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Lets try to do a unbiased review (and my first ever attempt) of last night's match-up:
CJ's coach was smart in sending their key players early in the games. They got Set no.1, which set the mood for the whole team in the beginning. And by constantly sending out key players, they kept pressuring SKT1, despite their strategy of sniping down CJ with MU advantage. If they keep this up in Day 2, they will surely move on to the next round. However, that's given that the key players take the wins against SKT1. Movie definitely failed against Best (you never try to outmacro best... unless you're flash), and Iris almost had the game (he matched toss's expansion number pretty quickly, but he never expanded after his 3rd). If these two players step-up, CJ will be unstoppable in Day 2.
SKT1 needs to re-evaluate their strategy. They sent out SoO and S2 out of their ass, hoping to catch CJ with MU advantage. Guess what? That didn't work. Hyuk came with a specialized build that was supposed to catch hydra. Guess what? That didn't work (Especially doesn't help if hydra scouts it fast). It seems like SKT1 prepared a lot, in terms of BO (look at Hyuk). However, this won't work. Either those BOs need to be more aggressive, or the players need to start playing at S-class level, especially the zergs. Oh, and not relying on 3 key players till the end to drag the game to ace match... that also helps. Pressure does not help, especially with the ace players.
Overall (and prediction):
CJ needs to keep up with what they're doing, with the exception of Movie. Iris's mistake was taking the expansions late, and that can be fixed by focusing a little more. Sure, he got completely wrecked by Bisu at the end, but before that, Iris was playing well. However, Bisu fought very well and also blocked double expansion attempt by Iris.
Movie, on the other hand, showed us that he's a fluke once again. Now I'm starting to doubt myself if it was Movie that actually made it to OSL finals and actually won a match against Flash in set 3. Sure, there was the BO advantage by Best, but Movie tried to out-macro Best. Seriously, no offense, but why would you do this? Best is known to Koreans as Do-Mul-Yang (mulyang meaning quantity), and you try to out-macro him. Please reconsider next time.
SKT1 needs a different strategy, or they are done for. Set 1, in my opinion, was a great match between SoO and snow. The problem was, SoO did not harass snow. To me, it felt like that toss's role and zerg's role switched up; toss's doom drop of zealots while zerg's macro style to push away the toss's force. Why?
(Not an expert on ZvZ, not commentating on s2)
Hyuk, if you know that your spore colony is almost dead, it might be a good idea to make ADDITIONAL spore. Great build, but scouted by Hydra. Sunken goes up, Hyuk breaks it down, but alas it is too late. Hydra saw what you're doing. You prepared well Hyuk, but if your opponent sees what's going on, it won't help.
(Did not watch TvT for good reasons, but I heard that SkyHigh's wraith killed Fantasy's dropships which cost the game. Am I right or not?)
Predictions? I don't know what SKT1 will do today, so I still say its either way. Although, it is slightly more favorable by CJ to win Day 2: They have the psychological advantage because they won Day 1.
Agree? Disagree? Let the discussion continue.
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you didn't watch the TvT? That was the game of the night -_-
I think Skyhigh won the series morally with his play there. Looking at the minimap it looked like he was always one base down (though I don't know Fortress very well so I could be wrong), but he played amazingly with his limited resources. if SKT can't win with Fantasy, and if Bisu plays like he did last night (even though he won, Iris just threw his army away), CJ's going to take the second set easily
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Iris took expansions late? Really? 1rax CC into a reasonably quick 3rd off 2-3 facts isnt expanding fast enough? He lost because his army positioning was bad (see last attack, tanks in front of his vultures, and earlier sieging on top of mines) and bisu set up some pretty good flanks/surrounds. The two of them were on even bases for awhile, bisu just had far better army control and was able to safely expand after that, whereas iris constantly had to replace his dead army.
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On July 18 2010 00:54 Sunyveil wrote:
you didn't watch the TvT? That was the game of the night -_-
I think Skyhigh won the series morally with his play there. Looking at the minimap it looked like he was always one base down (though I don't know Fortress very well so I could be wrong), but he played amazingly with his limited resources. if SKT can't win with Fantasy, and if Bisu plays like he did last night (even though he won, Iris just threw his army away), CJ's going to take the second set easily
I usually live translate the games, but I don't translate TvT for obvious reason. I had something to do before I went to sleep last night, so I did that during this time, due to possible Set 7 translations.
