On May 07 2011 18:50 TheOnly92 wrote: This build is too evil, it should really be banned.
On May 07 2011 18:50 PoP wrote: Wow. Just wow at this build. The execution was far from perfect but still, such a perfectly prepared game.
On May 07 2011 18:51 konadora wrote: yeah, his mechanics was sloppy but this build... insane.
On May 07 2011 18:51 GTR wrote: so i heard oov was lurking around the khan house recently.
On May 07 2011 18:52 Malinor wrote: That was the most abusive strategie I have ever seen
Alright. Let's see what happened here (in the absence of the VOD, let me do this from memory, please correct if I recalled incorrectly).
VOD
The Build Proxy 8 rax > Vulture Harass > Wraiths > Vulture Drops > Cloak Wraiths > Valkeries > MM > Tank
Proxy 8 Rax Like all proxies, this one was meant to create early commotion and disrupt JD's economy, and very hopefully, end the game if not addressed correctly (a remote fact vs JD). JD missed it on his way to scout, and find out only upon reaching Reality base - no Barracks. JD pulls @8 drones, finds the Barracks, and kills the proxy marines. But his success here came at a high cost. He lost significant amount of mining time (helped by Reality's smart luring out of drones long after the initial threat has been contained), thereby delaying his pool.
Vulture harass As soon as JD tried to settle to his natural, a vultures comes in for harass. JD pulls drones on roids again and overwhelms the vulture. But the real damage has been done, more lost mining time.
Fast Wraith At this point, JD has terrible economy, still at pool tech and needs to get greedy fast in order to hope for a comeback. Wraiths were the perfect units at this point and it showed why: the wraiths wrecked havoc on JD's fledgling economy, and jumps from one hatchery to another to snipe overlords, more drones, and anything caught in between.
Vulture Drops Here JD has already a decent ground army, enough to nullify and straight up encounter. Reality channeled Fantasy and went for vulture drops to further cripple JD's economy.
Cloaked Wraiths This is where Reality's brilliance was now unquestionable. JD was surely going for a counter now, and cloaked wraiths provided the perfect counter to keep the mutalisks at bay.
Valkyries Reality had to push for the finish now, and the only thing stopping his cloaked Wraiths are mutalisks and overlords. This is where the Valkyries come into play.
MM Having neutralized all the major stumbling blocks for the kill, reality resorts to fast and high dps units to seal the deal
Tanks This is just to make sure that the game is truly over.
The genius of the build lies in how natural it seems. One phase transitioned smoothly into the next, and each has a specific function in the grand purpose of the build. The transitions were not only natural in terms of their purpose, but also in terms of the tech path and economy that it took. From the start - the proxy rax, one can see the malicious intent of the build. The rax phase was not overdone. Once it served its purpose, it gave way to the next phase. We can argue that JD overreacted and pulled too many drones for too long, but then again, this must have seemed a "weird" build, and all cautin had to be taken. Major props to Reality for dragging those drones farther than they had to. This is followed by fast vultures, only 2 or 3 if i remember right. This was meant to further delay economy, lair, and eventually mutalisks. Reality went for expo and starport.
At this point, Reality knows that he has spread himself too thinly, and does not have a strong army to effectively stop JD`s counter if he kept him undisturbed even for a moment. This are what the starport tech is for. It is meant to keep JD at bay a bit by sniping overlords, drones, and expansions. Moreover, it paved the way for later tech that will deal the more decisive blow: first, the unexpected Vulture drop that stopped mining at the main for a considerable amount of time, and later the brilliant cloak the saved Reality from what would have been a hard counter to his little party so far. We say saved here more in the active sense because clearly it was all part of the plan. We could argue that fortune played right into the arms of Reality when JD went for mutalisks instead of lurkers. But looking at the game from JD's point of view, his economy and game flow was already in shambles by then that he needed a decisive attack to stop Reality once and for all. There is only so much aggressiveness you can do with lurkers, especially before Hive.
