EPTWho were/are the best foreign sc1 players?
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Rasky
United States406 Posts
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MisteR
Netherlands595 Posts
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Rasky
United States406 Posts
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Simplistik
1956 Posts
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
PJ was perhaps the most skilled non-korean. He's retired now, but he was the best chinese player and even took games off players like Bisu and Savior at WCG. Idra has been regarded as the best foreigner in the west, if you will. He spent 3 years on the CJ Entus team but didn't get any televised games. Won a lot of foreigner tourneys and even knocked out Tossgirl in qualifiers once. Nony was on Estro for a bit, and he's also seen as a really talented foreigner and rival to Idra. Ret, same thing as nony. Ret joined Estro but it didn't really work out too well. Won quite a few foreigner tourneys also and almost always placed fairly high. That's all I can think of, the rest are pretty unremarkable. Theres Grrr and Elky of course, but I didn't watch sc back then so I cant comment | ||
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qwaykee
Norway266 Posts
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
 Androide was pretty good. | ||
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lungo
Denmark276 Posts
Elky for being the latest foreigner to be on the kespa top30list Mondi for his many year domination PJ for his godly pvt LX was good SEn also dominated for a while Legionaire from AUS, probaly being the latest foreigner top play a kespa television match? Idra was probably the best player in the end of the SC era (since sc2 came out) Ret and nony were / are good i liked JF as well | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13021 Posts
White-ra, Nony, Ret, Idra as the dominant players in the last active year of BW. And my favorite player when i started with SC was Brat_Tsunami. Man that guy was damn impressive for like 80-100 apm zerg. His SC guide and his reppack was the first thing I read and watched for some basic BW knowledge. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
Personally, though, I think Nony had the most potential out of all the foreign players by far. When in form he was utterly amazing. I think if he'd stuck to it he could have easily been very successful in BW. I think he made the smarter decision in leaving Korea for his life overall, though. Further, I think Ret had more potential than Idra, and Idra was, to me, a huge disappointment after having been in Korea for so long. His play really started becoming solid towards the end of his BW career but it still saddens me we never even saw him take Courage. I find it very sad how Ret's first stay in Korea ended up and am embarrassed for Korea because of it if what I've gathered is correct. Koll (everyone seems to have completely forgotten him lol) really surprised the scene when he took games off of progamers at a WCG with some pretty solid play. If he really was the more solid mechanically-based player he was hyped to be, then he would've had quite a bit of potential as well. Aside from that, there were a ton of good players. White-Ra was always one of my favorites, as well as the foreign hero Mondragon, a lot of the Chinese players, I always really liked Brat_ok's play as well, for whatever reason. The biggest thing missing from most foreigners in their play was that base mechanical foundation. This is something that can only come from lots and lots of dedicated practice and the beating out of some bad habits. Beyond that, though, some simply flat out do have more potential than others. That said, I'll go out on a limb and once again say Nony had the most potential by far and very nearly was the best. | ||
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Assuton
United States28 Posts
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ssregi-
Korea (South)146 Posts
The best | ||
Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
PJ, possibly the strongest Chinese player, beat savior during savior's reign as bonjwa. I think that's something only a handful of top Koreans could do at that time. As for westerners, I think IdrA-Ret-Nony were considered to be the best. | ||
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IAttackYou
United States330 Posts
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blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
though If I had to limit it to skill level prior to release of SC2 per race, I'd say: Terran: Grack Toss: NonY Zerg: Mondragon | ||
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blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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zerious
Canada3803 Posts
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LunarDestiny
United States4177 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
Most bm: NoHope First protoss fan: Idra Favourite clown: MisterZZZ Strongest foreigner: Incontrol Cookie time: Cloud Best nickname: Testie False modesty champion and waffle award: Mondragon Top mentally challenged player: GosI[Terran] Abuser forever: Yosh BBQ sauce: Dreiven Kimbo award: HovZ Best haircut: Elky #1 BGH player: Surfer4life Oblivion medal: Dino Australian starcraft player: Legionnaire Best storm drops and arbiter play: Nony | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
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Aquafresh
United States824 Posts
If you have some free time here are some good threads and articles to get a good feel of the scenes history. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=71352 About as old-school as it gets. Lots of forgotten names turned up to post in that thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=26 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=32 Subforums for the two TSLs, which were huge foreign events near the end of foreign BW relatively speaking. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=33197 Pretty much the oldest thread I can remember reading (I haven't been here all that long) that deals with this stuff. By Jinro (FrozenArbiter at the time) and a really good read to get familiarized with players. There was an old thread I remember from way back by someone with a nuke icon now that detailed a bunch of early foreigner/TL history all the way back from 1998 to about when Draco was in Korea. I couldn't find it anywhere, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about it would be awesome to have it linked. | ||
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nekuodah
England2409 Posts
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Ex-progamers: Legionnaire, Elky, Naz, Grrr, Rek, Draco and later on Idra, nony, ret. Pretty much hexatron/amd Don't think he's been mentioned much yet, and I know a lot of koreans are bitter that he won KBK but it would be a disgrace not to mention this guy: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Slayer Edit: Little known fact. Russian player Asmodey http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Asmodey is the only player other than Elky Legion and Grr to play in a OSL. | ||
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holyhalo5
United States187 Posts
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
Besides, he rolled with random every game cuz that’s the only way to play. | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On December 17 2010 09:16 Boblion wrote: Best Achievements: Grrr Most bm: NoHope First protoss fan: Idra Favourite clown: MisterZZZ Strongest foreigner: Incontrol Cookie time: Cloud Best nickname: Testie False modesty champion and waffle award: Mondragon Top mentally challenged player: GosI[Terran] Abuser forever: Yosh BBQ sauce: Dreiven Kimbo award: HovZ Best haircut: Elky #1 BGH player: Surfer4life Oblivion medal: Dino Australian starcraft player: Legionnaire Best storm drops and arbiter play: Nony isnt GosI[Terran] and MisterZZZ and YOSh playing SC2? | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On December 17 2010 09:16 Boblion wrote: Best Achievements: Grrr Most bm: NoHope First protoss fan: Idra Favourite clown: MisterZZZ Strongest foreigner: Incontrol Cookie time: Cloud Best nickname: Testie False modesty champion and waffle award: Mondragon Top mentally challenged player: GosI[Terran] Abuser forever: Yosh BBQ sauce: Dreiven Kimbo award: HovZ Best haircut: Elky #1 BGH player: Surfer4life Oblivion medal: Dino Australian starcraft player: Legionnaire Best storm drops and arbiter play: Nony Haha, I thoroughly enjoyed that list.  Just felt like linking this: http://ising.pl/nagranie/3isqrrmgf3 LEAVE MISTRZZZ ALONE! | ||
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Kyhol
Canada2574 Posts
Terran - Yosh Zerg - Mondragon | ||
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Kyhol
Canada2574 Posts
On December 17 2010 09:16 Boblion wrote: Best Achievements: Grrr Most bm: NoHope First protoss fan: Idra Favourite clown: MisterZZZ Strongest foreigner: Incontrol Cookie time: Cloud Best nickname: Testie False modesty champion and waffle award: Mondragon Top mentally challenged player: GosI[Terran] Abuser forever: Yosh BBQ sauce: Dreiven Kimbo award: HovZ Best haircut: Elky #1 BGH player: Surfer4life Oblivion medal: Dino Australian starcraft player: Legionnaire Best storm drops and arbiter play: Nony Abuser Forever: Yosh? Yosh was better than all of those Terran players that everyone assumed to be good. He was the best Terran in USA. Years of the highest skilled play in NA and now he's known as a "Abuser". I find it rather disgusting, really. It was two games and both games were played straight up. That just disturbs me. I was informed. Yosh was more of an abuser than I thought. | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
T - IdrA Z - Mondragon | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On December 17 2010 12:45 Khol wrote: Abuser Forever: Yosh? Yosh was better than all of those Terran players that everyone assumed to be good. He was the best Terran in USA. Years of the highest skilled play in NA and now he's known as a "Abuser". I find it rather disgusting, really. It was two games and both games were played straight up. That just disturbs me. but what he won? any tournament? | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
My list for Top30 Alltime nonkoreans 1. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/ca.png) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.gif) Grrrr(P,R) - OSL(Hanaro), Blizzard world championship, WCG03 3rd, Best 99,00,01,02,032. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/fr.png) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.gif) Elky(T) - OSL(Sky2002) 4th, WCG01 2nd, ECG04, Best 01,02,03,043. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/no.png) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.gif) Slayer(R) - KBK00, Best 99,00,01,024. Sven(T,R) - Best 99,00,01,025. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/us.png) Maynard(T,R) - Best 98,99,00, Nickname "God" among the best players6. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/se.png) SaFT(P,R) - WGT season2(old french WGT), Best 01,027. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/pl.png) Blackman(Z) - WCG02 3rd, Best 02,03,04,058. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/cn.png) PJ(P,R) - WCG07 2nd, MYM tour, Best 03,04,05,06,07,08,09, Chinese tournaments9. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/ru.png) Androide(T) - WCG05 2nd, Best 03,04,05,06,0710. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/de.png) Mondragon(Z) - WCG07 3rd, WGT season9, ECG05, GGL2, EuroCup, TLT1 2nd, TSL2 2nd, Best 03,04,05,06,07,08,0911. Lx(P) - PGL08, Best 05,06,07,08,0912. Draco(P) - PGL07, TANL3, Best 03,04,05,06,07,0813. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/tw.png) Sen(Z) - Best 05,06,07,09, ToT Tour14. Advokate(T) - TLT2, SomE tour, Best 04,05,06,07,08,0915. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/nl.png) ret(Z,T) - TANL1, WGT season3, Best 03,05,08,0916. Fisheye(P) - WCG03 2nd, Best 02,03,04,05,0617. Smuft(P) - TLT1, Best 01,02,0318. Yosh(T) - Best 01,02,05,07,0919. Asmodey(R,P) - PGC2, OSL participant(Sky2001), Best 00,01,0220. Testie(R) - Best(hacked before 03) 03,04,05,06, PlayIT, Ace21. Super(T) - Best 05,06,08,09, Chinese tournaments22. F91(Z) - Best 05,06,07,08,09, Chinese tournaments23. Iefnaij(P) - Stamina, TSL1, Best 07,08,0924. Nazgul(P) - PGC3 , OCL participant, Best 01,02,0325. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/au.png) Legionnaire(P) - PL-Allkill, Courage, WCG05 3rd, Best 03,04,0526. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/ua.png) White-ra(P) - Best 06,07,08,0927. Froz(T) - Best 01,02,03,0428. Assem(T) - GGL1, Best 03,04,0529. NTT(T) - WCG00 3rd Best 99,00,0130. NonY(P) - Spirit, TSL2 Best 07,08,0931. IdrA(T) - Valor, ESWC Best 09I've followed the scene pretty much from the start and this is more or less the 31 of the best players in their respective primes. I've included some of their achievements that I remember. I didnt really think about taking Idra since his reign was so short, but he was very dominant in the end. Top 5 are oldschool players who were among the best in the world in their prime - not just the best foreigners. With the exception of Elky they also excelled with every race and were randoming in several tournaments. Grrrr and Elkys achievements in progaming speak for themselves(1st and 4th in OSLs respectively). Slayers KBK victory also stands out, but Maynard and Sven do not have the same accomplishments and because of this I'll enlighten you abit about these great players. Maynard was considered the best player before Grrrr started dominating and went by the nickname "God" among the best players on the Kali server (the alternative to playing on B.net back then with better latency). In terms of achievements Maynard didnt do too much but he introduced a gameplay with strong focus on economy and overwhelming the opponent with sheer numbers rather than trying to outcontrol him. For example the term "Maynarding" is still used today as a synonym for worker transfer. The textbook example of this was done in the battlereport (there werent replays back then) between Maynard and Grrrr in the USA vs Canada tournament back in summer 1999 covered by gamegurus.net. Maynard(6) was playing zerg against Grrrrs(9) protoss on Lost Temple. Maynard opened conservatively with a 12 hatch in his main (zealot rushes were extremely popular back then) and teched to 2 hatch hydra, harassing Grrrrs expand constantly with hydradancing using only small guerilla groups rather than his whole army to negate storm-efficiency. While he was doing this Maynard consumed the map with a low saturation of workers on every expand, continously transfering most of them to new expands as soon as he expanded to them. He did this because the efficiency of the workers are higher the lower saturation you have. Of course this means you need more expands than you would normally have to get the same income, but your army would be bigger because you would need less workers (than with a normal high worker saturation) to maintain an equal economy. He won the game after about 25-30 minutes with pure hydras, and because his saturation was so low I remember his 3rd expand going dry before his natural. He strongly influenced Grrrr and Grrrr himself has in several interviews said that he considered Maynard better than him even after going to Korea. Maynard was also living as a progamer in Korea for a short time. Slayer and Sven are considered some of the most talented players to ever play the game and were practicing with many of the best progamers in their era - H.O.T, Yellow, V-Gundam, Oddysay, KimWanChul, IntoTheRain, Love30.D.O.M, TheMarine, Foru, and so forth. They were also practice partners with Garimto when he was preparing for his match against Boxer in the Sky2002 OSL (Garimto was a also a part of the GG# team). Sven was even telling him which strategy he should use, and indeed Garimto went ahead and used it. There are parallels to draw from the Maynard-Grrrr combo to Sven-Slayer. Like Maynard, Sven had warcraft2 experience and was a dominating player in the early stages of Starcraft. Furthermore, as Maynard influenced Grrrr, Sven formed Slayer from very early stages; sensing his potential, recruiting him to the aBs team (which consisted of the best norwegian players) and practicing with him in person exchanging thoughts and strategies - though Sven was most often the creative one. Like Grrrr won OSL - Slayer won KBK which is an incredible achievement. I'd actually consider KBK a bigger achievement because absolutely any player in the world could play in it and you would be flown to Korea to play in the playoffs - a 256 player single elimination tournament (BO3s in the semi and final). Just as Maynard, Sven didnt have any major achievements and also had short stints were he wasnt playing competitvely, but when he became strongly active again in 2001/2002 he was one of few players (and most likely the only terran) capable of beating SaFT in a BO5 (in the final of the scandinavian allstartour in 2002) and dominated several known korean progamers in online tournaments and practice games. Known for his deadly micro in BW he transitioned his skills into the newly released warcraft3 and played competitively on the highest level before losing interest after a few months. Back to the rest of the top 10: In terms of absolute skill Id put PJ, Lx, Sen, Draco, ret, Idra and Nony high, and in terms of longevity theres little doubt that PJ wins that. Mondragon, Advokate, Draco and Fisheye are also notable ones. In particular Yosh and also ret could have probably been close to them if they didnt take long