Given that, it is true that Fantasy needs to win a game no matter what. SKT zergs are not performing well (bad news for SKT... the reason why they succeeded in Round 5? Primarily the zergs), and that means at least the ace player needs a win. Bisu was okay last night. Sure, Iris's position was bad, but that didn't mean that he was going to win that fight near 6.
But then again, Bisu's PvT ain't great.
On July 18 2010 00:58 zerodahero wrote:
Iris took expansions late? Really? 1rax CC into a reasonably quick 3rd off 2-3 facts isnt expanding fast enough? He lost because his army positioning was bad (see last attack, tanks in front of his vultures, and earlier sieging on top of mines) and bisu set up some pretty good flanks/surrounds. The two of them were on even bases for awhile, bisu just had far better army control and was able to safely expand after that, whereas iris constantly had to replace his dead army.
I'm sorry, I think I stated Iris did well early in the game by matching Bisu's expansions.... oh wait I did. His 4th and 5th were late.
Iris definitely had long time to set-up his line at 7 and block the units there; instead, he decided to be slightly more aggressive by pushing out, realizing that Bisu was coming down, and that threw off Iris's tank line. It doesn't help with the fact that Iris stopped on those mines, so yea he did have to replace the dead units. But he surely had time before that to take one more expansion as needed. Later, Iris goes 'oh shit mined out', goes out to take 2 expansions, Bisu snipes them down with one zealot and one goon.
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On July 18 2010 00:58 zerodahero wrote:
Iris took expansions late? Really? 1rax CC into a reasonably quick 3rd off 2-3 facts isnt expanding fast enough? He lost because his army positioning was bad (see last attack, tanks in front of his vultures, and earlier sieging on top of mines) and bisu set up some pretty good flanks/surrounds. The two of them were on even bases for awhile, bisu just had far better army control and was able to safely expand after that, whereas iris constantly had to replace his dead army.
Yup
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What? Iris was expoing as fast as he could, on fighting spirit its pretty much impossible to get a 4th up before you are making pushes in some direction so you can cover it as shown perfectly in this game where Bisu shut down his 4th every time he tried to get one. Also Bisu delayed his 4th for a looong time in order to get those gazillion units/gateways he used to crush iris first push.
The TvT was basically Fantasy blowing away a huge lead by skimping on dropships reducing his mobility greatly (I don`t think he ever got more than 5-6max) + he never rebuilt his rax for the longest time when he lost it, so at one point in the game he had 4 bases with a 5th going up but only 4facs and this was during a time he had set skyhigh really behind by relentless drops killing of lots of scvs\supply depots etc but failed to really capitalize on it beside getting up expos (that he eventually started losing because he was at a unit deficit at times running 4facs vs 7ish for SkyHigh). Skyhigh did play really well to recover from the horrible start he had, but that was Fantasy`s game to lose.
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On July 18 2010 01:10 Oystein wrote:
What? Iris was expoing as fast as he could, on fighting spirit its pretty much impossible to get a 4th up before you are making pushes in some direction so you can cover it as shown perfectly in this game where Bisu shut down his 4th every time he tried to get one. Also Bisu delayed his 4th for a looong time in order to get those gazillion units/gateways he used to crush iris first push.
The TvT was basically Fantasy blowing away a huge lead by skimping on dropships reducing his mobility greatly (I don`t think he ever got more than 5-6max) + he never rebuilt his rax for the longest time when he lost it, so at one point in the game he had 4 bases with a 5th going up but only 4facs and this was during a time he had set skyhigh really behind by relentless drops killing of lots of scvs\supply depots etc but failed to really capitalize on it beside getting up expos (that he eventually started losing because he was at a unit deficit at times running 4facs vs 7ish for SkyHigh). Skyhigh did play really well to recover from the horrible start he had, but that was Fantasy`s game to lose.
I think people are misunderstanding my words with the early game; I think I mentioned that Iris did a good job by matching Bisu's expos early game, but lacked later on. =/
And thanks for the TvT. I only saw the ending to the match where it was 7~8 dropships vs 1~3
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On July 18 2010 01:13 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 01:10 Oystein wrote:
What? Iris was expoing as fast as he could, on fighting spirit its pretty much impossible to get a 4th up before you are making pushes in some direction so you can cover it as shown perfectly in this game where Bisu shut down his 4th every time he tried to get one. Also Bisu delayed his 4th for a looong time in order to get those gazillion units/gateways he used to crush iris first push.
