockblocked both Leta and Jangbi during his MSL run.
Out of the ones on the poll, those three were definitely gold contenders during their peaks. BeSt's peak was a bit too short. Sea was consistent, but never looked like a gold medal contestant. All the other ones including even Kal were never the best of their respective eras.
My thoughts exactly. Voted Midas though.
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Tough one. Sea's been at it for so long you'd think he'd have at least one by now. Kal had such monster creativity a couple years ago though, it seemed like he of all players would have earned a title by now instead of Clam, fOrGG, and others. Luck of the draw and uneven play really set him back. While Sea is great, Kal seemed like the kind of player that could come up with the goods for a best-of series and bring home the gold.
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Yum Bo Sung!
Such a solid winrate plus many years of experience.... but not a single title D:
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Kal, the guy always run into someone that's better than him
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Definitely Sea, just looking at his record make you think why this guy haven't won a single StarLeague.
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Gotta be Kal. The dude will knock your favorite player out but will inevitably donk and lose in the semis. He's not in great form now but a few months ago he was pretty scary.
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now i would probably say baby or sea, but back then it would be kal hands down
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On May 15 2011 08:09 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 08:02 Release wrote:On May 15 2011 08:00 ThePhan2m wrote:
Kal should have won vs forgg with that genious scout build. just amazing game, shame he lost. He is such a great player That was a Ro8, now way kal could've beaten flash, much less Jaedong in Bo5s. hey that MSL he came closest to beating forgg out of everyone
last OSL, Calm came closest to beating Fantasy, but no doubt in my mind that Stork deserved it more than Calm.
I always fealt Baby is too reliant on his multitasking and dropship play. Any zerg who has "enough" multitasking, like Jaedong, will beat him. (forget the korean air osl)
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It used to be Fantasy by a huge margin. I would say right now Kal is the strongest contender, even though he's slumping like crazy. If we look back in history, it's Jangbi for sure. This guy had a crazy 80% PvT winrate at one point. He's got the 4th best ELO vT peak, only Flash, Jaedong and Yellow being better. His PvP was also the 2nd best after Bisu during the Dragon era.
The next non-winner who will win though? Stats, Snow, Bogus, Reality and Soulkey are good candidates. I would probably put my bet on Snow.
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When they are at their best, I would say Baby or Light easy.
For overall performance, including consistancy, I might go with Zero (thinking more currently) or Kal (thinking more how has he done overall, excluding current performance... man used to be a beast lol).
My heart said Baby though, so I voted that. :D
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#1 or #2 of their race at some point:
+ Show Spoiler +Sea
Zero (although he's clearly capable of it in vT/vP..)
Kal
Midas
Leta (maybe)
Jangbi
Iris
Light
Best
Baby
Free
Semifinals + Finals Losses:
+ Show Spoiler +Sea: 0
Zero: 2 semifinals
Kal: 2 semifinals (I think?), 1 finals
Midas: 1 semifinals?
Leta: 0
Jangbi: 2 finals (3 w/ GOM)
Iris: 2 semis, 1 final
Light: 1 semi
Best: 1 final
Baby: 0
Free: 3 semis
note i started following in late 08 so these might be wrong
so by this arbitrary measure it should be free/jangbi/kal
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god that is a hard question, i think leta and kal is defenitly my choices, but which deserves the most i can't say, i think kal is more consistent and could probably be the one to pull it off, but i always love watching leta play, his one of my favorites. but if i could have my dream finals, it would without a doubt be Firebathero vs Leta
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It should be YellOw, but since we cannot vote for him....
I'm going for Sea or Light. Zero really deserves a title as well. Free really deserves one as well since he was insanely good during the time he reached the semi finals 3 times.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Obviously Sea. Sick PL win rate, but just can't find it in the starleagues.
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I would have to say Sea. Sea has been one of the better (and at a time, best) players around for like 6 years now. His staying power in the scene is incredible.
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I have a soft spot for Leta.....hope he gets one someday
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I am a big BeSt fan, but tbh its definitely Sea/Kal. Either could arguable be the best, but I'd have to side with Sea. Sea is a very solid player, and isn't wish washy like many of the others.
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Definitely Kal, his past 2 years have seen a lot of deep appearances in leagues, just usually blocked by JD and Flash.
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United States11390 Posts
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Canada2480 Posts
On May 15 2011 09:46 Harem wrote:
Backho
wtf, it's defenitely killer...
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Zero. This guy can pull off really brilliant shit.
-Played awesomely vs Flash the last time they met
-Stomped Stork 3-0 out of MSL and is on a 5 game winstreak vs him - as far as I can tell Stork is Zero's bitch
-Bisu's most recent PvZ loss was to this guy, and it was very well executed
If only he can fix his ZvZ...oh and be more consistent but this guy can destroy anyone on a good day.
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Australia7069 Posts
great never won a starleague ... (fix the faq plz)
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1019 Posts
zero always falls after reaching Round of 8 or semifinals, I bet he has the most number of 4th place finishes ever
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Hwasin. Was awesome back in the day, but never managed to get much further than RO16 I think, despite always qualifiying.
The 4/6 dragons that aren't Bisu/Stork; all of them have been very close but have usually been denied some way or the other. (worst being BeSt getting kicked out of OSL 08 from horrible spawn on Fantasy II vs Stork.)
Sea have been very good for a long time, but I don't think anyone has considered him a contender for years since he automatically chokes in anything that's not PL. Iris is probably the terran that's been most deserving not to have won a SL. Lots of different zergs have been winning SL's, don't know anyone that should have won one except YellOw. Maybe the other YellOw.
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51342 Posts
personally i don't think sea is the player. he simply never had the 'it' factor to make it to the finals. someone like light however, i think, has the it factor.
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When I saw the thread title, Yellow immediately came into mind.
If it's a current player...hmmm, even if I'm a T1 fanboy, I wouldn't say that BeSt deserves to win a StarLeague since his PvZ is still terrible.
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I'd have to go w/ Midas. He was a beast but always lost to savior...poor midas! T_T
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I'd say at least one of the dragons (Kal, Jangi or Free). Talking about players that might not deserve it..
TOSSGIRL!!
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On May 15 2011 10:18 GTR wrote:
personally i don't think sea is the player. he simply never had the 'it' factor to make it to the finals. someone like light however, i think, has the it factor.
Yes, Light's problem is not the "it" factor but rather the "vP" factor.
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On May 15 2011 10:54 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 10:18 GTR wrote:
personally i don't think sea is the player. he simply never had the 'it' factor to make it to the finals. someone like light however, i think, has the it factor. Yes, Light's problem is not the "it" factor but rather the "vP" factor.
In all fairness, looks like his switch to Stars is really improving that aspect.
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I don't know about that.... Light has the tendency to screw up royally when it counts.Every series against Jaedong he seems to have one game where he does something monumentally stupid, and Jaedong punishes him for it. Light has his moments, but they're balanced out by his fails.
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Wtf...Great won a starleague? o.o
That's a surprise...
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On May 15 2011 11:01 PH wrote:
Wtf...Great won a starleague? o.o
That's a surprise...
He hasn't. =/
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Doesn't matter if you think you're cool for not putting Yellow, but he's #1. Not by a long shot, it's a close race, but just because the OP ignores him doesn't count him out.
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On May 15 2011 10:18 GTR wrote:
personally i don't think sea is the player. he simply never had the 'it' factor to make it to the finals. someone like light however, i think, has the it factor.
I agree with this. As much as I'd love for Sea to make it, he's never had that special champion spark.
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Of the choices on there, Zero, easily.
With so many scrub Zs having already won, I find it hardly believable that Zero hasn't eeked one out yet.
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Some people are picking Light but I really would say that Light has never deserved to win a starleague. Yes, he does have amazing TvZ and very good TvT skills, but he never had (and still doesn't have) the TvP skill to deserve winning a starleague.
I would probably say Iris. The guy took Savior (when he was at the top of his game) to a 5th set in a 2007 OSL and also has a starleague silver. Dude's a beast.
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Yellow, for obvious reasons.
Best probably comes second, he was a beast in '08, going 65-28 (69.89% win) including a silver at the 2008 EVER OSL. He basically carried SK Telecom in PL during that time.
Jangbi was pretty strong '08-'09, going 124-78 (61.39% win) with 2 MSL silvers and a GomTV silver too.
Midas was at one point supposed to continue the Boxer-Oov lineage, but that never panned out
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You know, I think I agree that Iris came close, too.
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On May 15 2011 10:09 sushiman wrote:Hwasin. Was awesome back in the day, but never managed to get much further than RO16 I think, despite always qualifiying. The 4/6 dragons that aren't Bisu/Stork; all of them have been very close but have usually been denied some way or the other. (worst being BeSt getting kicked out of OSL 08 from horrible spawn on Fantasy II vs Stork.) Sea have been very good for a long time, but I don't think anyone has considered him a contender for years since he automatically chokes in anything that's not PL. Iris is probably the terran that's been most deserving not to have won a SL. Lots of different zergs have been winning SL's, don't know anyone that should have won one except YellOw. Maybe the other YellOw.
Yeah um/. Hwasin threw matches. So you never know if he actually could've won.
No match fixer should ever be champion.
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This is easily Iris, come on guys.
He's played well enough for long enough, and gone far enough in the actual leagues (unlike poor Sea) that he definitely should have one. If you doubt that, watch 3 of probably the top five bo5s ever he was involved in:
Shinhan3 OSL Semis - vs Savior
Daum OSL Finals - vs GGPlay
Avalon MSL Quarters - vs Bisu
A lot of people also forget he got to the finals of GOM3 as well, but lost to Flash.
Honorable mentions definitely go to Midas, Zero and mayyybe Hwasin. I thought Hwasin was at the time, but things have changed a lot since, obviously.
Free and Sea should both be on here, but I consider being able to handle the pressure of league play as a prerequisite for being 'best', so I'd rank them a bit lower.
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It's gotta be Sea, also I am wishing that anyone who wins a starleague (who deserves it and hasn't got one yet) surges after their victory. I mean how cool would it be if Sea won a starleague then went on a 85-90% tear through most of proleague??
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Well obviously YellOw is the clear #1 player to have never won a starleague. After him, I'd say Jangbi since he was more dominant than any one else who hasn't won a starleague. Right now, Jangbi is reallllllllllly bad, and he hasn't been good since 2009, but for a short stretch in early 2009/late 2008, it seemed like he was the best player in the world. Of course, he ended up losing to Bisu in the finals, but he was really quite good during that period of time.
Besides Jangbi, I'd say that Midas was REALLY good back in 2006/2007, and if not for sAviOr's ridiculous dominance, he would have won a starleague.
Sea has the #1 vote in the poll, but I do not believe that Sea was ever that dominant. He just has been consistently one of the best players of all time, but you usually need to be dominant to win a starleague, and that's why he hasn't gotten far in any star leagues ><
If the poll said "Most deserving player to have never won a starleague", then I woudl have voted for Sea, but his peak was never quite as good as other players on the poll, so I don't think he's the BEST to have never won.
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Midas, if it weren't for Savior, we could have bagged at least a gold in his career ...
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To the signature on top of me, LOL.
I voted Leta because he's such a great ace player. If only his confidence in ace matches (especially when he was in Hite Sparkyz) carry over into individual leagues, he'd be bonjwa. Sadly, poor TvP seems to be one of the greatest hindrances for a Terran player to becoming a champion.
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if jangbi wasnt slumping so bad i wouldve said him.
i guess sea/leta
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Kal, i remember when he was my favorite player a year ago...
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I think Midas, Jangbi or Hwasin (though I guess he doesn't count) would have been closest...
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Close between Leta and Kal, but I chose Kal in the end instead
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konadora
Singapore66072 Posts
Sea, definitely. Most solid and consistent terran in the long run (Iris comes VERY close), yet never getting beyond Ro8.. how sad.
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god damn berserker.. always so close :[
ive always thought hwasin was the best player to never win a starleague though.. meh
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Don't get why people vote Sea, really. He's always been good but never good enough to be a real contender for a title, not even close. Being 3rd-5th best terran consistently does not make you best at anything.