Still, Jeadong was on 4 bases now. Reality knows better than to let someone like JD to reorganize and take advantage of the little mistakes that he is making. The Valkyrie escort was meant to do such thing - nullify JD's mutalisks and cap his supply. The game was practically over at this point. JD was all over the place defending all sorts and manner of harass, but, wraiths are not meant to be game enders. More over, Reality has invested so much on specific techs, reaching as far as cloak and armory that he does not have enough to mass a particular high tech unit. Hence the Barracks squad were sent - easily reproductible high damage units that, along with the tank, were sent to deal the final blow and finish the limping zerg.
In short, it is a build that is meant to sow chaos and confusion. The tech path is designed to snipe any meaningful reaction that can be summoned by zerg. It is meticulously prepared, and complicated, in the sense that it took disparate units to orchestrate a grand singular purpose. One slip in the transition and it would have looked as though JD was smurfing in ICCup D-level. But it is also so simple that it is elegant - it "simply" relied on the precise (like mathematically precise) timings of the units and available technology. Until the very end, JD seems still poised to hold it off quite decently, but the build is so unpredictable that JD was forced to go for mutalisks to hopefully end the game. By eng-game, JD was completely confused, predicting a mechanic transition and going for hydras, when Reality intended to finish it with bionic. It abused to optimum terran technology - proxy building, raiding vultures, drops, cloak, high-dps low-econ tier 1 units.
Two things favored this favored this build. One, it is fresh. Now that it's out, it won't be as easy to pull off next time. Second, Monte Cristo. the distance between bases is far enough that a terran with a well-practiced build, and sufficient harass, can count on not being countered easily. Something can be said about Reality's execution (imagine it in the hands of Flash, or, perhaps Fantasy), but we've got to hand it to this kid! He should brilliance and heart - which is highlighted even more in their next set. Of course, we saw what happened: JD took off his jacket, went war mode, and we all knew how it ended.
Again, it boggles the mind, paralyzes it, renders it impoverished of the faculty of logic, that 12 years after this game was created, one would expect that everything has been figured out already. Yet we have magnificence like the one we all witness today. BW4LYF <3
This build was more ridiculous than JD's new dye job.
I mean the transitions seemed so smooth even though I thought he was just throwing every thing he could afford at JD to make up for his supposedly failed proxy rax.
On May 07 2011 22:55 konadora wrote: one important thing you missed was the timing of the expo ^_^
You are correct. Im quesy to add it yet since I didn't catch it live with certainty. I'll edit in once the vods on the link you sent me are up already. Thanks
When Reality went from Vultures to Wraith, JD hasn't even get to lair. He was busy dealing with vultures so he was supposed to pile up ground units to counter. So the transition to Wraith is seriously surprising to JD, if I recall correctly, he has only zerglings and ... drones. When the first wraith came JD couldn't do anything but keep losing units (overlords and drones).
I will clarify some things according to how I see them.
Usually in this situation, lurkers are not an option as an opener. Although Jaedong's first drone scout missed the barracks, when it got to Reality's base, the important thing it spotted besides a missing barracks (indicating a rush) was that Reality had taken gas. It'd be very weird to open lurkers having scouted that T was teching. Firstly because it wouldn't be clear whether wraiths or mech were coming, and even if it were mech, it's really rare to open lurker against a meching T since like 2006 (when you could sometimes 1base 3fact mech push and only have one scanner on one CC). You can add a den (sometimes blind, but Jaedong added his after seeing wraiths I think) while you go mutas to be safer.
You can also go hydras instead of muta and exploit the T being on one base production, but this is probably not smart when you yourself are only on 2 hatcheries. I think if JD had managed his reaction to the initial rush better (the aggression is awesome to watch, but in the end he lost so much mining time - it was like a vicious cycle, the longer he kept his drones out, the later his pool was and so the longer he had to use drones to defend) he could have gone into the midgame with 3 hatcheries. A point in favor of just massing speed hydras is that Reality didn't really mine up that much; rather, he used the length of the map as a deterrent while he used mines to try to make JD lose control of his main.