breaks from playing. Some of the rest of my choices for top 10 are certainly arguable and I will give some reasoning for picking SaFT, Blackman and Androide. PJ and Mondragon are there mostly for their longevity and I wont write about them - they're understandably quite known by everyone due to their recent activity. My reason for having SaFT so high was that in his prime he would beat Boxer several times who was the best player in the world at that time. He also dominated the WGTour ladder with like 90-8 in stats. Dont believe me ? Check this link http://web.archive.org/web/20020405173616/sc.wgtour.com/ladder/profile_player.php?id=4904 (it takes a while before it loads). He was extremely consistent and quite possibly the best PvTer in the world in 2001/2002 including progamers. His PvP wasnt lagging far behind and his PvZ had 40 minute slugfests against the best zerg in korea then - ChoJJa. Blackman is so high because his heavy macro oriented style pioneered Zerg in his prime. He was also one of few zerg players being fast enough to manage Zerg on island maps - where most other zergs would complain about imbalance. You would have tons of players copying him in 2003, and the wgtour ladder was flooded with zerg players after his 3rd place at WCG in 2002. Tomson (a quite famous polish player) switched from playing terran, copied Blackmans 1hatch,2hatch,3hatch8patrol9patrol0patrol hotkey system and became very successful in later years, reaching the final in the scandalous WDTour which progamer Oversky won with maphack. Blackman didnt qualify for the WCG again before in 2005 (Poland had an incredible amount of good players 2003-2005, only Sweden in 2001 is comparable) and still managed to show good play albeit not as dominant as before because his early game was average. Androide is so high because his 2nd place at WCG in 2005 came at a point where progamers were rapidly surpassing foreigners skillwise, and when he knocked out Silent_Control in a dominanting style right after Control had beaten Xellos in a BO3 it looked very much like a foreigner could win WCG. Foru was very lucky to win that tournament losing to Slash and Blackman (who utterly crushed him) in the groups, and then barely squeezing out 2-1 vs Sen and then 2-1 vs Storm (chinese zerg). Unfortunatly his best matchup was PvT and he ended up beating Androide fairly easy in the final. Since that PJ was the only foreigner entering the final in WCG but very few had faith in him as he was up against Stork in Stork in what was Storks ace MU. Androide thus represented the last realistic hope that a foreigner could win WCG. PJ and LX have killed most korean progamers in tournaments in modern times(post 2005, covered in my blog) but they've also played in more tournaments containing progamers. Damn. Didnt intend for this post to become this big. Anyways that's my thoughts on this subject. | ||
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
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Lightningbullet
United States507 Posts
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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horseoverking
United States19 Posts
if you talk about talent - probably froz, androide and ret | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Haven't seen you post in forever! | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On December 17 2010 13:51 horseoverking wrote: after the skill gap between koreans and foreigners became evident only 4-5 players ever rivaled some of the progamers mechanically - androide, idra, arguably ret and some of the chinese (pj and lx). Others succeeded quite a few times with solid thought-out plays and stellar execution, nony is the best example if you talk about talent - probably froz, androide and ret Don't forget about Nony, he has always been a great mechanical player. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
* 1st place WCG Russia 2009 * 1st place DreamHack Winter 2009 Sweden | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
IdrA, Mondragon, Grrr, Nony, Ret, Incontrol Legionnaire Androide and Brat_OK were also pretty good. | ||
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tryummm
774 Posts
On December 17 2010 07:03 SubtleArt wrote: PJ was perhaps the most skilled non-korean. He's retired now, but he was the best chinese player and even took games off players like Bisu and Savior at WCG. Yeah, through cheese and completely unnatural play compared to how Koreans play. I'd like to see PJ play Bisu if Bisu had the opportunity to watch some of his PVP VODS before the match, because you know PJ has watched Bisu play plenty. | ||
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greenDron
Korea (South)94 Posts
are there any foreigners still playing broodwar??? or who is still competitive, not really interested in sc2. I'm guessing basically none? anyone know? | ||
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JustQuitWarcraftIII
United States679 Posts
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nA.Inky
United States794 Posts
But nobody seems to have answered the second part of the original question: who are the best foreigners NOW? It seems like most everyone that has been listed already has retired from BW (or am I wrong?). Love to hear about it. Nick/InkMeister | ||
Spazer
Canada8029 Posts
On December 17 2010 15:14 greenDron wrote: so are there any foreigners still playing broodwar??? or who is still competitive, not really interested in sc2. I'm guessing basically none? anyone know? The release of sc2 essentially killed the foreign bw scene since all the players moved over to the new game. There's still a few playing bw, but it's certainly not many. Going through this year's WCG finals and prelims is probably your best bet to look for them. | ||
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
Edit: I'll have to agree with intrigue, Guybrush's post is pretty much Fact. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
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AltaiR_
Korea (South)922 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + oh snap shitbus here we come. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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ssregi-
Korea (South)146 Posts
On December 17 2010 15:55 BalliSLife wrote: Who is better between PJ and Mondragon? Yo homnie Pj beats Stork and Savior in their good day | ||
Antoine
United States7481 Posts
On December 17 2010 15:24 Spazer wrote: The release of sc2 essentially killed the foreign bw scene since all the players moved over to the new game. There's still a few playing bw, but it's certainly not many. Going through this year's WCG finals and prelims is probably your best bet to look for them. It's probably a chinese player, would be hard to say exactly who though. | ||
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O-ops
United States4236 Posts
On December 17 2010 13:51 Guybrush wrote: Im surprised noone has mentioned Advokate taking a game of Jaedong in WCG 2009. Imo that's almost bigger than PJ beating Savior in 2007 eventhough that was a BO3. Im pretty sure it was revealed in an interview that they asked Jaedong for a game the night before when JD visited Advo and the other foreigners (jokingly, of course. But you never know). The Chinese SC scene is pretty much unknown, but PJ, lx, and F91 stood out on the few occasion we see them play. Outside of China, we got Grrr, Elky, Assem, Leg, Nazgul, Rekrul, Mondi, Draco, Sen, Artosis (lol), Advokate, Strelok, Haypro, Idra, Nony, and a bunch of other people that i couldn't remember off the top of my head, who were outstanding in the period that they were active. | ||
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ZZangDreamjOy
Canada959 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
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rift
1819 Posts
A brief history of the foreigners who went to Korea. http://www.teamliquid.net/tsld/ ELO and leagues, up to the last foreigner tournament, the Pokerstrategy.com TSL. In my own opinion, the most successful or "the greatest of all time": P: Grrrr... T: ElkY Z: Mondragon ...and the highest overall skill, "the best" at the end: P: Pj, NonY if you don't consider Chinese players foreigners T: IdrA Z: ret | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2744 Posts
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StutteR
United States1903 Posts
Nony got to the finals of his first courage tournament. Idra never even competed with koreans afaik.[/QUOTE lol remember when he beat GoRush is OSL or MSL prelims after playing SC2 in order to keep his progaming license? | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
On December 17 2010 19:24 Navane wrote: Nony got to the finals of his first courage tournament. Idra never even competed with koreans afaik. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/600_IdrA/games | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27134 Posts
He mentioned Hellghost, who might not make into onto your list from acheivements, as someone who possessed great skill.I would argue that Froz belongs higher up on your list, even if only for 2-0ing Boxer at WCG. At the time that seemed impossible, but it happened. He is also someone that could pick up the game at any time and be really really good again in a day, much like Smuft. | ||
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Xtal
Haiti385 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7856 Posts
He was a bit the western Boxer. He dominated for a very very long time, was very charismatic and at the end could still take a game from someone like Sea from time to time. Idra tried very hard, and got the best mechanics a foreigner ever had, but never understood that mind game and strategy are somehow important. He was very good at repeating standart games but had no imagination whatsoever. Combined with a really shitty scouting, he kept failing all the important things he tried in quite a sad fashion. | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada966 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On December 17 2010 20:26 Biff The Understudy wrote: I would say Mondragon. He was a bit the western Boxer. He dominated for a very very long time, was very charismatic and at the end could still take a game from someone like Sea from time to time. Idra tried very hard, and got the best mechanics a foreigner ever had, but never understood that mind game and strategy are somehow important. He was very good at repeating standart games but had no imagination whatsoever. Combined with a really shitty scouting, he kept failing all the important things he tried in quite a sad fashion. Do you realize how much Idra won in the last year or so of BW? | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
he was insanely good, still is | ||
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
On December 17 2010 20:26 Biff The Understudy wrote: I would say Mondragon. He was a bit the western Boxer. He dominated for a very very long time, was very charismatic and at the end could still take a game from someone like Sea from time to time. Idra tried very hard, and got the best mechanics a foreigner ever had, but never understood that mind game and strategy are somehow important. He was very good at repeating standart games but had no imagination whatsoever. Combined with a really shitty scouting, he kept failing all the important things he tried in quite a sad fashion. Even when starcraft 2 beta came out, idra still won gorush and lost to jaehoon 2-1 in the OSL qualifiers this year june. This is no easy feat considering the fact that he had been playing starcraft 2 beta all along. | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27134 Posts
On December 17 2010 21:02 Holgerius wrote: Do you realize how much Idra won in the last year or so of BW? The level of competition in the last year of BW is hard to compare with the rest of BW's history. | ||
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Coulthard
Greece3359 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
On December 17 2010 21:38 Coulthard wrote: In terms of acomplishments its by far Elky and Grrr but in terms of pure skill peak its Draco, Mondragon, PJ, Adroide, LX, ret, F91 I agree with this post. I don't know how much people have watched Draco's replays from when he was in Korea, but he practiced with players who are now A-teamers and he was putting a hell of a fight. I always wondered how far he could go if he stayed there. Replays were posted in these threads, but links to download them are now down and I didn't save any  http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=74188 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75012 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=76732 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79160 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79409 It would be cool if anyone have them on their comp to reupload once again. | ||
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 17 2010 13:31 Guybrush wrote: 20.Testie(R) - Best(hacked before 03) 03,04,05,06, PlayIT, Ace Your post is absolutely amazing, but you're extremely underselling Testie's accomplishments. Need I remind you he was voted Clanbase #1 player? | ||
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IceCube
Croatia1403 Posts
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BroOd
Austin10831 Posts
On December 17 2010 12:45 Khol wrote: Abuser Forever: Yosh? Yosh was better than all of those Terran players that everyone assumed to be good. He was the best Terran in USA. Years of the highest skilled play in NA and now he's known as a "Abuser". I find it rather disgusting, really. It was two games and both games were played straight up. That just disturbs me. Drone made an interesting post about Yosh: On December 23 2009 07:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: actually yosh has a bigger history as a cheater than hmm literally every single other top player ever to grace starcraft. he abused in gamei ladder, he abused in kbk, he abused in wgt ladder, he played 1v1 tournaments back in the day (before replays) where hattan would observe and in the event that yosh lost the game, hattan and yosh would both claim that yosh won. he maphacked in the compusa gamefixx tournament.. yosh has abused every time he has had the opportunity to abuse, and him being perceived as a legitimate player by everyone who started playing bw after 2003 is a complete disaster. don't get me wrong - he is extremely skilled (and always has been), but he has been cheating or abusing for more than 9 years now. that's more abuse for a longer period of time than _anyone else who plays brood war_. | ||
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
On December 17 2010 09:16 Boblion wrote: Best Achievements: Grrr Most bm: NoHope First protoss fan: Idra Favourite clown: MisterZZZ Strongest foreigner: Incontrol Cookie time: Cloud Best nickname: Testie False modesty champion and waffle award: Mondragon Top mentally challenged player: GosI[Terran] Abuser forever: Yosh BBQ sauce: Dreiven Kimbo award: HovZ Best haircut: Elky #1 BGH player: Surfer4life Oblivion medal: Dino Australian starcraft player: Legionnaire Best storm drops and arbiter play: Nony Haha, I just noticed this. Funnily enough, there's at least a few more of those awards that could go to Surfer ^^ Also, you're missing "#1 Terran m&m control on Hunters in USA" award. | ||
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Kyhol
Canada2574 Posts
I still believe that he's a great player. I'd like to apologize to the Boblion. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
Crazy game. Oh and Pj didn't beat sAviOr at his prime in WCG 2007, that was when he slumped after his final vs Bisu and shortly after getting that embarrassing loss to FBH. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On December 17 2010 08:14 lungo wrote: Grrr for winning OSL Elky for being the latest foreigner to be on the kespa top30list Mondi for his many year domination PJ for his godly pvt LX was good SEn also dominated for a while Legionaire from AUS, probaly being the latest foreigner top play a kespa television match? Idra was probably the best player in the end of the SC era (since sc2 came out) Ret and nony were / are good i liked JF as well Nony was the best foreigner when everyone made the switch to SC2, watch the TSL2. On December 17 2010 08:52 ssregi- wrote: Idra The best Not quite, nice try. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7856 Posts
On December 17 2010 21:02 Holgerius wrote: Do you realize how much Idra won in the last year or so of BW? Yeah, great career, great achievements... Let's see... Failed to qualify in any major league in Korea, Failed to go to A team after 3 years, Failed to play a single Kespa TV match, Lost to a foreigner in WCG 0-2, Failed in TSL1 early on Failed in TSL2 although he has 600 more practice time and experience than anybody else. He won a lot of small tournaments. Great. If he had been Korean, we would refer to him as a scrub who never achieved anything at all. Probably none of us would have ever heard of him. No, sorry, Idra has been a very very unsuccesfull progamer. He played amazingly, had fantastic mechanics, but something has always been missing, and this something seems to have been essential. | ||
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omgbbq2
Canada169 Posts
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jtbem
Canada1404 Posts
