"Blizzard still has strong attachment for StarCraft 1. Due to the limitation of time and resources, right now, we have to choose and focus. But support for StarCraft 1 will not be reduced now, or later."
Blizzard, who decided to take the problem of StarCraft IP rights to the courts, has once again, shown a strong will in regards to IP rights protection, and explained their thoughts on StarCraft 1.
Blizzard provided an interview as a follow-up to yesterday's announcement of filing an lawsuit.
This is an interview transcription with Paul Sams:
- There are fans who do not like taking the matter to the court or worry about it.
A. I want to say clearly, that we do not want to negatively affect the players, nor do we intend to. The reason why we had to use the final card of lawsuits is because our IP rights are not being protected. We still want to see StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 leagues to happen, and to be shown on the TV.
After the lawsuit news, we've monitored the opinions of the Korean players late into the night, and we've sighted worries that Blizzard wants to completely bury StarCraft 1. We want to say it loud and clear, that we do not wish to do so. Blizzard still has a strong attachment for StarCraft 1.
Not only the company, but I personally have a special spot in my heart for StarCraft 1. We just want to protect our IP rights.
The negotiation terms that Gretech offered to both of the broadcasting stations are fair, so we want to see the negotiation through as smooth as possible, and be on a good relations. Also, Blizzard has no plan to get any monetary gains through the IP rights negotiation process. Didn't you see in Gretech's announcement, that all monetary gains will be donated to charities? Once again, we want to see StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 to exist side-by-side.
- There are opinions that since individual leagues happen 3 times in 1 year, 100 million won per tournament might be too expensive. Are there any plans to adjust this to just 100 million won per 1 year just like it is for Proleague?
A. As far as I know, the negotiation terms revealed by Gretech is for the Proleague, not individual leagues that the broadcasting stations are doing. The negotiation terms relating to that is not yet revealed. So, please excuse us for being unable to make a comment on this question. What I can say is, KeSPA, as we all know, is a non-profit group -- to support progamers and to provide rules and lead e-sports, not a monopolistic for-profit group. But broadcasting stations are a for-profit companies.
Few years ago, there was a situation when KeSPA demanded broadcasting fee from broadcasting stations, and I remember the fee to be significantly higher than the rumors or current negotiation terms offered. The important fact here is, that KeSPA has no right to demand any money, but they did so, at much higher price. The absolutely true fact is that, few years ago, KeSPA demanded a lot of money, and we think if someone wants to use somebody else's IP, they should be paying a fair price to the IP owner.
As for the sub-licensing, we gave Gretech full rights, so we are not involved with that negotiation. Gretech is a for-profit company, so it seems only right that the negotiation should end with fair pricing for both Gretech and the broadcasting stations.
Once again, Blizzard did not decide on the pricing in the negotiation, and that Gretech will set a fair price for the negotiation. Ultimately, we want to protect our IP rights.
I want to also make a mention about the rumors going around regarding the relationship between Gretech and Blizzard. Gretech is Blizzard's partner. This is based on trust, and Blizzard still trusts and supports Gretech. So, we want to confirm again, clearly, that Blizzard and Gretech are partners who trust and respect each other. Likewise, we want to see new partnerships created with other groups in Korea. To do so, we need to have respect going both ways, but beforehand, we need acknowledgment of the IP rights. Doing broadcasting without getting the license is an act of disrespect.
- At worst, StarCraft 1 progame teams might be disbanded. In that case, have Blizzard ever thought of what to do for the progamers if that happens?
A. We tried to think up many ways to get the negotiations finished all these years. Unfortunately, the negotiation could not proceed and it didn't come to an agreement. We have been stressing the importance of protecting the progamers, and to not give any harm or negative effect to them. We really want to see a solution, in other words, to see negotiation come to an agreement. Blizzard wants broadcasting stations to get a license to continue airing games, and for progamers to continue playing in the matches.
In the middle that is that IP rights must be protected. But other involved parties are giving excuses not related to IP rights to stall the negotiation. Past should let be past, and everyone should be able to enjoy both StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2.
When the worst comes to pass, we want to question the broadcasting stations instead. Have they thought of what might happen to the progamers if they leave this problem as it is? This is a problem that depends on broadcasting stations' choice.
We will continue to support StarCraft 1 no matter what, and will continue to open new tournaments. The chance for that will continue to be provided. We don't want to see progamer teams or big progamer-based groups to be disbanded due to this.
- StarCraft 1 tournaments? What is this about?
A. We are working with many different partner companies worldwide. Through the partners, we will continue to open tournaments and will support them. Our business is varied -- WoW, WarCraft 3, StarCraft and such. Due to the limitation of time and resources, right now, we have to choose and focus. But support for StarCraft 1 will not be reduced now or later.
- Broadcasting stations sent a new negotiation terms including their stance, and Blizzard did not respond to it?
A. Blizzard cannot respond to it because we are not the negotiator. Gretech is the one that should be responding to it. As we said yesterday, we are willing to take part in additional dialogues, and even though we are offering fair terms, every time we start a new negotiation session, [KeSPA/broadcasting stations] keeps on adding additional terms of what they want, causing the negotiation to be delayed. This is happening over and over, and it is making the negotiation very difficult. Gretech will be announcing their stance in regards to that, and we are looking forward to it.
We want to say again, that what we really want is for broadcasting stations to continue broadcasting the games after getting the StarCraft 1 license. In additional, when this is resolved, there will probably be more ways where we can work together with. But first of all, we must resolve the broadcasting rights issue that started years ago, before we continue talking about other things. It is important to get trust by resolving the age-old problem. It is too hasty to expect a partnership when there is no trust built yet.
A random SC 2 question about future of SC 2 tournaments you may or may not be interested in:
- Is there plans to make additional StarCraft 2 tournaments open worldwide just like Korea's GSL?
A. Blizzard has a lot of interest in that. We are currently working with partners about that. We will open up StarCraft 2 tournaments in various places, and we are preparing licensing for the worldwide tournaments to open. We want that day to come fast.
We think famous, skilled players such as Lim Yo-Hwan, Kim Won Ki, and Lee Yun Yeol joining tournaments caused StarCraft 2 to be more prestigious, and more skilled, popular players will probably show more interest. We will take that as a good chance to increase the interest in StarCraft 2, and continue to work on it.
If Activision Blizzard is backing Gretech all the way, MBCGame is fucked (but not OGN, since CJ is somewhat of a parent company to both Gretech/Ongamenet. I really don't think most of the other sponsors will be happy with an OGN monopoly though).
I think one of the major unreasonable demands is Gretech desire to claim at least half ("50/50") of the rights to all the content that is produced by the team and individual leagues, when they contribute nothing in terms of funds, expertise, infrastructure, player sponsorship, or otherwise, merely simply their license from Activision Blizzard.
And Activision Blizzard doesn't plan to support StarCraft 1 less? How much less support can they provide when you consider the zero support they provide now. What doublespeak.
Kespa's play to reduce their costs by demanding fees from the broadcasters is definitely coming to bite themselves back in the ass, though.
This is exactly what you would expect them to say... however, actions speak louder than words.
They can tell us they still care a ton about sc1 but in the end their "partner" was trying to force BW off of primetime slots and trying to force people that wanted to broadcast bw to also broadcast sc2.
Blizzard has not gone out of their way to establish a strong foundation for esports...
And the whole limited time and resources issue is bogus, they have tons of resources to develop and do whatever they want, it's just a matter of whether they think it is a worthy investment or not.
I also do not believe for one second that blizzard would empower gretech without having complete control over what gretech does with that power.
I don't get it, what support for SC1? Backing KeSPA/MBC/OGN is support for SC1.
What are they going do? Throw money into some GSL style SC1 tournament on GOMtv? Doubt many of the GSL viewers would be into that. As stated before, I doubt they're willing to support the type of structure the pro-scene has at the moment, especially since in the interview it seems that they are going to blame KeSPA/MBC/OGN if the teams get disbanded :\.
Most of this doesn't add up to me even as a PR stunt.
If support for Starcraft 1 has not been reduced, why isn't Starcraft Broodwar play on Blizzcon? There's like so many Starcraft 2 and can't manage to squeeze a slot for Starcraft Broodwar? I would say the support has been reduced.
It's wonderful that Blizzard has a soft spot for BW, and wants to see it exist side-by-side with Sc2, but I'm more than a little skeptical that could happen with the course of action they've chosen. They may be genuine in wishing that BW continue, but the truth is that as a side-effect of what they're doing, it won't. So, what gives?
It's like Macbeth saying he really doesn't want to kill the king, but he's still going to stab the king repeatedly in his bed.
On October 24 2010 13:22 IntoTheEmo wrote: I don't get it, what support for SC1?
Battle.Net for Brood War is still online, you can still purchase Brood War online, Blizzard will allow Brood War to be broadcast so long as their right are respected.
On October 24 2010 13:24 ISighZ wrote: If support for Starcraft 1 has not been reduced, why isn't Starcraft Broodwar play on Blizzcon? There's like so many Starcraft 2 and can't manage to squeeze a slot for Starcraft Broodwar? I would say the support has been reduced.
According to this guy in the interview blizzard just doesn't have the resources for such things. (Lol)
On October 24 2010 13:26 tree.hugger wrote: It's like Macbeth saying he really doesn't want to kill the king, but he's still going to stab the king repeatedly in his bed.
Perfect. Activision could be Lady Macbeth in this.
I strongly feel that Blizzard made some mistakes in the "SC1 IP rights issue", purely based on the result. Right now things appear to be heading for the worst case scenario: ProLeague gets stopped by an injunction. I question how it is helpful to publicly accuse the broadcasting stations of disrespect.
What I still don't understand is what "protecting our IP rights" actually means to Blizzard. Does it mean they just want acknowledgement? Does it mean that they don't want anybody else to make money off SC1? Or do they want to get a part of the profits?
Besides that it still looks as if partnering up with GreTech was a mistake as far as SC1 is concerned, as it hasn't worked out so far.
On October 24 2010 13:01 Selith wrote: We will continue to support StarCraft 1 no matter what, and will continue to open new tournaments. The chance for that will continue to be provided. We don't want to see progamer teams or big progamer-based groups to be disbanded due to this.
- StarCraft 1 tournaments? What is this about?
A. We are working with many different partner companies worldwide. Through the partners, we will continue to open tournaments and will support them. Our business is varied -- WoW, WarCraft 3, StarCraft and such. Due to the limitation of time and resources, right now, we have to choose and focus. But support for StarCraft 1 will not be reduced now or later.
I don't believe you sorry. There was no Sc1 Blizzcon tourney.
On October 24 2010 14:24 Simplistik wrote: What I still don't understand is what "protecting our IP rights" actually means to Blizzard. Does it mean they just want acknowledgement? Does it mean that they don't want anybody else to make money off SC1? Or do they want to get a part of the profits?
Apparently it means recurring short-term contracts with the broadcasters where they get to dictate the timeslots of events. As they say, they don't care about the profits; their share can go to charity.
Of course Kespa selling the broadcast rights got their attention. Responding to that is understandable. But it's clear now that Blizzard wants more than a pro forma acknowledgement of their IP. They want the ability to change their minds later about who gets to broadcast Starcraft and when it can be broadcast.