Going for speed hydras/OL speed off 3 hatch puts the game in a different direction than 2 hatch muta. I don't know what you're supposed to do after going for muta. If you go hydra, you just get caught with your pants down by M&M/valk/wraith (M&M kills OL so even if you scourge valks you can't kill wraiths, the build is so well-crafted). At that point you wish you had gone for lurks, but you can't really go lurk and muta because you'll be gas poor, and if you go lurk instead of muta earlier, I just think it's a bad decision when you don't know the enemy's tech path. I'm not really looking far ahead, maybe you could respond with lurker/defiler. Playing for a real econ is tough because T uses units that give huge map control. Even if you have lurks, when the valks force your mutas back, they will just get scanned and killed by marines. I really think you need the third hatch to be safe, otherwise you are playing rock/paper/scissors and while you might crush 2port wraith, this build ruins you.
This build really needs a name - something like "The Kitchen Sink" or "The Everything Rush"
Everything in it just fit together so perfectly, with reality seamlessly transitioning to the next level of harassment. A brilliant cheese build, and even though i was rooting for Jaedong the game was a pleasure to watch.
I was a Reality fan before, having overlooked his career in KHAN the last half year, but this set made me a Reality fanboy. His game against Clam was impressive too, and his TvT/P is just so solid that he doesn't even need shenanigans like this. I'm pretty sure Reality will be the next Fantasy. Maybe he can even be better than that.
The Reality Check Build "T-RAPE" Build. (Terran Rape, Trap/Rape)
And for all the noobs who will now try it, it will be called: The Troll Build. I'm so happy I'm not a Zerg.
When JD came in with the mutas for the first time and Reality had just gotten his expo up I was like ''Cheese failed, you're dead kid''. Then the cloaked wraiths came. Man, that was so cool. Such a nice transition that enabled him to get his expo up pretty safely.
I am official switching to Terran when I feel the need to be very annoying. Also if for some reason this build fails don't forget to lift off into a corner.
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
We can now add a quote from the dong himself about this build: "I have somewhat expected him to cheese, but it was much worse than I expected." (from the interview)
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Because Terran players that can't play a straight up game will use it. Like Leta for example.
Great players like Flash are too boss for such gimmicks.
Lolwatusayin
What the hell, did you watch flash vs GGaemo today? Just because it isn't early all in flash uses semi cheeses constantly (14cc valk mnm build vs JD on Odd-eye, GoltankMnM vs Jd on polaris rhapsody and vs GGaemo and vs Hoejja on Garden of God (look on GOMTV.net for this one)).
Back on topic; Man this build is so... fucking abusive lmao, cant wait for the VOD. I am curious if we have seen a "total counter" to a 12 hatch, since a 9overpool would really denie it good wouldnt it..?
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
Thank you for saving the universe from the pejorative usage of gay. If not for you, he would never have completely overhauled his vocabulary, recanted his statement, and become a gay rights activist.
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
Thank you for saving the universe from the pejorative usage of gay. If not for you, he would never have completely overhauled his vocabulary, recanted his statement, and become a gay rights activist.
It's wrong, and people will keep doing it until they come to understand it as unacceptable. If someone referred to a Korean as a "gook" on this forum, people would be all over them, and rightly so. Why should the reaction to other forms of hate speech be any different?
On May 07 2011 23:28 deafhobbit wrote: This build really needs a name - something like "The Kitchen Sink" or "The Everything Rush"
I'd rather call it "the Reality Check" or something similarly apropos. When I open that LR thread, I want to see stuff like, "Uh oh, Shine's about to get a heavy dose of reality" or "Time for a reality check, Action!"
Edit: Also, "Roro better scout this soon.. Shit's about to get real." Okay, that's a stretch.
On May 08 2011 01:30 dronescout wrote: I am official switching to Terran when I feel the need to be very annoying. Also if for some reason this build fails don't forget to lift off into a corner.
Agreed.. the lift into a corner + alt tab follow up is some of the worst shit to deal with on iccup.. maybe not as bad as this though :p
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
Thank you for saving the universe from the pejorative usage of gay. If not for you, he would never have completely overhauled his vocabulary, recanted his statement, and become a gay rights activist.
It's wrong, and people will keep doing it until they come to understand it as unacceptable. If someone referred to a Korean as a "gook" on this forum, people would be all over them, and rightly so. Why should the reaction to other forms of hate speech be any different?
Your posts accomplish nothing and start unproductive discussion. I am not defending the usage. Only the response. If you really feel that strongly, PM him. If you need to respond to this, PM me.