was just watching tsl1 games couple days ago. so sick im a fanboy | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On December 18 2010 01:36 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Crazy game. Oh and Pj didn't beat sAviOr at his prime in WCG 2007, that was when he slumped after his final vs Bisu and shortly after getting that embarrassing loss to FBH. Being a Savior fan I'd like to just lie and say "Savior was slumping so it's okay." But that's not the truth. If you look at after Savior's loss to Bisu, Savior reinvented his ZvP. His peak ZvP ELO was reached on Nov 23, 2007, while WCG took place in October. The truth is that PJ defeated Savior while Savior was on the longest ZvP winstreak of his career. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
There are too many prominent names, lots of which are in the database. Anyway, I decided to compose a comprehensive list based on their regions. Notable players in chronological order from country (I will try to update this as best as I can if I think of anything else): Canada 1. Grrrr... 2. Smuft 3. XiaOzI 4. Testie 5. JF *After these guys you have players like Paul, Fire, AeriALs, Mora, VeG, TT1, Yan, Fayth, Pride, Taurent, Kiwi, Korn, CraZy, etc. U.S.A: 1. Whear 2. Maynard 3. Tsunami 4. Froz 5. Assem 6. *NonY/IdrA (it wouldn't be fair if I didn't include these two, although their prominence to the top only came a year before SC2 came along) *The States had many players who faired well. This list includes: {PH}Pillars, [9]Kain/Kain-The-Feared, [9]eVERLAST, Zileas, SloG4, Day[9], Rekrul, Cypressman, Incontrol, Nyoken, iNkA, Lz, Blackjack, G5, Agent_911, etc. They were well known for their good 2v2 teams like Poland and Germany. U.K. 1. MidiaN 2. Tillerman Jamie was just as good as Mondragon. Netherlands 1. Ret 2. Twisted 3. Nazgul 4. Strafe 5. NTT Norway: 1. Slayer 2. sVEN 3. StinGeR 4. Eriador 5. WhistleR * Notable players: ErlinG and Oystein. France 1. ElkY 2. Chobo 3. Sarens 4. TuZeR 5. MoMaN Chile 1. KNiF 2. KeiR 3. DinOt 4. GoTuNk 5. KiLLeR Malaysia 1. JohnRambo 2. MarinE Peru 1. Fenix 2. CaStrO 3. sMacker 4. HanDy 5. Darki Romania 1. Shaman 2. FlaF 3. UltraLinG 4. Praetor 5. Radu *Another really strong nation during clanwars. Other players include: Ryko, AnDrEi, Jack and DeathAngel. Mexico 1. GosI[Terran] 2. BlasT 3. StYm 4. DeSka 5. NeO)asS Croatia 1. Ptak Australia 1. Leggionaire oG)Gabriel and StarHunter deserves a shoutout too. Hungary 1. Ace 2. KaShu 3. Sziky 4. Cameleon 5. Gorky *Another very strong nation. Other players include: Naib, Dromedar and iNFERNO. Russia 1. Androide 2. A2 3. Brat_OK 4. Ex 5. Escape *Other notable mentions: Asmodey, uT)Phellan[S2], Ranger[pG], Bruce, Pomi, Rondo, Casper, etc. Greece 1. sataNik 2. Zato 3. Coulthard 4. TaSSa 5. DeA]eX[ Germany 1. Fisheye 2. BrEaKdOwN 3. GeNtLeMaN 4. Mondragon 5. Kolll *Germany was a superpower for a very long time and there was a good reason for this. Their list of talent is as long as Poland's: Infernal, Ace, Socke[pG], heXer[pG], GhosTa, GoOdy, HoRRoR, Selector, [pG]Cope, [pG]Dalailamer, [pG]DeliCato, etc. Also worth noting, Mondragon and Testie formed one of the best 2v2 teams of all time. Germany also has monster 2v2's just like the USA. Lithuania 1. Arew 2. Anon 3. Kr China 1. Lx 2. PJ 3. Super 4. Vulture 5. F91 *It was very unfortunate that we would have so many latency problems when playing with the Chinese and as a result their players mostly played on the Chinese servers. Other notable players include: hbq, Beckham, RushGooN, Phoenix66, CCQ, Jaystar, ChinaTTTT, etc. Taiwan 1. sEn Portugal 1. Syz 2. MiLLs Czech Republic 1. PredY 2. Crow 3. Dark_Caleb 4. Destroyer 5. Jump Poland 1. Draco 2. Blackman 3. Dreiven 4. MaNa 5. Spawn *Poland was another super power like Germany. Other players include: Paranoid, SunCow, Dunaj, MistrZZZ, Raven, Slider, Tarson, Sawyer, tomsOn, sYs, Moonshine etc. Also worth nothing, they were one of the hardest teams to play against in a Nation War because you would never know who the heck they were going to bring. -_- Ukraine 1. White-Ra 2. Strelok 3. DIMAGA 4. yAn 5. ALF *Ukraine was another really strong nation. Other players include: hanniGan, Enemy, etc. Finland 1. MadClaw 2. nApoLeon 3. Ovvi Turkey 1. ExGoSu 2. iLLe Italy 1. ClouD 2. Cafone I know I'm forgetting somebody, but I cannot remember. Bulgaria 1. Beast 2. Lamer 3. DIDI8 4. ENJoY 5. Zelias Other notables include: Technics and ready. Belarus 1. LoWeLy Kazakhstan 1. TemujiN Argentia 1. Pato 2. Sabbath Sweden 1. SaFT 2. WiLLEt[pG] 3. Daaman 4. TreK 5. Naugrim *Another incredibly hard one. Other notable players include: [pG]MaDFroG, HayprO, KaaZ, Mireille, DaZe, ZpuX, Gurram, Morrow, etc. Brazil 1. Hellghost 2. Odin 3. ReasoN 4. MasteR 5. StarDeath *Kelsen is the only other player I can think of. I know I must be missing somebody. Spain 1. ZelotITO 2. SquaLL 3. Suker 4. ALFA | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
EDIT: also, please don't include known map hackers like Testie in the "best of all time" list, that's just wrong. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10301 Posts
loved when he beat Savior in WCG 2007 and took 3 place at the grand finals, good times <3 | ||
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powerfulcheeses
Canada101 Posts
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
G5 needs more love for his absolutely insane PvT. Nyoken was also one of the top foreigners but underachieved in tournaments, but he was in the By. clan and tore shit up. | ||
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wooozy
3813 Posts
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On December 17 2010 15:02 tryummm wrote: Yeah, through cheese and completely unnatural play compared to how Koreans play. I'd like to see PJ play Bisu if Bisu had the opportunity to watch some of his PVP VODS before the match, because you know PJ has watched Bisu play plenty. PJ is really good mechanically and plays really really smart,(ive watched hundreds of his reps..) he makes mistakes oncei n a while but they are very few. he plays really unorthodox which makes him hard to predict | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
Elky and Grrr really showed it though as did a few other players | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 18 2010 06:24 HalfAmazing wrote: You guys are mostly getting the chronology and relative skill levels for their respective playing periods mixed up. 1999-2001: Slayer, sVEN, Maynard, NTT, ElkY, Grrrr... were the best non-Korean players in the world. Slayer, NTT and Grrrr... were better than almost all Korean progamers and were better than the other players mentioned. ElkY always played in Slayer and NTT's shadow and it took their retirement for him to shine. There were no US players at the time who were even close to being on par with the best European and Korean players. Slayer is the best non-Korean of all time, and to put NTT at #5 on the best Dutch players list is just offensive. :-) Shit, we're talking about guys who quit playing because they got bored of being so dominant. Korean progamers would practice with these guys, lose horribly and then go on to win tournaments the next day. It was a different era. EDIT: also, please don't include known map hackers like Testie in the "best of all time" list, that's just wrong. You are looking at the glass half empty rather than half full. As for the list I provided, I wouldn't read too much in it other than which players stood out like sore thumbs for their given countries. I used a variety of criteria in choosing which players deserved to make it on a shortlist based on the following: - chronological, for example it is much easier listing Germany this way, because they had so many - contribution to their countries - made it to Korea - tournament wins - clan wars/nation wars - ladder - players I know off the top of my head As for the Netherlands.. Why does Ret come to mind first? (I should have left my side notes in so there was no confusion). Anyway, the answer is simple. He has been the most active for the longest and when he was he was hands down one of the best players our scene had to offer. So take my 'rankings' with a grain of salt. Hell, I wouldn't even call it a ranking. Everyone who made my list is special in my opinion and it doesn't necessarily mean one is above the other. It's more or less a way to keep things organized. As for the bolded part, that's very misleading especially in the case of NTT. It's a cop out. Testie is one of the few ex-hackers who deserves to be recognized. If you were around while the kid was playing legit you would know he was still a beast without hacks. He had what most players don't. A raw talent and good understanding of the game. | ||
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astalkulo
United States444 Posts
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rift
1819 Posts
On December 18 2010 02:54 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah, great career, great achievements... Let's see... Failed to qualify in any major league in Korea, Failed to go to A team after 3 years, Failed to play a single Kespa TV match, Lost to a foreigner in WCG 0-2, Failed in TSL1 early on Failed in TSL2 although he has 600 more practice time and experience than anybody else. He won a lot of small tournaments. Great. If he had been Korean, we would refer to him as a scrub who never achieved anything at all. Probably none of us would have ever heard of him. No, sorry, Idra has been a very very unsuccesfull progamer. He played amazingly, had fantastic mechanics, but something has always been missing, and this something seems to have been essential. From your posts it seems like you have something personal against IdrA.Your dislike of him as a player is warping your assessment of his ability. It's pretty much accepted that he was the best foreigner in 2009. NonY came out of retirement to play TSL2 and beat him 3-2 in a close series with some well-known incidents. Yes, if he was Korean "probably none of us would have ever heard of him", but the same could be said of ret, nony or almost any other top foreigner of the past several years. What makes them stand out is that they aren't Korean | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 18 2010 12:02 rift wrote: From your posts it seems like you have something personal against IdrA.Your dislike of him as a player is warping your assessment of his ability. It's pretty much accepted that he was the best foreigner in 2009. NonY came out of retirement to play TSL2 and beat him 3-2 in a close series with some well-known incidents. Yes, if he was Korean "probably none of us would have ever heard of him", but the same could be said of ret, nony or almost any other top foreigner of the past several years. What makes them stand out is that they aren't Korean Chinese or taiwanese progamer > idra anyday. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
On December 18 2010 14:50 MuffinDude wrote: PJ by far. Hes a protoss that beat effort and maybe bisu? Chinese or taiwanese progamer > idra anyday. i remembered that game of Idra vs F91 .. so awesome .. idra is great but not THAT great | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
On December 17 2010 19:42 Manifesto7 wrote: Legit post GuyBrush. I had the pleasure of randomly drinking with Sven in Korea last year. He was a very cool guy He mentioned Hellghost, who might not make into onto your list from acheivements, as someone who possessed great skill.I would argue that Froz belongs higher up on your list, even if only for 2-0ing Boxer at WCG. At the time that seemed impossible, but it happened. He is also someone that could pick up the game at any time and be really really good again in a day, much like Smuft. Froz could definitely be higher and while his 2-0 against Boxer was huge, it's his consistensy in winning multiple WCG USAs that stand out for me. I wont put too much weight on him barely practicing because it's a very subjective issue, but he was certainly able to handle pressure from playing in live tournaments extremely well. Could have had better achievements at the main event though, but yeah he'll probably be remembered for those wins against Boxer in a time when Boxer was bonjwa .As for Hellghost, I think he's a small notch below these players as he wasnt ever considered to be top5 outside Korea at any point. Speaking of which I've made another list of 100 so called A-class nonkoreans - players who like Hellghost were very good but never the best. If the top 31 nonkoerans of alltime were S-Class players these would be A-Class players, not considered the best at any point but somewhere between top5 and top20 at various points. There are teamtags on some of these players and they're sorted in chronological order from when they first started getting noticed. Zileas(P) - Best 98 Agent_911(R) - Best 98,99 INCinerate(R) - Best 98,99 D23-Gad/Gadianton(P,R) 98,99 [9]Kain/Kain-The-Feared(P) - Best 98,99 [9]eVERLAST(R) - B.net ladder champion, Best 98,99 :+:jolly:+: (Z,R) - Best 98,99,00![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/uk.png) Tillerman(Z,R) - Best 98,99,00 [5th]Fire(P) - Best 99 {PH}Expo(R) - Best 99 {PH}Pillars(P) - Best 99,00 Multifaith(R) - Best 99,00 006Trevelyan(Z) - Best 99,00 [9]Thor(Z,R) - Best 99,00 {PH!}BOO!(Z,R) - Best 99,00 Crexis/Chris_Low(R) Best 99,00 D22-Soso(R) - Best 99,00 (orky)~soul~(P,R) 2nd wsop main event 2008 - Best 99,00,01,02![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/bg.png) [o]Mr.X(Z) - Best 99,00,01,02 KeNKa(T,R) - Best 99,00,01,02,03 {iM}Daaman(R) - Best 99,00,01,02,03,04,05 CQ2000(T) Best 00,01 MaDFroG[pG](Z) - Best 00,01,02 DkH.Kalaschni(Z) - WGT season1(old french WGT), Best 00,01,02 Kovax[pG](P) - Best 00,01,02 GreatZyneck(Z,R) - Best 00,01,02,03![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/gr.png) sataNik(Z,R) - Best 00,02,03,04,05,06 DIDI8[pG](P) - Best 01,02 JessE[pG](Z) - PGC1, Best 01,02 Ranger[pG]/GoodlyDwarf(T,R) - Best 01,02 Whear(T) - Best 01,02![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/dk.png) [Feel]..Arch(T) - Best 01,02,03 eSu.DeliCato(Z,R) - Best 01,02,03 Ogerdaniel/TameTheSheep(R) - Best 01,02,03 WiLLEt[pG](P) - Best 01,02,03 TomsOn[pG](T,Z) - Best 01,02,03,04 eSu.StinGeR(R) - WGT season2, Best 01,02,03,05![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/br.png) HellGhost[pG]/HG(T,R) - Best 01,02,03,04,05![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/mx.png) Bz.BlasT(P) - Best 01,02,03,04,05 uT)Annihilator(Z) - Best 02,03 sYs(DUNE)(P) - Best 02,03 Rekrul[pG] - Best 02,03,04 uT)Phellan[S2](Z) - Best 02,03,04 Fizban(GN)(R) - Best 02,03,04 TreK-PL(R) - Dreamhack, Best 02,03,04,05![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/es.png) ZelotITO(P) - WGT season6, Best 02,03,04,05,06![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/ro.png) SoL.Shaman(T,R) - Best 02,03,04,05,06 SuKeR[pG](T,R) - Best 02,03,04,05,06 rS.Magoo(P) - Best 03,04 Bz.Beast/3wD.Christian(T) - WCG04 3rd, Best 03,04 Kimthan(Z,T) - Best 03,04 [S.Top]Angel(P) - Best 03,04,05 SoL.Dunaj(P) - Best 03,04,05 WE.WYW(Z) - Best 03,04,05 Lammerman(Z,R) - Best 03,04,05![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/lt.png) Anon(Z) - WGT season11, Best 03,04,05 MYM.Raven(T) - Best 03,04,05,06 MYM.yAn[S2](T,P) - Best 03,04,05,06 ToT)Spawn((T) - Best 03,04,05,06![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/fi.png) ToT)Ovvi((Z) - WGT season1, Best 03,04,05,06 BrEaKdOwN[pG](Z) - WGT season4, Best 03,04,05,06,07 ToT)MidiaN((Z) - Best 03,04,05,07 ToT)XiaOzI(/Fk.Timothy(Z) - WGT season5, Best 03,04,05,06,07,08,09 rS.DAy[9](Z) - Best 04,05,07 uT)Clawson/Arcneon/Madclaw (P,Z) - WGT season12, Best 04,05,06 MYM.HBQ(T) - Best 04,05,06,07 iG.EX(T) - Best 04,05,06,07 [S.Top]Storm(Z) - 4th WCG, Best 05 ToT)Avernum((T) - Best 05,06 MYM.SunCow/Wook(Z,P) - Best 05,06 ToT)Odin((T,P) - Best 05,06 rS.DaZe(T) - WGT season13, Dreamhack, Best 05,06 [S.Top]Phoenix66(T) Best 05,06,07 Play.LameR(T) - Best 05,06,07 SCI)DP_R(Z) - Best 05,06,07 S.C.EVA(Z) - Best 05,06,07,08 iG.KaaZ(Z) - Best 05,06,09 RushGoon/Never(T) Best 05,06,07,08,09 ToT)SquaLL((Z) - WGT season10, Best 05,06,07,08,09 3D.Strelok(T) - WGTseason14,WCG08 3rd, Best 05,06,07,08,09 iG.Paranoid/ToT)Gosia((Z) - Best 06,07,08 ChinaTTTT(T) Best 06,07,08 Jaystar(P) - Best 06,07,09 BW-SarenS(T) - Best 06,08,09 88)HayprO(Z,T) - Dreamhack, Best 06,07,08,09 Toodming(Z) Best 06,07,08,09![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/it.png) ToT)ClouD((P) - Best 07,08 Lovett(P) Best 07,08![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/pe.png) CastrO(Z) - Best 07,08,09 MYM.Dreiven(P) - Best 07,08,09 RoX.DIMAGA(Z) - Best 07,08,09 Fenix(T,P) - Best 07,08,09 MistrZZZ(P,R) - Best 07,08,09 Vulture(P) Best 07,08,09 ToT)iNfeRnaL((P) - Best 07,08,09 MYM.Yayba(P) - Best 07,08,09 Fengzi(Z) Best 08,09 BRAT_OK(T) - Best 08,09 Naugrim(Z) - Best 08,09 kolll(Z) - Best 09 | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
On December 17 2010 23:28 Jibba wrote: Your post is absolutely amazing, but you're extremely underselling Testie's accomplishments. Need I remind you he was voted Clanbase #1 player? Damn! I also forgot that he was 1st place WGT (Poll) Voted By Most To Win TLT (31%) 2nd is Other with 23% and 3rd id Mondi with 13% | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
if you define it as someone who had the highest skill ever, then it was Idra if you define it as somebody who had relative dominance over other foreigners, or were the closest to koreans, it would be somebody else for those who argue idra isn't best are just idiots jealous just because he is trash talker. There is no doubt skillwise idra was best foreigner ever. Those arguing that he lost to Nony in TSL2 don't remember the games nony won were pretty much cheese builds and a pathetic mistake by idra. But for me personally, the foreigner that was most impressive, or was quite close to the koreans at any point in time was draco. Anyone remember his game against midas in WCG? | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
Edit: I don't know anything about the Chinese players | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