That guy repeated "IP rights" so many times, that finally might believed in it himself. I want to see what will happen with sc2 when Diablo 3 is out. Can GSL and... GDL (Global Diablo League) coexist? SC2 will always be in their hearts and receive the same amount of "support"
We still want to see StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 leagues to happen, and to be shown on the TV.
But more importantly I like how people say "words are sweet", "action are worth more than words". So because this is blizzard speaking, you don't even give a fuck about what they have to say, and blindly reject their view on the matter? How can you be so biased? I think that people are pissed off because blizzard doesn"t appear as "evil" as some people like to believe. Quite uncomfortable, huh?
We still want to see StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 leagues to happen, and to be shown on the TV.
But more importantly I like how people say "words are sweet", "action are worth more than words". So because this is blizzard speaking, you don't even give a fuck about what they have to say, and blindly reject their view on the matter? How can you be so biased? I think that people are pissed off because blizzard doesn"t appear as "evil" as some people like to believe. Quite uncomfortable, huh?
Way to go, TL. Way to go.
Yes, we blindly reject Blizzard the way you blindly accept SC2. We're just idiots born yesterday, we can't tell Blizzard's true intentions from their actions these couple months.
We still want to see StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 leagues to happen, and to be shown on the TV.
But more importantly I like how people say "words are sweet", "action are worth more than words". So because this is blizzard speaking, you don't even give a fuck about what they have to say, and blindly reject their view on the matter? How can you be so biased? I think that people are pissed off because blizzard doesn"t appear as "evil" as some people like to believe. Quite uncomfortable, huh?
Way to go, TL. Way to go.
It's not really bias here.
It's hard to swallow him saying: "We want to see SC1 on TV." AT THE SAME TIME he's hosting a QA session on going to court to get an injuntion to stop SC1 being shown on TV.
A. We are working with many different partner companies worldwide. Through the partners, we will continue to open tournaments and will support them. Our business is varied -- WoW, WarCraft 3, StarCraft and such. Due to the limitation of time and resources, right now, we have to choose and focus. But support for StarCraft 1 will not be reduced now or later.
Yes, we blindly reject Blizzard the way you blindly accept SC2. We're just idiots born yesterday, we can't tell Blizzard's true intentions from their actions these couple months.
Yes I blindly accept sc2, if that means anything. I'm glad to see sc1 as well as sc2 being played at pro level.
On October 24 2010 15:04 Simplistik wrote:
It's not really bias here.
It's hard to swallow him saying: "We want to see SC1 on TV." AT THE SAME TIME he's hosting a QA session on going to court to get an injuntion to stop SC1 being shown on TV.
We still want to see StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 leagues to happen, and to be shown on the TV.
But more importantly I like how people say "words are sweet", "action are worth more than words". So because this is blizzard speaking, you don't even give a fuck about what they have to say, and blindly reject their view on the matter? How can you be so biased? I think that people are pissed off because blizzard doesn"t appear as "evil" as some people like to believe. Quite uncomfortable, huh?
Way to go, TL. Way to go.
If you're not knowledgeable on a subject, it's best to stay silent than promote your ignorance. People aren't scoffing at Blizzard's words merely because of pre-disposed views. That's your own assumption. However, what is intangible is the past history of tournaments and Starcraft on TV. Where was Blizzard during the past 10 years? Aside from the invitationals and Blizzcon, how often did Blizzard hold Starcraft tournaments let alone attempt to broadcast them? If the US isn't as receptive to gaming on TV as Korea, then why not try to make a mark in the nation that bought half of all Starcraft 1 copies? Where was Blizzard 9 years ago when Korea was promoting e-sports using a product made by Blizzard? Why wait until 2007, after e-sports had flourished and become an established enterprise in Korea, to "protect" your IP rights?
Let's be honest here. What Blizzard wants from KeSPA is money. They want KeSPA to continue doing the things they are (ie: no additional work for Blizzard). If KeSPA doesn't comply and does die out, do you really think Blizzard can replicate what KeSPA has done?
After all, Blizzard can't even run Blizzcon correctly so how are they supposed to run/manage/overlook OSL/MSL, progaming teams, and progamers in a country halfway across the world?
On October 24 2010 14:55 AlBundy wrote: THanks for translating, OP.
The guy said right there
We still want to see StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 leagues to happen, and to be shown on the TV.
But more importantly I like how people say "words are sweet", "action are worth more than words". So because this is blizzard speaking, you don't even give a fuck about what they have to say, and blindly reject their view on the matter? How can you be so biased? I think that people are pissed off because blizzard doesn"t appear as "evil" as some people like to believe. Quite uncomfortable, huh?
Way to go, TL. Way to go.
If you're not knowledgeable on a subject, it's best to stay silent than promote your ignorance. People aren't scoffing at Blizzard's words merely because of pre-disposed views. That's your own assumption. However, what is intangible is the past history of tournaments and Starcraft on TV. Where was Blizzard during the past 10 years? Aside from the invitationals and Blizzcon, how often did Blizzard hold Starcraft tournaments let alone attempt to broadcast them? If the US isn't as receptive to gaming on TV as Korea, then why not try to make a mark in the nation that bought half of all Starcraft 1 copies? Where was Blizzard 9 years ago when Korea was promoting e-sports using a product made by Blizzard? Why wait until 2007, after e-sports had flourished and become an established enterprise in Korea, to protect your IP rights?
Would you watch a tournament if it was only amateurs that played in it? Whats the point of having a tournament when you can't even get the top players to play... This is the problem that Blizzard faced. You can't run a tournament when Kespa says hey well these are our players and we won't let him participate.
Would you watch a tournament if it was only amateurs that played in it? Whats the point of having a tournament when you can't even get the top players to play... This is the problem that Blizzard faced. You can't run a tournament when Kespa says hey well these are our players and we won't let him participate.
What? Blizzcon? WW Invitationals? S-class progamers always attended those. I don't even see how your comment pertains to my point anyway.
Let's be honest here. What Blizzard wants from KeSPA is money. They want KeSPA to continue doing the things they are (ie: no additional work for Blizzard). If KeSPA doesn't comply and does die out, do you really think Blizzard can replicate what KeSPA has done?
After all, Blizzard can't even run Blizzcon correctly so how are they supposed to run/manage/overlook OSL/MSL, progaming teams, and progamers in a country halfway across the world?
I may indeed seem not knowledgeable and shortsighted, but after reading that:
We want to say again, that what we really want is for broadcasting stations to continue broadcasting the games after getting the StarCraft 1 license. In additional, when this is resolved, there will probably be more ways where we can work together with. But first of all, we must resolve the broadcasting rights issue that started years ago, before we continue talking about other things. It is important to get trust by resolving the age-old problem. It is too hasty to expect a partnership when there is no trust built yet.
I can't help but think positively and be confident about this whole issue. Instead of hating one side or another, I'll just wait and see. Blizzard may not be honest, but at least that Paul sams interview is definitely not bad news.
On October 24 2010 15:27 ArvickHero wrote: If all this money they are charging going to charity, why the fuck are they charging so much in the first place
Because donating to charities makes you a good guy.
I'd give this a lot more credence if they weren't also pushing for an injunction to stop the broadcast of proleague. Given that they're doing just that, I'm far from convinced they're doing this just to prove a point about IP rights.
Going to court to sue and thereby stop the tv station which effectively produces around half of the starcraft broodwar out there.
No no, you dont wanna kill starcraft -_-
I will be cheering happily like a little girl as soon as blizzard realizes that when they left the ladder they gave up on sc bw and moved on to newer games. Understandable, since this is a GAME company, let the eSPORTS companys be eSPORTS companys. Sigh, I believe the Korean companies more since they dont see any reason to suddenly want to donate charity just to seem like noone cynical.
On October 24 2010 13:01 Selith wrote: We will continue to support StarCraft 1 no matter what, and will continue to open new tournaments. The chance for that will continue to be provided. We don't want to see progamer teams or big progamer-based groups to be disbanded due to this.
- StarCraft 1 tournaments? What is this about?
A. We are working with many different partner companies worldwide. Through the partners, we will continue to open tournaments and will support them. Our business is varied -- WoW, WarCraft 3, StarCraft and such. Due to the limitation of time and resources, right now, we have to choose and focus. But support for StarCraft 1 will not be reduced now or later.
I don't believe you sorry. There was no Sc1 Blizzcon tourney.
This was my first thought, but when you actually think about it it was probably hard getting players because most of the foreign scene went to SC2 although I am sure you can still get some good people if they actually tried and to get Koreans would of been problematic because of the issues they are having with KeSPA. I can't see any teams allowing there players to go to an event hosted by a company that is trying to destroy their livelihood.
On October 24 2010 13:01 Selith wrote: We will continue to support StarCraft 1 no matter what, and will continue to open new tournaments. The chance for that will continue to be provided. We don't want to see progamer teams or big progamer-based groups to be disbanded due to this.
- StarCraft 1 tournaments? What is this about?
A. We are working with many different partner companies worldwide. Through the partners, we will continue to open tournaments and will support them. Our business is varied -- WoW, WarCraft 3, StarCraft and such. Due to the limitation of time and resources, right now, we have to choose and focus. But support for StarCraft 1 will not be reduced now or later.
I don't believe you sorry. There was no Sc1 Blizzcon tourney.
This was my first thought, but when you actually think about it it was probably hard getting players because most of the foreign scene went to SC2 although I am sure you can still get some good people if they actually tried and to get Koreans would of been problematic because of the issues they are having with KeSPA. I can't see any teams allowing there players to go to an event hosted by a company that is trying to destroy their livelihood.
They could've adleast made the effort to get players or at least have a BW tournaments with like SC2 players like Idra or the Chinese instead of abandoning it completely.
We will continue to support StarCraft 1 no matter what, and will continue to open new tournaments. The chance for that will continue to be provided. We don't want to see progamer teams or big progamer-based groups to be disbanded due to this.
and
We think famous, skilled players such as Lim Yo-Hwan, Kim Won Ki, and Lee Yun Yeol joining tournaments caused StarCraft 2 to be more prestigious, and more skilled, popular players will probably show more interest. We will take that as a good chance to increase the interest in StarCraft 2, and continue to work on it.
are contradictory statements. In a nutshell, Paul Sams is saying:
"My boss at Blizzard told me to BS the public about SC1. The truth is, we at Blizzard want to kill SC1 because SC2 makes us lots of $$$ but SC1 makes us jack sh*t. We will never admit that we are killing SC1 in public but rest assured, all our actions will point to us killing SC1. We want big name SC1 players from SC2 switching over to SC1 so we'll make life as hard as possible for MBC and KeSpa.
As for the timing, we left Pro-League alone for so many years because SC2 was still being developed but time is up for MBC and KeSpa because SC2 is out! The bottom line is we want our shareholders to make $$$ and SC1 doesn't make us $$$ compared to SC2.
The monetary gains being donated to charities is a ploy to fool the public since if we kill Pro-League, we and Gretech will be laughing to the bank! I am also laughing at all the gullible fools who actually believe Blizzard is still supportive of Pro-League! Hahahahaha!"
