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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
1.) Which race is it easiest/hardest to micro/macro with? Hardest Micro - Zerg Easiest - Protoss Hardest Macro - Zerg (Of course this one can be argued greatly) Easiest - Toss/Terran and 2.) Which progamers have best micro/macro? Micro - Boxer, Yellow, Nada, Chojja Macro - Not too sure... | ||
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KiD[ReD]
Canada2103 Posts
1. Terran 2. Zerg 3. Protoss Protoss is so easy to micro, but 1 and 2 are fairly even in difficulty I think. Hardest Macro 1. Terran 2. Zerg 3. Protoss Which progamers have best micro macro? Hmm... Best Micro: YelloW, Nada, Grrr (Come on! He has best goon control in world!) and Jinnam!! Macro: Reach, Yellow, Enough, | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
1. Terran 2. Protoss 3. Zerg Little note is that I wonder how you can think microing is hard as zerg..? Hardest thing zerg will have to do is burrow lurkers :/ Hardest Macro: No real difference here I think Best micro: Boxer Best macro: Gundam | ||
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TheSlowHand
Korea (South)177 Posts
I remember one of the OGN finals agains jinnam, where boxer just finished off an exp. w/ dropship and jinnam's mass hydras came for revenge. seven units made it on the dropship but one marine was left behind. With the dropship on its escape, with wave of hydras chasing, BoxeR STIMMED the sole marine and saved all eight units. I thought I was watching a movie.  Maybe boxer really cares about each and every unit he produces.. or maybe he thinks he is god. | ||
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KiD[ReD]
Canada2103 Posts
To Nazgul: Being a Terran-only player myself, I'm glad we both agree Terran has hardest time microing - I think though, for zerg, that they need to micro with lings (yellow is a good example) and hydra dance, and also muta harass.. TheSlowHand: I've read somewhere that Boxer and his Manager truely believe that spending the extra time microing while saving money in the bank is better than letting those units die and spending the money.. personally i think that boxer micros a bit TOO much, and should spend/do whatever else more - basically im saying that his attention is usually 80% micro, and i think he should put it down to about 75% micro | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
To Nazgul: I don't really know how toss needs to micro that much, except pvt, all they need is to throw a few storms around. Zerg micro vs toss and terran is limited because there is just so much zerg can do before being stormed to death or tanked the hell out of. Using defilers requires a lot of micro aswell. I agree however, that once ultras arrive you dont need that much micro but hydra dancing is requires a lot of attention. Macro is definately zerg as the hardest. Zerg has to build expoes all over the map to fight the other races, and manage the expoes as well. I watched a blackman vs elky replay where blackman just throws hatcheries all over the map AND produce troops/drones from them consistantly. | ||
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CeltiC.MoOn
Germany160 Posts
1) terran 2) zerg 3) toss hardest macro: 1) zerg 2) toss 3) terran - best micro - -best macro- terran: boxer, nada (NTT retired long ago..doh!) --a toss: sonjjang, garimto saft (retired too..DOH!) --a zerg: yellow, chojja cloud, yellow | ||
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
1.) Which race is it easiest/hardest to micro/macro with? Hardest Micro - Terran Easiest - Zerg Hardest Macro - Terran Easiest - Zerg Zerg control and macro is easy. Hard part with zerg is strategy and decision making. With intensive micromanagement of zerg units there is a less prominant return in killing efficiency compared to terran, and to a lesser extent, protoss. Macro is super easy. You don't get penalized as much for controlling alot due to larva accumulation and you can hotkey produce so much more efficiently. Terran control is hardest and pays off the most. Most terran units build fast so you need to go to base alot more often and there is a VERY visible penalty for forgetting to produce a cycle of units. Protoss control pays off pretty well but is less difficult then terran. Protoss units build slow so macro is easier. and 2.) Which progamers have best micro/macro? Micro - Boxer, Yellow, Nada, Chojja, Elky, basically all starleague regulars. Macro - Reach, HOT, Chrh, Nada, Yellow. | ||
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no1important
557 Posts
Zerg early game macro imo sux Micro: 1. Terran 2. Protoss (pvz with temps (reavers maybe), Pvt with the shuttles, PvP with reaver shuttles + temps) 3. Hydra-Lurk vs T is only 1 Macro: 1. Zerg (late game) 2. Protoss 3. Terran Micro: BoxeR Yellow Rain Macro. All above and hasudrone blackman | ||