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
Thank you for saving the universe from the pejorative usage of gay. If not for you, he would never have completely overhauled his vocabulary, recanted his statement, and become a gay rights activist.
It's wrong, and people will keep doing it until they come to understand it as unacceptable. If someone referred to a Korean as a "gook" on this forum, people would be all over them, and rightly so. Why should the reaction to other forms of hate speech be any different?
Your posts accomplish nothing and start unproductive discussion. I am not defending the usage. Only the response. If you really feel that strongly, PM him. If you need to respond to this, PM me.
Because this is a thread about Reality's build order, and that discussion is not even remotely related to that. It's in fact not related to SC at all. Keep it out of this thread.
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
Thank you for saving the universe from the pejorative usage of gay. If not for you, he would never have completely overhauled his vocabulary, recanted his statement, and become a gay rights activist.
It's wrong, and people will keep doing it until they come to understand it as unacceptable. If someone referred to a Korean as a "gook" on this forum, people would be all over them, and rightly so. Why should the reaction to other forms of hate speech be any different?
Wrong? Get over it. Gook is racist and intended that way. Saying an SC build is gay is not intended as a slight against homosexuals in just the same way that it's not describing the build as festive and colourful.
Even though Reality's play was incredibly abusive and probably made Zerg players all over the world rage in front of their computers, you gotta agree that it was so much more respect-worthy than a generic proxy BBS or similar. It was well thought out and fun to watch.
On May 07 2011 23:28 deafhobbit wrote: This build really needs a name - something like "The Kitchen Sink" or "The Everything Rush"
I'd rather call it "the Reality Check" or something similarly apropos. When I open that LR thread, I want to see stuff like, "Uh oh, Shine's about to get a heavy dose of reality" or "Time for a reality check, Action!"
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
Thank you for saving the universe from the pejorative usage of gay. If not for you, he would never have completely overhauled his vocabulary, recanted his statement, and become a gay rights activist.
It's wrong, and people will keep doing it until they come to understand it as unacceptable. If someone referred to a Korean as a "gook" on this forum, people would be all over them, and rightly so. Why should the reaction to other forms of hate speech be any different?
Wrong? Get over it. Gook is racist and intended that way. Saying an SC build is gay is not intended as a slight against homosexuals in just the same way that it's not describing the build as festive and colourful.
Regardless of what you intend, you're still conflating homosexuality with something negative, which is still homophobic. Calling a build you don't like "gay" and saying you didn't intend it to be insulting to homosexuals is no more legitimate than calling cooking "women's work" and saying you don't intend to be insulting to women.
On May 08 2011 03:41 deafhobbit wrote:Regardless of what you intend, you're still conflating homosexuality with something negative, which is still homophobic. Calling a build you don't like "gay" and saying you didn't intend it to be insulting to homosexuals is no more legitimate than calling cooking "women's work" and saying you don't intend to be insulting to women.
I like the analogy; I hadn't heard it put that way before.
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
Thank you for saving the universe from the pejorative usage of gay. If not for you, he would never have completely overhauled his vocabulary, recanted his statement, and become a gay rights activist.
It's wrong, and people will keep doing it until they come to understand it as unacceptable. If someone referred to a Korean as a "gook" on this forum, people would be all over them, and rightly so. Why should the reaction to other forms of hate speech be any different?
Wrong? Get over it. Gook is racist and intended that way. Saying an SC build is gay is not intended as a slight against homosexuals in just the same way that it's not describing the build as festive and colourful.
Regardless of what you intend, you're still conflating homosexuality with something negative, which is still homophobic. Calling a build you don't like "gay" and saying you didn't intend it to be insulting to homosexuals is no more legitimate than calling cooking "women's work" and saying you don't intend to be insulting to women.
Consequentialist premises of definitions are inherently unstable - as they are omnidirectional in regards to information transmit, hence do not constitute a stack based epistemological system, which would be a necessary premise of arguments of definition asymmetries(as was the case here).