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Gonna go with Iris cause I love aggression but Sea comes very close because he's so consistent and has been for a long time.
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Oh, Calm won Starleague, nice. Well then, Neo.G_Soulkey. Also Baby, but I'm sure he'll win at some point, he's so young and good.
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[NC]...YellOw, i don't even want to argue on this, all old school players should understand why.
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Jangbi, as good as Sea was in proleague he's never been an individual league player. Sea might be the best player to have never made a semifinal but thats about it.
Jangbi was the second best dragon for a while. He was dominating left and right, but Bisu and somewhat weak pvz held him back.
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I would say Kal, i watch a bit of BW and he seems to be a great player, he did really well in WCG 2010 iirc
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On May 15 2011 15:48 L3g3nd_ wrote:
I would say Kal, i watch a bit of BW and he seems to be a great player, he did really well in WCG 2010 iirc
You mean that he qualified or how he played in the Grand Final? ;p
This is fire.power from WCR btw. ;]
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Wow i like Sea but he's never ever been a serious contender to win a Starleague... Whereas players like Jangbi, Iris, Midas during their peaks were at least top 3 candidates for respective leagues.
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Jangbi has 3 finals - 2 MSLs and GSL season 2(the only real GSL). Definitely the most deserving on the list although he slumped hard after his second MSL final
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Voted ACE, because piano isn't in the poll .
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On May 15 2011 15:45 paulinepain wrote:
[NC]...YellOw, i don't even want to argue on this, all old school players should understand why.
Please read what's written just above the poll before posting >_<
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People are absolutely out of their minds if they think anyone but Midas or Iris should be at the top of this poll. These were guys who, for HUGE stretches of time, were considered not just the best at their respective races but top 2 in the game overall. Iris and Midas both were in the "so much better than the rest of the pack" categories during their very extended peaks whereas none of the other players on that list have ever really been so good as to be "way beyond whoever is #3".
Jangbi could make an argument but he was never even really considered the best at his race for any extended period of time - he simply was lucky/skilled enough to make a few finals but certainly didn't deserve to win them. He's close, for sure, but having followed the game when either of the preceding two players were in their primes, it was always a shock when they were knocked out of a league by anyone other than, say, Savior.
Like, I would love to say zerO, because he's a great player and watching him is an amazing treat, but Zero has never been considered #1 or #2 in the game and certainly never #1 zerg with a bullet. Iris and Midas both went through really long periods of time where they were uncontested #1 at their race, not this #3 Terran bullshit that Sea gets a lot of credit for. Being #3-5 Terran for years is an awesome accomplishment but has nothing to do with winning a SL or deserving a title for being, at best, a top10 or top15 player.
So yeah. Iris and Midas both pass the Yellow test; best at their race for a long window, only lost to the very best player/eventually winner at the time, no seriously weak matchups, could give the reigning Bonjwa a run for his money.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 15 2011 16:28 tedster wrote:
People are absolutely out of their minds if they think anyone but Midas or Iris should be at the top of this poll. These were guys who, for HUGE stretches of time, were considered not just the best at their respective races but top 2 in the game overall. Iris and Midas both were in the "so much better than the rest of the pack" categories during their very extended peaks whereas none of the other players on that list have ever really been so good as to be "way beyond whoever is #3".
Jangbi could make an argument but he was never even really considered the best at his race for any extended period of time - he simply was lucky/skilled enough to make a few finals but certainly didn't deserve to win them. He's close, for sure, but having followed the game when either of the preceding two players were in their primes, it was always a shock when they were knocked out of a league by anyone other than, say, Savior.
Like, I would love to say zerO, because he's a great player and watching him is an amazing treat, but Zero has never been considered #1 or #2 in the game and certainly never #1 zerg with a bullet. Iris and Midas both went through really long periods of time where they were uncontested #1 at their race, not this #3 Terran bullshit that Sea gets a lot of credit for. Being #3-5 Terran for years is an awesome accomplishment but has nothing to do with winning a SL or deserving a title for being, at best, a top10 or top15 player
I agree wholeheartedly with this guy's post. I'm a huge fan of Jangbi, but he doesn't really hold a candle to Midas and Iris. I would put my vote in for Iris simply because I watched him at his prime and was unfortunate to never have watch Midas live during his prime. Iris' match-up % against all three races was so good, too. And even later in his career Avalon MSL?, he took it to Bisu. He's reached deep into leagues at different points in his career which makes his resume even better.
and if he didn't freaking choke away a 2-0 lead against GGplay... or his lead against Kwanro... Just so disappointing for him
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After the person you left out on purpose, I think Sea is the next in line for the "most deserving a title" guys.
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I am kinda torn between Iris and Sea. Iris, because of his Bo5 vs Savior, when noone could take a game off of him, let alone go to the 5th game in a bo5 and still put on a fight.
And sea for the obvious reasons ^^
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I voted for Sea, but after thinking about it for a bit i'd have to say Midas. He was really fucking good in 2006-2007, but was always stopped by Savior.
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Yellow not in the post?? despite being forever 2nd?? xP
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Idra...
I mean Iris. I was almost certain he had one going into this thread so I had to switch from Sea when I learned otherwise.
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Japan11285 Posts
Upon glancing the thread, I immediately thought of the King of Special Events. I think midas is the best player to have never won a title.
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this thread is proof that if you have anything remotely colourful and/or resembling a graphic people will ignore everything else about the post. even if the rest of the post is bold, caps, and underlined
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On May 15 2011 16:24 Keone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 15:45 paulinepain wrote:
[NC]...YellOw, i don't even want to argue on this, all old school players should understand why. Please read what's written just above the poll before posting >_<
I actually read it, but i don't feel comfortable putting anybody else except him now if i make the effort of forcing myself to pick up in the list i would say Sea, i believe lot of people point out already the reasons.
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I feel that Sea is probably the best player there but i don't feel like he has ever deserved to win a starleague nor was he ever likely to.
Midas is my first choice. JangBi was second. There were times when you think that they were going to win a starleague but unfortunately they never did.
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Voted FBH. Leta, Zero, JangBi deserve a starleague title too.
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Iris is my choice, Midas was also in my thoughts.
At first I was gonna go for Sea or Zero, but, they've never had a period where they were actually the best and should have won a starleague, and I don't think you should get a starleague vote out of pity.
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Wouldn't it have to be Sea? Even just comparing him to the rest on this list most would think he is better hands down. Kal and Zero are good second place positions though.
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Jangbi/Midas
midas was so scary back then :X
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On May 15 2011 16:28 tedster wrote:
People are absolutely out of their minds if they think anyone but Midas or Iris should be at the top of this poll. These were guys who, for HUGE stretches of time, were considered not just the best at their respective races but top 2 in the game overall. Iris and Midas both were in the "so much better than the rest of the pack" categories during their very extended peaks whereas none of the other players on that list have ever really been so good as to be "way beyond whoever is #3".
Jangbi could make an argument but he was never even really considered the best at his race for any extended period of time - he simply was lucky/skilled enough to make a few finals but certainly didn't deserve to win them. He's close, for sure, but having followed the game when either of the preceding two players were in their primes, it was always a shock when they were knocked out of a league by anyone other than, say, Savior.
Like, I would love to say zerO, because he's a great player and watching him is an amazing treat, but Zero has never been considered #1 or #2 in the game and certainly never #1 zerg with a bullet. Iris and Midas both went through really long periods of time where they were uncontested #1 at their race, not this #3 Terran bullshit that Sea gets a lot of credit for. Being #3-5 Terran for years is an awesome accomplishment but has nothing to do with winning a SL or deserving a title for being, at best, a top10 or top15 player.
So yeah. Iris and Midas both pass the Yellow test; best at their race for a long window, only lost to the very best player/eventually winner at the time, no seriously weak matchups, could give the reigning Bonjwa a run for his money.
When was Iris ever considered top2 in the world? Maybe best Terran for a while, but beside his impressive DAUM run beating Savior and Stork he was never impressive for huge stretches of time, tho his TvT was the best back then. I guess you could argue he was top2-3 in the world for a short period of time, but during that time Iris peaked both Bisu and Savior was considered better by most people. Iris was undoubtedly a good player but Midas was better for sure in my eyes at least, he was just a horrible choker when the stakes got high + he did stuff like choosing to play savior twice. Iris doing well against Savior also probably had something to do with them being teammates as team on team battles are notorious for weird results. (Like Forgg 3-0 Jaedong, Fantasy 3-0 Bisu, Jangbi 3-0 Stork etc)
My choice would be Midas or ZerO. ZerO simply have the biggest potential of playing mindblowingly well of anyone active now, and if he avoids having to play superb ZvZ players he is championship material for sure. Midas because he was simply an amazing player during his prime, sadly he always seemed to have problems with nerves once the stakes got high.
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I think Sea and Baby are good players, that have (or had) the skill, but the've never even made a semi-final. I think it's gotta be Jangbi, BeSt and Kal, not necessarily in that order.
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On May 15 2011 16:28 tedster wrote:
People are absolutely out of their minds if they think anyone but Midas or Iris should be at the top of this poll. These were guys who, for HUGE stretches of time, were considered not just the best at their respective races but top 2 in the game overall. Iris and Midas both were in the "so much better than the rest of the pack" categories during their very extended peaks whereas none of the other players on that list have ever really been so good as to be "way beyond whoever is #3".
Jangbi could make an argument but he was never even really considered the best at his race for any extended period of time - he simply was lucky/skilled enough to make a few finals but certainly didn't deserve to win them. He's close, for sure, but having followed the game when either of the preceding two players were in their primes, it was always a shock when they were knocked out of a league by anyone other than, say, Savior.
Like, I would love to say zerO, because he's a great player and watching him is an amazing treat, but Zero has never been considered #1 or #2 in the game and certainly never #1 zerg with a bullet. Iris and Midas both went through really long periods of time where they were uncontested #1 at their race, not this #3 Terran bullshit that Sea gets a lot of credit for. Being #3-5 Terran for years is an awesome accomplishment but has nothing to do with winning a SL or deserving a title for being, at best, a top10 or top15 player.
So yeah. Iris and Midas both pass the Yellow test; best at their race for a long window, only lost to the very best player/eventually winner at the time, no seriously weak matchups, could give the reigning Bonjwa a run for his money.
"Vote according to WHATEVER criteria you want. "
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51342 Posts
On May 15 2011 19:40 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 16:28 tedster wrote:
People are absolutely out of their minds if they think anyone but Midas or Iris should be at the top of this poll. These were guys who, for HUGE stretches of time, were considered not just the best at their respective races but top 2 in the game overall. Iris and Midas both were in the "so much better than the rest of the pack" categories during their very extended peaks whereas none of the other players on that list have ever really been so good as to be "way beyond whoever is #3".
Jangbi could make an argument but he was never even really considered the best at his race for any extended period of time - he simply was lucky/skilled enough to make a few finals but certainly didn't deserve to win them. He's close, for sure, but having followed the game when either of the preceding two players were in their primes, it was always a shock when they were knocked out of a league by anyone other than, say, Savior.
Like, I would love to say zerO, because he's a great player and watching him is an amazing treat, but Zero has never been considered #1 or #2 in the game and certainly never #1 zerg with a bullet. Iris and Midas both went through really long periods of time where they were uncontested #1 at their race, not this #3 Terran bullshit that Sea gets a lot of credit for. Being #3-5 Terran for years is an awesome accomplishment but has nothing to do with winning a SL or deserving a title for being, at best, a top10 or top15 player.