The TvT was basically Fantasy blowing away a huge lead by skimping on dropships reducing his mobility greatly (I don`t think he ever got more than 5-6max) + he never rebuilt his rax for the longest time when he lost it, so at one point in the game he had 4 bases with a 5th going up but only 4facs and this was during a time he had set skyhigh really behind by relentless drops killing of lots of scvs\supply depots etc but failed to really capitalize on it beside getting up expos (that he eventually started losing because he was at a unit deficit at times running 4facs vs 7ish for SkyHigh). Skyhigh did play really well to recover from the horrible start he had, but that was Fantasy`s game to lose. I think people are misunderstanding my words with the early game; I think I mentioned that Iris did a good job by matching Bisu's expos early game, but lacked later on. =/ And thanks for the TvT. I only saw the ending to the match where it was 7~8 dropships vs 1~3
Yeah, well the point is you can`t get a 4th without having a serious presence in the center of the map or he needed to take that 3 expo while pushing north. Iris did the standard 4th timing just as he was starting to push out, but Bisu was constantly clearing mines on the left side of the map making it pretty much impossible for Iris to get that 4th up uncontested. This forced Iris\Bisu baited him to move his entire force toward the left side of the map,instead of pushing upwards toward Bisus main, where Bisu was able to crush his push with superior numbers of units. (He didnt even minedrag alot, he simply had to much units) and good positioning on his attack arc. Once Iris lost that force there is no way he can get up a 4th until he once again got enough units to push out, hell he barely held onto his 3rd as it was.
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I think Hyuk should have played standard, Hydra is considered worse than him so there is no reason to cheese or use special/all-in builds.
I think he practiced this build to snipe Effort, but when your opponent changes you should change your strategy as well.
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Hungary11291 Posts
I respectfully disagree with almost your entire analysis.
Getting soo to play against Snow in set 1 was most likely intended by SK and might have worked out, had not Snow played absolutely amazing. CJ's manager admitted that: While SK Telecom had successfully sniped us in the first set, Snow played really well despite that..
Hyuk's problem was not the build. It was 6 zerglings going into his main unscouted, which forced him to cancel his Lair and change his plan. Hydra notes that: I think he was forced into [the 3 hatch all-in]. From what I can tell, his original build was 2 hatcheries in his main. I started off with the advantage in the build order battle
S2 tried to take out Effort with a chance build, i.e. a 9-pool if I remember correctly. Effort didn't fall for it but defended calmly and rode his advantage to victory. Sure, S2 tried to win by luck, but what would you do against Effort?
Before sets 4-6, SK was in a brilliant position. Three key players had been sent out for CJ and they only needed 2 of their Aces to score in order to force at least the acematch. They failed at that, which was also due to CJ getting favorable matchups, which is good seeding on their part (Imagine Skyhigh vs. Bisu and Iris vs. Fantasy; that would have been a huge problem for them).
So I'd rate the overall strategic setup quite highly, but the players didn't deliver when needed, which had little to do with what BO they chose. CJ just had the better man on the field in most cases.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
A bit of luck from Hydra, some fantastic play from Skyhigh and Snow, and Effort playing as solid as ever. Pretty good recipe for CJ success.
SKT has a good shot at winning. Their zergs just need to start playing a little better. Hyuk might have gotten a little bit unlucky, but in the end, full credit to Hydra who defended well against 3 hatch all in lings.
As I've said before, they're gonna need a zerg or two to step up if they're gonna realistically have any shot at winning. Bisu, Best, and Fantasy can only carry you so far.
While I hate TvT, I have to say that Skyhigh's TvT vs Fantasy last night was absolutely incredible. Probably the best game of the entire match with intense back and forth action and Skyhigh somehow managing to pull out a victory down a base or two.
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On July 18 2010 02:14 Aesop wrote:
Hyuk's problem was not the build. It was 6 zerglings going into his main unscouted, which forced him to cancel his Lair and change his plan. Hydra notes that: I think he was forced into [the 3 hatch all-in]. From what I can tell, his original build was 2 hatcheries in his main. I started off with the advantage in the build order battle
So he did cancel the Lair. I was translating at that moment, and suddenly the commentators changed their subject to Hyuk's Lair status. I thought I heard the word cancel, but I wasn't too sure
On July 18 2010 02:14 Aesop wrote:
I respectfully disagree with almost your entire analysis.