All Blizzard is saying (by actions and words by the way) is that they want to control what is done with their IP and by whom. I think this is a legitimate desire for a company. Especially when the IP is so valueable. It doesn't make sense to me to criticize this.
I think they are forced by the stubborn Korean companies to escalate this in this fashion. So it is not really fair to hold it against them. If KeSPA or whoever said ok we will pay a symbolic licence fee and we will compromise in broadcasting times and then Blizzard would screw over BW I could see a point for critic.. but like this? I don't know.
Also I think people should stop using the argument "But they stole it for 10 years.. why isn't it ok to keep on doing so??!" because it is kind of naive and is not helping at all.
Blizzard stoped the support for BW years ago . No new patches . They could have tweaked the scout so that it could be usable in some match - ups . Also abilities like the broodling could have been usable if they lowered the mana cost or the upgrade cost . They left the minor imbalances in BW to Kespa's professional map makers , probably will do the same with SC2 . There will be a bunch of useless units like the archon . Also their maps suck both in SC2 and in broodwar .
They didn't care about the IP rights 10 years ago when the proscene was shaping up . But after 10 years of entertainement and free advertisement of their game they have the nerve to try and shut - down Broodwar's e - sport scene after basically doing nothing to support them . And after the proteams disband they will throw the blame to the supporters of e - sports the broadcasting stations OGN and MBC which without them watching korean broodwar will not be possible .
Nobody even plays their battle.net , because iccup is 10 times better in my opinion .
So no i don't see how they are supporting the BW scene . Some weak ass tournaments with terrible streaming and coverage won't replace Proleague MSL and OSL .
GSL is a well run proffesional tournament , but even Gom has trouble streaming .
Their Blizzcon was full of shit ... 3 hours delay , streaming was terrible and geting the best english casters in the world to cast some replays instead of life games . There was lag thanks to no LAN , which is essential to tournaments . I would rather professionals host tournaments like OGN and MBC instead of this amateurish displaies .
On October 24 2010 17:13 pecore wrote: Also I think people should stop using the argument "But they stole it for 10 years.. why isn't it ok to keep on doing so??!" because it is kind of naive and is not helping at all.
On October 24 2010 17:13 pecore wrote: All Blizzard is saying (by actions and words by the way) is that they want to control what is done with their IP and by whom. I think this is a legitimate desire for a company. Especially when the IP is so valuable*. It doesn't make sense to me to criticize this.
I think they are forced by the stubborn Korean companies to escalate this in this fashion. So it is not really fair to hold it against them. If KeSPA or whoever said ok we will pay a symbolic licence fee and we will compromise in broadcasting times and then Blizzard would screw over BW I could see a point for critic.. but like this? I don't know..
I'd like to know how valuable you think it is pure financial terms. Blizzard already gets what every other company involved gets. Cheap advertising and a good image from E-sports. Now they want control for basically doing nothing for the past 10 years. It is only valuable due to the current state of it, so as far as I am concerned, Blizzard is stealing from KeSPA, not vice versa.
On October 24 2010 17:13 pecore wrote: All Blizzard is saying (by actions and words by the way) is that they want to control what is done with their IP and by whom. I think this is a legitimate desire for a company. Especially when the IP is so valuable*. It doesn't make sense to me to criticize this.
I think they are forced by the stubborn Korean companies to escalate this in this fashion. So it is not really fair to hold it against them. If KeSPA or whoever said ok we will pay a symbolic licence fee and we will compromise in broadcasting times and then Blizzard would screw over BW I could see a point for critic.. but like this? I don't know..
I'd like to know how valuable you think it is pure financial terms. Blizzard already gets what every other company involved gets. Cheap advertising and a good image from E-sports. Now they want control for basically doing nothing for the past 10 years. It is only valuable due to the current state of it, so as far as I am concerned, Blizzard is stealing from KeSPA, not vice versa.
Hm.. this is actually correct and interesting. But I guess it doesn't matter who improves the value of something but who owns it.
It just sucks because when you look at it that way... both sides have to thank each other.. both sides should work with each other. But some individuals (on both sides) were too greedy and stubborn and now we have this mess and it probably has to be sorted out in the courts.
Hopefully after this the BW companies will still remain and get their licence. Because I think a lot of people here are correct. Blizzard has no strong interest in creating new leagues or tournaments for BW... that's what the old BW companies would have been for, if they (both) were just able to compromise properly.
On October 24 2010 17:13 pecore wrote: All Blizzard is saying (by actions and words by the way) is that they want to control what is done with their IP and by whom. I think this is a legitimate desire for a company. Especially when the IP is so valuable*. It doesn't make sense to me to criticize this.
I think they are forced by the stubborn Korean companies to escalate this in this fashion. So it is not really fair to hold it against them. If KeSPA or whoever said ok we will pay a symbolic licence fee and we will compromise in broadcasting times and then Blizzard would screw over BW I could see a point for critic.. but like this? I don't know..
I'd like to know how valuable you think it is pure financial terms. Blizzard already gets what every other company involved gets. Cheap advertising and a good image from E-sports. Now they want control for basically doing nothing for the past 10 years. It is only valuable due to the current state of it, so as far as I am concerned, Blizzard is stealing from KeSPA, not vice versa.
Hm.. this is actually correct and interesting. But I guess it doesn't matter who improves the value of something but who owns it.
It just sucks because when you look at it that way... both sides have to thank each other.. both sides should work with each other. But some individuals (on both sides) were too greedy and stubborn and now we have this mess and it probably has to be sorted out in the courts.
Hopefully after this the BW companies will still remain and get their licence. Because I think a lot of people here are correct. Blizzard has no strong interest in creating new leagues or tournaments for BW... that's what the old BW companies would have been for, if they (both) were just able to compromise properly.
That is exactly why they should get monetary compensation and no IP rights recognition from KeSPA. More than fair - they don't carry the expenses the others do, they even get PAYED, and KeSPA doesn't have to fear about having to quit the next moment Bobby Kotick throws a temper-tantrum.
The thing that still irks me to this day is that gretech gives the broadcasting fees to charity. Not saying that giving money to charity is a bad thing but it helps e-sport nonewhatsofuckingever. Instead they should use it to provide stability in various ways or organise fan events.
Kespa would support teams if they loose their sponsor until they find a new one wich happened as far as I remember twice. I think Kespa should just open their books, but there is probably some shady stuff going on aswell.
All in all I cant believe this is still going on for so long...
The only people this Blizzard executive is going to convince and impress are the people who just recently joined the e-sports scene as fans - perhaps in 2009 or 2010 - because those people do not know the entire history of e-sports in Korea.
Sure you can check my joined date (sometime in 2009) but I am Korean (check some of the interviews I translated) and I have followed e-sports throughout its entire history. Now that I've grown from a game-happy kid, to a teenage fan and now into an adult, I'm more aware of the external things now (such as IP rights issue). I wonder if people arguing that Blizzard doesn't want to kill SC1 and they're not greedy people and so on, I wonder if they realize that Blizzard could have done this same thing at any given time during the 10 years. Why now? Isn't the timing too obvious?
As few people mentioned, "donating proceeds to charity" does not automatically make Blizzard a good company. Also, on top of that, trying to get SC1 pros into SC2 by destroying broadcasting rights of OGN/MBC (whether they have the right or not is another debate) is essentially exercising their power of influence by legal and financial terms. Progamers, although bound by contracts, always had the choice of which game they wanted to play for their professional career. Boxer and other SC1 pros had their own personal reasons to switch to SC2. I don't believe it's moral, at all, to basically force the rest of SC1 progamers into a game they do not want to play.
Again, reinforcing what others have said, Blizzard did not support SC1 to the degree that they can proudly state that "they can continue to support it at the current level" as if it's a significant service. They never bothered starting up or at least encouraging serious leagues (like PL and OSL/MSL), even after they witnessed the possibilities from the Korean e-sports scene. Do not assume e-sports in Korea sprang up all in one moment with all the companies joining at the same time and deciding to have regular leagues with professional teams, and so on. E-sports took time and effort from countless people to arrive at what exists today. The popularity did not jump from zero to hundred (on the scale of zero to hundred) the moment e-sports started; rather, it was gradually built up through all the leagues and tournaments in the history of e-sports. Blizzard never took the initiative to do so, despite having a greater potential in a bigger market (such as North America).
That brings me to my final point. Now that the Koreans have worked heart and soul to get e-sports here, Blizzard steps in to snatch it at the form it is today. How is history of e-sports irrelevant now? Do people need more irrelevant examples like giving a newborn, sickly and weak puppy to a friend 10 years ago then taking it back a healthy dog, expecting the dog to be all nice and friendly to you? Obviously that example is stupid in many ways but I hope people get my point. Blizzard, despite their statements made before and now in this article, will not and cannot sustain the SCBW scene in Korea if they push this issue as they are doing now.
I think it's obvious to a lot of Koreans already that Blizzard at the moment is just trying to make it seem like they aren't the ones to blame. However, after all the years the e-sports have been developing, all the hard work that the Koreans and others put into it. It seems so...stupid and junviel that Blizzard just literally comes in after so long and tries to basically take the credit for all of this.
While I have known for awhile, the original people whom were with Blizzard had move on (mainly to create ArenaNet, creators of Guild Wars), do they really take us as stupid? They had NO hand in helping the scene for as long as I can remember. I can really careless about what they believe they have. The fact that they have resorted to shift blame to the other side is just ludicrous to me. While blame should be obviously on both sides, the fact that I'm wanting Kespa to win this is justified.
I had always been proud of Blizzard, ever since I picked up there games. I have seen them as reasonable and proud. Now my view of them have flipped 180. They can continue saying they want the scene to survive and BS it all you want but us fans here see through it. The fact that you guys, Blizzard, have resorted to trying to stop them from broadcasting means you want BW to die.
Shifting blame isn't answering the question. So don't think we are that stupid. If you TRULY cared like you said you do. Then you should have found a freaken way to resolve this.
i don't think blizzard will win in Korea , but if they do in that second all proleague teams will disappear ( i don't think they care about the bw players at all), bw will not exist anymore, anarchy will be again the word of the day ( so back to stoneera ) , and esport will not exist anymore imo
On October 24 2010 19:09 OpticalShot wrote: The only people this Blizzard personnel is going to convince and impress are the people who just recently joined the e-sports scene as fans - perhaps in 2009 or 2010 - because those people do not know the entire history of e-sports in Korea.
I resent that, i'm not as retarded as some of the other people on this thread. I've only recently started watching pro SC (prolly 6 months ago) lurked on TL for a while and only recently joined yet i dislike SC2 (as an esport but the game itself is fine).
Its so blatantly obvious blizzard wants to kill off BW, not amount of sugar coating, PR crap and spin doctoring will change that. Also i think blizzard doesn't just want the money, they want the control over all facets of the esports scene in Korea. How much control? Obviously too much if the broadcasting stations and KeSPA can't come to an agreement.
But of course this is all speculation on my part and hopefully blizzard will just lose the damn court case and i can fucking watch my lovely BW in peace.
What the fuck did he just talk about? Everything i see is bullshit all around. Supporting BW..what do you mean, i don't know about anything close to that. Throwing tournaments in BW? Only reason i see they might plan that is that they expect SC2 to fail soon and most people will get back to BW and that's when Blizzard will be ready to cash it in... maybe. Just leave the fucking PL alone and go do your homework with updating SC2 into being even bigger "s"crap station.