So yeah. Iris and Midas both pass the Yellow test; best at their race for a long window, only lost to the very best player/eventually winner at the time, no seriously weak matchups, could give the reigning Bonjwa a run for his money. When was Iris ever considered top2 in the world? Maybe best Terran for a while, but beside his impressive DAUM run beating Savior and Stork he was never impressive for huge stretches of time, tho his TvT was the best back then. I guess you could argue he was top2-3 in the world for a short period of time, but during that time Iris peaked both Bisu and Savior was considered better by most people. Iris was undoubtedly a good player but Midas was better for sure in my eyes at least, he was just a horrible choker when the stakes got high + he did stuff like choosing to play savior twice. Iris doing well against Savior also probably had something to do with them being teammates as team on team battles are notorious for weird results. (Like Forgg 3-0 Jaedong, Fantasy 3-0 Bisu, Jangbi 3-0 Stork etc) My choice would be Midas or ZerO. ZerO simply have the biggest potential of playing mindblowingly well of anyone active now, and if he avoids having to play superb ZvZ players he is championship material for sure. Midas because he was simply an amazing player during his prime, sadly he always seemed to have problems with nerves once the stakes got high.
i think midas' mental state towards the game completely shattered after losing to savior that osl. he has never been the same since (sure he's been given a resurgence being in fox now, but i doubt he'd ever reclaim back the skill that he had back then).
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My love for you is like a truck...
Iris of course. He's a terran that even my P playing friends like.
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Just looking at ELO ratings, only Jangbi and YellOw are the players that have above 2300 ELO and have not won any Starleagues.
Midas and BeSt are closely behind with 228*.
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I think that everyone who deserves a title has won one, but maybe chojja should have won another starleague.
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51342 Posts
On May 15 2011 22:10 mdb wrote:
I think that everyone who deserves a title has won one, but maybe chojja should have won another starleague.
if it weren't for the maps, he would have won that osl where he played casy. he played brilliantly on rush hour then just got raped by the rest of the pool (cultivation period, old peaks, 815).
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Best Player - The highest skilled player that can be considered best in the world
JangBi or Midas hands down.
The rest maybe consistent, have potential, or have a killer match up. But they are still a long shot for being best of the best.
Midas's prime was in 2006-2007 - a period that all other Terran bonjwas were past their prime. He had the chance of being at the top against the reign of Savior. His revolution to the aggressive terran style is still in play at present.
JangBi's prime was in late 2008 till early 2009 - the era of TBLS. His prime was short-lived but making three final over a span of only 4 months was quite a feat. Despite three crushing 1-3 finals defeats during the period, his winning record was at an astounding 70%.
Voted Jangbi because his play was such an art and I would like to see him back.
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My first thought was Sea, but he's never made it deep into any individual league (past the ro8 ), which is the criteria I've arbitrarily decided to use for now. I'd probably go with Jangbi like most people, as he was easily one of the best players in the world record-wise and individual league-wise during the short Golden Age of Protoss.
I wonder if a Worst Player to Have Won A Starleague thread/poll would be viable. "Worst" would be kind of misleading though, as all SL champs have been at least very solid (i.e. Mind, Calm, Hydra, Luxury).
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I agree that Iris and Midas are arguably amongst the players that most deserve to win a Starleague, but given how far past they are from their primes, it would take a truckload of miracles for the likes of the veterans of old to hold their own against modern S-Class players (see Midas vs Jaedong).
I personally would like to see Light at least reach the finals of a Starleague; granted he's pretty inconsistent right now but his form during the 09-10 Season (especially during the Winner's League and Bigfile MSL) pretty much established his reputation as a solid A-Class Terran player.
Now if only free could actually help him fix his horrid TvP skills, Light would definitely be a much more powerful player than he already is (TvZ is amongst the best and he's super solid in TvT).
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
WTF Sea on 1st place? I vote ZerO... X_X
I think, honestly - Sea hasn't got the potential to win a SL. ZerO has.
The other one who has imho is Light, recently he shows that his TvP is improving, and his TvZ and TvT are already good.
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On May 15 2011 23:18 reincremate wrote:
I wonder if a Worst Player to Have Won A Starleague thread/poll would be viable. "Worst" would be kind of misleading though, as all SL champs have been at least very solid (i.e. Mind, Calm, Hydra, Luxury).
Casy a former Osl champion comes to mind. He is a poor man's boxer, terrible marco, bad tvp, his tvt is decent and cheesy as well. His tvz was pretty good which is why he won the zerg heavy 2006 ShinHan OSL. PLus the map pool was pretty imba if I recall.
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On May 16 2011 01:33 _Quasar_ wrote:
WTF Sea on 1st place? I vote ZerO... X_X
I think, honestly - Sea hasn't got the potential to win a SL. ZerO has.
The other one who has imho is Light, recently he shows that his TvP is improving, and his TvZ and TvT are already good.
Sea all match ups super solid and higher than 57%.How to you saying he hasnt got potential?
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Sea and Midas, definitely.
Iris was pretty sick too for a while, but he was in the shadow of giants.
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I voted ZerO because I think I have seen him perform with the most raw talent in the past couple years but usually fail in the OSL Ro8 or MSL Ro4 (or earlier).
Sea has the 6th most wins of all time, yet has never made it past a Ro8, so it's hard to judge him here.
Jang Bi was the third most successful Protoss in the dragon era and his 3 finals have been mentioned many times, but of course he has fallen since then.
Kal would be my runner up, simply because he has been the most successful Protoss after Bisu and Stork beyond the dragon era (except when free dominated briefly). His win over Flash in the last OSL was telling.
I guess my criteria then is which current player has both done good in the past, and still has a serious shot to win a Starleague. So that's:
1. ZerO
2. Kal
Sea made dual Ro8 a couple seasons ago, but something still doesn't seem right with him. I guess he'd be number 3 though.
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Even though I'm a complete Leta hater, he definitely has the skill-set to win a starleague (especially when considering players like Luxury won... ._.,
Also Zero and Kal are fantastic players, though Zero's zvz has single handily kept him from winning :|
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No Hyuk, no legitimacy in poll.
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worst player to ever win a starleague.... Rock
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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I'd go with either Iris or Midas, both stellar terrans of their time and both eclipsed by sAviOr.
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On May 16 2011 02:12 fruchtzergeis wrote:worst player to ever win a starleague.... Rock
He beat Jaedong in a Bo5 and Flash in a Bo3. That's pretty baller.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On May 16 2011 01:37 Mirl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 01:33 _Quasar_ wrote:
WTF Sea on 1st place? I vote ZerO... X_X
I think, honestly - Sea hasn't got the potential to win a SL. ZerO has.
The other one who has imho is Light, recently he shows that his TvP is improving, and his TvZ and TvT are already good. Sea all match ups super solid and higher than 57%.How to you saying he hasnt got potential?
Because he fails miserably vs. big players like Stork, Bisu, Flash and Jaedong. ZerO doesn't (even against Jaedong, while ZvZ is his most shit match-up).
That's why I wrote he has no potential of winning a Starleague, because for this you need to be able to put down at least one of those players in bo5 or bo3, and I don't see how he does that to anyone of TBLS. X_X On the other hand ZerO fucking pwned Stork, going 5-0 in last matches vs. him, and beating him 3-0 in a series... =__=
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Baltimore, USA22250 Posts
Considering most recent forms (recent being past couple years), Kal. Overall in terms of OMFG RAW TALENT with bad luck, Midas.
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I'm surprised midas isn't at the top of the list... I guess it's because most people havn't been around long enough to see or hear about how he used to be. A boss. He could have won back in the savior days.
Light is very good I suppose, he needs stronger vP though.
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On May 15 2011 19:54 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 16:28 tedster wrote:
People are absolutely out of their minds if they think anyone but Midas or Iris should be at the top of this poll. These were guys who, for HUGE stretches of time, were considered not just the best at their respective races but top 2 in the game overall. Iris and Midas both were in the "so much better than the rest of the pack" categories during their very extended peaks whereas none of the other players on that list have ever really been so good as to be "way beyond whoever is #3".
Jangbi could make an argument but he was never even really considered the best at his race for any extended period of time - he simply was lucky/skilled enough to make a few finals but certainly didn't deserve to win them. He's close, for sure, but having followed the game when either of the preceding two players were in their primes, it was always a shock when they were knocked out of a league by anyone other than, say, Savior.
Like, I would love to say zerO, because he's a great player and watching him is an amazing treat, but Zero has never been considered #1 or #2 in the game and certainly never #1 zerg with a bullet. Iris and Midas both went through really long periods of time where they were uncontested #1 at their race, not this #3 Terran bullshit that Sea gets a lot of credit for. Being #3-5 Terran for years is an awesome accomplishment but has nothing to do with winning a SL or deserving a title for being, at best, a top10 or top15 player.
So yeah. Iris and Midas both pass the Yellow test; best at their race for a long window, only lost to the very best player/eventually winner at the time, no seriously weak matchups, could give the reigning Bonjwa a run for his money. "Vote according to WHATEVER criteria you want. "
Yeah srsly i voted for zero because he has glasses, why are ppl discussing this
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On May 16 2011 02:39 reincremate wrote:He beat Jaedong in a Bo5 and Flash in a Bo3. That's pretty baller.
But...but...he never won a starleague...
On May 16 2011 02:43 _Quasar_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 01:37 Mirl wrote:On May 16 2011 01:33 _Quasar_ wrote:
WTF Sea on 1st place? I vote ZerO... X_X
I think, honestly - Sea hasn't got the potential to win a SL. ZerO has.
The other one who has imho is Light, recently he shows that his TvP is improving, and his TvZ and TvT are already good. Sea all match ups super solid and higher than 57%.How to you saying he hasnt got potential? Because he fails miserably vs. big players like Stork, Bisu, Flash and Jaedong. ZerO doesn't (even against Jaedong, while ZvZ is his most shit match-up). That's why I wrote he has no potential of winning a Starleague, because for this you need to be able to put down at least one of those players in bo5 or bo3, and I don't see how he does that to anyone of TBLS. X_X On the other hand ZerO fucking pwned Stork, going 5-0 in last matches vs. him, and beating him 3-0 in a series... =__=
You do know that before Stork was known for his insanely good PvT, he was infamous for his PvZ? He couldn't win a game even if his life depended on it. And he still isn't THAT good in PvZ (Although he did ALMOST beat JD in bo5), although there is no denying he is a great player
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if more people voting knew about bw before 2010 midas, iris would have more votes
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On May 16 2011 02:57 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 02:39 reincremate wrote:On May 16 2011 02:12 fruchtzergeis wrote:worst player to ever win a starleague.... Rock He beat Jaedong in a Bo5 and Flash in a Bo3. That's pretty baller. But...but...he never won a starleague...
Yo man, OGN StarChallenge is srs bznz. It's like winning an OSL almost.
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I'd say Iris and Sea. Maybe Kal and Midas, too. Iris came in second twice and was cut off another shot (where he was the clear favorite) by the protoss and terran graveyard maps of the zerg era. Sea was consistently one of the top players for such a long time but never had any star league accomplishments sadly. Midas is an oldschool topdog but not long ago had very good results in PL and SL. Kal always falls against some top guys and I think he will as always come back soon and dominate most A class guys but I don't see him ever really being the top dog.
Jangbi and best had very short times where they were very good but have fallen so fast and hard that I can't really say they are top prospects. Zero's dominant times are just too short and he has his zvz achilles heel but maybe if he keeps it up for another year or so I may consider him worthy of a spot. Baby has to be a joke that he gets mentioned. In his best times he was considered a guy the top dogs have to watch out but really those were the times when most others were slumping a little and he has played only about half as many games as the guys I mentioned before.
Those are my thoughts^^ feel free to agree or disagree
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Iris should have won 2 starleagues... in his prime he was just so good.
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On May 16 2011 03:18 triangle wrote:
Iris should have won 2 starleagues... in his prime he was just so good.
Well, Savior and GGplay were amazing as well, the only starleague he should have won is the one he got cheesed to death by his teammate, kwanro
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On May 16 2011 03:20 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 03:18 triangle wrote:
Iris should have won 2 starleagues... in his prime he was just so good. Well, Savior and GGplay were amazing as well, the only starleague he should have won is the one he got cheesed to death by his teammate, kwanro
Nah that belonged to Calm. But Iris should have made finals for a great TvZ final instead of Kwanro vs. Calm
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I voted for Midas. Even tough i wasnt around at the time of his peak, i base it on what i have read about him. I got into korean bw in the fall of 2008 when Stork won against Fantasy and finally became an OSL champion. I Remember Midas had good run back then (he got knocked out by BeSt's stellar pvt in the ro8).