On December 18 2010 14:50 MuffinDude wrote: PJ by far. Hes a protoss that beat effort and maybe bisu? Chinese or taiwanese progamer > idra anyday. Agree, but some people only consider westerners as foreigners for some reason | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
On December 18 2010 16:41 Release wrote: PJ, Period. No one else (except maybe mondragon) was considered good enough to beat koreans on a regular basis. In WCG 2007, his wins vs savior were from Savior fixing matches, but the win (vs stork) in 2009 was completely legit. I recall reading that Savior was fixing matches to secure a Korean medal sweep, not to purposely lose. But yeah, PJ is probably the most skilled foreign even if Lx always beats him PvP. Certainly not the accomplished though compared to the early foreigners who competed on equal footing with top Koreans. | ||
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ondik
Czech Republic2908 Posts
On December 17 2010 09:16 Boblion wrote: Best storm drops: Nony LOL. wonder how many people got this. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5496 Posts
On December 18 2010 17:04 chenchen wrote: I recall reading that Savior was fixing matches to secure a Korean medal sweep, not to purposely lose. But yeah, PJ is probably the most skilled foreign even if Lx always beats him PvP. Certainly not the accomplished though compared to the early foreigners who competed on equal footing with top Koreans. He's talking about the match fixing scandal with bet sites etc. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7856 Posts
On December 18 2010 12:02 rift wrote: From your posts it seems like you have something personal against IdrA.Your dislike of him as a player is warping your assessment of his ability. It's pretty much accepted that he was the best foreigner in 2009. NonY came out of retirement to play TSL2 and beat him 3-2 in a close series with some well-known incidents. Yes, if he was Korean "probably none of us would have ever heard of him", but the same could be said of ret, nony or almost any other top foreigner of the past several years. What makes them stand out is that they aren't Korean Well, I don't like Idra at all, but that's not the problem. Take Mondi. Mondi is an amateur who dominated for years, won tournaments, and took game to progamers on a regular basis for ages. He was a leader of one of the biggest clan also. Idra is the contrary. Idra is a professional who has failed for three years not only to do anything at all on the professional stage, but hasn't been able to win the biggest amateur tourneys at his time. There is no doubt that Idra had incredible skill before switching to SC2 (but which talented player wouldn't with the training he had), and that he was the best player around on many aspects: mechanics, knowledge of the game, etc... He is just not the one that I would remember in ten years, especially if you compare him to people like Sen or Mondi. For me, something has always been missing. No vendetta here. | ||
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Art_of_Kill
Zaire1232 Posts
only if u look at specific time zones u can call a few names | ||
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NIIINO
Slovakia1320 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 18 2010 15:46 Guybrush wrote: + Show Spoiler + Froz could definitely be higher and while his 2-0 against Boxer was huge, it's his consistensy in winning multiple WCG USAs that stand out for me. I wont put too much weight on him barely practicing because it's a very subjective issue, but he was certainly able to handle pressure from playing in live tournaments extremely well. Could have had better achievements at the main event though, but yeah he'll probably be remembered for those wins against Boxer in a time when Boxer was bonjwa .As for Hellghost, I think he's a small notch below these players as he wasnt ever considered to be top5 outside Korea at any point. Speaking of which I've made another list of 100 so called A-class nonkoreans - players who like Hellghost were very good but never the best. If the top 31 nonkoerans of alltime were S-Class players these would be A-Class players, not considered the best at any point but somewhere between top5 and top20 at various points. There are teamtags on some of these players and they're sorted in chronological order from when they first started getting noticed. Zileas(P) - Best 98 Agent_911(R) - Best 98,99 INCinerate(R) - Best 98,99 D23-Gad/Gadianton(P,R) 98,99 [9]Kain/Kain-The-Feared(P) - Best 98,99 [9]eVERLAST(R) - B.net ladder champion, Best 98,99 :+:jolly:+: (Z,R) - Best 98,99,00 Tillerman(Z,R) - Best 98,99,00 [5th]Fire(P) - Best 99 {PH}Expo(R) - Best 99 {PH}Pillars(P) - Best 99,00 Multifaith(R) - Best 99,00 006Trevelyan(Z) - Best 99,00 [9]Thor(Z,R) - Best 99,00 {PH!}BOO!(Z,R) - Best 99,00 Crexis/Chris_Low(R) Best 99,00 D22-Soso(R) - Best 99,00 (orky)~soul~(P,R) 2nd wsop main event 2008 - Best 99,00,01,02[o]Mr.X(Z) - Best 99,00,01,02 KeNKa(T,R) - Best 99,00,01,02,03 {iM}Daaman(R) - Best 99,00,01,02,03,04,05 CQ2000(T) Best 00,01 MaDFroG[pG](Z) - Best 00,01,02 DkH.Kalaschni(Z) - WGT season1(old french WGT), Best 00,01,02 Kovax[pG](P) - Best 00,01,02 GreatZyneck(Z,R) - Best 00,01,02,03 sataNik(Z,R) - Best 00,02,03,04,05,06 DIDI8[pG](P) - Best 01,02 JessE[pG](Z) - PGC1, Best 01,02 Ranger[pG]/GoodlyDwarf(T,R) - Best 01,02 Whear(T) - Best 01,02 [Feel]..Arch(T) - Best 01,02,03 eSu.DeliCato(Z,R) - Best 01,02,03 Ogerdaniel/TameTheSheep(R) - Best 01,02,03 WiLLEt[pG](P) - Best 01,02,03 TomsOn[pG](T,Z) - Best 01,02,03,04 eSu.StinGeR(R) - WGT season2, Best 01,02,03,05 HellGhost[pG]/HG(T,R) - Best 01,02,03,04,05 Bz.BlasT(P) - Best 01,02,03,04,05 uT)Annihilator(Z) - Best 02,03 sYs(DUNE)(P) - Best 02,03 uT)Phellan[S2](Z) - Best 02,03,04 Fizban(GN)(R) - Best 02,03,04 TreK-PL(R) - Dreamhack, Best 02,03,04,05 ZelotITO(P) - WGT season6, Best 02,03,04,05,06 SoL.Shaman(T,R) - Best 02,03,04,05,06 SuKeR[pG](T,R) - Best 02,03,04,05,06 rS.Magoo(P) - Best 03,04 Bz.Beast/3wD.Christian(T) - WCG04 3rd, Best 03,04 Kimthan(Z,T) - Best 03,04 [S.Top]Angel(P) - Best 03,04,05 SoL.Dunaj(P) - Best 03,04,05 WE.WYW(Z) - Best 03,04,05 Lammerman(Z,R) - Best 03,04,05 Anon(Z) - WGT season11, Best 03,04,05 MYM.Raven(T) - Best 03,04,05,06 MYM.yAn[S2](T,P) - Best 03,04,05,06 ToT)Spawn((T) - Best 03,04,05,06 ToT)Ovvi((Z) - WGT season1, Best 03,04,05,06 BrEaKdOwN[pG](Z) - WGT season4, Best 03,04,05,06,07 ToT)MidiaN((Z) - Best 03,04,05,07 ToT)XiaOzI(/Fk.Timothy(Z) - WGT season5, Best 03,04,05,06,07,08,09 rS.DAy[9](Z) - Best 04,05,07 uT)Clawson/Arcneon/Madclaw (P,Z) - WGT season12, Best 04,05,06 MYM.HBQ(T) - Best 04,05,06,07 iG.EX(T) - Best 04,05,06,07 [S.Top]Storm(Z) - 4th WCG, Best 05 ToT)Avernum((T) - Best 05,06 MYM.SunCow/Wook(Z,P) - Best 05,06 ToT)Odin((T,P) - Best 05,06 rS.DaZe(T) - WGT season13, Dreamhack, Best 05,06 [S.Top]Phoenix66(T) Best 05,06,07 Play.LameR(T) - Best 05,06,07 SCI)DP_R(Z) - Best 05,06,07 S.C.EVA(Z) - Best 05,06,07,08 iG.KaaZ(Z) - Best 05,06,09 RushGoon/Never(T) Best 05,06,07,08,09 ToT)SquaLL((Z) - WGT season10, Best 05,06,07,08,09 3D.Strelok(T) - WGTseason14,WCG08 3rd, Best 05,06,07,08,09 iG.Paranoid/ToT)Gosia((Z) - Best 06,07,08 ChinaTTTT(T) Best 06,07,08 Skew[Media](T) - Best 06,07,08 Jaystar(P) - Best 06,07,09 BW-SarenS(T) - Best 06,08,09 88)Haypro(Z,T) - Dreamhack, Best 06,07,08,09 Toodming(Z) Best 06,07,08,09 ToT)ClouD((P) - Best 07,08 Lovett(P) Best 07,08 CastrO(Z) - Best 07,08,09 MYM.Dreiven(P) - Best 07,08,09 RoX.DIMAGA(Z) - Best 07,08,09 Fenix(T,P) - Best 07,08,09 MistrZZZ(P,R) - Best 07,08,09 Vulture(P) Best 07,08,09 ToT)Infernal((P) - Best 07,08,09 MYM.Yayba(P) - Best 07,08,09 Fengzi(Z) Best 08,09 Brat_OK(T) - Best 08,09 Naugrim(Z) - Best 08,09 Kolll(Z) - Best 09 You definitely know your Brood War and Vanilla Starcraft, but I would never put Skew anywhere on that list let alone call him the best in 2006-2009. Only place he did well was on ladder and nothing more. I will put him on the close, but no cigar list. Thank you for taking me down memory lane. Everything before 2002 is fuzzy and I cannot believe I forgot the following players: hbq (T) - one of China's all-time greats who resurfaced with MYM in 2005-2006 SunCow (P,Z) - If it weren't for MistrZZZ, he would be Poland's BM champion. Who cares about manner when you are that good? One thing is for sure, he stirred a ton of shit. Gosia/Paranoid (Z) - sick Poland macro Zileas(P) - Best 98 - I'm assuming you are talking about the most underrated American player of all time. He came out of retirement in 2004 with anSWers World when Gorky Island was still in the WGTour Map Pool. Yes he deserves to be recognized too. Remarkably the guy could still play. :+:jolly:+: (Z,R) - Best 98,99,00 - thank you for making me look like an idiot, yeah definitely one of the top guys before replays. Tillerman(Z,R) - Best 98,99,00 - this makes me look like a bigger idiot. MidiaN isn't alone after all. Leader of iN. and all around great player. Agent_911(R) - Best 98,99 - cornerstone of team iN. INCinerate(R) - Best 98,99 - see above eSu.StinGeR(R) - WGT season2, Best 01,02,03,05 - Yeah, I'm an idiot. This guy deserves to go right after Slayer on Norway's list. Bz.BlasT(P) - Best 01,02,03,04,05 - yeah, I'm an idiot. One of the best Mexican players of all time. [9]Kain/Kain-The-Feared(P) - Best 98,99 - one of the best during the beta and onward [9]eVERLAST(R) - B.net ladder champion, Best 98,99 - I think you left out one of the guys from [9] but I cannot remember who! I know you said Thor already. {PH}Pillars(P) - Best 99,00 - I forgot to add him on the American list :/ Sorry Chris. uT)Phellan[S2](Z) - Best 02,03,04 - another big name I forgot :/ Anon(Z) - WGT season11, Best 03,04,05 - Wasn't he from Lithuania? Yeah, he was. Shit more revisions to make. WiLLEt[pG](P) - Best 01,02,03 - Ok, you cannot have a Swedish list without this man. He is the cornerstone of Swedish RTS just like MaDFroG. I knew I was forgetting some [pG] players and now that you said that, I'd like to add some of my own! Ranger[pG] - Russian prodigy Socke[pG] - sick German [pG]MaDFroG - Sweden's pride heXer[pG] - great German player InFiNiTy[pG] - another German (see the pattern?) [pG]GeN - actually you already said this guy :/ [pG]Asmodey - the Russian sensation [pG]blaZe - actually this guy was Korean, but hell he was a lot of entertainment for the foreign scene [pG]DeliCato - actually you already said him :/ [pG]KeNKa - another name you already said [pG]Cope - German [pG]CraZy - cannot for the life of me remember his nationality. I know I was going to add him to my list, but I just cannot remember the country. Wasn't he Canadian? [pG]Dalailamer - German (this is why you cannot list all the German players D: too damn many!) Korn[pG] - Canadian B.C. pride and joy! :D Kiwi[pG] - while I'm on Korn I might as well add this Canadian too [pG]Fire - spreading more Canadian love I have revising to do on my list. X_X | ||
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SLoGgErDoGgEr
Korea (South)340 Posts
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SLoGgErDoGgEr
Korea (South)340 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
See the other page bro. O; | ||
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Joefish
Germany314 Posts
He is a really amazing player and bashed Idra 2:0 at WCG finals 2009 when he was 14 or 15. Overall a pretty good bw player and his young age is always what amazed me. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 19 2010 02:37 Joefish wrote: Kolll. He is a really amazing player and bashed Idra 2:0 at WCG finals 2009 when he was 14 or 15. Overall a pretty good bw player and his young age is always what amazed me. His next game against bisu or stork, forgot which one, was terrible. And I don't remember him doing anything but beat idra which a lot of foreigners do already. | ||
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Sadist
United States7205 Posts
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Smorrie
Netherlands2921 Posts
For a foreign list it becomes really hard since there are way more players involved from different nationalities and people have a hard time being objective. Of course the Korean players have been tested way more often which makes the construction of a Korean list a lot easier. In the foreign scene there haven't been too many players that truly where at the top for a longer period of time though. Just go through all the names in this thread and see how many players are listed. They are all listed because they all seemed to do good at least at one point of the game. I'd probably go with the best players of the last 2 or 3 years (since imo it was easier to be a 'good' player back in the early days), mixed with a couple players that were really great for a longer period of time. Just to pick 10 players: Grrr, Elky, Mondragon, ret, Idra, Nony, White-Ra, PJ, and then maybe Androide & SEn. | ||
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CoL_Fuehrer
Russian Federation124 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
now this is somewhat epic .. :D :D :D | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 18 2010 05:10 StarStruck wrote: Lots of names have been tossed around. There are too many prominent names, lots of which are in the database. Anyway, I decided to compose a comprehensive list based on their regions. Notable players in chronological order from country (I will try to update this as best as I can if I think of anything else): Canada 1. Grrrr... 2. Smuft 3. XiaOzI 4. Testie 5. JF *After these guys you have players like Paul, Fire, AeriALs, Mora, VeG, TT1, Yan, Fayth, Pride, Taurent, Kiwi, Korn, CraZy, etc. You have some crazy memory. This sorta made my day. Thanks for the nod. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
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KwarK
United States42247 Posts
On December 18 2010 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Well, I don't like Idra at all, but that's not the problem. Take Mondi. Mondi is an amateur who dominated for years, won tournaments, and took game to progamers on a regular basis for ages. He was a leader of one of the biggest clan also. Idra is the contrary. Idra is a professional who has failed for three years not only to do anything at all on the professional stage, but hasn't been able to win the biggest amateur tourneys at his time. There is no doubt that Idra had incredible skill before switching to SC2 (but which talented player wouldn't with the training he had), and that he was the best player around on many aspects: mechanics, knowledge of the game, etc... He is just not the one that I would remember in ten years, especially if you compare him to people like Sen or Mondi. For me, something has always been missing. No vendetta here. I pretty much agree with this post. For years Dissy was foreign starcraft. ToT were the team and he was the best of them, if you asked the random guy on iccup who the best foreigner was it was him. For a while Testie was a contender too but Mondragon was there before and after. To my mind the only foreigners worthy of mention are Mondragon, Testie, White-ra and Nony, Mondragon being by far the most dominant (in terms of years at the top). | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Can someone explain please ? | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10301 Posts
On December 24 2010 21:45 KwarK wrote: I pretty much agree with this post. For years Dissy was foreign starcraft. ToT were the team and he was the best of them, if you asked the random guy on iccup who the best foreigner was it was him. For a while Testie was a contender too but Mondragon was there before and after. To my mind the only foreigners worthy of mention are Mondragon, Testie, White-ra and Nony, Mondragon being by far the most dominant (in terms of years at the top). marry me Kwark 1000% agree on everything you said. <3 Mondragon <3 + Show Spoiler + i wish he stopped slacking and started playing again, if just a little bit(i know he plays ladder but i mean tournaments ect) | ||
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njAl
Norway156 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
pretty sure its about the game when nony did HT drops but forgot to research storm ^^ | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On December 24 2010 22:03 Pulimuli wrote: pretty sure its about the game when nony did HT drops but forgot to research storm ^^ Sounds fun^^, do you knwo where I can watch the vod/lr ? | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
On December 17 2010 09:16 Boblion wrote: Best storm drops: Nony Why did you erase the part about the arbiter play, that game was sick ^^ | ||
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Deekin[
Serbia1713 Posts
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TT1
Canada9990 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
Yosh was/is one of the best terrans outside of Korea, he may not have won that many tournaments but the guy was a beast. He's on par with Androide in terms of talent | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On December 25 2010 00:51 BlazeFury01 wrote: There's a forerigner on the Asia server/Brain server that's far better then any of the names listed. In terms of skill he's up there with flash...literally. But refuses exposure and lacks the will to travel to Korea since (this game's just a hobby). He's Terran, I'll see if I could get some of his reps and post them on the site so you can judge for yourself. Yes if i was that good i would sit at home and not make hundreds of thousands of dollars by raping progamers left and right... sounds perfectly reasonable. If he was as good as Flash he would want to make $$$ and get famous edit: its not this oo3[3.33] guy again? | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On December 25 2010 01:08 Pulimuli wrote: Yes if i was that good i would sit at home and not make hundreds of thousands of dollars by raping progamers left and right... sounds perfectly reasonable. If he was as good as Flash he would want to make $$$ and get famous I've talked to him about it but he's more focused on college and other things. Traveling to Korea's something he clearly isn't interested in because of his personal life. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On December 25 2010 01:08 Pulimuli wrote: Yes if i was that good i would sit at home and not make hundreds of thousands of dollars by raping progamers left and right... sounds perfectly reasonable. If he was as good as Flash he would want to make $$$ and get famous edit: its not this oo3[3.33] guy again? Nope, not a 3.33 player. He's not even in a team... | ||