And thanks for your criticism. I want to become better at analyzing games, but that never comes without practice.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 18 2010 01:10 Oystein wrote:
What? Iris was expoing as fast as he could, on fighting spirit its pretty much impossible to get a 4th up before you are making pushes in some direction so you can cover it as shown perfectly in this game where Bisu shut down his 4th every time he tried to get one. Also Bisu delayed his 4th for a looong time in order to get those gazillion units/gateways he used to crush iris first push.
The TvT was basically Fantasy blowing away a huge lead by skimping on dropships reducing his mobility greatly (I don`t think he ever got more than 5-6max) + he never rebuilt his rax for the longest time when he lost it, so at one point in the game he had 4 bases with a 5th going up but only 4facs and this was during a time he had set skyhigh really behind by relentless drops killing of lots of scvs\supply depots etc but failed to really capitalize on it beside getting up expos (that he eventually started losing because he was at a unit deficit at times running 4facs vs 7ish for SkyHigh). Skyhigh did play really well to recover from the horrible start he had, but that was Fantasy`s game to lose.
Shame on the OP for not watching the TvT between two of the best in the game at that match-up. Watch it now on VOD! I'll say it again, one of the best TvT's in recent memory. I'll have to watch the game again Oystein, I don't think fantasy lost because (as someone suggested) he didn't build enough dropships, instead, he split them up so you never saw the whole flock at once. But if what you say about the factories is right, then that explains a good deal. I don't think fanta was as cost efficient in several spots as he needed to be, but if when he double expanded, then took his fifth, he must have been saving on factories. This eventually allowed sKyHigh to outmuscle him in the late game.
I think Bisu won the opening builds in his game. Iris went barracks expand, and if he had followed that up with a timing push, I think he would've crushed Bisu. But instead his plan was to expand again, while Bisu had immediately taken his third. So Bisu's third ended up being faster, and this allowed him to overmatch Iris in army size once Iris was forced to move out on FS.
Also, the tale of the line-up tape went something like this: SKT won the opening sets, sniping Snow, crushing Movie, and getting EffOrt to play a ZvZ. But as people said in the thread, there were several remaining permutations with three players each, it was essentially rock/paper/scissors at that point, and CJ won them all. Iris v. Bisu, Hydra v. Hyuk, sKyHigh v. fantasy.
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I think Iris was outclassed all game long. Sucks, cause I was rooting for him. I wasn't watching too closely to that one, though.
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On July 18 2010 02:50 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
I think Iris was outclassed all game long. Sucks, cause I was rooting for him. I wasn't watching too closely to that one, though.
More like Iris made one game-changing mistake. Very hard to claw back up from that, and Iris tried valiantly.
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that TvT was wierd
I was like, blluaaahh w/e Fanta has this Skyhigh is done, we just need 10-15 minutes to gve it up, as TvT is like that. Then checking back a couple minutes later skyhigh pushing out, fantasy has no units i'm like wtf. Then Fanta kills all skyhigh's units and drops his island expo. I'm like ok, nothing changed really. Then like 30 seconds later Skyhigh eliminates the drop, takes control over the center, drops Fanta's exp with a lot of units
I was like, wtf, since when do i suck this badly at analyzing BW?
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On July 18 2010 03:10 Geo.Rion wrote:
that TvT was wierd
I was like, blluaaahh w/e Fanta has this Skyhigh is done, we just need 10-15 minutes to gve it up, as TvT is like that. Then checking back a couple minutes later skyhigh pushing out, fantasy has no units i'm like wtf. Then Fanta kills all skyhigh's units and drops his island expo. I'm like ok, nothing changed really. Then like 30 seconds later Skyhigh eliminates the drop, takes control over the center, drops Fanta's exp with a lot of units
I was like, wtf, since when do i suck this badly at analyzing BW?
I haven't watched a TvT that exhilarating since Baby vs. Flash game 2 in Korean Air OSL. Every second counted and fantasy lost because he was just one second behind Skyhigh for a while.
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On July 18 2010 02:45 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 01:10 Oystein wrote:
What? Iris was expoing as fast as he could, on fighting spirit its pretty much impossible to get a 4th up before you are making pushes in some direction so you can cover it as shown perfectly in this game where Bisu shut down his 4th every time he tried to get one. Also Bisu delayed his 4th for a looong time in order to get those gazillion units/gateways he used to crush iris first push.