At the time i got the impression that Midas was one of the top players. I wasnt aware that he had slumped more or less since his defeats by sAviOr almost two years before and that this was a comeback of his. Soon after Midas disappeared again under the radar again. Then i found out how good he once was. That he was Saviour biggest rival back in 2006/2007 and that he was this amazing strategist. A lot of the Modern timings in tvz is contributed by Midas.
Midas has been around for a long time. He became a pro back in 2002. Back then he was in the Greatest Ones team (the team predecessor to CJ) alongside players like , XellOs, Gorush and fOru. He has been a korean representative at WCG two times, winning the korean selection in 2004 and placing second in the world finals, losing to his teammate Xellos.
It has been a joy to witness his resurgent play this last year. Of all the old schoolers, no one has lasted as long as Baby Bear. Remember this game ?
Honorary mention:
firebathero. His tvp ruined things for him. His tvz and tvt on the other hand, was stuff of legends.
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Iris or Jangbi.
Sea has been consistently solid but I've never really thought of him as a player that could win a league.
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Well, actually a starleague is an OSL (ongamenet starleague). And MSL is a starcraft league (MBCGame starcraft league). So my answer to the question would be Bisu. ;P
The answer to the question OP had in mind is much harder to give. Leta, Kal, Midas and maybe even Sea all deserved it at some point in time. I voted for Leta because i like him most of all the players in the poll.
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It's gotta be Kal and to a less degree Zero. Sea was never even close to make it to the Round of 8 at any point, during any starleague.
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I voted for once of ACE because i'm really biased towards Much and Iris, but deep down I know that Sea has the potential to win one and I thought last year it might have been his oppourtunity but then he had to get rolled easily. ;_;
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YELLOW. HOW THE HELL DO YOU GUYS FORGET.
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On May 16 2011 06:24 altered wrote:
And MSL is a starcraft league (MBCGame starcraft league).
..What? MSL is MBCGame Starleague. Therefore it doesn't matter whether it's OSL or MSL since both are starleagues.
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right now zero
in the past midas
sea is overrated.
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Japan11285 Posts
On May 16 2011 10:32 sinistral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 06:24 altered wrote:
And MSL is a starcraft league (MBCGame starcraft league). ..What? MSL is MBCGame Starleague. Therefore it doesn't matter whether it's OSL or MSL since both are starleagues.
Umm......
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MSL
But yes it doesn't matter because I think he was fooling around. ^^
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On May 16 2011 10:09 MageKirby wrote:
YELLOW. HOW THE HELL DO YOU GUYS FORGET.
On May 16 2011 10:45 ConSenT wrote:
Yellow, obviously.
Sigh... please read post properly before posting... especially the big bolded all-caps sections T_T
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Iris had an insanely good run couple seasons back when he knocked Bisu out of the OSL. He was alive in OSL Ro4, MSL RO8 and GSL final simultaneously if I recall. And then he fell apart. Iris is also an OSL finalist, lost 2-3 to ggplay.
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I voted for Leta. Back in late 2008 - early 2009, Leta put together one of the most monstrous streaks BW has ever seen, both in record and in power. From October '08 until mid-February '09, Leta was incredible. Then he lost a ton of games in a short span of time and never really recovered to that form.
He should've gotten Lost Saga over Luxury, imo.
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I voted for Sea, cuz peer pressure.
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JangBi was supposedly the "perfect protoss" with the combination play style of Bisu and Stork... but now... = (
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Jangbi was indeed the failed Bork Archon.
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On May 16 2011 14:37 ShadeR wrote:
Jangbi was indeed the failed Bork Archon.
The sad thing is that he's the only person on that list who ever broke 2300 ELO.
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On May 16 2011 10:58 Keone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 10:09 MageKirby wrote:
YELLOW. HOW THE HELL DO YOU GUYS FORGET. Sigh... please read post properly before posting... especially the big bolded all-caps sections T_T
I'm pretty sure Yellow is still playing o-o Just that he's not good enough anymore ;x
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I voted for Sea
He is in of my fav players
I was sure He was gonna win in group D
He is also a very funny guy xD
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I voted for Ace (FBH, I'm a fanboy, not a rational choice), but I wish I could have seen type-b play more, he was just starting to get really good when he was banned (legitimately and rightly).
A lot of those players, however, are pretty memorable, and I suppose I would give honorable mention to Sea.
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You should've added Yellow anyway -- he probably would've finished 2nd as well. /burn
My vote goes to Jangbi. He was perhaps the most talented out of all those to have never won gold. Well, at least until late 2010, where he suffered a ridiculous 14-game loss streak. His slump is probably worse than Savior's ever was, but at least we've gotten to see a few glimpses of his former self with his recent victories over Sea and Sacsri.
In terms of consistency, I'd have to go with Sea, but Jangbi was such a monster back in his prime.
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Poor Sea just keeps getting run over by S-class players
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Of these, Sea by a couple miles. Light's close. Of all of them I'd say ZerO/Leta have the biggest upside still (aka are most likely to actually win one eventually).
I think free probably had the best skill peak (2008-ish) of any of the older non-SL winners, but I've got no read on where he really is these days. There was that amazing OSL run but otherwise it's been pretty much nothing lately.
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On May 16 2011 10:58 Keone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 10:09 MageKirby wrote:
YELLOW. HOW THE HELL DO YOU GUYS FORGET. Sigh... please read post properly before posting... especially the big bolded all-caps sections T_T
Still Yellow o.o
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With the Kong being inelegible it has to be Kal
Oh Kal
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I'm pretty sure it's Midas. I mean, being the only one that could challenge the Maestro at his peak sure deserves some credit.
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On May 17 2011 05:27 KlaCkoN wrote:With the Kong being inelegible it has to be Kal Oh Kal
that guy is so deserving!
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Gotta be Iris. Dude went toe to toe in bo5 with sAviOr in his bonjwa days, as well as many other achievments. One of the most fun to watch/agressive terrans too. The last time I closely followed a starleague I think was the one where he lost to Flash in the semi's and Flash went on to win it all, he put so much into that run. Infact now I think of it, wasn't he in 2 semi's at the same time and lost both? Sorry I can't be more specific ^_^.
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Midas without a doubt really.
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On May 17 2011 01:04 MageKirby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 10:58 Keone wrote:On May 16 2011 10:09 MageKirby wrote:
YELLOW. HOW THE HELL DO YOU GUYS FORGET. On May 16 2011 10:45 ConSenT wrote:
Yellow, obviously. Sigh... please read post properly before posting... especially the big bolded all-caps sections T_T I'm pretty sure Yellow is still playing o-o Just that he's not good enough anymore ;x
I know you just went to read OP again... but... read it one more time, especially ALL the bold, caps, and underlined parts.
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I'm surprised Sea is winning this poll. To me when you answer the question 'who is the best to never win a starleague,' you think of players who came close but couldn't get over the hump. Players who you can say 'they would have won a starleage if only...' Midas would have won a starleage if only Savior didn't exist. Best would have won a starleague if only he didn't suck at PvZ. Sea never even made a semifinal so it's not like he was ever really close.
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On May 17 2011 14:53 red4ce wrote:
I'm surprised Sea is winning this poll. To me when you answer the question 'who is the best to never win a starleague,' you think of players who came close but couldn't get over the hump. Players who you can say 'they would have won a starleage if only...' Midas would have won a starleage if only Savior didn't exist. Best would have won a starleague if only he didn't suck at PvZ. Sea never even made a semifinal so it's not like he was ever really close.
Sea would've won the korean air osl s2 if only he didnt have to face stork (great PvT at the time), then Jaedong and then Flash
Sea would've won the bigfile too if only he didn't have to play jaedong, light (who's light?), then flash.
If TBLS didn't exist, Sea may as well have been a dual finalist.
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Baby. The only person who could take on TBLS and people would give him a fair shot at winning. You put Sea in there, and I don't think many people would give him as much credit. Zero would also be a good choice.
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I'm wondering how much of Sea's vote comes from being first on the poll. My bet is at least 1/3.
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I think Sea gets a lot of votes because:
1) he gets sympathy for being put into the group of Death
2) currently he's propably the best player on the list with 60% win rate
3) He seems to be a very humble and nice guy
4) You can understand the question to be about who is the best player at the moment to not have won a starleague. That would be Sea very likely.
Btw, why is yellow not on the list. I don't understand the reasoning here:
READ: You'll notice I purposely left out one very important person. This is because I cannot bear to let this person become #1 on a poll, which I know will happen. And as an eternal SCBW fan, I can't let that happen, can I?
Is the op confusing him with Savior? Or is he too obvious #1 choice for the list or what?
Edit: ok.. now I get it lol.
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On May 17 2011 13:57 raviy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 01:04 MageKirby wrote:On May 16 2011 10:58 Keone wrote:On May 16 2011 10:09 MageKirby wrote:
YELLOW. HOW THE HELL DO YOU GUYS FORGET. On May 16 2011 10:45 ConSenT wrote:
Yellow, obviously. Sigh... please read post properly before posting... especially the big bolded all-caps sections T_T I'm pretty sure Yellow is still playing o-o Just that he's not good enough anymore ;x I know you just went to read OP again... but... read it one more time, especially ALL the bold, caps, and underlined parts.
Oh. Man, you guys don't trust us? Of course we'll make sure he gets 2nd again.
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zero, hes a fucking excellent macro zerg i feel like he always get knocked out by some ZvZ or some other problem. I can understand team liquid voting for Sea though
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I voted Zero because out of everyone on this list he's the only one I see as good enough to eventually win a starleague as well as being damn good for awhile and making pretty deep starleague runs. Also it seems over the last 3 years that any above average zerg can snatch a title (Calm, Hydra, Luxury, Effort but he is clearly better than the other three by a large margin).Otherwise it's clearly Jangbi, the only silver surfer left. Iris is a close third because he only got stopped by Savior and GGplay who had to go and redefine ZvT as we know it to beat him.
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Most KeSPA wins:
Jaedong 551전 376승 175패 68.2%
NaDa 629전 375승 254패 59.6%
Flash 479전 343승 136패 71.6%
Stork 534전 321승 213패 60.1%
Bisu 473전 306승 167패 64.7%
Sea 423전 255승 168패 60.3%
BoxeR 462전 253승 209패 54.8%
YellOw 414전 228승 186패 55.1%
XellOs 398전 225승 173패 56.5%
Light 381전 210승 171패 55.1%
free 370전 209승 161패 56.5%
Kal 376전 209승 167패 55.6%
July 372전 208승 164패 55.9%
iloveoov 334전 203승 131패 60.8%
Fantasy 329전 201승 128패 61.1%
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Sea isn't getting all those votes just because he's deserving, he found a place in teamliquid's heart when he went on teamliquid attack. Do not try to pin it on him being first on the poll, that's insulting to him and the general teamliquid populous.
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Japan11285 Posts
On May 17 2011 17:30 rift wrote:iloveoov 334전 203승 131패 60.8%
Oov doesn't TLPDize correctly....
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On May 15 2011 22:20 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 22:10 mdb wrote:
I think that everyone who deserves a title has won one, but maybe chojja should have won another starleague. if it weren't for the maps, he would have won that osl where he played casy. he played brilliantly on rush hour then just got raped by the rest of the pool (cultivation period, old peaks, 815).
No GTR you fool, that OSL belonged to Yellow ! But the least deserving SL winner Casy went trough...
On topic, Yellow was the obvious choice of course, i understand why he was left apart, there wouldn't be any debate.
I think that Midas and Iris are on top of my list. Maybe Iris more than Midas because Midas choked a bit more and his peak was during Savior's reign, he came really close to break his dominance but he just fell short.
Iris peak came just at the end of Savior's, he was one of the guy who ousted him actually, beating him in ro8 of Daum 07, then he destroyed Stork and lost to GGplay amazing hive control. I can't think of another guy who played so well, came this close and still never won it. He was like climbing Mt Everest and he fell 10m away from summit.