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KwarK
United States42247 Posts
On December 25 2010 01:13 BlazeFury01 wrote: I've talked to him about it but he's more focused on college and other things. Traveling to Korea's something he clearly isn't interested in because of his personal life. Maybe he told you he was that good but I'm gonna go ahead and not trust him/you. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On December 25 2010 01:21 KwarK wrote: Maybe he told you he was that good but I'm gonna go ahead and not trust him/you. Or maybe your just caught up in your own bias ways. I never asked you to trust me or him that's getting off topic and wasn't relative to my original post. I made my decision based off of game observations and replay analysis. In my opinion, I believe he's displayed near the same caliber of skill of flash. I then went on to say that "I'll let you judge for yourself by uploading some reps" in other words telling you to hold your tongue before you give your opinion. But sure, feel free to unleash your opinions if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On December 25 2010 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote: Or maybe your just caught up in your own bias ways. I never asked you to trust me or him that's getting off topic and wasn't relative to my original post. I made my decision based off of game observations and replay analysis. In my opinion, I believe he's displayed near the same caliber of skill of flash. I then went on to say that "I'll let you judge for yourself by uploading some reps" in other words telling you to hold your tongue before you give your opinion. But sure, feel free to unleash your opinions if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Listen, skill isn't determined by how the fuck you do in practice games. In practice games I was one of the best players in the non Korean scene especially when it came down to PvZ but I never was anything more than top30 in games that mattered. There's a HUGE difference between "raw skill" (which is what you most likely mean) and REAL skill which includes nerves of steel, the right decisions when under the utmost pressure etc etc, there's just so much more than it meets the eye that matters if there's a shitload of money on the line and tons of people watching you. So seriously, go fuck off for being as naive to call someone as good as Flash until he dominated the progaming scene as Flash did until quite recently, your opinion does have zero foundation and YOU are the one being biased here. | ||
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
On December 25 2010 00:51 BlazeFury01 wrote: There's a forerigner on the Asia server/Brain server that's far better then any of the names listed. In terms of skill he's up there with flash...literally. But refuses exposure and lacks the will to travel to Korea since (this game's just a hobby). He's Terran, I'll see if I could get some of his reps and post them on the site so you can judge for yourself. This guy speaks the truth. I've played that guy one, and trust me he's fucking good. He managed to take a game off me in a Bo9. Flash couldn't even if I was blind folded. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On December 25 2010 01:44 iNfeRnaL wrote: Listen, skill isn't determined by how the fuck you do in practice games. In practice games I was one of the best players in the non Korean scene especially when it came down to PvZ but I never was anything more than top30 in games that mattered. There's a HUGE difference between "raw skill" (which is what you most likely mean) and REAL skill which includes nerves of steel, the right decisions when under the utmost pressure etc etc, there's just so much more than it meets the eye that matters if there's a shitload of money on the line and tons of people watching you. So seriously, go fuck off for being as naive to call someone as good as Flash until he dominated the progaming scene as Flash did until quite recently, your opinion does have zero foundation and YOU are the one being biased here. I agree with some of your points. All I did was state my opinion and everybody here became so defensive about it. So, how am I being bias? I supported my answer with what I was comparing my opinion to. Personally, I think your still suffering from the humiliation flash and everybody else gave you on the WCG stage that's why your being so defensive about my opinion. You have zero reason to lash out at me as my previous post doesn't even mention your name or how immature you are for your age. I stated my opinion and was going to upload some reps therefore you could make your own judgement. And your correct as to saying my opinion has zero foundation because in actuality...neither does yours so saying that was really pointless lol | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On December 25 2010 01:54 BlazeFury01 wrote: I agree with some of your points. All I did was state my opinion and everybody here became so defensive about it. So, how am I being bias? I supported my answer with what I was comparing my opinion to. Personally, I think your still suffering from the humiliation flash and everybody else gave you on the WCG stage that's why your being so defensive about my opinion. You have zero reason to lash out at me as my previous post doesn't even mention your name or how immature you are for your age. I stated my opinion and was going to upload some reps therefore you could make your own judgement. And your correct as to saying my opinion has zero foundation because in actuality...neither does yours so saying that was really pointless lol You said you agree with some of my points yet you go on to make another nonsense statement - do you think I was ANGERED that I lost to FLASH? Seriously? No foreigner could be that cocky and ignorant, really. I was having a good time in LA and I prefered getting drunk as hell over "trying to make top4 which still doesn't give you any money" (not to mention that there was nobody to play BW with before WCG anymore if you're not a Korean or have super duper Inet) Onto the rest, even if I am immature - did I show any immature arguments? Nope, you just don't really have anything to counter my arguments that's why you are going on a more personal level. Yes, I have a reason to say that in my eyes what you said is utter bullshit because it is. Even IF he was as good as Flash in practice games and the replays are as good as you're it still doesn't mean he is as good as him when it matters and it would not change my statement that Flash is still miles ahead of him. In fact what I was trying to tell you is that NOBODY is able to make a claim that someone is as good as Flash by solely watching a few replays that might show the person in a very suitable environment. That is the argument you will never be able to overcome and you know it. Mental strenght can not be viewed in replays. Never ever. My argument that Flash is better does have no foundation? How about the foundation of a 2450 Elo peak, #1 Kespa since ages, dominating people left and right (except this OSL/MSL from statement), having a shitload of titles under his belt etc etc? Do you REALLY think I have no reason to say that, no matter how good this guy might be, he's still a nothing compared to what FlaSh achieved? That you're even trying to defend your point given the fact you're talking about the best player that has ever walked down on earth... seriously, don't you realize how hilarious this actually is? P.S: If you would've said "this guy is A+ level and is really amazingly good, I'll try to get replays to prove, I would have ZERO problems with such a statement if you actually get the reps to back that up. But using Flash as a comparison... F A I L fixed 1-2 typos o,o | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On December 25 2010 02:05 iNfeRnaL wrote: You said you agree with some of my points yet you go on to make another nonsense statement - do you think I was ANGERED that I lost to FLASH? Seriously? No foreigner could be that cocky and ignorant, really. I was having a good time in LA and I prefered getting drunk as hell over "trying to make top4 which still doesn't give you any money" (not to mention that there was nobody to play BW with before WCG anymore if you're not a Korean or have super duper Inet) Onto the rest, even if I am immature - did I show any immature arguments? Nope, you just don't really have anything to counter my arguments that's why you say going on a more personal level. So seriously, go fuck off for being as naive to call someone as good as Flash until he dominated the progaming scene as Flash did until quite recently, your opinion does have zero foundation and YOU are the one being biased here. Yes, I have a reason to say that in my eyes what you said is utter bullshit because it is. Even IF he was as good as Flash in practice games and the replays are as good as you're it still doesn't mean he is as good as him when it matters and it would not change my statement that Flash is still miles ahead of him. In fact what I was trying to tell you is that NOBODY is able to make a claim that someone is as good as Flash by solely watching a few replays that might show the person in a very suitable environment. That is the argument you will never be able to overcome and you know it. Mental strenght can not be viewed in replays. Never ever. My argument that Flash is better does have no foundation? How about the foundation of a 2450 Elo peak, #1 Kespa since ages, dominating people left and right (except this OSL/MSL from statement), having a shitload of titles under his belt etc etc? Do you REALLY think I have no reason to say that, no matter how good this guy might be, he's still a nothing compared to what FlaSh achieved? That you're even trying to defend your point given the fact you're talking about the best player that has ever walked down on earth... seriously, don't you realize how hilarious this actually is? P.S: If you would've said "this guy is A+ level and is really amazingly good, I'll try to get replays to prove, I would have ZERO problems with such a statement if you actually get the reps to back that up. But using Flash as a comparison... F A I L fixed 1-2 typos o,o[/QUOTE] Onto the rest, even if I am immature - did I show any immature arguments? Nope, you just don't really have anything to counter my arguments that's why you say going on a more personal level. Oh? Read below and show me a sentence of maturity... So seriously, go fuck off for being as naive to call someone as good as Flash until he dominated the progaming scene as Flash did until quite recently, your opinion does have zero foundation and YOU are the one being biased here. You wrote all this considering that the post had nothing to do with you in the first place. But, your right in some senses. Until he proves his skill in a pro environment then there shouldn't be a comparision. That's really all you had to say, but you went the distance to insult me for my opinion which wasn't necessary and which is why I called you immature. You can't win in an argument with me when I'm the one that has reason and backup for everything I write. Plus, I'm understanding. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Very mature behaviour of you. I didn't insult you btw, I told you to fuck off because your statement was naive. If you think that is too insulting... uhh oh. Never told anyone to stfu if he talked bullshit? You must be some kind of saint. Regarding YOUR maturity: From: BlazeFury01 [ 6 posts | Profile | Buddy ] Subject: Dismantled Date: 12/25/10 01:55 Warning! This message is from a user with only 6 posts. Do not reveal any personal information or click any links unless you are sure this is a legitimate user. lol you we're completely dismantled in WCG. I think your level of play speaks for itself. You we're never anything more then a B- gamer. Nice mature PM my friend, done with you, up to the readers to make their conclusions about you. Have a nice christmas eve despite being naive. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On December 25 2010 02:19 iNfeRnaL wrote: Oh congratz, you just ignored all my arguments and tried to jump on the "me being immature" train again. Very mature behaviour of you. I didn't insult you btw, I told you to fuck off because your statement was naive. If you think that is too insulting... uhh oh. Never told anyone to stfu if he talked bullshit? You must be some kind of saint. Regarding YOUR maturity: From: BlazeFury01 [ 6 posts | Profile | Buddy ] Subject: Dismantled Date: 12/25/10 01:55 Warning! This message is from a user with only 6 posts. Do not reveal any personal information or click any links unless you are sure this is a legitimate user. lol you we're completely dismantled in WCG. I think your level of play speaks for itself. You we're never anything more then a B- gamer. Nice mature PM my friend, done with you, up to the readers to make their conclusions about you. Have a nice christmas eve despite being naive. That's not immaturity it's the truth. Are you not a B- gamer? We're you not dismantled at WCG? Yes for both. If it wasn't factual then I could understand it as being immature but it's fact so therefore you posting it was rather irrelevant. The immature part is you posting messages in the forums thinking it would provide some similarity to me showing a sign of immaturity. lol infernal please think before you post. | ||
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cHicKeLoR
Germany559 Posts
Those are the names I can recall when thinking about really good foreign sc1 gamers. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On December 25 2010 02:19 iNfeRnaL wrote: Oh congratz, you just ignored all my arguments and tried to jump on the "me being immature" train again. Very mature behaviour of you. I didn't insult you btw, I told you to fuck off because your statement was naive. If you think that is too insulting... uhh oh. Never told anyone to stfu if he talked bullshit? You must be some kind of saint. Regarding YOUR I didn't ignore your arguments. I said I agree with your points. lol You seriously must not be reading anything I wrote. What's sad is that you just went on to display how immature you really are. WOW infernal WOW... User was warned for this post | ||
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Johnnybegood2night
Germany31 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
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RoyaleBrainSlug
United States295 Posts
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vectorix108
United States4633 Posts
glad to hear that you had a good time at WCG though | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
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ZZangDreamjOy
Canada959 Posts
On December 25 2010 02:23 BlazeFury01 wrote: That's not immaturity it's the truth. Are you not a B- gamer? We're you not dismantled at WCG? Yes for both. If it wasn't factual then I could understand it as being immature but it's fact so therefore you posting it was rather irrelevant. The immature part is you posting messages in the forums thinking it would provide some similarity to me showing a sign of immaturity. lol infernal please think before you post. Actually, I'm 100% sure iNfeRnaL consistently reached A-/A on iCCup. No one here is going to beleive some random kid who jumps on a forum proclaiming a random foreigner is just as good as FlaSh. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