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Liquid.Venice
United States916 Posts
I just find it sort of annoying. | ||
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tenbagger
United States1289 Posts
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Quiksilver
United States424 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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ky[Z]
China1730 Posts
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NewbieMcNasty
United States328 Posts
The "constant peon" rule intermediate level players impose on themselves is generally ok, but eventually they will have to learn that if battling a player who skips some peons and macros perfectly, THEY WILL LOSE all battles in the middle until they have an expansion and the extra production facilities to make it worthwhile. This is why the gundam rush (4 marines, 2 scv, tank, vulture) is practically an auto win vs safe intermediate protoss users. They generally have the misconception that they can go constant probe, expand, and win a battle in the center against a 3 factory Terran. Expanding IS viable against this rush, just it involves either a secret expansion or elevating troops down from the initial plateau for a counterattack NOT simply attepting to directly force a break in the tank push. | ||
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^Shadow_Blade^
United States11 Posts
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm Very well said  | ||
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[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
sc is nothing more then making good decisions over and over. | ||
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KiD[ReD]
Canada2103 Posts
This is one of the many reasons why I personally love BW. I also love chess, an intellectual game, and thus I like that BW takes a lot of thinking, not just a mindless game. Casper mentions that sc takes good decision making. This can be proven by watching Pro's play - often average people will be flabbergasted by the strage things pro's do; things that may look newbish, such as cancelling a building to make something else (loss of money and time) or backing out of a long awaited plan such as a drop. Part of the reason why Boxer can come back so well is not solely because of his micro, but because boxer is a very intelligent player - he is the most resourceful player (hey, something you can coin him Mensrea!) in the history of BW - and comes up with onorthadox but amazing ideas that for some odd reason, nobody else has thought of before. Sorry.. just love this game ^^ | ||
Waxangel
United States33385 Posts
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ErOs_Probe
Netherlands680 Posts
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Nuttie
Poland302 Posts
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Saab
Sweden28 Posts
It depends a lot on your definition, if macro is defined as quickly being able to switch from battlefield to unit production/building supply then terran or zerg is probably the hardest.. but if it's defined as making decisions in for instance when to go expand (and where) then protoss is no more easier than zerg or terran i guess (contrary to what everyone here says) | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
Toss is therefore totally reliant on surprise attacks (psi raids, carriers, arbiter recall/stasising a push) to defeat a good Terran, and precision storming to defeat a good Zerg. That's my take on it anyway. | ||
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
ya nazgul went 30-10 or so vs zerg in wgtour 2 seasons ago by using only precision storming. ya nazgul raped jinnam with precision storm. toss dominates at newbie level and is dominated at pro level therefore blah blah more garbage etc etc! | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
And I agree with everything in Casper's first post on this topic. | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
Some people are dumb so I'll spell it out: B o x e r - - - - R u l e s - - - - A t - - - - M a c r o Understand? I recommend you watch some Boxer replays ( one of the best examples being the famous Boxer vs Chungsang game ) then talk about this using the knowledge you acquire. | ||
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OvertLogic
United States45 Posts
Most Micro Intensive: Terran Toss Zerg -A note on the Toss. I think that a bit more micro from top Toss players would see a few more Toss victories. Plus some more diversity/misdirection in attack. I saw one of the Boxer/Naz reps where Boxer dropped 2 tanks on the nat, another in the main, and ran vults in the front. Naz managed it well, but, still... You see Zerg hit w/ muta, drops, and a frontal all at the same time too. But not very often do you see a Toss frontal/sair/temp drop or whatever at the same time. Most Macro Intensive: Zerg Toss Terran Might just be my old school bones, but it's just the way I feel. | ||