Jangbi, imo never had it. He got really great at a time, but he was a new Zeus to me, a good protoss, a huge choker.
Best was a PvT wonder, abusing your easy match-up can help you become an undeserving winner just like Casy. thanks to July, it didn't happen!
Kal, Leta, Zero, Light, were never the best players of their respectives races at a time. Kal got a final but every knew he was gonna lose, i mean he was playing JD...
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On May 17 2011 20:44 ~chut~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 22:20 GTR wrote:On May 15 2011 22:10 mdb wrote:
I think that everyone who deserves a title has won one, but maybe chojja should have won another starleague. if it weren't for the maps, he would have won that osl where he played casy. he played brilliantly on rush hour then just got raped by the rest of the pool (cultivation period, old peaks, 815). No GTR you fool, that OSL belonged to Yellow ! But the least deserving SL winner Casy went trough... On topic, Yellow was the obvious choice of course, i understand why he was left apart, there wouldn't be any debate. I think that Midas and Iris are on top of my list. Maybe Iris more than Midas because Midas choked a bit more and his peak was during Savior's reign, he came really close to break his dominance but he just fell short. Iris peak came just at the end of Savior's, he was one of the guy who ousted him actually, beating him in ro8 of Daum 07, then he destroyed Stork and lost to GGplay amazing hive control. I can't think of another guy who played so well, came this close and still never won it. He was like climbing Mt Everest and he fell 10m away from summit. Jangbi, imo never had it. He got really great at a time, but he was a new Zeus to me, a good protoss, a huge choker. Best was a PvT wonder, abusing your easy match-up can help you become an undeserving winner just like Casy. thanks to July, it didn't happen! Kal, Leta, Zero, Light, were never the best players of their respectives races at a time. Kal got a final but every knew he was gonna lose, i mean he was playing JD...
actually best back then was known for his pvp
midas would be my pick
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On May 17 2011 17:14 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I voted Zero because out of everyone on this list he's the only one I see as good enough to eventually win a starleague as well as being damn good for awhile and making pretty deep starleague runs
so true, i really want him to win a starleague i think he really deserves it.
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On May 17 2011 20:47 GoodRamen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 20:44 ~chut~ wrote:On May 15 2011 22:20 GTR wrote:On May 15 2011 22:10 mdb wrote:
I think that everyone who deserves a title has won one, but maybe chojja should have won another starleague. if it weren't for the maps, he would have won that osl where he played casy. he played brilliantly on rush hour then just got raped by the rest of the pool (cultivation period, old peaks, 815). No GTR you fool, that OSL belonged to Yellow ! But the least deserving SL winner Casy went trough... On topic, Yellow was the obvious choice of course, i understand why he was left apart, there wouldn't be any debate. I think that Midas and Iris are on top of my list. Maybe Iris more than Midas because Midas choked a bit more and his peak was during Savior's reign, he came really close to break his dominance but he just fell short. Iris peak came just at the end of Savior's, he was one of the guy who ousted him actually, beating him in ro8 of Daum 07, then he destroyed Stork and lost to GGplay amazing hive control. I can't think of another guy who played so well, came this close and still never won it. He was like climbing Mt Everest and he fell 10m away from summit. Jangbi, imo never had it. He got really great at a time, but he was a new Zeus to me, a good protoss, a huge choker. Best was a PvT wonder, abusing your easy match-up can help you become an undeserving winner just like Casy. thanks to July, it didn't happen! Kal, Leta, Zero, Light, were never the best players of their respectives races at a time. Kal got a final but every knew he was gonna lose, i mean he was playing JD... actually best back then was known for his pvp midas would be my pick
He had a good pvp too, it's true, but, given the nature of pvp, his pvt was more stable imo.
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JangBi IMO. He was on the cusp of seizing multiple Starleagues. At his prime, all his matchups were top 3. Can't say the same for Sea because he always had Fantasy/Leta/Light/Mind and now Baby to hog the 2nd best Terran spotlight with. Sea was simply solid - the ultimate gatekeeper. I sincerely hope he can still break out of that (maybe if he gets transferred off MBC to a more competitive environment)
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On May 18 2011 01:03 ~chut~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 20:47 GoodRamen wrote:On May 17 2011 20:44 ~chut~ wrote:On May 15 2011 22:20 GTR wrote:On May 15 2011 22:10 mdb wrote:
I think that everyone who deserves a title has won one, but maybe chojja should have won another starleague. if it weren't for the maps, he would have won that osl where he played casy. he played brilliantly on rush hour then just got raped by the rest of the pool (cultivation period, old peaks, 815). No GTR you fool, that OSL belonged to Yellow ! But the least deserving SL winner Casy went trough... On topic, Yellow was the obvious choice of course, i understand why he was left apart, there wouldn't be any debate. I think that Midas and Iris are on top of my list. Maybe Iris more than Midas because Midas choked a bit more and his peak was during Savior's reign, he came really close to break his dominance but he just fell short. Iris peak came just at the end of Savior's, he was one of the guy who ousted him actually, beating him in ro8 of Daum 07, then he destroyed Stork and lost to GGplay amazing hive control. I can't think of another guy who played so well, came this close and still never won it. He was like climbing Mt Everest and he fell 10m away from summit. Jangbi, imo never had it. He got really great at a time, but he was a new Zeus to me, a good protoss, a huge choker. Best was a PvT wonder, abusing your easy match-up can help you become an undeserving winner just like Casy. thanks to July, it didn't happen! Kal, Leta, Zero, Light, were never the best players of their respectives races at a time. Kal got a final but every knew he was gonna lose, i mean he was playing JD... actually best back then was known for his pvp midas would be my pick He had a good pvp too, it's true, but, given the nature of pvp, his pvt was more stable imo.
yeah he only had an 82% pvp winrate up until the ever osl finals, with a grand total of 5 (yes 5 lol) pvp losses in his career. his pvp was wayyyyyy less volatile than his pvt back then
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Hyuk may not have the wins.
He doesn't really have the skills, either.
But he does have...my ♥
Sea's pretty good, though. I kind of missed the Iris boat; too noob
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Just look at the winrates. Leta and Sea with both almost 60% are monsters. I feel Leta is better than Sea as in, has accomplished more, so i voted Leta.
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Kal is always looking promising, then a wild JD appears and knocks him out, it's almost funny to watch
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Yeh, I would say Kal when he's on form.
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Kal. Sea while more consistent in PL and in general has always failed hard in individual leagues. You can't fault Kal for getting owned by JD and Flash every time he gets close to the finals.
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Sea in terms of having potential to deliver.
I guess I give sympathy for Iris for being so close to huge wins for so many times. Getting reverse sweeped in OSL finals, getting 3-2'd by in form Savior in an awesome serie, getting reverse sweeped by Kwanro in MSL semis, getting beaten by Flash's TvT in GomTV finals.
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Most realistic choice would be Kal.
A choice made more on feelings, i would like to see Midas finally get one.
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On May 18 2011 01:43 Caladbolg wrote:
JangBi IMO. He was on the cusp of seizing multiple Starleagues. At his prime, all his matchups were top 3. Can't say the same for Sea because he always had Fantasy/Leta/Light/Mind and now Baby to hog the 2nd best Terran spotlight with. Sea was simply solid - the ultimate gatekeeper. I sincerely hope he can still break out of that (maybe if he gets transferred off MBC to a more competitive environment)
Whatever happened to Jangbi. Back in his days, he played like a boss. Now....
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Sea has consistently for some time performed at the skill level of a starleague champion.
Midas definitely deserves something for all the times he has come close to making the final. For a long time he was a player everyone feared. Now he'll slowly be phased out like all the other veterans who lack the prestige so crucial for longevity.. Poor guy he's been playing games for his life since he was 14..
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so it seems there is a curse that if you beat kal in the semifinals you always lose in the finals
and the only one to break that was flash .....
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Kal , leta and jangbi ( back in the golden protoss era ) jangbi in current form I think he don't deserve a title
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On May 18 2011 05:53 AlwaysGG wrote:
jangbi in current form I think he don't deserve a title
well that's an understatement
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I think Sea definitely deserves this dubious distinction... he's been a beloved and consistent player that simply have never gotten that big break in order to taste individual gold. He's sort of a pro team that always plays well during the regular season, goes to the playoffs but can never get out of the first round.
His crown prince would definitely be Leta, another guy who did a lot for a middling team but also has had no individual sucess (we'll see how he does against Flash but you just know he's not likely to make it since he also have a 'choker' label)
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I will go with FBH,he had a good run couple years ago and he has the potential!
and he is very good lately
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On May 18 2011 06:11 amazingoopah wrote:I think Sea definitely deserves this dubious distinction... he's been a beloved and consistent player
Not in individual leagues he hasn't, which is exactly why he doesn't fit this nomination. Sea has historically had an abysmal individual league record. Kal on the other hand has made quite a few ro8 and ro4 appearances these past 2 years.
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On May 18 2011 06:34 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 06:11 amazingoopah wrote:I think Sea definitely deserves this dubious distinction... he's been a beloved and consistent player Not in individual leagues he hasn't, which is exactly why he doesn't fit this nomination. Sea has historically had an abysmal individual league record. Kal on the other hand has made quite a few ro8 and ro4 appearances these past 2 years.
so is kwanro but no one is suggesting putting his name ...
i guess i never really found kal able to take a starleague the only one i feel robbed from a starleague is either jangbi or leta
leta for losing to cheesy luxury in a crazy b05 on the msl where flash and jaedong got out early
and jangbi.... well in his prime he had what it takes to take out anyone (a side a competent zerg)
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Koll! He's fucking amazing.
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I just realized:
mOvie! especially that run in the ever osl. Despite losing to jaedong from a dongling runby, he crushed zero, and shine. Even took a game off flash.
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I don't know how Midas and Iris don't have more votes. :/
Like I said before, next to FakeSteve, I'm Sea's biggest fan but considering the guy always had a habit of bowing out so early I cannot give him the nod.
Iris has come close to winning a final on more than one occasion as several people have mentioned and Midas used to be a beast right next to XellOs.
I can understand votes for Kal too, but even then Iris and Midas came a lot closer. Out of the active stars I would probably say Kal or ZerO.
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On May 26 2011 12:53 Release wrote:
I just realized:
mOvie! especially that run in the ever osl. Despite losing to jaedong from a dongling runby, he crushed zero, and shine. Even took a game off flash.
I think Movie was lucky that he ran into a lot of Zergs, I think he would have gotten crushed by Stork in the ro4.
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On May 26 2011 12:53 Release wrote:
I just realized:
mOvie! especially that run in the ever osl. Despite losing to jaedong from a dongling runby, he crushed zero, and shine. Even took a game off flash.
It was a really lucky run tbh. The only reason that flash lost a game was because he didn't have one of his maphax scans on the stargates. Really, the only game that I remember from movie's entire run was that some heavy harass against flash on el nino.
IMO, best player who never won a starleague is jangbi or midas in the past, zero now.
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no spanishiwa?
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Zero, even though Sea is more consistent, he has shown more impressive skills, sporadically though. At some point he is gonna stop running into zergs and beat flash in a bo5.
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United States4053 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:20 KillerPlague wrote:no spanishiwa?
No, I just don't think he's good enough.
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On May 15 2011 04:31 Keone wrote:READ: You'll notice I purposely left out one very important person. This is because I cannot bear to let this person become #1 on a poll, which I know will happen. And as an eternal SCBW fan, I can't let that happen, can I?
psh. Like we'd let Yellow get anything but #2 on the poll.
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thanks
I really think Iris should be considered
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On May 17 2011 09:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
Midas without a doubt really.
I'm pretty sure Midas is the correct answer (though I can see arguments for Iris and Jangbi). The guy is practically the unsung hero of Terran innovation, even in recent times.
Along with iloveoov he established the pillars of standard play in TvP and TvZ at the least (FD - formerly referred to as the Midas Push - 1-Rax expand, etc.), and seems to receives absolutely no credit for several trends that he was onto before other players.