On December 18 2010 23:00 StarStruck wrote: You definitely know your Brood War and Vanilla Starcraft, but I would never put Skew anywhere on that list let alone call him the best in 2006-2009. Only place he did well was on ladder and nothing more. I will put him on the close, but no cigar list. Thank you for taking me down memory lane. Everything before 2002 is fuzzy and I cannot believe I forgot the following players: hbq (T) - one of China's all-time greats who resurfaced with MYM in 2005-2006 SunCow (P,Z) - If it weren't for MistrZZZ, he would be Poland's BM champion. Who cares about manner when you are that good? One thing is for sure, he stirred a ton of shit. Gosia/Paranoid (Z) - sick Poland macro Zileas(P) - Best 98 - I'm assuming you are talking about the most underrated American player of all time. He came out of retirement in 2004 with anSWers World when Gorky Island was still in the WGTour Map Pool. Yes he deserves to be recognized too. Remarkably the guy could still play. :+:jolly:+: (Z,R) - Best 98,99,00 - thank you for making me look like an idiot, yeah definitely one of the top guys before replays. Tillerman(Z,R) - Best 98,99,00 - this makes me look like a bigger idiot. MidiaN isn't alone after all. Leader of iN. and all around great player. Agent_911(R) - Best 98,99 - cornerstone of team iN. INCinerate(R) - Best 98,99 - see above eSu.StinGeR(R) - WGT season2, Best 01,02,03,05 - Yeah, I'm an idiot. This guy deserves to go right after Slayer on Norway's list. Bz.BlasT(P) - Best 01,02,03,04,05 - yeah, I'm an idiot. One of the best Mexican players of all time. [9]Kain/Kain-The-Feared(P) - Best 98,99 - one of the best during the beta and onward [9]eVERLAST(R) - B.net ladder champion, Best 98,99 - I think you left out one of the guys from [9] but I cannot remember who! I know you said Thor already. {PH}Pillars(P) - Best 99,00 - I forgot to add him on the American list :/ Sorry Chris. uT)Phellan[S2](Z) - Best 02,03,04 - another big name I forgot :/ Anon(Z) - WGT season11, Best 03,04,05 - Wasn't he from Lithuania? Yeah, he was. Shit more revisions to make. WiLLEt[pG](P) - Best 01,02,03 - Ok, you cannot have a Swedish list without this man. He is the cornerstone of Swedish RTS just like MaDFroG. I knew I was forgetting some [pG] players and now that you said that, I'd like to add some of my own! Ranger[pG] - Russian prodigy Socke[pG] - sick German [pG]MaDFroG - Sweden's pride heXer[pG] - great German player InFiNiTy[pG] - another German (see the pattern?) [pG]GeN - actually you already said this guy :/ [pG]Asmodey - the Russian sensation [pG]blaZe - actually this guy was Korean, but hell he was a lot of entertainment for the foreign scene [pG]DeliCato - actually you already said him :/ [pG]KeNKa - another name you already said [pG]Cope - German [pG]CraZy - cannot for the life of me remember his nationality. I know I was going to add him to my list, but I just cannot remember the country. Wasn't he Canadian? [pG]Dalailamer - German (this is why you cannot list all the German players D: too damn many!) Korn[pG] - Canadian B.C. pride and joy! :D Kiwi[pG] - while I'm on Korn I might as well add this Canadian too [pG]Fire - spreading more Canadian love I have revising to do on my list. X_X Oh yes Skew should be probably be replaced. He was a really good player but never accomplished anything big - other than knocking Rekrul out in WCG USA 2004 I guess  (Skew played as Artofglory back then and Rekrul was playing in Korea. Monkey[BallZ] was the other player that defeated Rekrul in that tournament) Seeing how I forgot Rekrul on my list, whom actually was quite good in 2002-2004 I'll replace Skew with him As for your list I wont go into the rankings, but there are some factual errors there. Kain is canadian, you have him under american players. eVERLAST is swedish, you have him under american players. DeliCato is swedish, you have him under german players. Other than that you got them all right, and I'd like to add that Im quite impressed by your memory as well | ||
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ppshchik
United States862 Posts
Highest Skill Peak: PJ / LX: PJ defeated Savior in convincing fashion without cheese etc...Not to mention that he almost defeated Stork 2-0 in WCG 2009 after leading 1-0. LX on the other hand almost swept the STX B-Team after beating Tossgirl, July, Bogus, and losing to Trap 2-3). Most talented: Nony and Kolll. (Nony got 2nd in courage in his first try whilst Kolll got to B+/A- ICCUP within months and defeated IdrA 2-0. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
when i first started i was a confused newbie who had no clue how to play and so a good while after i found iCCup i went to youtube to try to find out how to be better but i couldnt find any zerg/terran fpvods (i was a bit sick of terran anyway cuz all my friends played it and we would only end up playing TvT hahaha) however i found the ones that NonY made, which were amazing and instantly made PvP and PvT into my best mu's by far...and then a old friend of mine who no longer plays would argue over who was better NonY or Modragon, after razer tsl we got into an argument over which one would in a TSL2 ironically the finals ended up being our heroes hahaha Liquid'Tyler has an enormous amount of talent and I feel is probably a great person(truly enjoyed ARBITERSSSSSSSSSS as well  PP) also LIQUID'TYLER FIGHTIIIIIINNNGGG!!!! TSL3 IS YOURS FOR THE TAKING! | ||
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Monokeros
United States2493 Posts
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funnybananaman
United States830 Posts
Chinese players are sort of an enigma, I kind of don't understand what the deal was with the starcraft scene there and i think i'm not alone when i say that. There were some extremely good players but they weren't in a lot of tournaments idk. Sen was very good probably on the level of mondragon ret & nony. PJ was just absurd though, that dude can straight up late game macro PvP with bisu and stork and if that doesn't scare the shit out of you it should. And i believe LX was supposed to be about as good as PJ although he didn't achieve the same incredible wins at any WCGs the way PJ did. I'm not going to mention the early players like garimto and grr... and elky just because that whole super early era of starcraft was so different and w/e but yes when they played they were as good as the koreans of their time. | ||
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FlameSworD
United States414 Posts
but other top players were liek ret mondragon brat ok | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
On January 05 2011 13:32 FlameSworD wrote: nony hes best storm dropper http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=72036¤tpage=12 but other top players were liek ret mondragon brat ok And had the best Arbiter control On January 05 2011 13:44 playa wrote: Most impressive players to me -- Androide, PJ, Draco and Day[9]. Why would Day[9] be there? He is cool, he is nowhere near as impressive as others | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 05 2011 13:32 FlameSworD wrote: nony hes best storm dropper [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=72036¤tpage=12]http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=72036¤tpage=12[/url] but other top players were liek ret mondragon brat ok[/QUOTE] And had the best Arbiter control [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muitsly5t6M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muitsly5t6M[/url] [QUOTE]On January 05 2011 13:44 playa wrote: Most impressive players to me -- Androide, PJ, Draco and Day[9].[/QUOTE] Why would Day[9] be there? He is cool, he is nowhere near as impressive as others[/QUOTE I've had the chance to play most top foreigner zergs. Most players strike you as being, say, A- level. You get the feeling that they are better than people you usually play, but nothing much more than that. When you play Day[9], you know who you're playing; he plays the game like a fucking rocket scientist: his game is probably more refined and precise than a lot of pro gamers -- which is very rare. I see you being a Nony fan boy in your message, but what makes him more talented than Day[9]? I respect Nony, but at the same time, he is basically the protoss version of Idra; I don't see people talking about Idra's potential the same way, though. If Day[9} wanted to be a SC 1 pro gamer, I'm sure he would have had just as much success as Nony after he went to Korea. | ||
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
On January 05 2011 15:47 Comeh wrote: Ret, Idra, Nony were probably the most refined of the foreigners, and best overall at the game. I suppose Mondragon should be mentioned - though his macro often left a lot to be desired at times. Fortunately, aggressive zergs can always make up from that just by having good micro and good game sense, which he had. What are you talking about, Mondi's macro was incredible. Even after his longtime retirement until TSL2, he proved to have great mechanics. He was not Jaedong or anything, but he started going above the 500 minerals after got like 5-6 bases (like the game on Andromeda vs a Terran, I think Brat_OK) [QUOTE]On January 05 2011 15:02 playa wrote: [QUOTE]On January 05 2011 14:29 Mortician wrote: [QUOTE]On January 05 2011 13:32 FlameSworD wrote: nony hes best storm dropper [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=72036¤tpage=12]http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=72036¤tpage=12[/url] but other top players were liek ret mondragon brat ok[/QUOTE] And had the best Arbiter control [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muitsly5t6M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muitsly5t6M[/url] [QUOTE]On January 05 2011 13:44 playa wrote: Most impressive players to me -- Androide, PJ, Draco and Day[9].[/QUOTE] Why would Day[9] be there? He is cool, he is nowhere near as impressive as others[/QUOTE I've had the chance to play most top foreigner zergs. Most players strike you as being, say, A- level. You get the feeling that they are better than people you usually play, but nothing much more than that. When you play Day[9], you know who you're playing; he plays the game like a fucking rocket scientist: his game is probably more refined and precise than a lot of pro gamers -- which is very rare. I see you being a Nony fan boy in your message, but what makes him more talented than Day[9]? I respect Nony, but at the same time, he is basically the protoss version of Idra; I don't see people talking about Idra's potential the same way, though. If Day[9} wanted to be a SC 1 pro gamer, I'm sure he would have had just as much success as Nony after he went to Korea. [/QUOTE] You are clearly blinded by your Day[9] fanboyism, dude | ||
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Yung
United States727 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
If one player is the best in USA for many years and then focuses more on school - hence doesn't join tourneys to get recognition, but another good player goes to Korea and trains for 14 hours a day... I don't see how that's more impressive if he becomes the better player. Nony is an amazing player, but you need perspective. | ||
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Lobo2me
Norway1213 Posts
On December 17 2010 07:03 SubtleArt wrote:Idra has been regarded as the best foreigner in the west, if you will. He spent 3 years on the CJ Entus team but didn't get any televised games. Won a lot of foreigner tourneys and even knocked out Tossgirl in qualifiers once. On christmas eve i Thailand, I saw a game between IdrA and Trap on Arirang, commentated by Jason Lee and Brian Rhee. | ||
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soonsu
France166 Posts
Reading your post really brings me back memories from the old school players, really love them. I feel that the game was so fun to watch at that time, as the strategies were not developed like today, and you could see anything happen in a game, especially in the hands of geniuses like NTT. This guy would make almost any game like an action packed movie which you can't wait to watch, wondering what was going to happen. That's one of the reasons I would rank him much higher in your list, and Nazgul as well. Really love the GG, eSu, pG times. I have so much nostalgia for that time... | ||
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Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
second wave: Fisheye, Sven, Slayer, Satanik, Asmodey, Nazgul, Blackman, Saft, Socke, Suker | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On December 17 2010 07:02 Rasky wrote: o come on there has to be more than that I know Idra played he's pretty good. Idra signed with a proteam, which is something of itself. But he really did not meet expectations. Many foreigners had faith in him to do well, but he only got like 1 appearance, and wasn't even on the bench most of the time. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19205 Posts
 Draco is awesome. 'nough said. | ||
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
On January 05 2011 11:33 ppshchik wrote: Most Successful: Grrr (OSL Champion, nuff said) Highest Skill Peak: PJ / LX: PJ defeated Savior in convincing fashion without cheese etc...Not to mention that he almost defeated Stork 2-0 in WCG 2009 after leading 1-0. LX on the other hand almost swept the STX B-Team after beating Tossgirl, July, Bogus, and losing to Trap 2-3). Most talented: Nony and Kolll. (Nony got 2nd in courage in his first try whilst Kolll got to B+/A- ICCUP within months and defeated IdrA 2-0. I 100% agree with this, you can't really get a foreigner that is the best at all three of those. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On December 18 2010 05:10 StarStruck wrote: Lots of names have been tossed around. There are too many prominent names, lots of which are in the database. Anyway, I decided to compose a comprehensive list based on their regions. Notable players in chronological order from country (I will try to update this as best as I can if I think of anything else): Canada 1. Grrrr... 2. Smuft 3. XiaOzI 4. Testie 5. JF *After these guys you have players like Paul, Fire, AeriALs, Mora, VeG, TT1, Yan, Fayth, Pride, Taurent, Kiwi, Korn, CraZy, etc. U.S.A: 1. Whear 2. Maynard 3. Tsunami 4. Froz 5. Assem 6. *NonY/IdrA (it wouldn't be fair if I didn't include these two, although their prominence to the top only came a year before SC2 came along) *The States had many players who faired well. This list includes: {PH}Pillars, [9]Kain/Kain-The-Feared, [9]eVERLAST, Zileas, SloG4, Day[9], Rekrul, Cypressman, Incontrol, Nyoken, iNkA, Lz, Blackjack, G5, Agent_911, etc. They were well known for their good 2v2 teams like Poland and Germany. U.K. 1. MidiaN 2. Tillerman Jamie was just as good as Mondragon. Netherlands 1. Ret 2. Twisted 3. Nazgul 4. Strafe 5. NTT Norway: 1. Slayer 2. sVEN 3. StinGeR 4. Eriador 5. WhistleR * Notable players: ErlinG and Oystein. France 1. ElkY 2. Chobo 3. Sarens 4. TuZeR 5. MoMaN Chile 1. KNiF 2. KeiR 3. DinOt 4. GoTuNk 5. KiLLeR Malaysia 1. JohnRambo 2. MarinE Peru 1. Fenix 2. CaStrO 3. sMacker 4. HanDy 5. Darki Romania 1. Shaman 2. FlaF 3. UltraLinG 4. Praetor 5. Radu *Another really strong nation during clanwars. Other players include: Ryko, AnDrEi, Jack and DeathAngel. Mexico 1. GosI[Terran] 2. BlasT 3. StYm 4. DeSka 5. NeO)asS Croatia 1. Ptak Australia 1. Leggionaire oG)Gabriel and StarHunter deserves a shoutout too. Hungary 1. Ace 2. KaShu 3. Sziky 4. Cameleon 5. Gorky *Another very strong nation. Other players include: Naib, Dromedar and iNFERNO. Russia 1. Androide 2. A2 3. Brat_OK 4. Ex 5. Escape *Other notable mentions: Asmodey, uT)Phellan[S2], Ranger[pG], Bruce, Pomi, Rondo, Casper, etc. Greece 1. sataNik 2. Zato 3. Coulthard 4. TaSSa 5. DeA]eX[ Germany 1. Fisheye 2. BrEaKdOwN 3. GeNtLeMaN 4. Mondragon 5. Kolll *Germany was a superpower for a very long time and there was a good reason for this. Their list of talent is as long as Poland's: Infernal, Ace, Socke[pG], heXer[pG], GhosTa, GoOdy, HoRRoR, Selector, [pG]Cope, [pG]Dalailamer, [pG]DeliCato, etc. Also worth noting, Mondragon and Testie formed one of the best 2v2 teams of all time. Germany also has monster 2v2's just like the USA. Lithuania 1. Arew 2. Anon 3. Kr China 1. Lx 2. PJ 3. Super 4. Vulture 5. F91 *It was very unfortunate that we would have so many latency problems when playing with the Chinese and as a result their players mostly played on the Chinese servers. Other notable players include: hbq, Beckham, RushGooN, Phoenix66, CCQ, Jaystar, ChinaTTTT, etc. Taiwan 1. sEn Portugal 1. Syz 2. MiLLs Czech Republic 1. PredY 2. Crow 3. Dark_Caleb 4. Destroyer 5. Jump Poland 1. Draco 2. Blackman 3. Dreiven 4. MaNa 5. Spawn *Poland was another super power like Germany. Other players include: Paranoid, SunCow, Dunaj, MistrZZZ, Raven, Slider, Tarson, Sawyer, tomsOn, sYs, Moonshine etc. Also worth nothing, they were one of the hardest teams to play against in a Nation War because you would never know who the heck they were going to bring. -_- Ukraine 1. White-Ra 2. Strelok 3. DIMAGA 4. yAn 5. ALF *Ukraine was another really strong nation. Other players include: hanniGan, Enemy, etc. Finland 1. MadClaw 2. nApoLeon 3. Ovvi Turkey 1. ExGoSu 2. iLLe Italy 1. ClouD 2. Cafone I know I'm forgetting somebody, but I cannot remember. Bulgaria 1. Beast 2. Lamer 3. DIDI8 4. ENJoY 5. Zelias Other notables include: Technics and ready. Belarus 1. LoWeLy Kazakhstan 1. TemujiN Argentia 1. Pato 2. Sabbath Sweden 1. SaFT 2. WiLLEt[pG] 3. Daaman 4. TreK 5. Naugrim *Another incredibly hard one. Other notable players include: [pG]MaDFroG, HayprO, KaaZ, Mireille, DaZe, ZpuX, Gurram, Morrow, etc. Brazil 1. Hellghost 2. Odin 3. ReasoN 4. MasteR 5. StarDeath *Kelsen is the only other player I can think of. I know I must be missing somebody. Spain 1. ZelotITO 2. SquaLL 3. Suker 4. ALFA very well written, sir~ I would probably add to france SDT~)Nohope (i think was a good zerg from France), to USA - Artosis, to GB maybe Spire[MB], notforu to Russia, CQ~2000 from China (if i remember correctly), [EPIsode]:-=V=- to Taiwan, [o]Mr.X to Bulgaria too, ToT)Arch( to Denmark, OctZerg to Macedonia, Vanilla to Serbia, eX-Thunder to Poland (was a very good p back then imo) ^.^ | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
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Dataleif
Sweden252 Posts
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Eternity
France69 Posts
On January 06 2011 01:59 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I would probably add to france SDT~)Nohope (i think was a good zerg from France), to USA - Artosis, to GB maybe Spire[MB], notforu to Russia, CQ~2000 from China (if i remember correctly), [EPIsode]:-=V=- to Taiwan, [o]Mr.X to Bulgaria too, ToT)Arch( to Denmark, OctZerg to Macedonia, Vanilla to Serbia, eX-Thunder to Poland (was a very good p back then imo) ^.^ Nohope, most known for being BM and saying "Die in twin towers fat hamburger" during war3 beta. NOT a top french player. From the old days, a notable french player missing is Scream. In Lan tournaments it was always : 1. Elky 2. Chobo 3. Scream 4. Moman Good times | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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krepsazz
6 Posts