The TvT was basically Fantasy blowing away a huge lead by skimping on dropships reducing his mobility greatly (I don`t think he ever got more than 5-6max) + he never rebuilt his rax for the longest time when he lost it, so at one point in the game he had 4 bases with a 5th going up but only 4facs and this was during a time he had set skyhigh really behind by relentless drops killing of lots of scvs\supply depots etc but failed to really capitalize on it beside getting up expos (that he eventually started losing because he was at a unit deficit at times running 4facs vs 7ish for SkyHigh). Skyhigh did play really well to recover from the horrible start he had, but that was Fantasy`s game to lose. Shame on the OP for not watching the TvT between two of the best in the game at that match-up. Watch it now on VOD! I'll say it again, one of the best TvT's in recent memory. I'll have to watch the game again Oystein, I don't think fantasy lost because (as someone suggested) he didn't build enough dropships, instead, he split them up so you never saw the whole flock at once. But if what you say about the factories is right, then that explains a good deal. I don't think fanta was as cost efficient in several spots as he needed to be, but if when he double expanded, then took his fifth, he must have been saving on factories. This eventually allowed sKyHigh to outmuscle him in the late game. I think Bisu won the opening builds in his game. Iris went barracks expand, and if he had followed that up with a timing push, I think he would've crushed Bisu. But instead his plan was to expand again, while Bisu had immediately taken his third. So Bisu's third ended up being faster, and this allowed him to overmatch Iris in army size once Iris was forced to move out on FS. Also, the tale of the line-up tape went something like this: SKT won the opening sets, sniping Snow, crushing Movie, and getting EffOrt to play a ZvZ. But as people said in the thread, there were several remaining permutations with three players each, it was essentially rock/paper/scissors at that point, and CJ won them all. Iris v. Bisu, Hydra v. Hyuk, sKyHigh v. fantasy.
I usually don't watch the games that I don't translate!!! Sorry will watch now T.T
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SKT1 did well and probably had a decent edge before set 5. They got unlucky with the pairings, but even so they were favourites in both games (would have been huge favourites with two TvZ's). CJ played very well and got a little lucky too so I still think SK has a good shot at advancing.
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I'm gonna have to agree with Aesop here
On July 18 2010 00:48 supernovamaniac wrote:
SKT1 needs to re-evaluate their strategy. They sent out SoO and S2 out of their ass, hoping to catch CJ with MU advantage. Guess what? That didn't work. Hyuk came with a specialized build that was supposed to catch hydra. Guess what? That didn't work (Especially doesn't help if hydra scouts it fast). It seems like SKT1 prepared a lot, in terms of BO (look at Hyuk). However, this won't work. Either those BOs need to be more aggressive, or the players need to start playing at S-class level, especially the zergs. Oh, and not relying on 3 key players till the end to drag the game to ace match... that also helps. Pressure does not help, especially with the ace players.
S2 has actually been playing pretty well, he also beat JD recently so I guess they thought he would have a good shot against Effort or Movie by choosing to play him on HBR. Soo was definitely a ZvP snipe, they knew that Snow (maybe Skyhigh?) would be the most logical choice on Match Point so they tried to snipe him with a Zerg. That's the part that didn't work (Soo lost), not the part where sending SoO was supposed to give them an advantage.
As far as Hyuk vs. Hydra goes, Hyuk had a pretty big BO disadvantage (I didn't catch Hydra's build in the beginning but I'm guessing it was 9 or overpool) with 12 hatch in base. He was forced to cancel his Lair because of Hydra's early lings and so he was limited entirely to lings for the rest of the game and forced to go all-in with it. The canceling of the Lair certainly signifies that Hyuk didn't intend to use some "uber snipe build" to snipe Hydra.
Lastly as an ace player they are supposed to be able to handle the pressure  . Otherwise they wouldn't have lasted long as the team's ace (well I guess Zero... but shhh). The key thing was with SKT Zergs going 0-3, I definitely thought they would win at least one game with the way they've been playing recently, so going into the match SKT was definitely not "Bisu/Best/Fantasy drag to ace gogogo!"
And the whole Iris thing has been said a lot already. It's not that he didn't take expos quickly enough, it's that his first push got absolutely crushed due to control errors so he had no way to secure a fourth. Also, I'm not too sure why he decided to push out into the middle like that? Seems to me hugging the wall to go up to Bisu's nat would've made more sense.
I still love you though snm 
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EPT