The Incurit OSL (which saw the birth of the "Fantasy Build" and a new era of Mechanic in TvZ) actually featured Midas using Valkyries and pure mech army composition before Fantasy did.
Midas was opening 1-Rax expo versus Protoss at the same time (if not sooner) than Flash was (around the time of the Ever 2009 OSL, to be clear).
Midas was also one of the first Terrans (again, if not the first - I need to check the dates and specific games) to transition into full mechanic after playing a textbook bionic early and mid-game in 2010.
For all of these things, Midas receives close to zero recognition. I have not even mentioned his powerful gameplay and impressive winning statistics during his prime.
If I have time, I will look up individual games and some well-written articles that emphasize some of Midas' unrecognized achievements.
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I just remembered Hwasin .
Think about it, he was Bisu's insurance. If he never faced Bisu, he might have won starleagues -_-
On May 26 2011 13:04 StarStruck wrote:
I don't know how Midas and Iris don't have more votes. :/
Like I said before, next to FakeSteve, I'm Sea's biggest fan but considering the guy always had a habit of bowing out so early I cannot give him the nod.
Iris has come close to winning a final on more than one occasion as several people have mentioned and Midas used to be a beast right next to XellOs.
I can understand votes for Kal too, but even then Iris and Midas came a lot closer. Out of the active stars I would probably say Kal or ZerO.
Its the timing of this thread. was made after the Group of Death in the MSL (Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Sea)
People had sympathy for Sea cause he was placed into this group.
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On June 26 2011 10:36 Kenpachi wrote:I just remembered Hwasin . Think about it, he was Bisu's insurance. If he never faced Bisu, he might have won starleagues -_- Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 13:04 StarStruck wrote:
I don't know how Midas and Iris don't have more votes. :/
Like I said before, next to FakeSteve, I'm Sea's biggest fan but considering the guy always had a habit of bowing out so early I cannot give him the nod.
Iris has come close to winning a final on more than one occasion as several people have mentioned and Midas used to be a beast right next to XellOs.
I can understand votes for Kal too, but even then Iris and Midas came a lot closer. Out of the active stars I would probably say Kal or ZerO. Its the timing of this thread. was made after the Group of Death in the MSL (Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Sea) People had sympathy for Sea cause he was placed into this group.
You could probably make an argument for Hwasin as well. To our great disservice, however, he is no longer an active player.
As far as Sea goes, I can understand the sympathy, in addition to the great rapport that he has developed with foreign fans, but I don't think those are reasons to vote for him as a player.
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On June 26 2011 10:23 KP_CollectoR wrote:I'm pretty sure Midas is the correct answer (though I can see arguments for Iris and Jangbi). The guy is practically the unsung hero of Terran innovation, even in recent times. Along with iloveoov he established the pillars of standard play in TvP and TvZ at the least (FD - formerly referred to as the Midas Push - 1-Rax expand, etc.), and seems to receives absolutely no credit for several trends that he was onto before other players. The Incurit OSL (which saw the birth of the "Fantasy Build" and a new era of Mechanic in TvZ) actually featured Midas using Valkyries and pure mech army composition before Fantasy did.
While I agree with you for the most part about Midas, and this is true, I'm more inclined to congratulate the map Plasma for ushering in the mech and valkyrie revolution. What a fun little map it was, too.
Midas was opening 1-Rax expo versus Protoss at the same time (if not sooner) than Flash was (around the time of the Ever 2009 OSL, to be clear).
As far as I can see, Midas went Rax FE against Kal in Winners League last year at the end of January. + Show Spoiler [VOD] +
UpMaGiC tried Rax FE a full year earlier, at the start of 2009, on a "standard" map (no back natural). On maps like Katrina, for example, he had tried weird Rax FEs after gas.
+ Show Spoiler [Note the commentators' surprise] +
There may be some, but I can't remember off the top of my head any "standard" Rax FEs in TvP before this one. However, the point is that they were isolated experiments, and Flash was the one to eventually set the trend.
Midas was also one of the first Terrans (again, if not the first - I need to check the dates and specific games) to transition into full mechanic after playing a textbook bionic early and mid-game in 2010.
And here, Fantasy's game was an isolated experiment, and Midas was the one to set the trend. Throughout 2010, Midas and Sea were the only Terrans reliably mech switching in most of their games.
For all of these things, Midas receives close to zero recognition. I have not even mentioned his powerful gameplay and impressive winning statistics during his prime.
If I have time, I will look up individual games and some well-written articles that emphasize some of Midas' unrecognized achievements.
I agree with you on this--Midas is the unsung SKT Terran. He's been very innovative, and I only wish he had been able to play more throughout 2009. I'm just glad he was finally able to find a place on FOX.
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Let's hope FOX doesn't disband ;;
But I'd say Kal or Zero. (Zero just showed he can have good zvz)
The other players, even when they were playing well, had at least one shaky match-up.
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I think you can argue that Zero or Sea is the better player... but Kal, hands down, has been most consistent in individual leagues without winning
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Sea, he's the reason I became an MBC fan/
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
I hope ZerO does win a starleague and gets out of that list anyway.
About Sea and Kal I don't think they actually have a chance to... Oh well maybe Kal has (but he needs to stop sucking and get out of slump T_T)
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Sea has massive fanbase and thus the poll is rigged. biased
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I remember everyone back in the day saying Light would smash everyone in training and get nerves... that must suck!!
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For their respective races, it's pretty clearly Jangbi, Zero, and Iris. Sorry Sea fans, but he was never expected to be good in individual leagues anyhow. These other three put up amazing performances in individual leagues and only Zero can be considered a choker moreso than someone who just ran into other players who were too amazing (and even Zero had the misfortune of running into Flash). Sea is clearly a choker in individual leagues.
If I had to choose one it'd be Jangbi -- 2 silvers and about an entire year of completely disrupting TBLS as arguably the best player of the five when he was at his best, and that's why I put Jangbi ahead of Kal for protoss. Kal's been pretty consistently good, but I don't look at him and go "how did he never win a league?" like I do Jangbi.
I put Iris over Midas because, while both of them had the misfortune of running into Savior, Iris pushed forward to make another final and just happened to run into a zerg who wouldn't be denied a title in GGplay (Same can be said for Jangbi and Luxury).
There are tons of zergs who have been more consistent/better than Zero over a long period of time, but they all happened to win titles. Zero may very be the next random great zerg to win a title in the vein of Effort/Calm/Luxury/Hydra (I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying there's a bunch of damn 1 title zergs around).
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On June 26 2011 19:50 WinTerPriNce wrote:
BISU BRO
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On May 17 2011 20:44 ~chut~ wrote:
Best was a PvT wonder, abusing your easy match-up can help you become an undeserving winner just like Casy. thanks to July, it didn't happen!
You... do realize that July abused his ZvP to win that OSL, right? He played Rock, BackHo and BeSt from the Ro8 forward.
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On June 26 2011 20:07 hellbound wrote:
Ehh it's true if you wan't to be picky about what a starleague is... Bisu hasn't won an OSL.
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On June 26 2011 21:53 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:07 hellbound wrote:On June 26 2011 19:50 WinTerPriNce wrote:
BISU BRO
Ehh it's true if you wan't to be picky about what a starleague is... Bisu hasn't won an OSL.
What does SL in MSL stand for?
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On June 26 2011 21:54 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 21:53 ShadeR wrote:On June 26 2011 20:07 hellbound wrote:On June 26 2011 19:50 WinTerPriNce wrote:
BISU BRO
Ehh it's true if you wan't to be picky about what a starleague is... Bisu hasn't won an OSL. What does SL in MSL stand for?
Starcraft League
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On June 26 2011 19:27 TwoToneTerran wrote:
For their respective races, it's pretty clearly Jangbi, Zero, and Iris. Sorry Sea fans, but he was never expected to be good in individual leagues anyhow. These other three put up amazing performances in individual leagues and only Zero can be considered a choker moreso than someone who just ran into other players who were too amazing (and even Zero had the misfortune of running into Flash). Sea is clearly a choker in individual leagues.
If I had to choose one it'd be Jangbi -- 2 silvers and about an entire year of completely disrupting TBLS as arguably the best player of the five when he was at his best, and that's why I put Jangbi ahead of Kal for protoss. Kal's been pretty consistently good, but I don't look at him and go "how did he never win a league?" like I do Jangbi.
I completely agree with this, only that if I had to choose one, it would be Iris. His game 5 against Savior and the epic series against GGPlay, he was just too damn close and better over a longer period of time in my opinion.
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WTF WHERE'S YELLOW.
Edit:
Nvm, actually read the thread.
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WTF Where's your ability to read the entire OP
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On June 26 2011 21:54 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 21:53 ShadeR wrote:On June 26 2011 20:07 hellbound wrote:On June 26 2011 19:50 WinTerPriNce wrote:
BISU BRO
Ehh it's true if you wan't to be picky about what a starleague is... Bisu hasn't won an OSL. What does SL in MSL stand for?
He's referring to the period when OGN trademarked/tried to trademark the term 'starleague,' so MBC couldn't use the word starleague for MSL.
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Why free get so little love =(
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I know it's just the semis but im getting ready to withdraw jangbi as the best to have NEVER won =]
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On August 30 2011 08:41 ShadeR wrote:
I know it's just the semis but im getting ready to withdraw jangbi as the best to have NEVER won =]
I really fear he'll get hydrabusted into oblivion :<
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It's Leta! He is one of the best team ace's of all time.
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So I am officially getting back to you about Killer :p
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OSL ro8 spolier: + Show Spoiler +Whoo!! 8% vote Jangbi might have a real shot (:
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Have BeSt and Sea ever played?
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On August 30 2011 09:29 DyEnasTy wrote:
Have BeSt and Sea ever played?
I saw one game where Sea forward rax against 12 nex. Long ass game, but Best was always going to lose, which he did.
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Just wanted to say, of all the people I expected to have a shot of graduating from this poll and being in another SL final...
+ Show Spoiler +JANGBI WAS NOT IT.
Requoting my own stat:
"From August 1 2010 to May 1 2011, Jangbi compiled an incomprehensible 25.64% record."
Go Jangbi.
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best and jangbi. these guys dominated hardcore when at the top there game with some amazing seasons/months/weeks
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The thing about players who have PROVEN themselves great in the past is that they can always slip back in there. Sometimes they just tease at it, but sometimes they really do it.
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Hwasin, Iris, Midas and Sea.
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Iris and Midas stuck out to me, I'm super surprised with Sea, he never went ANYWHERE in the leagues...
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Definitely Midas.
Guy was only stopped by Savior. Sea choked 50 million times and was a perennial Starleague loser. Differs from someone like Hwasin in that Hwasin actually lost to the eventual winner most of the time.
Yellow sucks. Forever second rate noob.
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jangbi, one of the dragons
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On September 14 2011 06:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
YellOw....
Said best "ACTIVE" player .
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Really, since he so recently retired. The guy was actually one of the best professional terrans.
Sea, Light and Free are the best to never have won one. I'd pick Sea out of that list, but all are equally good and consistent.
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BERSERKER! Sadly, it is pretty sure he will never get one :/
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These players really... well really there are good reasons you can think of that they haven't won something. Kal is my gut choice though my brain would have me choose Zero who has shown some absolutely gorgeous play though my heart will never forget Jangbi's storms and play at his best.
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I just feel sorry for Midas when remembering his games vs savior
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I feel that Light is the one who's missing a title the most. Midas could come close but he pretty much disappeared for so long after his prime.
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Jangbi will win one soon *nods*
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Jangbi! Oops, sorry, not valid anymore.
So I'll go for Hiya!!
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Sea will never win a starleague
Its the way he is =)
Go Jangbi !!!!
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Where's Bisu? Bisu's never won any starleagues.
just a heads up, MSL = MBCGame Starcraft League right?
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I definitely throw in a vote for Iris. Guy was seriously so close to winning multiple times and played great great games. If he didn't throw that series v Kwanro... -_________-.