Would blizzard show broodwar the same love regarding esports that all the current leagues do?
Obviously the answer is "no".
Would it even be close? I doubt it...
If blizzard shut down kespa how many BW tourneys and leagues do you think they would invest into?
On October 24 2010 19:57 Gokey wrote: This whole thing has only one ultimate result... Things are going to shit; we just have to hope that the pro gaming scene will be able t o recover
It is a long shot but I would love to see kespa become empowered by the korean government to handle all esports in korea and shut down disingenuous attempts at esports from blizzard/gom.
You may enjoy GSL, you may even like the production quality, but for me esports is not about missing fusion cores because tasteless needs to zoom in and show you how a building looks close up in a protoss base.
On October 24 2010 13:24 ISighZ wrote: If support for Starcraft 1 has not been reduced, why isn't Starcraft Broodwar play on Blizzcon? There's like so many Starcraft 2 and can't manage to squeeze a slot for Starcraft Broodwar? I would say the support has been reduced.
Really?This looks like there's BW on Blizzcon even though it's for a brief moment.
On October 24 2010 13:24 ISighZ wrote: If support for Starcraft 1 has not been reduced, why isn't Starcraft Broodwar play on Blizzcon? There's like so many Starcraft 2 and can't manage to squeeze a slot for Starcraft Broodwar? I would say the support has been reduced.
Man who knew that the release of SC2 and the conclusion of the IP rights issue from years ago would end creating a retarded tea party-esque movement in the now minoritised BW forums where people throw out any real attempt at being unbiased and just gut react to everything with illogical bollocks while completely ignoring anything that remotely opposes their view point?
That said the average TL poster was never really the cream of the proverbial crop so I guess someone might've seen it coming.
Fuck blizzard those lying cunts, where is their strong support for sc1? one guy doing patches years ago? theres mineral hacks available right now unfixed, lobby hacks, anything you can name it. Doing their best efforts to remove the BW proscene they happily ignored for years for the sales then deciding they want to move it out of the way for the fucking shit GSL timeslot is not supporting SC1. Seriously fuck them, they are lying corporate cunts just trying to make more money as usual as if they dont make enough and the HUGE constant advertisement of their game and the Starcraft brand isn't fucking enough for them. I'm really mad at this, seriously.
Point by point of his bullshit as i read it here here, and just some rambling thoughts but this makes me mad the level of shite they are throwing around here:
- Limitations of time and resources for SC1?? FOR BLIZZARD? THE COMPANY THAT MAKES WOW? Here would be some real support: sponsor a BW team for proleague have foreigners in it, and generally play nice with KeSPA and bring the greatness of BW eSports to a whole new audience.
- We don't want to negatively effect the players yet we are destroying the whole system that gives them salaries, and take away money directly from the companies that pays and houses them. Um yeah... the system you make helps a couple of not even top gamers make a shitload of money in an imbalanced game for a year or so, but what about everyone else?
- The negotiations where their basically own the entire proscene and take cuts of the 'profit' from sponsorship deals and own the players is not FAIR in the least, its complete abuse of their position. They're a fucking game developer. They don't deserve control over any of this and is the courts have any sense they won't get it. And trying to palm it off onto Gretech constantly now is bullsht too, as if they are not making the terms.
- Then they try to say 'oh we'll even make a sittty SC1 tournament to make up for it if we kill it off?' GOM Season 4, with the support of zero of the established proteams. Yeah whoopee thanks Blizzard. I'm sure that will go down a treat.
- You just care about IP rights despite unofficially sanctioning the entire scene for years (the korean wing of Blizzard even licensing MBC/OGN) when it was massively profitable for game sales. Now suddenly oh dear our IP rights, we conveniently ignored them for 7 years now we care while coincidentally SC2 is coming out. monetary gains given to charity are you fucking kidding me? Then why did you TURN DOWN licensing fees for more bullshit reasons. I cannot even believe they would stoop so low in terms of publicity to try and bring charity into it. Take the money, give it to charity and leave it the fuck alone if that was true.
- Although its unprecedented in law, PROLEAGUE is not necessarily Blizzards IP just because its their game either. PROLEAGUE is more than just people playing Starcraft and that's it. The cost to run the scene is enough that broadcasters should infact have to pay a marginal cost to KeSPA to keep the scene running, as TV channels pay FIFA for their broadcasting. The World Cup is FIFAs organization, and its even a better situation than that because KeSPA companies own all the teams involved. Its as if FIFA owned Brazil, Germany etc. and paid all the players and yet a theorectical creator of football wanted a cut of all of it. He might be entitled to something of course yet not being the owner of all of it, taking sponsorship fees and generally being a dick and causing problems for a (theorectical) niche sport.
- Then the rest of it is Blizzard saying oh its Gretech doing it now, they are making the terms not us blah blah except we already know Blizzard did try to make terms originally and they were completely fucking ridiculous. If they care so much about eSports then WHY THE FUCK do you give Gretech of all companies full rights to your own instead of expanding on the completely existing and succcessful BW scene? Clearly for control reasons. Don't give control over whats supposed to be considered a real sport to a FOR PROFIT company. Why should they be anywhere near running an eSports scene instead of you know, the non-profit association that has successfully ran it for many games.
Sorry this is a long and disjointed post but it just makes me sick the way they are trying to go about this. They can go on about IP rights all day but i don't remember anyone mentioning IP rights when there was 100,000 people watching a proleague finals and Korea selling 6 million copies of BW do you?
edited: to make some things more clear. I'd really like to see one of those idiot 2010 joindate posters come in and try to refutre every point with 'wah its blizzards game so they can do literally anything they want with it even if it helps us in no way at all'
On October 24 2010 19:23 ZeroChrome wrote: I think the corporations that make up KeSPA should get together some of their pocket change and just buy Blizzard.
Had me going there for a second, until I realized that it's not Blizzard who's making the decisions, but Activision (more specificially: Kotick). There's no way that Activision will take into account the lives and futures of Starcraft progamers, the livehood of SC1 or the interest of the fans. No way.
You know those horrible tween movie/tv cliches where they say snappy yet awful lines like "I think I just lost half my brain cells listening to you say that!"?
Why the hell are you making me feel like a terrible character from That's So Raven?!?! WHAT DID I EVER DO TO YOU?!
On October 24 2010 22:02 MisteR wrote: Had me going there for a second, until I realized that it's not Blizzard who's making the decisions, but Activision (more specificially: Kotick). There's no way that Activision will take into account the lives and futures of Starcraft progamers, the livehood of SC1 or the interest of the fans. No way.
It bugs me when people do this... blizzard was greedy and uncaring long before activision entered the picture.
Why do you think so many devs left blizzard when they started to change wow into a moneymaking gimmick more than an intuitive game.
Continue to support SC BW? What does that even mean? Not taking down Iccup? Taking down battle.net would actually benefit the SC BW community as it would gather everyone on one server.
Previous Blizzcon and WWI events was more Kespa supporting Blizzard by sending their progamers then the other way around.
Blizzard could have tried to do something for SC BW esports before they released WC3. They never did anything, did they?
SC BW will still be on TV? How? Where? Is Blizzard going to buy all the teams and run leagues under Gretech?
On October 25 2010 00:02 Polydamas wrote: Continue to support SC BW? What does that even mean? Not taking down Iccup? Taking down battle.net would actually benefit the SC BW community as it would gather everyone on one server.
Previous Blizzcon and WWI events was more Kespa supporting Blizzard by sending their progamers then the other way around.
Blizzard could have tried to do something for SC BW esports before they released WC3. They never did anything, did they?
SC BW will still be on TV? How? Where? Is Blizzard going to buy all the teams and run leagues under Gretech?
Maybe they are hoping that everything can continue for some duration while under the GSL system. No teams, only prize money. That will make certain their transition into SC2 and fulfill their promise so Blizzard apologists will have that argument to back up their benevolent overlords.
On October 24 2010 13:24 ISighZ wrote: If support for Starcraft 1 has not been reduced, why isn't Starcraft Broodwar play on Blizzcon? There's like so many Starcraft 2 and can't manage to squeeze a slot for Starcraft Broodwar? I would say the support has been reduced.
I am just wondering: I was just watching a game from BoxeR vs Yellow dated 2002. So all this broadcasting of SC:BW games has been going on for at least 8 years in korea (and looking at the crowd it already seemed pretty popular around 2002). So has Blizzard EVER tried to protect their IP rights during this time ? I do not want to hear arguments like "they would not have stand a chance" I am just wondering if they tried at all.
Or nowadays: Does Blizzard try to stop SC:BW videos on YouTube or other video portals ?
If not how can they claim that they just want to protect their IP rights NOW ? They were not interested in the last 8 years. Actually as far as IP rights are concerned this is a viable defense at least in US Courts: If you can prove that the IP rights holder did not care for a long period of time then this can be used to show that the IP rights holder obviously tries to pick on you in particular and this can be used as a defense in court as far as I know (please someone with law background correct me if I am wrong).
On October 25 2010 01:58 lundril wrote: I am just wondering: I was just watching a game from BoxeR vs Yellow dated 2002. So all this broadcasting of SC:BW games has been going on for at least 8 years in korea (and looking at the crowd it already seemed pretty popular around 2002). So has Blizzard EVER tried to protect their IP rights during this time ? I do not want to hear arguments like "they would not have stand a chance" I am just wondering if they tried at all.
Or nowadays: Does Blizzard try to stop SC:BW videos on YouTube or other video portals ?
If not how can they claim that they just want to protect their IP rights NOW ? They were not interested in the last 8 years. Actually as far as IP rights are concerned this is a viable defense at least in US Courts: If you can prove that the IP rights holder did not care for a long period of time then this can be used to show that the IP rights holder obviously tries to pick on you in particular and this can be used as a defense in court as far as I know (please someone with law background correct me if I am wrong).
I believe that Blizz have only started caring about IP right of BW at the year of 2007, "coincidently" at the announcement of StarCraft 2 lol
No, it was coincidentally when KeSPA started charging for broadcasting fees, there's very little indication that it had anything to do with SC2 other than a load of posters on here pretending that Blizzard have had some evil mastermind plan to destroy brood war. Protip: In the games industry, especially in big development houses that have legal departments, there is very rarely ever a grand co-ordinated effort. The only way it would happen is if the CEO or CFO was a master puppeteer with a penchant for batshit insane plans with no market research at all (i.e. undermining their own game to make short term profit on a newer game).
You guys give Blizzard way too much credit for evil, maniacal plans, but then again trying to argue logic with conspiracy theory is the definition of futile.
On October 25 2010 03:23 leakingpear wrote: No, it was coincidentally when KeSPA started charging for broadcasting fees, there's very little indication that it had anything to do with SC2 other than a load of posters on here pretending that Blizzard have had some evil mastermind plan to destroy brood war. Protip: In the games industry, especially in big development houses that have legal departments, there is very rarely ever a grand co-ordinated effort. The only way it would happen is if the CEO or CFO was a master puppeteer with a penchant for batshit insane plans with no market research at all (i.e. undermining their own game to make short term profit on a newer game).