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On November 14 2017 05:57 krepsazz wrote: time changed, nowadays foreigners are stronger then ever (in my personal opinion)... the list should be edited a lot ;D i dont think that we had such strong player as bonyth ever... his micro is best foreigner scene ever had I mean, ultimately unless they play in Korea, we won't be able to make good comparisons | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On November 14 2017 05:57 krepsazz wrote: time changed, nowadays foreigners are stronger then ever (in my personal opinion)... the list should be edited a lot ;D i dont think that we had such strong player as bonyth ever... his micro is best foreigner scene ever had Sziky. In 2011-2014 or so (forget exactly when Sziky went inactive) he was basically in his own tier. If Sziky showed up, you generally new he was going to win the tour. Hit B on fish, and like Bonyth in PvT especially Sziky could show strong games with occasional wins even against top tier KR players. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2216 Posts
On December 18 2010 02:54 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah, great career, great achievements... Let's see... Failed to qualify in any major league in Korea, Failed to go to A team after 3 years, Failed to play a single Kespa TV match, Lost to a foreigner in WCG 0-2, Failed in TSL1 early on Failed in TSL2 although he has 600 more practice time and experience than anybody else. He won a lot of small tournaments. Great. If he had been Korean, we would refer to him as a scrub who never achieved anything at all. Probably none of us would have ever heard of him. No, sorry, Idra has been a very very unsuccesfull progamer. He played amazingly, had fantastic mechanics, but something has always been missing, and this something seems to have been essential. THIS, IdrA's progaming carreer really started with sc2, he was just some high level foreigner with good contacts in bw. | ||
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1030xxx
Australia62 Posts
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Piste
6167 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On November 14 2017 12:21 XenOsky- wrote: THIS, IdrA's progaming carreer really started with sc2, he was just some high level foreigner with good contacts in bw. If you mean compared to KR standards yea. IdrA wasn't as good as Scan. But IdrA was certainly better than say Sziky or Bonyth are today. Not by a lot, but he was the dominate foreigner with over 80% WR. | ||
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
On November 14 2017 14:43 1030xxx wrote: PJ was the best, he got 2nd place in WCG and beat savior in BO3 match. True, even though savior was drunk. Doesn't make him not the best foriegner though...he consistently took games off pros (including stork and bisu). | ||
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sc19980331
China1609 Posts
On November 14 2017 15:50 Piste wrote: Sziky for sure when he was in his peak. At this moment the best outside Korea and China is propably Bonyth. Just checked https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard Non-kr player mmr ranking: U.S. West SouL)T(Dandy 3025 Terran 275 193 U.S. West Bonyth. 3000 Protoss 97 34 Asia houshifumemeda 2908 Terran 505 436 (Mihu) Asia SC.jaystar 2879 Protoss 109 46 Europe Sziky1 2831 Zerg 285 226 Europe rM]Dewalt 2795 Protoss 82 37 Asia ToSs.. 2767 Protoss 351 300 (LX) Asia xiximeimei 2698 Zerg 116 74 (Fengzi) Europe Nal_Draco 2672 Protoss 175 118 U.S. West Dandy. 2659 Terran 198 147 Europe Spidey 2654 Zerg 1082 988 (Eonzerg) Europe OpenAI 2613 Terran 191 141 (Koget) Europe Trutacz 2593 Zerg 457 385 Europe ourplay 2591 Terran 626 573 (Gargoyle) U.S. West bethegreatest 2514 Zerg 194 142 Europe g0rynich 2503 Zerg 288 232 (Notforu) And ELO ranking http://prorm.webd.pl/rekin5/ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/StarCraft_Remastered_Ladder | ||
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CrymeaTerran
149 Posts
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sc19980331
China1609 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Team_Liquid_Open http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/ESL_SCR_Cup http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/OSC_SC:R_Open http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Rus_Brain_Cup_S1 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Clashforchar10 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Template:Clan_SK_Tour_Navbox Most Winners: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/EOnzErG http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bonyth http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/TrutaCz http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Dewalt | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1162 Posts
He was in CJ just because Nony didn't want to get involved so much and Idra had the chance to go... As best players I'd say: Protoss: PJ, White-ra, Nony Zerg: Legend (LX), Mondragon, Kolll Terran: Androide, a2kate, EX Rdm: Testie | ||
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Pulimuli1
33 Posts
On November 14 2017 17:56 BlueStar wrote: Don't get me wrong but idra was nowhere near the best foreign players. He was in CJ just because Nony didn't want to get involved so much and Idra had the chance to go... As best players I'd say: Protoss: PJ, White-ra, Nony Zerg: Legend (LX), Mondragon, Kolll Terran: Androide, a2kate, EX Rdm: Testie LX was protoss, so maybe F91 instead for Zerg? honorable mention to ToT)Yosh( for terran, he was really good when he was active, otherwise i agree | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
Meta and game did evolve and progress a huge amount so people playing now would probably win all tours if they went back in time, but player skills were probably higher during a time that competition was higher and there were a lot more people playing & competing intensely outside of kr. The only person that stands out as a truely exceptional player & all-time great is sziky in my opinion. For consistency and total domination in the years after sc2 came out. The other players like bonyth, eon, trutacz, notforu. They are very strong players no doubt. They would most likely be highly competitive and do quite well back in the days. But I don't think they would dominate or make a push for the best of all time. First a player would have to dominate currently, and that is not happening as of yet. Only when someone is head & shoulders above everyone else could an argument be made for the best of all time. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 14 2017 20:41 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Did you mean to post without any text? o_o | ||
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
On November 14 2017 17:42 CrymeaTerran wrote: Idra is just bad because of his mindset, good mechanical skills but jesus his mindsetting I once dt rushed idra first round of a big tourney (offracesort of). It was bo3 he didnt even bother to play the second match. I went on to win it eZ He was probably at his peak could have easily 2-0ed me but that was idras mindset but we sort of all know that | ||
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
im sure he edited out his rage :D | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On November 14 2017 20:32 Liquid`Ret wrote: the level of play now is not higher than it was in the years leading up to SC2. I'm a lot older now and I only played sc1 for a few months after 8 years away from the game. I have found it relatively easy to compete with any of the players that are 'the best' now (and I've played all of them - even if it was just ladder). Meta and game did evolve and progress a huge amount so people playing now would probably win all tours if they went back in time, but player skills were probably higher during a time that competition was higher and there were a lot more people playing & competing intensely outside of kr. The only person that stands out as a truely exceptional player & all-time great is sziky in my opinion. For consistency and total domination in the years after sc2 came out. The other players like bonyth, eon, trutacz, notforu. They are very strong players no doubt. They would most likely be highly competitive and do quite well back in the days. But I don't think they would dominate or make a push for the best of all time. First a player would have to dominate currently, and that is not happening as of yet. Only when someone is head & shoulders above everyone else could an argument be made for the best of all time. I am really happy you said that. I also think that the skill was higher back then in 2008-2011 than now. | ||
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
Back in the day there was barely any tourneys where the top players played. Tourneys where top players would all play were rare if not existence out of tl ran tourneys. There was no money not even crack change like there is today. Best players would play mostly friends and just weekly clan wars only so no one really knew who the best players were as easily as they do today and as a half decent player back in the day people were alot more wrong about who was good back then since there was small sample sizes of games played. Now you have like 4 50-100$ tourneys a week that all the best players pretty much always play and its the same guys always in the top 6 even if no ones dominating. So were pretty sure those players are the best now but are we really sure a player like koll was really the best over a really small sample size where he won one tourney? (poor koll hes just my example) | ||
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
I actually think players are way better now | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On November 14 2017 21:35 sicklucker wrote: the majority of players are way better mechanically now tho. The avg apm has almost doubled. you can thank tools like justin tv and twitch for that. Everyone sees eonzerg spamming 500 apm daily and try to emulate you didnt have that way back I remember 200 apm was considered alot or decent. I actually think players are way better now common dude i copied it from effort,always eonzergs fault + Show Spoiler + | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3996 Posts
yep, eon just directly answered the question. Not that i agree though | ||
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Piste
6167 Posts
On November 14 2017 17:34 sc19980331 wrote: Just checked https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard Non-kr player mmr ranking: U.S. West SouL)T(Dandy 3025 Terran 275 193 U.S. West Bonyth. 3000 Protoss 97 34 Asia houshifumemeda 2908 Terran 505 436 (Mihu) Asia SC.jaystar 2879 Protoss 109 46 Europe Sziky1 2831 Zerg 285 226 Europe rM]Dewalt 2795 Protoss 82 37 Asia ToSs.. 2767 Protoss 351 300 (LX) Asia xiximeimei 2698 Zerg 116 74 (Fengzi) Europe Nal_Draco 2672 Protoss 175 118 U.S. West Dandy. 2659 Terran 198 147 Europe Spidey 2654 Zerg 1082 988 (Eonzerg) Europe OpenAI 2613 Terran 191 141 (Koget) Europe Trutacz 2593 Zerg 457 385 Europe ourplay 2591 Terran 626 573 (Gargoyle) U.S. West bethegreatest 2514 Zerg 194 142 Europe g0rynich 2503 Zerg 288 232 (Notforu) And ELO ranking http://prorm.webd.pl/rekin5/ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/StarCraft_Remastered_Ladder Althought Dandy has higher elo than Bonyth, I wouldnt say he is better. Their points are pretty close to each other but Bonyth has way less games Nice to see Sziky on the list as well, I hope he practises to gain his former skills back! Edit: Dewalts stats are quite impressive as well | ||
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Me_ToKa
Bulgaria309 Posts
Z - Mondragon T - Idra | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
On November 14 2017 20:32 Liquid`Ret wrote: the level of play now is not higher than it was in the years leading up to SC2. I'm a lot older now and I only played sc1 for a few months after 8 years away from the game. I have found it relatively easy to compete with any of the players that are 'the best' now (and I've played all of them - even if it was just ladder). Meta and game did evolve and progress a huge amount so people playing now would probably win all tours if they went back in time, but player skills were probably higher during a time that competition was higher and there were a lot more people playing & competing intensely outside of kr. The only person that stands out as a truely exceptional player & all-time great is sziky in my opinion. For consistency and total domination in the years after sc2 came out. The other players like bonyth, eon, trutacz, notforu. They are very strong players no doubt. They would most likely be highly competitive and do quite well back in the days. But I don't think they would dominate or make a push for the best of all time. First a player would have to dominate currently, and that is not happening as of yet. Only when someone is head & shoulders above everyone else could an argument be made for the best of all time. I can agree with the differentiation between 'skill' and 'strategical evolution', and that while top players from today could go back and dominate against the 2008-2009 meta, this is because of strategical evolution more so than because of increase in skill. I do think that in particular you and idra from 2008-2009 are on the same level that anybody has really attained since then - with Sziky 2011-14 or whatever as the most likely exception. But Bonyth really does stand out imo, and not from a strategical meta-evolution point of view, but from a skill point of view. If anything he loses more than he has to because he plays such a risky style of play - which I think is related to his race of choice. An equally skilled terran player would imo be likely to dominate about as hard as Idra did pre sc2. He, like you and Idra used to be, is a player that I can identify based on watching him play for two minutes without actually knowing who is playing, because his micro stands out as better than that of anybody else. Bonyth and Dandy hitting 3k mmr and Dandy hitting A on fish, those are seriously impressive feats too. | ||
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BWCL
47 Posts
On November 14 2017 21:31 sicklucker wrote: the one thing thats different now tho that ret left out. Back in the day there was barely any tourneys where the top players played. Tourneys where top players would all play were rare if not existence out of tl ran tourneys. There was no money not even crack change like there is today. Best players would play mostly friends and just weekly clan wars only so no one really knew who the best players were as easily as they do today and as a half decent player back in the day people were alot more wrong about who was good back then since there was small sample sizes of games played. Now you have like 4 50-100$ tourneys a week that all the best players pretty much always play and its the same guys always in the top 6 even if no ones dominating. So were pretty sure those players are the best now but are we really sure a player like koll was really the best over a really small sample size where he won one tourney? (poor koll hes just my example) Yeah, I'm not quite sure where you get the information from that there were rarely any tours with prize money, or incentives that would make the elite play. Germany alone had a very healthy scene long before the SCII-Beta was announced with prize pools up to 2000€ (e.g. GIGA, ESL), then there were things like the ECG and WCG Panama (obviously also national WCG qualifiers), additionally a couple of LANs with prizes (ASUS LANs for instance, but also those in the Czech Republic), not to mention smaller scaled events with prize pools, going back from smaller cups ran by Starcraftgamers/GG.net or BW4Ever/Broodwar.de (I'm sure there were things at netwars.pl and reps.ru as well) with the same amount of the weekly cups. Not to mention that even the nation war scene was healthy enough to actually always feature the top tier of each nation. For nations like Germany, Poland and Russia you would have really stacked and deep line ups. So yes, there always was a way to spot the best talents and best players. However, this whole debate is a bit of a skewed issue, because it's hard to put numbers on anything, as most of the results haven't been recorded. Then there's the problem of comparing the ever changing environment of the competitive scene from back of the golden days - the rotation of popular maps (aside from LT->Luna->Python->FS) also did a lot to feature different forms of skill and limit the mechanical ceilling. Today's best players might shine in different aspects and, to some extent, feel mechanically better than any of their 'ancestors' in their prime, simply because the training ground was always the same. I have no clue how good a Mondragon would have been if the same map was used in every tournament. The same goes in the different direction, I believe some players would have been 'more dominating' after SCII if the competitive maps were anything but FS and FS-clones. This being said, there's only ranking lists left you base on your feelings. For me some players still stand out, e.g. Mondragon for holding his long lasting records in the German and international scene, Draco, ret, SEn and Androide - without any concrete logic behind it. After SCII it's probably Sziky, closely followed by tacz and TechnicS, with the random glimpse of Terran talent such as Marwin and Heme. | ||
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
No one in canada or the states wanted to get up that early on there day off. im also talking alot further back | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