Now with regards to the OP, it might be said that the fast part were the vult and wraith attack. Hence their use as a positional maneuver(going past defenses) as opposed to the direct attack of marines and the later marine-medic push
The build wasn't really new, I have seen it in proleague before (it normally just gets stomped) so I guess the timing was a little cleaner. There were a few key points in this game; Reality did not scout inside JD's main in the early game (his scouting scv was with his marines) hence didn't know JD's pool timing. JD thought that after he killed Reality's marines with his drones he would no longer continue marine production as NORMALLY zerglings will be out by then (JD's pool was like 16 or 17 supply). However, Reality continued to produce marines and got a few more drone kills+additional delayed mining time. Another turning point was when JD's mutas went into Reality's base just as the cloak wraiths came, I am pretty sure he saw an additional rax but his focus wasn't there I guess, because he had no clue that there was a bio switch coming.
Good build order from Reality, but I think the hair job on JD zapped some of his anti-cheese defense
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
What exactly is your intent in posting in this thread, besides ruining it through pointless derailing and passive-aggressiveness? Do you feel a thread about an interesting build in a recent professional Starcraft game is the correct outlet for your personal moral preachings? There's a time and a place for everything, and though you might self-righteously believe in an ultimate sense of justice and equality that does not give you a soapbox to yell from wherever you please.
I have yet to see this game and I don't really want to any more Poor JD. I'm pretty curious about the expansion timing though, the 8rax->vult->wraith isn't uncommon and I've done it a lot just to be an asshole but I've never had a timing to expand.
I've seen some pro cheese before... but what Jaedong faced there is pretty much every Z's worst nightmare. Someone who knows all the timings and has the multi-task to pull off ridiculous cheese while getting ahead.
However, when Jaedong suspects cheese like in game 3? You see what happens when you cheese him once
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Wrong! The build that was used on desti was forward 8 rax into vulture into mech, this is far more harass based
No, 8rax into vult into 2port wraiths was used in Destination. Leta did it back then along with various Terrans on iCCup.
That build and this build aren't the same though. Cloak timings are different, there's a dropship, different transitions, etc.
I remember a long while ago this build was popular on... say, Blue Storm? 8 rax into vulture/proxy vulture into wraiths. Dropship transition is an interesting one though
This is the kind of shit why T has an overall better winrate in TvZ, as well as having better economic/defensive openings. Jaedong has lost specifically to 8rax -> vulture -> wraith before (vs Iris), now this is just even more added onto that.
That's why i doubt if he faces Flash in the final he will win, now matter how good his ZvT looks. He's got the possibility of clever planned builds like the weird +1 Goliath timing or cheeses like this for easy wins, only needs to do that in 1 set to have a nice advantage. Along with dependable 14CC on 2 player maps, going to be very hard to beat if it does come to that. Now people will always say why not just early pool; Simply because it's a coin toss.. sure you might win IF it's 14CC but you're too far behind if it's not.
Same reasons why there's barely any ZvT specialists and hardly anyone even gets over 60% in it. You gotta scout and know the best reaction for like 50 different builds, and if you put one foot wrong and lose almost any units or drones -> gg. Meanwhile T can fail and still recover no problems.. and they only have to prepare for a few possible surprise builds, even if there's a few variations. Fast muta's, fast lurkers or speedlings, and none of these are likely going to even be a surprise. Meanwhile they can plan all kinds of devious shit, tech switch repeatedly back mech -> bio -> mech -> bio, proxy buildings, crazy unit combo's that need the exact counter or the Z is instantly evaporated.
I'm not too impressed by this build actually.., you just have to hit precise scourge micro, without drops this build falls apart., also you should not go mutas but mass hydras with range+speed instead.
DANG!!! that's like how I used to play. even if the cheese went wrong, still cheese as hard as i could until either he made mistakes and i won, or if he just eliminated me xD
On May 08 2011 08:12 SkytoM wrote: I'm not too impressed by this build actually.., you just have to hit precise scourge micro, without drops this build falls apart., also you should not go mutas but mass hydras with range+speed instead.
Well you could do this... If you knew it was coming. Having a build like this in your arsenal is nearly criminal because I am pretty sure that if he went hydra he'd done siege tank instead of cloak / valk. It would transition to that just as easily
One stroke of brilliance that I noticed is at one point Reality had like 1-2 marines and 4 medics. He made the medics first so by the time he was ready to push they would be overloaded with energy. He knows the wraith/valkyrie can deter muta harass with turrets so he doesn't need to pound marines early.