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Possum87{+}
United States19 Posts
1.Terran (tvz makes it this) 2.Protoss 3.Zerg Hardest macro 1.Terran 2.Zerg 3.Protoss I'm a toss player btw!! | ||
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imRadu
1798 Posts
and as for the original thread Hardest micro: terran zerg toss Hardest macro: terran toss zerg | ||
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
The reason I think Zerg has the hardest micro is because Muta Harassment and Zling harrassment is actually pretty tough. More tough then just rushing in with M&M's, or M&M dropping. Plus most terrans just pull siege moves, they load lots of siege tanks outside the zergs base, blast away the sunkens, sit their M&M army right by the tanks to slaughter any zerglings, plus have a few SV to irr the lurks. The zerg actually has to use some micro to rush out and defend. And when you get into late game, talking about 40 mins into it. Zerg starts to get defilers, and ultras. Defiler believe it or not does take some good micro. I agree in some situations terran has probably a harder time microing, but overall, zerg has it the hardest. Toss is just almost the same as terran, but they do have to micro storm properly, all Terran has to do is use irr, and let it kill off the unit itself. | ||
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AlmostSexy
United States150 Posts
To overt logic- you cant honestly think that professial protoss players dont micro a TON...and the reason you dont see temp drop sair and frontal at the same time is because they all take a ton of MICRO and you cant micro 3 seperate attacks at the same time unless your the fastest bw player out there...thanks for contradicting yourself. | ||
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Stim_Abuser
United States1277 Posts
zerg has the easiest macro because it has has larva that can build up thus saving time & you dont have to check your hatchs to see if a larva is sitting around. terran is the hardest to macro imo because like people before me said the units build faster then protoss & zerg has the ability of saving up larva. Rahvin have you ever played terran at a decent level? micro m&m vs lurkers or vults on goons with mines or dropship micro its alot harder then you think. anyway for original post for micro 1.terran 2.protoss 3.zerg for macro 1.terran 2.protoss 3.zerg | ||
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Sinny
United States81 Posts
But, my favorite macro party is JJu. I just finished a watching a rep of JJu v XellOs[yG]. It was amazing how xellos played but the way that JJu won the game with amazing macro was just awesome. Handspeed is very important in playing micro/macro. | ||
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AlmostSexy
United States150 Posts
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Eliminator
Netherlands681 Posts
Hardest micro: 1 Zerg/Terran/Protoss Hardest macro: 1 Zerg 3 Terran/Protoss Everyone can micro better with 1 race than the other. It's all about what u like. If u like storming shit outta zerg, u'll get good in pvz. If u like seeing rines getting raped 5 at the same time, u'll a get good zvt, if u like overwhelming units from every direction u'll get a good zvp. If u got potential not to mess any unit up. U'll get good zvz etc. etc. I'm a toss player btw. Zerg's macro is the hardest tho, cause they got hatches all over the map. All those rally points make u go insane. Well that is if u use every one of them, which is already hard enough. | ||
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j03xy00n
United States8 Posts
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XythOs
Germany520 Posts
On October 01 2007 10:15 j03xy00n wrote: y didnt ne1 put iloveoov as best macro thot he was the best Maybe 'coz this thread is 4 fucking years old? | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
edit: To the person below me. Noone mentioned  iloveoov cuz this thread was made b4 iloveoov even debuted on the pro scene | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
for Micro, i'll take Nal_ra  | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
On October 01 2007 10:53 GeneralStan wrote: I can't believe nobody has mentioned Oov as best macro. Oov is a macro monster. for Micro, i'll take Nal_ra Ugh I think you fucked up worse than the guy who bumped this. | ||
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Wizard
Poland5055 Posts
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