You guys give Blizzard way too much credit for evil, maniacal plans, but then again trying to argue logic with conspiracy theory is the definition of futile.
Except all those times when blizzard was breaking the negotiations whenever sc2 was getting delayed, right?
Also the rest of your posts is simply ridiculous. Blizzard/gretech clearly stated that they want ProLeague out of gsl's way. They see it as competition to their plan of monetizing sc2 "esports." So if they consider ProLeague a threat, it's only logical they're going to try to get rid of it. Stop being dellusional.
Oh i'm sorry I didn't realise you were at the negotiations, I take it all back!
Jesus christ stop pulling conclusions out of your arse in reaction to snippets of information from a private negotiation where they only time anyone has reported any information has been in the form of trying to either discredit the other party or as a form of generating positive PR. The condition to have enforced GSL times (which coincidentally happened to be times that the matches were being played live like every other tournament in korea), was in reaction to OGN (after agreeing to the negotiations) apparently deciding to put GSL on at specifically non-prime times, not live. Again I could be completely wrong about that, but that was also part of the same set of information leaked/reported/whatever that you're conveniently ignoring.
Let me make this clear: I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING TITMONKEY WHO WINS, I JUST CAN'T STAND THE CONSTANT BULLCRAP THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU KEEP TRYING TO PURPORT AS FACT.
On October 25 2010 03:23 leakingpear wrote: No, it was coincidentally when KeSPA started charging for broadcasting fees, there's very little indication that it had anything to do with SC2 other than a load of posters on here pretending that Blizzard have had some evil mastermind plan to destroy brood war. Protip: In the games industry, especially in big development houses that have legal departments, there is very rarely ever a grand co-ordinated effort. The only way it would happen is if the CEO or CFO was a master puppeteer with a penchant for batshit insane plans with no market research at all (i.e. undermining their own game to make short term profit on a newer game).
You guys give Blizzard way too much credit for evil, maniacal plans, but then again trying to argue logic with conspiracy theory is the definition of futile.
What is mastermindish about it? Trying to neutralize the potential negative effect of the competition should by my logic be part of the objectives of marketing campaigns anyway, if a prominent competitor is already established. I just don't see any motivation for such a move on Blizzards behalf unless they try to destroy it. They are not interested in the money. Have they ever told us what exactly it is that they would like to do when they get those IP rights over the teams and players? I don't recall any such statement. Vague promises of tournaments and hopes it will be shown on TV don't count. If there is a problem with the system, they should at least say what their plan is to improve it. And it's not like control would give them any more benefits than they already have. What can they expect to get? More free advertisement? The name Starcraft alone is being used millions of times a year by those firms. I also can't believe they'd go through all of this so they can get a Blizzard banner in the corner of the Proleague broadcasts.
They have done nothing other than basic stuff by now. And they've done it badly, judging from the needless amounts of hate they are currently receiving. I'd like to see another reasoning behind all of this, so enlighten me with alternate theories, if you'd be so willing.
I can't take this seriously.. Why? KeSPA has been doing this for YEARS, and only now, after sc2 comes out, they want their "ip rights?" Why didn't they ask for ip rights in '02? or even '09? Oh yeah, sc2 didn't come out yet.
And, why can't they earn ogn/mbc's time slots? There's plenty of other games besides starcraft broadcasted on ogn/mbc. If, as time goes on, sc2 is much more popular than bw, then ogn/mbc would be much more open to giving sc2 prime time slots. Gretech looks like they're just trying to steal bw's success.
On October 25 2010 03:49 leakingpear wrote: Oh i'm sorry I didn't realise you were at the negotiations, I take it all back!
Jesus christ stop pulling conclusions out of your arse in reaction to snippets of information from a private negotiation where they only time anyone has reported any information has been in the form of trying to either discredit the other party or as a form of generating positive PR. The condition to have enforced GSL times (which coincidentally happened to be times that the matches were being played live like every other tournament in korea), was in reaction to OGN (after agreeing to the negotiations) apparently deciding to put GSL on at specifically non-prime times, not live. Again I could be completely wrong about that, but that was also part of the same set of information leaked/reported/whatever that you're conveniently ignoring.
Let me make this clear: I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING TITMONKEY WHO WINS, I JUST CAN'T STAND THE CONSTANT BULLCRAP THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU KEEP TRYING TO PURPORT AS FACT.
First of all, why on earth would OGN compromise their own league simply because gretech decided to run gsl at the exact same time as OGN runs theirs? That's a ridiculous demand, and it's stupid of gretech to try bullying OGN into changing the time slots for their leagues (I never ignored that, btw).
Second of all, blizzard officially addressed the NDA leak by KeSPA. They have not denied ANYTHING KeSPA claimed. That includes their ridiculous demands and breaking the negotiations whenever sc2 was being delayed. They could've easily said that those are all lies. The fact that they didn't implies that it's all true.
On October 24 2010 19:23 ZeroChrome wrote: I think the corporations that make up KeSPA should get together some of their pocket change and just buy Blizzard.
Or just Samsung should use their force and remove Activision Blizzard games from WCG and let this games drawn in there own shit like THIS GARBAGE-------->
Looking at the replies to the translated article on Fomos (so the Korean translation of the English interview), it seems like most Koreans are hating on kespa for being so ignorant and lazy in getting negotiations done since 2007. I fully understand that Korean netizens aren't exactly the most mature and reasonable in the world (and the language there pretty much supports this all the way), but the fact that there's so much kespa hate probably says something about how kespa's actions/inactions in the past few years have taken a toll on their popularity.
That being said, I still hate you Activision-Blizzard. If Stork ends up jobless after this I'll be the most sad person in the world.
On October 25 2010 03:23 leakingpear wrote: No, it was coincidentally when KeSPA started charging for broadcasting fees, there's very little indication that it had anything to do with SC2 other than a load of posters on here pretending that Blizzard have had some evil mastermind plan to destroy brood war. Protip: In the games industry, especially in big development houses that have legal departments, there is very rarely ever a grand co-ordinated effort. The only way it would happen is if the CEO or CFO was a master puppeteer with a penchant for batshit insane plans with no market research at all (i.e. undermining their own game to make short term profit on a newer game).
You guys give Blizzard way too much credit for evil, maniacal plans, but then again trying to argue logic with conspiracy theory is the definition of futile.
What is mastermindish about it? Trying to neutralize the potential negative effect of the competition should by my logic be part of the objectives of marketing campaigns anyway, if a prominent competitor is already established. I just don't see any motivation for such a move on Blizzards behalf unless they try to destroy it. They are not interested in the money. Have they ever told us what exactly it is that they would like to do when they get those IP rights over the teams and players? I don't recall any such statement. Vague promises of tournaments and hopes it will be shown on TV don't count. If there is a problem with the system, they should at least say what their plan is to improve it. And it's not like control would give them any more benefits than they already have. What can they expect to get? More free advertisement? The name Starcraft alone is being used millions of times a year by those firms. I also can't believe they'd go through all of this so they can get a Blizzard banner in the corner of the Proleague broadcasts.
They have done nothing other than basic stuff by now. And they've done it badly, judging from the needless amounts of hate they are currently receiving. I'd like to see another reasoning behind all of this, so enlighten me with alternate theories, if you'd be so willing.
First things first, I think you and everyone else is right about the whole player's being contracted under Blizzard thing, if that is true. That said the only time it was referenced was in a press release by KeSPA and hasn't been mentioned since, it's pretty likely that if it is true it was an attempt at trying to over-reach in negotiations in order to gain more favourable terms on other issues but again that's pure conjecture. Blizzard are very likely not to release information about what happened during the negotiations as they will want to use the KeSPA NDA breaking issue as a key point during any future litigation.
Secondly, the IP rights issue with regards to proleague all stemmed from the KeSPA broadcasting fee decision, there's nothing to implicate that it had anything to do with SC2 (the negotiations started almost immediately upon KeSPA's decision). Yes obviously any resulting deal would be for Blizzard as a whole in terms of any future games that would feasibly under KeSPA stewardship but there's absolutely no indication it was started with a grand scheme of getting KeSPA out of the way for them to run all leagues and abolish the Korean BW scene.
Third, (this doesn't apply to you as much as you're atleast attempting to approach this logically) there's very little evidence to support the idea that any Blizzard/Gretech (again we don't know how much is Blizzard and how much is Gretech) wanted the licensing fee for actual financial gain and not as a means to formalise that Blizzard's IP rights were being respected. IP rights are important going forward for Blizzard (as I understand it) as not consistantly protecting them means it's harder to win litigation when they are under significant threat (e.g. a Korean company producing a copy of BW and selling that, or making it free). It's a very shaky area for the games industry in general, IP rights to franchises are worth huge amounts of money and it's pretty much the entire reason for a game development house or publisher to have a legal department.
My main point is that without all the facts of what happened in the negotiations, there's nothing to indicate that any of this was part of any concerted effort to remove KeSPA or the existing BW infrastructure until the point at which negotiations broke down. Yes of course they're going to sue them now, negotiations failed and Blizzard have the legal authority, whether the negotiations broke down because KeSPA were too stubborn or Blizzard were asking for way too much it's almost impossible to tell, there's just not enough information to take either side.
As for any Activision/Kotick/Vivendi bollocks, all of that is people literally pulling things out of thin air, Blizzard have been very clear about maintaining their independence from Activision as a whole and they wouldn't have any perceivable reason to not handle it all internally in the direction they wanted to go.
edit: The end of the first paragraph can serve as a response to you too maybenexttime.
On October 25 2010 03:23 leakingpear wrote: No, it was coincidentally when KeSPA started charging for broadcasting fees, there's very little indication that it had anything to do with SC2 other than a load of posters on here pretending that Blizzard have had some evil mastermind plan to destroy brood war. Protip: In the games industry, especially in big development houses that have legal departments, there is very rarely ever a grand co-ordinated effort. The only way it would happen is if the CEO or CFO was a master puppeteer with a penchant for batshit insane plans with no market research at all (i.e. undermining their own game to make short term profit on a newer game).
You guys give Blizzard way too much credit for evil, maniacal plans, but then again trying to argue logic with conspiracy theory is the definition of futile.
What is mastermindish about it? Trying to neutralize the potential negative effect of the competition should by my logic be part of the objectives of marketing campaigns anyway, if a prominent competitor is already established. I just don't see any motivation for such a move on Blizzards behalf unless they try to destroy it. They are not interested in the money. Have they ever told us what exactly it is that they would like to do when they get those IP rights over the teams and players? I don't recall any such statement. Vague promises of tournaments and hopes it will be shown on TV don't count. If there is a problem with the system, they should at least say what their plan is to improve it. And it's not like control would give them any more benefits than they already have. What can they expect to get? More free advertisement? The name Starcraft alone is being used millions of times a year by those firms. I also can't believe they'd go through all of this so they can get a Blizzard banner in the corner of the Proleague broadcasts.
They have done nothing other than basic stuff by now. And they've done it badly, judging from the needless amounts of hate they are currently receiving. I'd like to see another reasoning behind all of this, so enlighten me with alternate theories, if you'd be so willing.