This build is like the Terran version of The Stove....except the Zerg in me raged SOO hard even though it was Khan player. I literally went like "RAAAWR!!!" in my room when I see so much cheese done to Jaedong.
On May 07 2011 22:46 whiterabb1t wrote: ... that 12 years after this game was created, one would expect that everything has been figured out already...
I really hardly doubt that ..
Good post
On May 07 2011 22:46 whiterabb1t wrote: This build is like the Terran version of The Stove....
I had the same first thought in particular - marine rush <- the zealots , the vulture <- like the scout, <- then wraiths <- arbiters etc
On May 07 2011 22:46 whiterabb1t wrote: ... that 12 years after this game was created, one would expect that everything has been figured out already...
On May 07 2011 23:28 deafhobbit wrote: This build really needs a name - something like "The Kitchen Sink" or "The Everything Rush"
I agree with the above suggestion. "The Kitchen Sink Build" would be the perfect name for the build. There is nothing "evil" about serial-cheesing the opponent to death. The late game queen transition vs mech on the other hand ...
On second thought, perhaps we should name this "The Terrorist Build"--in anticipation of Fantasy showing us how this build is really supposed to be done.
I think if JD had scouted the 8 rax in time he would have been much more prepared for all the other cheese.
When I watched this game I kept imagining Reality saying, "Oh, you were thinking of moving out of your base? What a silly thought. Let me punish you for that."
Then again, Reality used almost everything that's considered excellent about Terran: High amount of options and tech to choose from, being able to build anywhere without support structures, and the ability to see the whole map with ease.
Was the pool that delayed b/c of the pulling drones? It seemed that JD just put it down abnormally late.
asdfjkl; this build must be even more frustrating to watch come out of the fog of war than 2fac into wraith/valkyrie at your third base - _______ -;
And I don't think JD would really have won even if he was conservative and stayed on three bases only since JD was just so far behind on actually making an army vs. the MnM backtech - that wouldn't really have changed whether he got the fourth then or later since the MnM came in before the fourth/third kicked in at all.
I go back and find 5 pages. I was happy because i though zergs are hive-minding a weakness to the build, and terrans are refining it here in discussion, but what???
4 pages of rubbish gay talk? we should have some sc2 strat guide rule for this kind of stuff.
On May 08 2011 07:16 infinity2k9 wrote: This is the kind of shit why T has an overall better winrate in TvZ, as well as having better economic/defensive openings. Jaedong has lost specifically to 8rax -> vulture -> wraith before (vs Iris), now this is just even more added onto that.
That's why i doubt if he faces Flash in the final he will win, now matter how good his ZvT looks. He's got the possibility of clever planned builds like the weird +1 Goliath timing or cheeses like this for easy wins, only needs to do that in 1 set to have a nice advantage. Along with dependable 14CC on 2 player maps, going to be very hard to beat if it does come to that. Now people will always say why not just early pool; Simply because it's a coin toss.. sure you might win IF it's 14CC but you're too far behind if it's not.
Same reasons why there's barely any ZvT specialists and hardly anyone even gets over 60% in it. You gotta scout and know the best reaction for like 50 different builds, and if you put one foot wrong and lose almost any units or drones -> gg. Meanwhile T can fail and still recover no problems.. and they only have to prepare for a few possible surprise builds, even if there's a few variations. Fast muta's, fast lurkers or speedlings, and none of these are likely going to even be a surprise. Meanwhile they can plan all kinds of devious shit, tech switch repeatedly back mech -> bio -> mech -> bio, proxy buildings, crazy unit combo's that need the exact counter or the Z is instantly evaporated.
I go back and find 5 pages. I was happy because i though zergs are hive-minding a weakness to the build, and terrans are refining it here in discussion, but what???
4 pages of rubbish gay talk? we should have some sc2 strat guide rule for this kind of stuff.
sad day
actually it was more like trolling that dude who felt offended of the usage of Gay.
Kitchen sink build: cheese into harass into m&m-wraith-valk-tank-vulture
The one-of-everything build (aka fast irradiate): That ridiculous 1 rax cc (or 14 cc) build that goes rax->fac->port->facility for fast irradiate to push back muta harass that typically moves towards standard SK or bio-mech. It's not very successful vs competent zergs, yet Flash and fantasy still occasionally experiment with it.