On October 01 2007 11:19 Wizard wrote: I think we should ban them both... seconded >_> | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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MaTaAeRuKaNa
United States95 Posts
Macro: Who cares... Micro 1. Protoss - Garimto 2.Zerg - Yellow Savior <3 JulyZerg Crazy_hydralisk (or w/e) 3. Terran BOXER nada Macro 1.P hell, i dono .... pusan..? 2.Z savior 3.T oov nada | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
Why do people go searching in archives 4 years old, anyways?!?! | ||
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Wizard
Poland5055 Posts
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
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TeRRan`UseR
Canada692 Posts
1. Terran 2. Zerg 3. Protoss Hardest to macro: 1. Terran 2. Zerg 3. Protoss To be fair to protoss, I think they're the most strategy/timing dependant race. Best micro: T: The Emperor P: Nal_ra Z: Yellow Best macro: T: Nada P: Bisu Z: Savior | ||
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tiffany
3664 Posts
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
Sorry about that | ||
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CustomXSpunjah
United States1093 Posts
Hardest to Micro: Terran Protoss Zerg Hardest to Macro: Terran Zerg Protoss Best Micro: Boxer, rA Best Macro: Oov and Pusan | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
Hardest to micro hmm Terran zerg toss Hardest to macro terran zerg toss Best micro: Free, Boxer/casy, jaedong Best macro: oov/sea, stork, | ||
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bellsprout
Australia219 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15327 Posts
Once you advance to post-nub level I think Terran ist still hardest to micro but Zerg has the hardest time macroeing by far because of the multitasking you need to produce from hatcheries all over the map. Protoss is somewhere between, depending on MU. On the pro level I think the question isn't really valid anymore since they all mastered their respective race anyway. You can't really say Terran is harder to macro than Zerg when pro players from both races macro perfectly. Of course you can still destinguish macro- vs micro-oriented play styles. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
i had a little smile on my face when reading the question '' y no one metnioned oov ?'' looked up and saw the thread date. 2003 thumbs up !  | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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CustomXSpunjah
United States1093 Posts
zerg really only has to surround with lings at beginning stages and then burrow lurks and dark swarm end game... | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Naz sez... best macro = Gundam. | ||
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
Hardest to micro: Zerg - TOO MANY LINGS!!! AND UNITS ARE TOO MANY AND STUPID | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
Hardest Micro Terran Zerg Protoss Hardest Macro Terran Zerg Protoss 2.) Which progamers have best micro/macro? Micro - Boxer, JulyZerg, Nal_rA (not too sure about rA, but his sair/reavers are pretty cool) Macro - Tempest)ls(, Savior, IloveOov (i think those should obvious, since theyre famous for it) | ||
KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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Diggity
United States806 Posts
Zerg Terran Toss If you ctrl click with terran units to do group select micro is infinitely easier. Terran do need to constantly micro tanks, but honestly hitting a single hot key and moving troops forward isn't "crazy" micro. Medic and marines can have amazing micro, but generally just camping with medics in front is easy enough. With zerg you need to micro individual units that you cant ctrl click. You need to guide groups of 3 zerglings to attack a single marine in TvZ and generally you have to baby sit all your forces around the map. The Lurk v Tank micro comparison is a bit silly to me since tanks have a ridculous amount of range, where lurks can neutralized by almost all upgraded ranged units with a simple pull back. To have an effective lurk attack you need to pin troops in with zerglings or pin them against the corner of a map or otherwise spam hold position to get a sneak attack off. (ridculous amounts of micro in all regards) As far as Macro I dont know what the measuring criteria are. Zerg have a tough time with macro simply because they have to baby sit their units and spend so much time in micro. However with a control select group in the higher number range you only need to select a single buidling type (hatchery) v several building types for terran or toss. Zerg can also replenish forces/units/drones much faster than the other races. Toss has the advantage of being able to leave buildings alone, however their tech tree is intensive. Terran