First things first, I think you and everyone else is right about the whole player's being contracted under Blizzard thing, if that is true. That said the only time it was referenced was in a press release by KeSPA and hasn't been mentioned since, it's pretty likely that if it is true it was an attempt at trying to over-reach in negotiations in order to gain more favourable terms on other issues but again that's pure conjecture. Blizzard are very likely not to release information about what happened during the negotiations as they will want to use the KeSPA NDA breaking issue as a key point during any future litigation.
Secondly, the IP rights issue with regards to proleague all stemmed from the KeSPA broadcasting fee decision, there's nothing to implicate that it had anything to do with SC2 (the negotiations started almost immediately upon KeSPA's decision). Yes obviously any resulting deal would be for Blizzard as a whole in terms of any future games that would feasibly under KeSPA stewardship but there's absolutely no indication it was started with a grand scheme of getting KeSPA out of the way for them to run all leagues and abolish the Korean BW scene.
Third, (this doesn't apply to you as much as you're atleast attempting to approach this logically) there's very little evidence to support the idea that any Blizzard/Gretech (again we don't know how much is Blizzard and how much is Gretech) wanted the licensing fee for actual financial gain and not as a means to formalise that Blizzard's IP rights were being respected. IP rights are important going forward for Blizzard (as I understand it) as not consistantly protecting them means it's harder to win litigation when they are under significant threat (e.g. a Korean company producing a copy of BW and selling that, or making it free). It's a very shaky area for the games industry in general, IP rights to franchises are worth huge amounts of money and it's pretty much the entire reason for a game development house or publisher to have a legal department.
My main point is that without all the facts of what happened in the negotiations, there's nothing to indicate that any of this was part of any concerted effort to remove KeSPA or the existing BW infrastructure until the point at which negotiations broke down. Yes of course they're going to sue them now, negotiations failed and Blizzard have the legal authority, whether the negotiations broke down because KeSPA were too stubborn or Blizzard were asking for way too much it's almost impossible to tell, there's just not enough information to take either side.
As for any Activision/Kotick/Vivendi bollocks, all of that is people literally pulling things out of thin air, Blizzard have been very clear about maintaining their independence from Activision as a whole and they wouldn't have any perceivable reason to not handle it all internally in the direction they wanted to go.
edit: The end of the first paragraph can serve as a response to you too maybenexttime.
I'd like to give you credit for not being offended by my somewhat patronizing tone. I am not informed on the subject and while I *do* have a position on the matter at hand, I'd like to know as much as I can as there is literally nothing else that I can do till the court ruling.
I really can't argue where it started or what it's original intent is or was. I feel that the intent now is to kill the Proleague, as I haven't seen anything that KeSPA has done except for organizing and enforcing tournaments. This leads to a conclusion that the tournaments are the reason Blizzard wants to take control. I'm fairly new, I hope you understand. Has KeSPA later on declared their stance on broadcasting fees again? They could simply rename those things while accomplishing the same thing- leasing out their players to the stations. Or is that already unacceptable for Blizzard? Isn't it a far leap to go from broadcasting games to actually distributing copies of someone elses game for free or selling it? Killing an entire industry just to be sure seems really foolhardy to me. Am I missing something?
I think it's a bit too late for that to be honest, they essentially stirred up a hornet's nest by poking it gently, then when they started getting angry decided to keep poking it on principal. I don't think there's anything to suggest Blizzard are intent on destroying the Proleague as much as the issue is around the licensing of the proleague (as I understand it there was no attempt on Kespa's end to charge for using their players in individual, channel owned leagues). Therefore any action against KeSPA is going to negatively effect the proleague because that's really all KeSPA have in terms of assets they can use.
I think it's very easy and wrong to assume that the end of KeSPA means the prohibition of any team based league in the future, there's a number of SC2 teams that form naturally who will more than likely end up attracting the same amount of advertising and there's already been a number of team based events, all without any governing body. I think it's really dangerous to equate the great times of BW, the team rivalries, the players that were trained by teams and so on, with KeSPA's involvement in any way. It's a consortium of sponsors, driven by KT/SKTelecom more than the others, where the players' and fans' interests were never the prime motivation for their actions, just the amount of people watching. They ended up putting up barriers to progaming while putting teams in the hands of sponsors and players in the position of having to conform to their approach at all costs.
That said it seems unlikely that we'll see anything on the level of Proleague again for BW if they do lose, but I don't think it's absurd to say that in the next few years (just going by the consistent trend downwards of viewers since the Boxer era) that even without SC2 and this whole debaucle it wouldn't be around or would be heavily scaled down. I don't really want to continue on this point as I think it's too easy to get stuck in an endless loop of predicting the future that can never happen where some people will argue BW is this age's chess and blah blah blah.
As for whether it's a far leap to go from broadcasting to distributing copies, the issue isn't the broadcasting, it's the charging for the broadcasting, thus why it all started in 2007. I'm not sure if KeSPA ever reneged on the charging fees thing, you'd think they would but again I don't think anyone knows (unless i've missed something).
I think Blizzard probably think that taking control of approving and disallowing events and leagues (including individual leagues) is more of an attempt to avoid this in the future, but there probably is a case for the lord of the rings-esque no one entity should have that much power argument. I think it's one of those things that people will tend to extrapolate to some grandiose idea of holding back eSports becoming mainstream though, people love slippery slope arguments.
On October 24 2010 13:01 Selith wrote: We will continue to support StarCraft 1 no matter what, and will continue to open new tournaments. The chance for that will continue to be provided. We don't want to see progamer teams or big progamer-based groups to be disbanded due to this.
- StarCraft 1 tournaments? What is this about?
A. We are working with many different partner companies worldwide. Through the partners, we will continue to open tournaments and will support them. Our business is varied -- WoW, WarCraft 3, StarCraft and such. Due to the limitation of time and resources, right now, we have to choose and focus. But support for StarCraft 1 will not be reduced now or later.
I don't believe you sorry. There was no Sc1 Blizzcon tourney.
This was my first thought, but when you actually think about it it was probably hard getting players because most of the foreign scene went to SC2 although I am sure you can still get some good people if they actually tried and to get Koreans would of been problematic because of the issues they are having with KeSPA. I can't see any teams allowing there players to go to an event hosted by a company that is trying to destroy their livelihood.
They could've adleast made the effort to get players or at least have a BW tournaments with like SC2 players like Idra or the Chinese instead of abandoning it completely.
Yes, put in the money/effort and use up very valuable time in a 2-day schedule to run a shitty tournament that won't have any good players because the good players either all moved on to SC2 or KeSPA won't allow them to play.
Great idea.
am just wondering: I was just watching a game from BoxeR vs Yellow dated 2002. So all this broadcasting of SC:BW games has been going on for at least 8 years in korea (and looking at the crowd it already seemed pretty popular around 2002). So has Blizzard EVER tried to protect their IP rights during this time ? I do not want to hear arguments like "they would not have stand a chance" I am just wondering if they tried at all.
Or nowadays: Does Blizzard try to stop SC:BW videos on YouTube or other video portals ?
If not how can they claim that they just want to protect their IP rights NOW ? They were not interested in the last 8 years. Actually as far as IP rights are concerned this is a viable defense at least in US Courts: If you can prove that the IP rights holder did not care for a long period of time then this can be used to show that the IP rights holder obviously tries to pick on you in particular and this can be used as a defense in court as far as I know (please someone with law background correct me if I am wrong).
Don't talk about what you don't know about. Blizzard cared once KeSPA tried to make money off of the Blizzard IP - they weren't trying to before then.
On October 25 2010 05:44 leakingpear wrote: I think it's a bit too late for that to be honest, they essentially stirred up a hornet's nest by poking it gently, then when they started getting angry decided to keep poking it on principal. I don't think there's anything to suggest Blizzard are intent on destroying the Proleague as much as the issue is around the licensing of the proleague (as I understand it there was no attempt on Kespa's end to charge for using their players in individual, channel owned leagues). Therefore any action against KeSPA is going to negatively effect the proleague because that's really all KeSPA have in terms of assets they can use.
I think it's very easy and wrong to assume that the end of KeSPA means the prohibition of any team based league in the future, there's a number of SC2 teams that form naturally who will more than likely end up attracting the same amount of advertising and there's already been a number of team based events, all without any governing body. I think it's really dangerous to equate the great times of BW, the team rivalries, the players that were trained by teams and so on, with KeSPA's involvement in any way. It's a consortium of sponsors, driven by KT/SKTelecom more than the others, where the players' and fans' interests were never the prime motivation for their actions, just the amount of people watching. They ended up putting up barriers to progaming while putting teams in the hands of sponsors and players in the position of having to conform to their approach at all costs.
That said it seems unlikely that we'll see anything on the level of Proleague again for BW if they do lose, but I don't think it's absurd to say that in the next few years (just going by the consistent trend downwards of viewers since the Boxer era) that even without SC2 and this whole debaucle it wouldn't be around or would be heavily scaled down. I don't really want to continue on this point as I think it's too easy to get stuck in an endless loop of predicting the future that can never happen where some people will argue BW is this age's chess and blah blah blah.
As for whether it's a far leap to go from broadcasting to distributing copies, the issue isn't the broadcasting, it's the charging for the broadcasting, thus why it all started in 2007. I'm not sure if KeSPA ever reneged on the charging fees thing, you'd think they would but again I don't think anyone knows (unless i've missed something).
I think Blizzard probably think that taking control of approving and disallowing events and leagues (including individual leagues) is more of an attempt to avoid this in the future, but there probably is a case for the lord of the rings-esque no one entity should have that much power argument. I think it's one of those things that people will tend to extrapolate to some grandiose idea of holding back eSports becoming mainstream though, people love slippery slope arguments.
Good points. Includes both sides being stubborn, both being idiots and one being good for SC1. I guess I don't have to change my position after all.
EDIT: Spoilered your post for less usage of forum space.
On October 24 2010 13:01 Selith wrote: We will continue to support StarCraft 1 no matter what, and will continue to open new tournaments. The chance for that will continue to be provided. We don't want to see progamer teams or big progamer-based groups to be disbanded due to this.
- StarCraft 1 tournaments? What is this about?
A. We are working with many different partner companies worldwide. Through the partners, we will continue to open tournaments and will support them. Our business is varied -- WoW, WarCraft 3, StarCraft and such. Due to the limitation of time and resources, right now, we have to choose and focus. But support for StarCraft 1 will not be reduced now or later.
I don't believe you sorry. There was no Sc1 Blizzcon tourney.
This was my first thought, but when you actually think about it it was probably hard getting players because most of the foreign scene went to SC2 although I am sure you can still get some good people if they actually tried and to get Koreans would of been problematic because of the issues they are having with KeSPA. I can't see any teams allowing there players to go to an event hosted by a company that is trying to destroy their livelihood.
They could've adleast made the effort to get players or at least have a BW tournaments with like SC2 players like Idra or the Chinese instead of abandoning it completely.
Yes, put in the money/effort and use up very valuable time in a 2-day schedule to run a shitty tournament that won't have any good players because the good players either all moved on to SC2 or KeSPA won't allow them to play.
am just wondering: I was just watching a game from BoxeR vs Yellow dated 2002. So all this broadcasting of SC:BW games has been going on for at least 8 years in korea (and looking at the crowd it already seemed pretty popular around 2002). So has Blizzard EVER tried to protect their IP rights during this time ? I do not want to hear arguments like "they would not have stand a chance" I am just wondering if they tried at all.