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Soo. lol jk
Bisu ofc. OSL is his waterloo
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I think it's Kal. In terms of skill for that brief time he was right up there with JD, Flash, Bisu. Not saying he was better than them but he had a decent shot at it.
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jangbi gets off this list this week
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On September 14 2011 09:11 stork4ever wrote:
jangbi gets off this list this week
I'm hoping for this so I can take him off the OP. Go Jangbi.
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On September 14 2011 06:41 FabledIntegral wrote:Said best "ACTIVE" player .
iris/midas/hwasin
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Best/Jangbi/Midas
BeSt was so dominant in PvP for a few months and then got destroyed by July. Jangbi is the last of the kong line in BW, but he's been such a solid player over the years. Midas was suppose to continue the SKTerran dominance but then sAviOr showed up.
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On May 15 2011 15:47 Nick_54 wrote:
Jangbi, as good as Sea was in proleague he's never been an individual league player. Sea might be the best player to have never made a semifinal but thats about it.
Jangbi was the second best dragon for a while. He was dominating left and right, but Bisu and somewhat weak pvz held him back.
Nostradamus here
Hopefully Jangbi can get his name off the list in a few days. He really was a spectacular player and is showing that he still is.
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On September 14 2011 13:22 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 15:47 Nick_54 wrote:
Jangbi, as good as Sea was in proleague he's never been an individual league player. Sea might be the best player to have never made a semifinal but thats about it.
Jangbi was the second best dragon for a while. He was dominating left and right, but Bisu and somewhat weak pvz held him back. Nostradamus here Hopefully Jangbi can get his name off the list in a few days. He really was a spectacular player and is showing that he still is.
Nothing you said predicted anything
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when i first saw this thread i thought of bisu...because i was under the impression that msl doesnt count as a "starleague"
but if op was talking about individual tourneys in general id have to agree that jangbi and sea are the unlucky ones
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On September 14 2011 08:54 Raii wrote:Where's Bisu? Bisu's never won any starleagues. just a heads up, MSL = MBCGame Starcraft League right?
On TL, MSL is generally called a "Starleague" as well, even though the OSL is the one "true" starleague name-wise and reputation-wise (Koreans only think about the OSL too, when talking about starleagues).
Regarding the actual topic: First voted for Kal, then realized I'd have rather voted for free (that lategame PvZ!).
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MSL used to be a Starleague but changed it to Starcraft League after the OSL trademarked the name
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On September 14 2011 17:46 a11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 08:54 Raii wrote:Where's Bisu? Bisu's never won any starleagues. just a heads up, MSL = MBCGame Starcraft League right? On TL, MSL is generally called a "Starleague" as well, even though the OSL is the one "true" starleague name-wise and reputation-wise (Koreans only think about the OSL too, when talking about starleagues). Regarding the actual topic: First voted for Kal, then realized I'd have rather voted for free (that lategame PvZ!).
But on the contrary, his lategame PvP is lol. -____-
Still would have voted ZerO, no matter what. Ok Jangbi is nice, but lets see where he will be next season. ZerO is stable for much time already. And 2 consecutive semifinals of a Starleague. And good performance in SPL. And no particularly weak match-ups as for now (I think we all seen his ZvZ...) And no tendency to choke hard against top players (ok he 0-3 to Flash in theMSL finals, but it's Flash. Plus he won an ace match vs. Flash in the spl play-offs). The big reason to be disappointed is that the next MSL for which he is insta-qualified may not happen. :-\
I think he is the closest to TaekBangJungLeeSsang (who have all won at least 1 starleague) in terms of consistency.
lol 4000th post for the Swarm! It's been spent on the right purpose \m/_
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On September 14 2011 19:05 Sawamura wrote:
Calm ?
Calm already won a MSL over Kwanro.
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On September 14 2011 19:07 antzilla wrote:Calm already won a MSL over Kwanro.
My bad , I will change my choice to HoeJJa than .
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LOL, had a feeling that this thread was gonna get bumped 
I'll still feel it would be Jangbi or Midas....
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I'd like ZerO or Leta to win it someday
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On September 14 2011 19:05 Sawamura wrote:
Calm ?
Look at the title more carefully, it doesn't say: The most undeserving starleague champion:-))
p.s. Partially just kidding
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On September 14 2011 19:02 ThugTerran wrote:
Where is Yellow? ^^
Mentioned in the OP:
READ: You'll notice I purposely left out (Z)one very important person. This is because I cannot bear to let this person become #1 on a poll, which I know will happen. And as an eternal SCBW fan, I can't let that happen, can I?
Reading is hard...
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On September 14 2011 21:51 M2 wrote:Look at the title more carefully, it doesn't say: The most undeserving starleague champion:-)) p.s. Partially just kidding
Casy is the most undeserving champion, imo. Calm is is on par with Mind and forGG.
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On September 14 2011 22:25 villageidiot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 21:51 M2 wrote:On September 14 2011 19:05 Sawamura wrote:
Calm ? Look at the title more carefully, it doesn't say: The most undeserving starleague champion:-)) p.s. Partially just kidding Casy is the most undeserving champion, imo. Calm is is on par with Mind and forGG.
How the hell did Mind and fOrGG not deserve their titles? Seriously, fOrGG went through Sea, Kal, Flash and Jaedong with the latter two in Bo5 wins. Calm also beat Jaedong in a ZvZ Bo5. If anything the only "undeserving" champions (if there even is such a thing) would be Luxury and July's 3rd OSL.
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I'd actually argue that fOrGG is the most deserving MSL champion. He beat Kal (previous season's Silver winner and a top Toss), Flash, and Jaedong. How the hell is that undeserved? He never made it past a Ro8 since then until he retired, but what's that have to do with his run? Perhaps he can get most disappointing career post-SL win (although a couple Ro8s isn't terrible) but his run was golden and well deserved.
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On September 14 2011 22:33 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:25 villageidiot wrote:On September 14 2011 21:51 M2 wrote:On September 14 2011 19:05 Sawamura wrote:
Calm ? Look at the title more carefully, it doesn't say: The most undeserving starleague champion:-)) p.s. Partially just kidding Casy is the most undeserving champion, imo. Calm is is on par with Mind and forGG. How the hell did Mind and fOrGG not deserve their titles? Seriously, fOrGG went through Sea, Kal, Flash and Jaedong with the latter two in Bo5 wins. Calm also beat Jaedong in a ZvZ Bo5. If anything the only "undeserving" champions (if there even is such a thing) would be Luxury and July's 3rd OSL.
I didn't say that Calm is unworthy, I just compared him with time attackers.
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i feel that jangbi is the most deserving. reaching to finals twice if im not wrong. really hope he wins the osl.
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Leta or Baby imo. When they are on top of their game, they are frightening.
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On September 14 2011 22:33 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:25 villageidiot wrote:On September 14 2011 21:51 M2 wrote:On September 14 2011 19:05 Sawamura wrote:
Calm ? Look at the title more carefully, it doesn't say: The most undeserving starleague champion:-)) p.s. Partially just kidding Casy is the most undeserving champion, imo. Calm is is on par with Mind and forGG. How the hell did Mind and fOrGG not deserve their titles? Seriously, fOrGG went through Sea, Kal, Flash and Jaedong with the latter two in Bo5 wins. Calm also beat Jaedong in a ZvZ Bo5. If anything the only "undeserving" champions (if there even is such a thing) would be Luxury and July's 3rd OSL.
julys 3rd osl is one of the greatest osl victories ever july totally deserved that golden mouse
casy was sick he was just really bad at tvp
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If I vote Jangbi, does that mean I'm jinxing?
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Jangbi made the MSL final in November 2008, the GSL final in February 2009, and the next MSL final in March 2009. Obviously the GOM Tournament is less prestigious due to not every team participating, but you can see how far he was capable of going in his prime.
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Not counting YellOw, I'd say either Sea or Jangbi but it's quite hard.
Voted on Sea.
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Im going with Kal because he's had some bad luck with the draw.
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still have trouble believing Iris isn't mentioned in the op
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me obviously, it would be unfair if i traveled to korea and owned everyone ezpz blindfolded 1 hand, they don't deserve that kind of humiliation,so i just play d- players to keep the low profile ;D
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On May 15 2011 06:44 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Then you have people like Light and Best, who would have easily won a title (or more) by now if they didn't have to play their race's weak matchup (TvP and PvZ). Light's TvZ is and Best's PvT are unstoppable, but their TvP and PvZ matchups respectively are just awful. Its funny how Light is 3-0 vs Jaedong this season yet has a loosing record vs Perfectman lol.
Is Perfectman really that bad? Isn't Backho worse?
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really wish chojja won an osl.....love that guy
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On September 14 2011 22:33 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:25 villageidiot wrote:On September 14 2011 21:51 M2 wrote:On September 14 2011 19:05 Sawamura wrote:
Calm ? Look at the title more carefully, it doesn't say: The most undeserving starleague champion:-)) p.s. Partially just kidding Casy is the most undeserving champion, imo. Calm is is on par with Mind and forGG. How the hell did Mind and fOrGG not deserve their titles? Seriously, fOrGG went through Sea, Kal, Flash and Jaedong with the latter two in Bo5 wins. Calm also beat Jaedong in a ZvZ Bo5. If anything the only "undeserving" champions (if there even is such a thing) would be Luxury and July's 3rd OSL.
Hey now dont be throwing punches at july his ZVP stood the test of time and he definatly deserved that golden mouse, Not sure if u know how long julyzerg was top of BW for definatly a bonjwa of the oldschool starcraft.
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On September 15 2011 04:41 ppshchik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 06:44 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Then you have people like Light and Best, who would have easily won a title (or more) by now if they didn't have to play their race's weak matchup (TvP and PvZ). Light's TvZ is and Best's PvT are unstoppable, but their TvP and PvZ matchups respectively are just awful. Its funny how Light is 3-0 vs Jaedong this season yet has a loosing record vs Perfectman lol.
Is Perfectman really that bad? Isn't Backho worse?
Just gotta ask, how come every single person I ever meet spells "lose" with two O's? -.-
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On September 15 2011 05:01 HaXXspetten wrote:
Just gotta ask, how come every single person I ever meet spells "lose" with two O's? -.-
Almost everyone will written 'lose' with just one O. But in the form 'losing' it seems very weird (like something is missing), so they add additional o there. And almost always you mean just one o there .
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On September 15 2011 05:04 zlosynus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 05:01 HaXXspetten wrote:
Just gotta ask, how come every single person I ever meet spells "lose" with two O's? -.- Almost everyone will written 'lose' with just one O. But in the form 'losing' it seems very weird (like something is missing), so they add additional o there. And almost always you mean just one o there .
Kinda weird to spell "losing" as "loosing," IMO.
I kinda infer that "losing" means to lose, whereas "loosing" means to loose.
A quick Google search of "loosing" reveals the definition:
loosingpresent participle of loose (Verb)
1. Set free; release: "the hounds have been loosed".
2. Untie; unfasten: "the ropes were loosed".
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Jangbi doesn't deserve it anymore. His debut was incredible, but it only lasted until his MSL final against Bisu. Midas, Light, Leta, FBH, etc, all probably deserve a title. They were all incredible players in their hey day (some still are).
But still, Sea is definitely takes the top spot. He's just never had that string of luck you need to make it through to the trophy. He's got everything else.
On September 15 2011 05:11 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 05:04 zlosynus wrote:On September 15 2011 05:01 HaXXspetten wrote:
Just gotta ask, how come every single person I ever meet spells "lose" with two O's? -.- Almost everyone will written 'lose' with just one O. But in the form 'losing' it seems very weird (like something is missing), so they add additional o there. And almost always you mean just one o there . Kinda weird to spell "losing" as "loosing," IMO. I kinda infer that "losing" means to lose, whereas "loosing" means to loose. A quick Google search of "loosing" reveals the definition: Show nested quote +loosingpresent participle of loose (Verb)
1. Set free; release: "the hounds have been loosed".
2. Untie; unfasten: "the ropes were loosed".
It's not just weird, it's wrong.