I do feel like at that time there was more skill on the top players, I agree. It's true nowadays more people are really fast, but that's a secondary thing really, the decision making thing beats it unless you are actually too slow which they were not too slow.. Why more skill back then, because more competition? yeah sure, and also I think possibly there are players who stuck around for such a long time since the game started, and they have experience and knowledge of so many things which aren't necessarily common but still quite strong. If somebody starts playing years later they might not get to discover or understand some things for a while, as it comes up less often. | ||
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JollYRoGeR
Sweden342 Posts
Thanks! On December 17 2010 13:31 Guybrush wrote: *Best = Regarded one of the best nonkoreans those years My list for Top30 Alltime nonkoreans 1. Grrrr(P,R) - OSL(Hanaro), Blizzard world championship, WCG03 3rd, Best 99,00,01,02,032. Elky(T) - OSL(Sky2002) 4th, WCG01 2nd, ECG04, Best 01,02,03,043. Slayer(R) - KBK00, Best 99,00,01,024. Sven(T,R) - Best 99,00,01,025. Maynard(T,R) - Best 98,99,00, Nickname "God" among the best players6. SaFT(P,R) - WGT season2(old french WGT), Best 01,027. Blackman(Z) - WCG02 3rd, Best 02,03,04,058. PJ(P,R) - WCG07 2nd, MYM tour, Best 03,04,05,06,07,08,09, Chinese tournaments9. Androide(T) - WCG05 2nd, Best 03,04,05,06,0710. Mondragon(Z) - WCG07 3rd, WGT season9, ECG05, GGL2, EuroCup, TLT1 2nd, TSL2 2nd, Best 03,04,05,06,07,08,0911. Lx(P) - PGL08, Best 05,06,07,08,0912. Draco(P) - PGL07, TANL3, Best 03,04,05,06,07,0813. Sen(Z) - Best 05,06,07,09, ToT Tour14. Advokate(T) - TLT2, SomE tour, Best 04,05,06,07,08,0915. ret(Z,T) - TANL1, WGT season3, Best 03,05,08,0916. Fisheye(P) - WCG03 2nd, Best 02,03,04,05,0617. Smuft(P) - TLT1, Best 01,02,0318. Yosh(T) - Best 01,02,05,07,0919. Asmodey(R,P) - PGC2, OSL participant(Sky2001), Best 00,01,0220. Testie(R) - Best(hacked before 03) 03,04,05,06, PlayIT, Ace21. Super(T) - Best 05,06,08,09, Chinese tournaments22. F91(Z) - Best 05,06,07,08,09, Chinese tournaments23. Iefnaij(P) - Stamina, TSL1, Best 07,08,0924. Nazgul(P) - PGC3 , OCL participant, Best 01,02,0325. Legionnaire(P) - PL-Allkill, Courage, WCG05 3rd, Best 03,04,0526. White-ra(P) - Best 06,07,08,0927. Froz(T) - Best 01,02,03,0428. Assem(T) - GGL1, Best 03,04,0529. NTT(T) - WCG00 3rd Best 99,00,0130. NonY(P) - Spirit, TSL2 Best 07,08,0931. IdrA(T) - Valor, ESWC Best 09I've followed the scene pretty much from the start and this is more or less the 31 of the best players in their respective primes. I've included some of their achievements that I remember. I didnt really think about taking Idra since his reign was so short, but he was very dominant in the end. Top 5 are oldschool players who were among the best in the world in their prime - not just the best foreigners. With the exception of Elky they also excelled with every race and were randoming in several tournaments. Grrrr and Elkys achievements in progaming speak for themselves(1st and 4th in OSLs respectively). Slayers KBK victory also stands out, but Maynard and Sven do not have the same accomplishments and because of this I'll enlighten you abit about these great players. Maynard was considered the best player before Grrrr started dominating and went by the nickname "God" among the best players on the Kali server (the alternative to playing on B.net back then with better latency). In terms of achievements Maynard didnt do too much but he introduced a gameplay with strong focus on economy and overwhelming the opponent with sheer numbers rather than trying to outcontrol him. For example the term "Maynarding" is still used today as a synonym for worker transfer. The textbook example of this was done in the battlereport (there werent replays back then) between Maynard and Grrrr in the USA vs Canada tournament back in summer 1999 covered by gamegurus.net. Maynard(6) was playing zerg against Grrrrs(9) protoss on Lost Temple. Maynard opened conservatively with a 12 hatch in his main (zealot rushes were extremely popular back then) and teched to 2 hatch hydra, harassing Grrrrs expand constantly with hydradancing using only small guerilla groups rather than his whole army to negate storm-efficiency. While he was doing this Maynard consumed the map with a low saturation of workers on every expand, continously transfering most of them to new expands as soon as he expanded to them. He did this because the efficiency of the workers are higher the lower saturation you have. Of course this means you need more expands than you would normally have to get the same income, but your army would be bigger because you would need less workers (than with a normal high worker saturation) to maintain an equal economy. He won the game after about 25-30 minutes with pure hydras, and because his saturation was so low I remember his 3rd expand going dry before his natural. He strongly influenced Grrrr and Grrrr himself has in several interviews said that he considered Maynard better than him even after going to Korea. Maynard was also living as a progamer in Korea for a short time. Slayer and Sven are considered some of the most talented players to ever play the game and were practicing with many of the best progamers in their era - H.O.T, Yellow, V-Gundam, Oddysay, KimWanChul, IntoTheRain, Love30.D.O.M, TheMarine, Foru, and so forth. They were also practice partners with Garimto when he was preparing for his match against Boxer in the Sky2002 OSL (Garimto was a also a part of the GG# team). Sven was even telling him which strategy he should use, and indeed Garimto went ahead and used it. There are parallels to draw from the Maynard-Grrrr combo to Sven-Slayer. Like Maynard, Sven had warcraft2 experience and was a dominating player in the early stages of Starcraft. Furthermore, as Maynard influenced Grrrr, Sven formed Slayer from very early stages; sensing his potential, recruiting him to the aBs team (which consisted of the best norwegian players) and practicing with him in person exchanging thoughts and strategies - though Sven was most often the creative one. Like Grrrr won OSL - Slayer won KBK which is an incredible achievement. I'd actually consider KBK a bigger achievement because absolutely any player in the world could play in it and you would be flown to Korea to play in the playoffs - a 256 player single elimination tournament (BO3s in the semi and final). Just as Maynard, Sven didnt have any major achievements and also had short stints were he wasnt playing competitvely, but when he became strongly active again in 2001/2002 he was one of few players (and most likely the only terran) capable of beating SaFT in a BO5 (in the final of the scandinavian allstartour in 2002) and dominated several known korean progamers in online tournaments and practice games. Known for his deadly micro in BW he transitioned his skills into the newly released warcraft3 and played competitively on the highest level before losing interest after a few months. Back to the rest of the top 10: In terms of absolute skill Id put PJ, Lx, Sen, Draco, ret, Idra and Nony high, and in terms of longevity theres little doubt that PJ wins that. Mondragon, Advokate, Draco and Fisheye are also notable ones. In particular Yosh and also ret could have probably been close to them if they didnt take long breaks from playing. Some of the rest of my choices for top 10 are certainly arguable and I will give some reasoning for picking SaFT, Blackman and Androide. PJ and Mondragon are there mostly for their longevity and I wont write about them - they're understandably quite known by everyone due to their recent activity. My reason for having SaFT so high was that in his prime he would beat Boxer several times who was the best player in the world at that time. He also dominated the WGTour ladder with like 90-8 in stats. Dont believe me ? Check this link http://web.archive.org/web/20020405173616/sc.wgtour.com/ladder/profile_player.php?id=4904 (it takes a while before it loads). He was extremely consistent and quite possibly the best PvTer in the world in 2001/2002 including progamers. His PvP wasnt lagging far behind and his PvZ had 40 minute slugfests against the best zerg in korea then - ChoJJa. Blackman is so high because his heavy macro oriented style pioneered Zerg in his prime. He was also one of few zerg players being fast enough to manage Zerg on island maps - where most other zergs would complain about imbalance. You would have tons of players copying him in 2003, and the wgtour ladder was flooded with zerg players after his 3rd place at WCG in 2002. Tomson (a quite famous polish player) switched from playing terran, copied Blackmans 1hatch,2hatch,3hatch8patrol9patrol0patrol hotkey system and became very successful in later years, reaching the final in the scandalous WDTour which progamer Oversky won with maphack. Blackman didnt qualify for the WCG again before in 2005 (Poland had an incredible amount of good players 2003-2005, only Sweden in 2001 is comparable) and still managed to show good play albeit not as dominant as before because his early game was average. Androide is so high because his 2nd place at WCG in 2005 came at a point where progamers were rapidly surpassing foreigners skillwise, and when he knocked out Silent_Control in a dominanting style right after Control had beaten Xellos in a BO3 it looked very much like a foreigner could win WCG. Foru was very lucky to win that tournament losing to Slash and Blackman (who utterly crushed him) in the groups, and then barely squeezing out 2-1 vs Sen and then 2-1 vs Storm (chinese zerg). Unfortunatly his best matchup was PvT and he ended up beating Androide fairly easy in the final. Since that PJ was the only foreigner entering the final in WCG but very few had faith in him as he was up against Stork in Stork in what was Storks ace MU. Androide thus represented the last realistic hope that a foreigner could win WCG. PJ and LX have killed most korean progamers in tournaments in modern times(post 2005, covered in my blog) but they've also played in more tournaments containing progamers. Damn. Didnt intend for this post to become this big. Anyways that's my thoughts on this subject. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On November 15 2017 14:13 sicklucker wrote: everything you just listed was European and at like 9am my time =/ and there was certainly little to no prizes. No one in canada or the states wanted to get up that early on there day off. im also talking alot further back How is that an argument to bend facts? Please first know what you're talking about, before you list things that are just not correct. | ||
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EvilSky
Czech Republic548 Posts
 That awful build on Estrella mannn | ||
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wishbonesaka
Canada117 Posts
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1587 Posts
Also, Dewalt is probably equal to or slightly behind Bonyth as the best foreign protoss player. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On November 16 2017 03:37 wishbonesaka wrote: where's the love fro Dewalt, i've seen his fpvods, very clean player, thought he was korean when i first watched one, and im confident in assuming he is top tier on the foreigners. i've not watched a lot of his games and i choose to stand by this assumption. correct me if im wrong. #boldcomments He's a strong protoss, one of the better ones; but doesn't match the level of Bonyth, some of our good zergs, or perhaps Dandy (who is apparently doing crazy well but haven't watched anything lately). Dewalt is for sure in top 10 or so, but this discussion has mainly be discussing the foreigners who were absolute cream of the crop. Not sure Dewalt is quite strong enough for that discussion. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On November 14 2017 21:18 sicklucker wrote: I once dt rushed idra first round of a big tourney (offracesort of). It was bo3 he didnt even bother to play the second match. I went on to win it eZ He was probably at his peak could have easily 2-0ed me but that was idras mindset but we sort of all know that It's pretty ridiculous how bad his mindset was. Talking shit and being frustrated by perceived imbalances...I'm all fine and Dandy with. It's when you let that affect your actual gameplay that it's an issue. IdrA always gave the impression he became massively unhinged, and while he might have played that up a little bit I think that was also fairly true and really held him back. I also would suspect it contributes to why he stopped playing SC2 nor came back to play BW. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1587 Posts
On November 16 2017 04:21 L_Master wrote: He's a strong protoss, one of the better ones; but doesn't match the level of Bonyth, some of our good zergs, or perhaps Dandy (who is apparently doing crazy well but haven't watched anything lately). Dewalt is for sure in top 10 or so, but this discussion has mainly be discussing the foreigners who were absolute cream of the crop. Not sure Dewalt is quite strong enough for that discussion. I disagree on many levels. Dewalt is clearly the #2 foreign protoss if you count Bonyth as the #1 foreign protoss. They have completely different styles so it's a bit hard to compare the two. While Bonyth has god level micro and sick timing attacks, I feel that Dewalt's multitasking and macro are a bit better. I also think that Dewalt is better than most of the current good zergs. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On November 16 2017 04:40 EndingLife wrote: I disagree on many levels. Dewalt is clearly the #2 foreign protoss if you count Bonyth as the #1 foreign protoss. They have completely different styles so it's a bit hard to compare the two. While Bonyth has god level micro and sick timing attacks, I feel that Dewalt's multitasking and macro are a bit better. I also think that Dewalt is better than most of the current good zergs. Well, I said as much about Dewalt's place. He is definitely the #2 protoss, and in fairness he probably is at the level of Eon and TrutacZ. It's also possible that his multitasking and macro are better, but that's not really relevant when comparing successful players or skill. Results are. In terms of wins and tour success, Bonyth is clearly ahead of Dewalt, and really everyone else. He's beaten Scan a few times and can generally take games from anyone. There are actually quite alot of foreign tours right now, so it's a little hard to keep up, but I don't know of two many wins for Dewalt. I don't think he won any TL opens, I think he has won a couple OSC's a I think a Clash for Char, but at best I could put him on similar level of guys like TrutacZ and eon. They're damn good, but it goes back to the point point that there isn't separation. Bonyth right now is the only player that seems to be close to seperation from the pack. If you give me Eon, TrutacZ, Dewalt, Dandy, etc. I wouldn't be particularly inclined to favor any player. All are very good and equally capable of winning (my perception). Bonyth starts to seperate himself a bit. But current Bonyth still has nowhere near the seperation that 2011-2014 Sziky had, hence the why Dewalt isn't in the conversation for GOAT foreigner discussion. IdrA, Sziky, Ret, maybe NonY, and Draco if you go back a little further are probably the only guys I can think of that belong in that discussion. | ||
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Trutaacz
Poland101 Posts
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2055 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1587 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On November 16 2017 06:30 EndingLife wrote: That list seems pretty damn accurate for players who actively play in tournaments. The only downfall to that list is that not everybody participates in tournaments. Examples: Ret and Mana would be ranked much higher if they played in more tournaments. I don't see anything wrong with the top 15 players though, it seems fairly accurate as to who the current best foreigners are. Agreed. The usual suspects are 70%ers against top tier competition, and Bonyth around 80%. Scan's record is impressive; I realize he is dominant, but I feel like he should more than 4 losses...he lost at least a tour or two to Bonyth and it's not like he NEVER loses games. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1587 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On November 16 2017 14:22 EndingLife wrote: Bonyth's micro is definitely top notch. His control and decision making with early units is insanely good. To get 3000, you have to be able to beat Koreans consistently, which he does with an insane record. Sziky is 2800+, lets see if he can get it back and get to 3000. Apparently they made changes to'the mmr ,spx said he is facing ez oponents and reaching 3k aswell.i also have the impresion that when u make a new id is much easier to rank up.my id kylo-ren is 2800 without much effort.however my main id spidey that i use the most i have more hard oponents with less mmr.im not really sure whats going on. | ||
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krepsazz
6 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2216 Posts
On November 16 2017 05:53 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I dont have much to add to the discussion of greatest of all time, but this http://prorm.webd.pl/rekin5/index.php is a great resource for current top foreigners, updated every few weeks, started from early 2017 I believe. There is a player listed twice, Tech- and q8D are the same person. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10637 Posts
)...It was obviously SKELTON.. Because he sat at the top of that bnet ladder for like forever :D. (edit: which is korean if my quick research showed, so fuck me). | ||
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