only need a barracks, academy, factory, armory, starport and sci facility to have all the end game units they will really need. Toss on the other hand needs a forge, gateway, templar archive, starport, robotic facility, etc etc for diverse unit production. I think people are also over looking "mezzo managment" which falls into the category of massive troop movement (aka not ordering individual units into combat but large groups across the minimap) I think the rankings for these categories are clear Micro: Boxer hands down. He wins and loses by his micro Mezzo: Savior. He is the maestro for a reason Macro: IloveOov. I'm suprised he hasn't been mentioned yet. His ability to produce troops out of thin air is amazing. Surprising enough to be called "cheater" on a lan game. | ||
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CowGoMoo
United States428 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
Micro: Terran Zerg Protoss Macro: Zerg Terran Protoss On the other hand, protoss is probably the hardest concerning timing/strategy/reading your opponent. I played all of the races for some time, so I think I got a pretty good grasp of the micro/macro (at least at my level ^_^). The hardest micro would be terran, particularly becouse of tvz, no doubt about that (and it requires intense multitasking). Tvp generally isn't as hard, but if you want to do everything perfectly, you need to spread the tanks, mine/position vults instantly. Zerg micro is hard becouse of the number of units you have to move around the map (if you call that micro) to wait for the perfect time and place to attack your opponent (and you have to position them perfectly for a flank, otherwise it's gg). Try attacking a terran that has like 2 goups of mm/tanks/sv with lurkerling + defiler + scourge if you think zerg micro is easy. Any mistake with zerg is bad, becouse of the vulnerability of the units (unlike toss). Toss micro isn't hard but it not easy either. Toss troops are pretty strong, so you can afford minor mistakes (you see players storming their own troops etc.). Casting storms can be problematic, but thinking about the zerg player having to dodge them usually helps. xD Zerg macro imo is the hardest. To all of you who say it's easy, try controlling 3+ exps all over the map - good luck. (blackman is a jackass! how can he do it?!? XD) There's not enough easy hotkeys to controll all that. Zerg macro requires insane active-all-around-the-map-multitasking. Toss and terran macro buildings are mostly clumped up and you rarely have more than 2 exps (and you don't have to do anything other than produce scvs/probes there), so it's farely easy to macro. (the hardest beeing tvz where 1k minerals can come up your ass in just one little short fight - the units build fast). Toss macro is funny (units build slowly), the hardest thing beeing is deciding when to exp. One of the problems with toss and terran especially is no room for buildings/mess in the base. Imo toss requires the least apm. You can see pretty strong toss players with low apm, but a terran or zerg with such apm would probably be killed. But it all probably evens out at the end. Every race has some hard points and some easy points. and yes, I know this is a revived old topic, but still I find it interesting to comment here. and this is all imo (and at my level and playstyle), but do enlighten me if you feel I'm wrong. =) | ||
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MegaZergling
United States13 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On April 08 2008 12:23 MegaZergling wrote: Ok, guys, ima total fucking idiot(You can call me that) but i dont exactly know what is macro or micro. My idea is that Micro is how small you can pack your base in??? And that Macro.... well i dont know. I've played SC for a long time, but i play use map settings. There fun.=) Micro is controlling your individual units, ie. using three marines to kill a lurker or killing large groups of melee units with only a few ranged units (dragoon vs zeal, marine vs ling etc.) Macro is general game sense and economy, spending money, expanding, creating the right units, etc. | ||
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
On April 08 2008 12:23 MegaZergling wrote: Ok, guys, ima total fucking idiot(You can call me that) but i dont exactly know what is macro or micro. My idea is that Micro is how small you can pack your base in??? And that Macro.... well i dont know. I've played SC for a long time, but i play use map settings. There fun.=) Excellent bump. Perhaps I should refer you to this thread: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883 | ||
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MegaZergling
United States13 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