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On September 15 2011 05:11 eviltomahawk wrote:Kinda weird to spell "losing" as "loosing," IMO. I kinda infer that "losing" means to lose, whereas "loosing" means to loose. A quick Google search of "loosing" reveals the definition: Show nested quote +loosingpresent participle of loose (Verb)
1. Set free; release: "the hounds have been loosed".
2. Untie; unfasten: "the ropes were loosed".
Ya, but you are native speaker (probably). I was making this mistake some time ago, too. But then my friend told me about it. I can't explain why losing seems weird. Of course, loosing means something else.
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On September 15 2011 05:25 PH wrote:Jangbi doesn't deserve it anymore. His debut was incredible, but it only lasted until his MSL final against Bisu. Midas, Light, Leta, FBH, etc, all probably deserve a title. They were all incredible players in their hey day (some still are). But still, Sea is definitely takes the top spot. He's just never had that string of luck you need to make it through to the trophy. He's got everything else. Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 05:11 eviltomahawk wrote:On September 15 2011 05:04 zlosynus wrote:On September 15 2011 05:01 HaXXspetten wrote:
Just gotta ask, how come every single person I ever meet spells "lose" with two O's? -.- Almost everyone will written 'lose' with just one O. But in the form 'losing' it seems very weird (like something is missing), so they add additional o there. And almost always you mean just one o there . Kinda weird to spell "losing" as "loosing," IMO. I kinda infer that "losing" means to lose, whereas "loosing" means to loose. A quick Google search of "loosing" reveals the definition: loosingpresent participle of loose (Verb)
1. Set free; release: "the hounds have been loosed".
2. Untie; unfasten: "the ropes were loosed". It's not just weird, it's wrong.
Yeah, Jangbi lacks to consistency to get the title of best without a title, barring him losing this OSL and following it up with another monster streak. However, there's nothing that can be said about Sea or Light that can't be said and more about Iris (in his heyday). Leta and Iris, however, are pretty much even. Amazing players that have taken some tough losses, though I give the edge to Iris both due to personal bias (he is my favourite terran all time), and the fact that he seems to be more affected by living in the shadow of monsters (playing in the era of Oov and Savior isn't an easy feat) while Leta, as far as I've seen, Ends up beating himself more often than he is blocked by his equivalent to Oov and Savior in Flash and Jaedong. I could absolutely be wrong, I have a bit of rose colored glasses and due to how I followed the scene, I definitely saw more of Iris's good than bad back in 2005.
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well i wanted to vote jangbi since he' s on a roll right now but i think sea is most consistant
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It's just sad that Sea has never won...he's appeared in so many Ro16s, yet has been so unlucky all the time. I'd say he'd be one of the best players never to have won a Starleague.
.
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I always thought Zero was the best player to have never won anything and then he wins a 2nd. Which is good enough for me x)
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the answer is definitely not sea (iirc he only got 1 ro8 in starleagues during his whole career)
jangbi is probably better than everbody because basically in finals he run into a rampaging bisu or luxury who played some of best zvp ever in history at that final
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i always wanted to see fbh win a title... but jangbi deserves the vote as well.. at least for now
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I always wanted FBH to win a big 1v1 title...just so I could see what kind of victory dance he would pull out. We all know he would!
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i read the op and my answer is still and always will be yellow, (u never know he could come back and rape the entire tournament)...
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On September 15 2011 09:35 cristo1122 wrote:
i read the op and my answer is still and always will be yellow, (u never know he could come back and rape the entire tournament)...
Nah he'll get bunker rushed in the first ZvT he plays xD
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Well, since on TL the MSL counts as a SL, then Bisu's out of my choices then lol
As for the topic, I think YellOw [silver surfer + the only guy I've seen keep up with Boxer at the time],
Midas [successor to the SKTerran throne], and Sea [former destroyer of PL]
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How is Kwanro not on this list =/.
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On September 16 2011 11:04 ZeaL. wrote:
How is Kwanro not on this list =/.
Not sure if serious.
As epic as a good Kwanrolling was, are you for real?
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On September 16 2011 12:10 Crisium wrote:Not sure if serious. As epic as a good Kwanrolling was, are you for real?
well, he did have a BO win against calm in their final so he was soooo close to winning. But he isn't what i would call a "best player"
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fuck kwanro, he ruined Iris' Avalon MSL run
Iris should have won that tournament, after the awesome ro8 series against Bisu and being up 2-0 against Kwanro in the ro4 He would have rolled Calm in the finals.
Back to the question at hand, the candidates that stand out to me are Midas, Iris, Sea, and Kal. All the other players have/had a weak matchup, even in their primes. Not that having a weak matchup means you can't win a league(sup Casy), but it puts a bracket luck factor in there.
I would have listed JangBi along with those four, but his time is now
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On September 16 2011 12:20 Gann1 wrote:fuck kwanro, he ruined Iris' Avalon MSL run Iris should have won that tournament, after the awesome ro8 series against Bisu and being up 2-0 against Kwanro in the ro4 He would have rolled Calm in the finals. Back to the question at hand, the candidates that stand out to me are Midas, Iris, Sea, and Kal. All the other players have/had a weak matchup, even in their primes. Not that having a weak matchup means you can't win a league(sup Casy), but it puts a bracket luck factor in there. I would have listed JangBi along with those four, but his time is now
sorry but calm would of crushed iris . he had a 67% winning percentage in 2009 (with over 120 games played that year) and was 63% vs Terran (including vs players like flash (in a Bo5), light, fantasy, and forgg). Calm might not be as great today but he was a fucking badass in 2009.
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On September 16 2011 12:20 Gann1 wrote:fuck kwanro, he ruined Iris' Avalon MSL run Iris should have won that tournament, after the awesome ro8 series against Bisu and being up 2-0 against Kwanro in the ro4 He would have rolled Calm in the finals. Back to the question at hand, the candidates that stand out to me are Midas, Iris, Sea, and Kal. All the other players have/had a weak matchup, even in their primes. Not that having a weak matchup means you can't win a league(sup Casy), but it puts a bracket luck factor in there. I would have listed JangBi along with those four, but his time is now
2009 was the reason he got the nickname "brain zerg" He would've won handily against iris.
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Soon Jangbi will no longer be on this list ;D
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Calm(Mascara zerg) will rise again I believe ...
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 16 2011 13:48 synapse wrote:
Soon Jangbi will no longer be on this list ;D ! edit: scusi
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On September 17 2011 21:37 pvzvt wrote:+ Show Spoiler + hmmmmm we need to update the list
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+ Show Spoiler +Sorry but this thread is spoiler by itself. Anyway, congrats to Jangbang!
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+ Show Spoiler +the bump is a spoiler. im just spoilering this too out of courtesy.
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On September 16 2011 12:17 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:10 Crisium wrote:On September 16 2011 11:04 ZeaL. wrote:
How is Kwanro not on this list =/. Not sure if serious. As epic as a good Kwanrolling was, are you for real? well, he did have a BO win against calm in their final so he was soooo close to winning. But he isn't what i would call a "best player"
Lol, that final was the lamest finals ever. Didn't even bother with the finals.
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+ Show Spoiler +The bump isn't really a spoiler, I could easily see someone posting in here going all ''Damnit, Jangbi will have to remain on that list. T_T''
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On September 16 2011 12:17 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:10 Crisium wrote:On September 16 2011 11:04 ZeaL. wrote:
How is Kwanro not on this list =/. Not sure if serious. As epic as a good Kwanrolling was, are you for real? well, he did have a BO win against calm in their final so he was soooo close to winning. But he isn't what i would call a "best player"
He also has the distinction of being maybe the only player to ever lose a 4pool vs 12hatch.
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On September 17 2011 22:09 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:17 Release wrote:On September 16 2011 12:10 Crisium wrote:On September 16 2011 11:04 ZeaL. wrote:
How is Kwanro not on this list =/. Not sure if serious. As epic as a good Kwanrolling was, are you for real? well, he did have a BO win against calm in their final so he was soooo close to winning. But he isn't what i would call a "best player" He also has the distinction of being maybe the only player to ever lose a 4pool vs 12hatch.
Well.... Calm managed to cancel his nat, and he did a brilliant drone block. I'm not so sure 4pool actually wins in that case.
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Officially retracting Jangbi.
Iris and Midas.
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On September 17 2011 22:23 ShadeR wrote:
Officially retracting Jangbi.
Iris and Midas.
Over Sea?
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On September 17 2011 22:39 fortheGG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 22:23 ShadeR wrote:
Officially retracting Jangbi.
Iris and Midas. Over Sea?
In starleague play, no question what so ever.
IMO, you're not a complete player if your success is mostly limited to half the leagues.
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On September 15 2011 04:53 UkGracken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:33 writer22816 wrote:On September 14 2011 22:25 villageidiot wrote:On September 14 2011 21:51 M2 wrote:On September 14 2011 19:05 Sawamura wrote:
Calm ? Look at the title more carefully, it doesn't say: The most undeserving starleague champion:-)) p.s. Partially just kidding Casy is the most undeserving champion, imo. Calm is is on par with Mind and forGG. How the hell did Mind and fOrGG not deserve their titles? Seriously, fOrGG went through Sea, Kal, Flash and Jaedong with the latter two in Bo5 wins. Calm also beat Jaedong in a ZvZ Bo5. If anything the only "undeserving" champions (if there even is such a thing) would be Luxury and July's 3rd OSL. Hey now dont be throwing punches at july his ZVP stood the test of time and he definatly deserved that golden mouse, Not sure if u know how long julyzerg was top of BW for definatly a bonjwa of the oldschool starcraft.
great job calling me out, yes I am well aware of July's history in BW. But put aside your biases and think with your head. Do you even know what July's OSL road was? Let me remind you:
Rock --> Backho --> Best
definitely one of the easiest OSL wins ever, July is awesome but he really got off easy that time.
Oh and + Show Spoiler +JangBi 3-2 Fantasy
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Best was no PvZ slouch at the time, having beaten Luxury 3-2 in the semis. I'd say that July's road TO the final was probably the easiest ever though.
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Definitely Midas and Iris over Jangbi now
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Jangbi is reading this thread now and laughing.
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On September 17 2011 22:07 Holgerius wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The bump isn't really a spoiler, I could easily see someone posting in here going all ''Damnit, Jangbi will have to remain on that list. T_T''
people complain too much about spoilers. maybe we should just stop posting anything a few days after any game to avoid spoilers?
nah bobba that lol
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On September 18 2011 00:23 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 22:07 Holgerius wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The bump isn't really a spoiler, I could easily see someone posting in here going all ''Damnit, Jangbi will have to remain on that list. T_T'' people complain too much about spoilers. maybe we should just stop posting anything a few days after any game to avoid spoilers? nah bobba that lol
Or how about people who haven't watch the finals stop reading threads in the BW section. Maybe that would be a logical thing to do to avoid spoilers.
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NO NEED TO SPOILER ANYMORE.
If anyone misses the big bold underlined notice at the top of the OP, they DESERVE to be spoiled.
LEGEND OF THE FALL!!!!!
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great job calling me out, yes I am well aware of July's history in BW. But put aside your biases and think with your head. Do you even know what July's OSL road was? Let me remind you: Rock --> Backho --> Best definitely one of the easiest OSL wins ever, July is awesome but he really got off easy that time. Oh and + Show Spoiler +JangBi 3-2 Fantasy
easiest? debatable, but most trollish? yes.
"experts": "Best is the new generation, July's Cinderella run ends here, Best's macro is too much"
July Game One: "you are right, better 4-5 pool" easy win
"experts" CHEESE only way to win"
start of game 2:
"experts": "look at best playing more conservative! going to be a standard game"
July: "macro? ORLY???"
***mind games the crap out of Best*** DRONE DRILL
game 3:
"experts": "looks like July is just going to cheese it out, best still got the best macro in the game
July: "ORLY"
***macro to a dozen ultras and guardians***
July: "Don't worry Bisu, I will use my winnings to get your some plastic surgery to fix that gaping mouth problem you are having."
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EPT