Sparks Terran: 3-rax all-in sunken break
The Asshole build: The inspiration for the Kitchen Sink's harassment element, I feel. You may have seen this build in the Ro8 of the Avalon MSL, Canata vs Jaedong, game one. It was basically something absurd like 8 rax (overlord sniping or bunker rush attempt), 8 fact with vulture run-by attempt, and 8/9 port for wraith to hunt overlord. When it works, it pretty much ends the game. I think there was a similar game Hwasin vs Hyvaa back in the day.
The Combo Breaker: You see it more often today, the 2 fact to 4 rax into goliath+m&m 2 base timing attack. As seen used by Flash and Iris recently.
iloveoov fake mech: Self explanatory. Watch Jaedong vs Ganzi to see its effectiveness.
THE fantasy build: I mean THE build. Killed GGplay but failed vs Jaedong. 1 rax 1 fac 1 vulture then cc into vulture drop w/ speed. Works great vs 3 hatch muta. Not so much vs 2 hatch muta. Hardly seen these days.
2 port wraith into bio: This build always makes a comeback.
2 factory: ForGG played around with this a couple of games last year.
There are others, but those are the ones on the top of my head.
I go back and find 5 pages. I was happy because i though zergs are hive-minding a weakness to the build, and terrans are refining it here in discussion, but what???
4 pages of rubbish gay talk? we should have some sc2 strat guide rule for this kind of stuff.
sad day
actually it was more like trolling that dude who felt offended of the usage of Gay.
Yet you found it appropriate to still continue. Stop it now please and let's talk BW! Watching the VODs now
I really dislike jaedongs choice of mutalisk into 5 hat.
He played as he it was 100% a sure that a mech follow up was the only possibility which in todays metagame is impossible to ascertain 100%.
The nail on the coffin was the lack of speed lords. Without them the wraiths, dropships, and later valks had complete air and therefore map control. No speed lords, no information, no lurkers, over-expanding and lack of adaptablity sealed jaedongs fate.
I feel like the game was more of reality outplaying jaedong and less about the build.
On May 08 2011 00:08 Tien wrote: This build has been used for years now.
Destination was a popular map for terrans to utilize this build.
Nothing new, just the gayest of gay terran builds.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this build has to do with homosexuality?
Wikipedia for "gay":
Adjective gay (comparative gayer, superlative gayest) (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gay folk. Homosexual. (colloquial) Characteristic of homosexual appearance or behavior (often in a stereotypical sense). Feminine in behavior, or, non-masculine, behaving in a way associated with females. (slang, pejorative) Used to express dislike: Lame, uncool, stupid. This game is gay; let’s play a different one. = I dislike this game; let’s play a different one.
This should make it clearer for you.
If by wikipedia you mean wiktionary. Learn to cite sources. Also, stop being homophobic.
Thank you for saving the universe from the pejorative usage of gay. If not for you, he would never have completely overhauled his vocabulary, recanted his statement, and become a gay rights activist.
It's wrong, and people will keep doing it until they come to understand it as unacceptable. If someone referred to a Korean as a "gook" on this forum, people would be all over them, and rightly so. Why should the reaction to other forms of hate speech be any different?
Wrong? Get over it. Gook is racist and intended that way. Saying an SC build is gay is not intended as a slight against homosexuals in just the same way that it's not describing the build as festive and colourful.
Regardless of what you intend, you're still conflating homosexuality with something negative, which is still homophobic. Calling a build you don't like "gay" and saying you didn't intend it to be insulting to homosexuals is no more legitimate than calling cooking "women's work" and saying you don't intend to be insulting to women.
Consequentialist premises of definitions are inherently unstable - as they are omnidirectional in regards to information transmit, hence do not constitute a stack based epistemological system, which would be a necessary premise of arguments of definition asymmetries(as was the case here).