I think it was an alright bump, shows that he at least searched before asking. | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
macro = unit production micro = unit control Although i don't offrace very much, i think zerg macro might be the easiest. You produce everything from hatcheries, larvae are like queuing with no delay, and drone production feels easier to manage than probes/scvs. | ||
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JustQuitWarcraftIII
United States679 Posts
Why do Terran use M&M vs Zerg? I've quite noobish and have lots of trouble controlling infantry units so I go with metal every TvZ. | ||
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
On April 08 2008 12:29 LonelyMargarita wrote: Excellent bump. Perhaps I should refer you to this thread: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883 Would you have wanted him to create a new thread about this or bumped a topic that involved, the same shit in a different context? | ||
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
On April 10 2008 13:39 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote: I need a ask an off-topic question since a new member can't create their own threads for the first 10 days. Why do Terran use M&M vs Zerg? I've quite noobish and have lots of trouble controlling infantry units so I go with metal every TvZ. It's more mobile | ||
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xhuwin
United States476 Posts
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blind3x3
United States49 Posts
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00Zarathustra
Bolivia419 Posts
For macro i stay with iloveoov and maybe jaedong (remember the game with bisu at blue storm, dont tell me that being able to produce that amount of units after all the harrass bisu did is not a perfect macro display) | ||
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
Easiest Micro - Zerg, attack lings while burrowing lurkers, defiler is another issue. Hardest Macro - none.. Easiest Macro - Terran...low cost buildings compared to Toss (Toss have high gas cost which irritates me) Best Micro - Boxer, we can make a movie about his immortal marines. Best Macro - Oov, the Monster Terran. | ||
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noname_
456 Posts
Rax 150 / Gate 150 Fact 200/100 / Gate 150 8 fact:s 1600/800 (+Machine shops not included) -- 10: Gates 1500 Is the Terran cheap isn`t it? Protoss doesn`t need much gas as Terran, this isn`t true. Terran need the most gas after Zerg. | ||
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On April 11 2008 00:47 gg_hertzz wrote: i don't know why people say terran has hardest micro but i think zerg has the hardest micro from the many games i've played as zerg. terran units are so straight forward to micro they don't require much intricacy compared to zerg units like mutas or lurkers for example. I agree with this post. Honestly, with fast hands, Marine + Medic is very easy to handle. Zerg on the other hand you gotta flank and burrow perfectly and that shit is hard D: | ||
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afdagfhds3gdg2
United States77 Posts
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o3.power91
Bahrain5288 Posts
On April 11 2008 00:47 gg_hertzz wrote: i don't know why people say terran has hardest micro but i think zerg has the hardest micro from the many games i've played as zerg. terran units are so straight forward to micro they don't require much intricacy compared to zerg units like mutas or lurkers for example. It's probably harder for people in general to micro terran units due to their different commands (siege, place mine, stim). It's probably easier to micro small groups of terran units than zerg but when it comes to larger groups, i often make the mistake of double stim Zerg large armies are easier for me to micro due to the simple 1a2a3a4a (defiler is different; lurkers are grouped on their own so i can burrow asap ) I'm not so good, and my main race is P so what do i know? | ||
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o3.power91
Bahrain5288 Posts
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
Macro - Bisu, GGPlay, Xellos, Iris, Stork, Tempest, Best | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On May 21 2008 07:13 emucxg wrote: Micro - Boxer, Yellow, Julyzerg Macro - Bisu, GGPlay, Xellos, Iris, Stork, Tempest, Best The fact that you didn't put iloveoov as macro disturbs me, even though he's retired :p | ||
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o3.power91
Bahrain5288 Posts
On May 21 2008 07:13 emucxg wrote: Micro - Boxer, Yellow, Julyzerg Macro - Bisu, GGPlay, Xellos, Iris, Stork, Tempest, Best WTF!!!!! WHERE THE FUCK ARE OOV NADA AND JAEDONG!!!!11 PS. How long have you been playing SC? | ||
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