Or nowadays: Does Blizzard try to stop SC:BW videos on YouTube or other video portals ?
If not how can they claim that they just want to protect their IP rights NOW ? They were not interested in the last 8 years. Actually as far as IP rights are concerned this is a viable defense at least in US Courts: If you can prove that the IP rights holder did not care for a long period of time then this can be used to show that the IP rights holder obviously tries to pick on you in particular and this can be used as a defense in court as far as I know (please someone with law background correct me if I am wrong).
Don't talk about what you don't know about. Blizzard cared once KeSPA tried to make money off of the Blizzard IP - they weren't trying to before then.
As far as I'm concerned, this year's WCG was a success despite the fact that most foreigners moved to sc2.
1/ Let me re-enact the NDA between Kespa and Blizz: Kespa: Blizzard was being ridiculous with their demands.. Those were <insert those 6 demands>. Blizz: Hey i thought we agreed to not tell people about that?
Cmon guys.. True that Kespa broke the NDA, but it is not incomprehensible when they are facing heavy criticism from fans, accusing them of being unwilling to negotiate.. While not being the most law-abiding move, they also had their reasons that those demands cant be met.. And only way people would believe that is to make it public and let the people decide..
Blizz, who DID address this issue, didnt refute ANY of Kespa's claim.. This only serve (imo) to further cementing the fact that Kespa wasnt lying.. I mean if the other guy broke the NDA, and STILL blatantly lying to the public about Blizz, they have all the rights and reason one would ever need to defend themselves.
2/ They said that their support for BW wont reduce? Of course.. i find it hard to further reduce something that practically doesnt exist. Blizz made the game, get paid (lots, mind).. Thats what game producers do, and they should stick to that. They have no experience in E-sport (god look at their SC2 maps), and leaving them in control wont do anyone any good, outside of that bunch of casuals that will jump ship the as soon as the next Pokemon game comes out.
3/ Lets forget their peculiar form of gratitude for 1000000 years worth of advertisement (sueing their benefactor) for a moment. Heres what Blizz said
StarCraft 1 tournaments? What is this about?
A. We are working with many different partner companies worldwide. Through the partners, we will continue to open tournaments and will support them. Our business is varied -- WoW, WarCraft 3, StarCraft and such. Due to the limitation of time and resources, right now, we have to choose and focus. But support for StarCraft 1 will not be reduced now or later.
WoW tourney? SC1 tourney? WC3 support? Cmon hes either piss drunk or hit wrong in the head.. Havnt heard of any WoW tourney after OrangeMarmalade, and even that one was a disaster (and was aeons ago).. WC3 of late received as much support as Hitler would give to World Peace... And SC1 tourney? Lol?
I dont know about casual readers.. But as one whos spend a decent amount of time in the gaming scene, i find this crap too hard to swallow... If they are gonna pull a PR stunts.. At least dont shoot urself in the crotch and mention those things..
Exactly, the reason why KeSPA broke the NDA was because the vast majority of people were giving blizzard a HUGE benefit of a doubt - including most of the current KeSPA/BW supporters. I know I did.
In blizzard's best inerest was keeping those demands secret because their fans trusted them while they were already fed up with KeSPA's shenanigans. Blizzard took advantage of our trust.
When I read this, it read exactly like a propaganda pamphlet. It reiterates the same statements over and over and over again: "We will continue to support Brood War." "We just want our IP rights." A classic technique in propaganda called Big Lie (look up blackwhite in Newspeak).
On October 25 2010 07:04 maybenexttime wrote: Exactly, the reason why KeSPA broke the NDA was because the vast majority of people were giving blizzard a HUGE benefit of a doubt - including most of the current KeSPA/BW supporters. I know I did.
In blizzard's best inerest was keeping those demands secret because their fans trusted them while they were already fed up with KeSPA's shenanigans. Blizzard took advantage of our trust.
You're just making up conclusions to support your arguments.
On October 25 2010 07:04 maybenexttime wrote: Exactly, the reason why KeSPA broke the NDA was because the vast majority of people were giving blizzard a HUGE benefit of a doubt - including most of the current KeSPA/BW supporters. I know I did.
In blizzard's best inerest was keeping those demands secret because their fans trusted them while they were already fed up with KeSPA's shenanigans. Blizzard took advantage of our trust.
You're just making up conclusions to support your arguments.
Honestly it's not worth the effort, for every one person you convince not to reinforce their assumptions with more assumptions and opinions, there's 5 more posts that completely ignore you because they really don't want to have to think, they just want to express their adolescent rage. Apparently getting angry in BW lawsuit threads is the new nu-metal.
On October 25 2010 07:04 maybenexttime wrote: Exactly, the reason why KeSPA broke the NDA was because the vast majority of people were giving blizzard a HUGE benefit of a doubt - including most of the current KeSPA/BW supporters. I know I did.
In blizzard's best inerest was keeping those demands secret because their fans trusted them while they were already fed up with KeSPA's shenanigans. Blizzard took advantage of our trust.
You're just making up conclusions to support your arguments.
Ya thats true, and everything Blizzard said is also true.
I find it hard to stomach all the bullshit that Blizzard is spewing. Seriously. Support for SC1? Not wanting to negatively affect the players? I can honestly understand the rage felt by many whom have posted before me.
What Blizzard don't understand is that BW is more than a business enterprise for Korea, it's also a cultural thing. A passion for E-Sports that they can never understand with their narrow-minded capitalist line of thinking. I sincerely hope Kespa is going to roll them over in court proceedings with the support of the Korean government.
Honestly,I support the players and not Blizzard or KeSPA and you guys should do the same I'll accept any judgment as long as the players can also accept it.
That being said I really want to believe this interview because I really don't think this Paul Sams is lying but looking at what happened so far.....its only wanting to believe and just believe.
On October 25 2010 09:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: Honestly,I support the players and not Blizzard or KeSPA and you guys should do the same I'll accept any judgment as long as the players can also accept it.
That being said I really want to believe this interview because I really don't think this Paul Sams is lying but looking at what happened so far.....its only wanting to believe and just believe.
Well Kespa is pretty much the remaining team's representatives and team offers money to the players so essentially by supporting Kespa, you are supporting the player's team and ultimately the players.
On October 25 2010 09:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: Honestly,I support the players and not Blizzard or KeSPA and you guys should do the same I'll accept any judgment as long as the players can also accept it.
That being said I really want to believe this interview because I really don't think this Paul Sams is lying but looking at what happened so far.....its only wanting to believe and just believe.
Well Kespa is pretty much the remaining team's representatives and team offers money to the players so essentially by supporting Kespa, you are supporting the player's team and ultimately the players.
As much as you say that KeSPA doesn't really voice the opinions of the players,player might want a new system rather than the current system that KeSPA runs.Or maybe they want the old KeSPA back.
On October 25 2010 10:09 Phradamon wrote: Regarding player's protection: eSTRO disbabded just when they performed their best season. I am so mad at Blizzard...
what?It was an issue with their sponsor not blizzard.Please don't point fingers just because your mad.
lundril for god's sake at least attempt to read the whole thread, it's been stated about a thousand times that this started in 2007 when KeSPA started charging broadcasting rights for Proleague to MBC and OGN, it has nothing to do with SC2 in its origin.
i think one of the reason for the lawsuit is for Blizz to establish a strong legal precedent for broadcasting games, that way any future broadcasts for SC2 will be fulling billable products.
Blizzard actions about SC:BW scene are ALL thinking in long term profit for them and are planned(I will post when i got time the reasons why I think that in a business way), if I were a shareholder of Blizz I will be very happy of how the management is little by little building up this case, but I am a RTS gamer and fan and here I am with Kespa all along because I care about watching a RTS game at his ultimate level of play, and that has been built by players, fans, sponsors (Kespa) and broadcasting companies thru years in Korea, and believe me newcomers to the RTS world if Blizzard win this, it is not going to be good for you in the next years coming.
On October 25 2010 05:44 leakingpear wrote:As for whether it's a far leap to go from broadcasting to distributing copies, the issue isn't the broadcasting, it's the charging for the broadcasting, thus why it all started in 2007. I'm not sure if KeSPA ever reneged on the charging fees thing, you'd think they would but again I don't think anyone knows (unless i've missed something).
I think Blizzard probably think that taking control of approving and disallowing events and leagues (including individual leagues) is more of an attempt to avoid this in the future, but there probably is a case for the lord of the rings-esque no one entity should have that much power argument. I think it's one of those things that people will tend to extrapolate to some grandiose idea of holding back eSports becoming mainstream though, people love slippery slope arguments.
If that was the case, then why didn't blizzard interefere and start the "negotiations" when OGN tried to charge for watching OSL live or when MBC started charging for VODs (not sure if they still do)? That was way before 2007.
On October 25 2010 07:04 maybenexttime wrote: Exactly, the reason why KeSPA broke the NDA was because the vast majority of people were giving blizzard a HUGE benefit of a doubt - including most of the current KeSPA/BW supporters. I know I did.
In blizzard's best inerest was keeping those demands secret because their fans trusted them while they were already fed up with KeSPA's shenanigans. Blizzard took advantage of our trust.
You're just making up conclusions to support your arguments.
I'm not making anything up. If you actually followed the discussion regadring the negotiations since the very beginning, you'd know what I'm talking about.
On October 25 2010 09:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: Honestly,I support the players and not Blizzard or KeSPA and you guys should do the same I'll accept any judgment as long as the players can also accept it.
That being said I really want to believe this interview because I really don't think this Paul Sams is lying but looking at what happened so far.....its only wanting to believe and just believe.
Well Kespa is pretty much the remaining team's representatives and team offers money to the players so essentially by supporting Kespa, you are supporting the player's team and ultimately the players.
As much as you say that KeSPA doesn't really voice the opinions of the players,player might want a new system rather than the current system that KeSPA runs.Or maybe they want the old KeSPA back.
On October 25 2010 10:09 Phradamon wrote: Regarding player's protection: eSTRO disbabded just when they performed their best season. I am so mad at Blizzard...
what?It was an issue with their sponsor not blizzard.Please don't point fingers just because your mad.
Sigh... The reason why eSTRO disbanded is PRECISELY because of the whole IP rights fiasco. IEG, the owner of eSTRO, decided to withdraw from sponsoring a team after blizzard essentially questioned the rights to ProLeague they bought for a lot of money.
Could someone explain to me (and use small words so I can understand) why Kespa can't just give Blizzard what they want? Maybe it's not 100% "fair" because they are the ones who built ESPORTS but Blizzard did build the game that made it possible. Would it be so hard to just give Blizzard what they wanted and then just get on with Proleague? (serious question, these threads get so long so fast with so many different opinions I don't think I really get it.)
On October 25 2010 07:04 maybenexttime wrote: Exactly, the reason why KeSPA broke the NDA was because the vast majority of people were giving blizzard a HUGE benefit of a doubt - including most of the current KeSPA/BW supporters. I know I did.
In blizzard's best inerest was keeping those demands secret because their fans trusted them while they were already fed up with KeSPA's shenanigans. Blizzard took advantage of our trust.