Now with regards to the OP, it might be said that the fast part were the vult and wraith attack. Hence their use as a positional maneuver(going past defenses) as opposed to the direct attack of marines and the later marine-medic push
i was reading this above, and i am complimenting the guy i am quoting. i do not understand half those words and it seems like he has memorized a theasaures. in regards to this gay thing, its pretty stupid for people to say that racism is more harsh than homosexuality. in no way is it "better" to use the term gay in a derogatory term than use the term "gook". but its just embedded into our generation. its sad, and it should be changed. even i use it sadly, but many of us, especially in NA are so used to using that word that we subconsciously ignore what that word really means and who it can affect.
anyways, what a GAME! it makes me hate this build more v zerg than i hate 2 port wraith :p
On May 08 2011 11:33 AttackZerg wrote: I really dislike jaedongs choice of mutalisk into 5 hat.
He played as he it was 100% a sure that a mech follow up was the only possibility which in todays metagame is impossible to ascertain 100%.
The nail on the coffin was the lack of speed lords. Without them the wraiths, dropships, and later valks had complete air and therefore map control. No speed lords, no information, no lurkers, over-expanding and lack of adaptablity sealed jaedongs fate.
I feel like the game was more of reality outplaying jaedong and less about the build.
Jaedong had barely enough money by wraiths time. He was saving it for mutas. The end came early i guess, wave and waves of drone kill. He might as well have 3 hatch before pool in that case. Also can't blame JD to go mutas. That was the best option given his situation. He needed to attack already, and lurkers will delay him unnecassarily and will be too risky if reality went wraiths or bio as he did and not mech. Smart game.
I feel like if the proxy rax didn't do so much damage, everything else wasn't anything jaedong couldn't handle. Scouting the proxy makes this build infinitely less effective and against something like 9pool or overpool it would probably be auto-lose.
On May 08 2011 07:16 infinity2k9 wrote: This is the kind of shit why T has an overall better winrate in TvZ, as well as having better economic/defensive openings. Jaedong has lost specifically to 8rax -> vulture -> wraith before (vs Iris), now this is just even more added onto that.
That's why i doubt if he faces Flash in the final he will win, now matter how good his ZvT looks. He's got the possibility of clever planned builds like the weird +1 Goliath timing or cheeses like this for easy wins, only needs to do that in 1 set to have a nice advantage. Along with dependable 14CC on 2 player maps, going to be very hard to beat if it does come to that. Now people will always say why not just early pool; Simply because it's a coin toss.. sure you might win IF it's 14CC but you're too far behind if it's not.
Same reasons why there's barely any ZvT specialists and hardly anyone even gets over 60% in it. You gotta scout and know the best reaction for like 50 different builds, and if you put one foot wrong and lose almost any units or drones -> gg. Meanwhile T can fail and still recover no problems.. and they only have to prepare for a few possible surprise builds, even if there's a few variations. Fast muta's, fast lurkers or speedlings, and none of these are likely going to even be a surprise. Meanwhile they can plan all kinds of devious shit, tech switch repeatedly back mech -> bio -> mech -> bio, proxy buildings, crazy unit combo's that need the exact counter or the Z is instantly evaporated.
I've been experimenting to see how you can do this build in single player.
Here's what I've come up with so far: 8 Rax 9 Supply 11 refinery @100% refinery - 3 scvs on gas @ 88 gas pull 2 scvs one by one off gas @100 gas: factory SCV + 3 Marines put some pressure but sacrifice them before factory completes 16/17/18 supply depot, should be started after factory when you have 100 mins and can still have constant scv production @100% factory - Starport - Vulture - Put 2 scvs back on gas 22 supply depot @ 2 vultures: go harass and put down machine shop @ 100% starport: 1 wraith 28 supply depot, 1 SCV making supply throughout @ 100% Wraith: go harass, make control tower @ 100% machine shop: mines, constant vultures until you have 4 @ 100% control tower: cloak @ 4 vultures: drop mines, load into dropship Expo after dropship completes, around 46 supply if you lose nothing, or around 6:30 After expo is up you should put down ebay, more rax, armory and academy.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PKteS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B9cf0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img1.fomos.kr/board/photo/1291892599_1.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1599/vodaz1.gif)
It was well thought out and fun to watch. 
in particular - marine rush <- the zealots , the vulture <- like the scout, <- then wraiths <- arbiters etc