You're just making up conclusions to support your arguments.
Honestly it's not worth the effort, for every one person you convince not to reinforce their assumptions with more assumptions and opinions, there's 5 more posts that completely ignore you because they really don't want to have to think, they just want to express their adolescent rage. Apparently getting angry in BW lawsuit threads is the new nu-metal.
Of course, replying to an argument with patronizing comment and not a shred of logic is mature, and convincing? If you want to make a point, provide others with a reason to do so, rather than "its not worth the effort" because if its that you think, PM the other guy instead of littering the thread with garbage useless comments.
You guys who believe in Blizz are only trusting them.. I have yet to see any arguments in Blizz's defence as to why them being in control would be a Good thing for e-Sports.. Only form of pro-Blizz arguments so far: talking down on Kespa's mistakes to make Blizz look good.
Just to reiterate some points from my side (there are way more)
1/ Blizz has no experience (horrendous maps) 2/ No intention of supporting competitive play (no LAN support.. and they claims on WoW tourneys lols) 3/ They already affect players negatively (teams disbanding T_T)
[QUOTE]On October 25 2010 16:25 ffreakk wrote: [QUOTE]On October 25 2010 07:37 leakingpear wrote: [QUOTE]On October 25 2010 07:15 toadstool wrote: [QUOTE]On October 25 2010 07:04 maybenexttime wrote: Exactly, the reason why KeSPA broke the NDA was because the vast majority of people were giving blizzard a HUGE benefit of a doubt - including most of the current KeSPA/BW supporters. I know I did.
In blizzard's best inerest was keeping those demands secret because their fans trusted them while they were already fed up with KeSPA's shenanigans. Blizzard took advantage of our trust.[/QUOTE]
You're just making up conclusions to support your arguments.[/QUOTE]
Just to reiterate some points from my side (there are way more)
1/ Blizz has no experience (horrendous maps) 2/ No intention of supporting competitive play (no LAN support.. and they claims on WoW tourneys lols) 3/ They already affect players negatively (teams disbanding T_T)[/QUOTE]
But your points are shaky in themselves:
1/ The maps will get better, this a broad subject. I doubt KESPA released awesome maps straight off the bat. 2/ WoW is competitive play. They ARE supporting competitive play, look at their balancing team and the GSL. 3/ This could be seen two-fold; either Blizzards fault for not working with KESPA or KESPA's fault for not working with Blizzard.
Perhaps we're seeing it in different view points -__________________________-
On October 25 2010 05:50 Stratos_speAr wrote: Don't talk about what you don't know about. Blizzard cared once KeSPA tried to make money off of the Blizzard IP - they weren't trying to before then.
Making doesn't necessarily mean profit. The money to run this complex scene has to come from somewhere, Proleague could be any game and it still would require money to be run. I assume by 2007 the costs had increased to the point where this was a step to take the financial burden off the sponsors and keep BW alive, rather than the sponsors just giving up.
On October 25 2010 16:16 LaughingTulkas wrote: Could someone explain to me (and use small words so I can understand) why Kespa can't just give Blizzard what they want? Maybe it's not 100% "fair" because they are the ones who built ESPORTS but Blizzard did build the game that made it possible. Would it be so hard to just give Blizzard what they wanted and then just get on with Proleague? (serious question, these threads get so long so fast with so many different opinions I don't think I really get it.)
Because Blizzard didn't accept licensing fee's they want more control than just fee's paid, and the want the shitty GSL broadcast ahead of Proleague despite not earning any right to, as well as may other terms they decided they wanted.
The fact that a game developer made a game so all money involved should go in some way towards them is just wrong if we want to develop a true eSports scene. KeSPA wanted money from broadcasters because they pay for the teams involved and they find the sponsors, seems reasonable. They are not charging money for Starcraft itself, and Blizzard has nothing to do with competitive play other than they made the game. A license fee is fair but the extent of their demands was ridiculous.
On October 25 2010 05:44 leakingpear wrote:As for whether it's a far leap to go from broadcasting to distributing copies, the issue isn't the broadcasting, it's the charging for the broadcasting, thus why it all started in 2007. I'm not sure if KeSPA ever reneged on the charging fees thing, you'd think they would but again I don't think anyone knows (unless i've missed something).
I think Blizzard probably think that taking control of approving and disallowing events and leagues (including individual leagues) is more of an attempt to avoid this in the future, but there probably is a case for the lord of the rings-esque no one entity should have that much power argument. I think it's one of those things that people will tend to extrapolate to some grandiose idea of holding back eSports becoming mainstream though, people love slippery slope arguments.
If that was the case, then why didn't blizzard interefere and start the "negotiations" when OGN tried to charge for watching OSL live or when MBC started charging for VODs (not sure if they still do)? That was way before 2007.
Well because one is charging for produced content and another is charging for a license to produce content on a product KeSPA doesn't own? If you don't get the gigantic difference between those two I don't really know how else to explain it.
On October 25 2010 07:04 maybenexttime wrote: Exactly, the reason why KeSPA broke the NDA was because the vast majority of people were giving blizzard a HUGE benefit of a doubt - including most of the current KeSPA/BW supporters. I know I did.
In blizzard's best inerest was keeping those demands secret because their fans trusted them while they were already fed up with KeSPA's shenanigans. Blizzard took advantage of our trust.
You're just making up conclusions to support your arguments.
Honestly it's not worth the effort, for every one person you convince not to reinforce their assumptions with more assumptions and opinions, there's 5 more posts that completely ignore you because they really don't want to have to think, they just want to express their adolescent rage. Apparently getting angry in BW lawsuit threads is the new nu-metal.
Of course, replying to an argument with patronizing comment and not a shred of logic is mature, and convincing? If you want to make a point, provide others with a reason to do so, rather than "its not worth the effort" because if its that you think, PM the other guy instead of littering the thread with garbage useless comments.
You guys who believe in Blizz are only trusting them.. I have yet to see any arguments in Blizz's defence as to why them being in control would be a Good thing for e-Sports.. Only form of pro-Blizz arguments so far: talking down on Kespa's mistakes to make Blizz look good.
Just to reiterate some points from my side (there are way more)
1/ Blizz has no experience (horrendous maps) 2/ No intention of supporting competitive play (no LAN support.. and they claims on WoW tourneys lols) 3/ They already affect players negatively (teams disbanding T_T)
Thanks for conveniently ignoring the entire page of incredibly in depth posts on the previous page, only for another person to do the exact same thing of passing opinion off as fact that the entire page of indepth posts was about.
I'm really done with this thread as any time I try to counter this inane vitriol with a logical and unbiased approach I get a reply refuting me that not only makes little grammatical sense, it's just more creating facts out of thin air to support their opinions. Honestly I don't really get why everyone is being so close minded about an issue they have no control over and where both sides are nowhere close to heroes.
Nice politically correct interview.. However, pretending to care about SC1 and promising tournaments is really not cool when it's obvious they don't actually care
On October 25 2010 05:44 leakingpear wrote:As for whether it's a far leap to go from broadcasting to distributing copies, the issue isn't the broadcasting, it's the charging for the broadcasting, thus why it all started in 2007. I'm not sure if KeSPA ever reneged on the charging fees thing, you'd think they would but again I don't think anyone knows (unless i've missed something).
I think Blizzard probably think that taking control of approving and disallowing events and leagues (including individual leagues) is more of an attempt to avoid this in the future, but there probably is a case for the lord of the rings-esque no one entity should have that much power argument. I think it's one of those things that people will tend to extrapolate to some grandiose idea of holding back eSports becoming mainstream though, people love slippery slope arguments.
If that was the case, then why didn't blizzard interefere and start the "negotiations" when OGN tried to charge for watching OSL live or when MBC started charging for VODs (not sure if they still do)? That was way before 2007.
Well because one is charging for produced content and another is charging for a license to produce content on a product KeSPA doesn't own? If you don't get the gigantic difference between those two I don't really know how else to explain it.
They charged OGN/MBC for ProLeague, which is predominantly their product. It's you who does not get that. KeSPA never charged for broadcasting StarCraft, which is what you're implying...
There is no "gigantic difference" between charging for ProLeague (KeSPA product more or less) and charging for MSL/OSL (MBC/OGN product) - there is hardly any at all.
On October 25 2010 20:50 MidKnight wrote: Nice politically correct interview.. However, pretending to care about SC1 and promising tournaments is really not cool when it's obvious they don't actually care
It really feels like that interview is an insult to one's intelligence.
On October 25 2010 10:41 leakingpear wrote: lundril for god's sake at least attempt to read the whole thread, it's been stated about a thousand times that this started in 2007 when KeSPA started charging broadcasting rights for Proleague to MBC and OGN, it has nothing to do with SC2 in its origin.
Dude, what you have to realize is the general population is not very intelligent, and don't have the mental capacity to think about things in the logical manner to understand what they read or hear. Basically stupid people will always be stupid. As you said u convince one person who just didn't understand and then 5 more morons come out of the woodwork and ignore what you just said.
1/ The maps will get better, this a broad subject. I doubt KESPA released awesome maps straight off the bat. 2/ WoW is competitive play. They ARE supporting competitive play, look at their balancing team and the GSL. 3/ This could be seen two-fold; either Blizzards fault for not working with KESPA or KESPA's fault for not working with Blizzard.
Perhaps we're seeing it in different view points -__________________________-
regarding 1/ and 2/ if you're going to use WoW as an example of competitive play, look at the facts:
1/ WoW arena had not been balanced since around November 2009, none of the later patches did anything significant to the classes, (that awful Ring of Valor map where spellcasters just mow down everyone cause it's an open map is still used in competitive play) and 2/ Cataclysm/4.0 has broken arena (or the balance of it I assume) to the point where MLG has pulled it out of MLG Dallas -> it's in the post where MLG talks about keeping SC2 in their tournaments /3 MLG is the only tournament supporting WoW outside of Blizzcon
^ That is Blizzard tournament running for you.
People are pissed off because:
1) They love their Proleague, KeSPA formed and organiszes the BW games, a structure that Blizzard had little part to play in after their last balance patch. You could say they made the game and deserve credit but 2) They made outrageous demands to KeSPA, demands that few would find acceptable in any way, while giving Gretech less demands -> clearly a shot at KeSPA (royalties have been turned down by Gretech/Blizzard) 3) Blizzard are stirring up trouble with KeSPA/OGN/MBC, if I were a player/involved in the BW scene I'd be concerned about its future -> possible jump ship 4) Voicing their concerns on IP rights since 2007 - could be because of KeSPA charging OGN/MBC - convenient for them to point that out. Or it could also be due to Blizzard merging with Activision and future plans of Starcraft II (announcement of development)
Easy enough to interpret their actions -> killing off BW to guide SC2's success, it's so sad that they're doing this to one of their games, and the most successful one at that.
In the middle that is that IP rights must be protected
Also, Blizzard has no plan to get any monetary gains through the IP rights negotiation process. Didn't you see in Gretech's announcement, that all monetary gains will be donated to charities?
WTF Blizzard causing a big scene about.
They walk into the proscene, take a big giant shit over the sc1 scene, wipe their asses and flush it all down the toilet. Giant Cacks.