OnGameNet sent a message to Gretech saying that they are willing to negotiate.
OnGameNet, related to the Korean Air Starleague Season 2 that begins on the 11th, have revealed that they have decided to negotiate with Gretech.
OnGameNet has talked with KeSPA and have decided to negotiate to prevent the worst case scenario.
OnGameNet added that "This argument over IP rights of Starcraft has reached a worrying stage. We hope that this will be settled in a good direction for the growth of eSports."
Source:http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=107668&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= + Show Spoiler +
온게임넷, 그래텍에 협상 의사 전달 2010 년 06월 11일 09시 24분
그래텍과 협상하기로 내부 결정
온게임넷이 11일 시작되는 대한항공 스타리그 2010 시즌2 진행과 관련, 그래텍과 협상하기로 결정했다고 밝혔다.
현시점에서, 일각에서 우려하는 최악의 사태는 예방한다는 차원에서 협회와 논의 후 이번 시즌에 대해 이 같은 결정을 내리게 됐다고.
온게임넷 측은 “최근 스타크래프트 지재권 협상을 둘러싼 논란이 우려할 수준까지 이르렀다. e스포츠의 발전을 위해 빠른 시일 내에 논의가 좋은 방향으로 해결되기를 기대한다”고 덧붙였다.
제공=온게임넷
모바일로 보는 스타크래프트 1253+NATE/ⓝ/ez-i Enjoy e-Sports & http://www.fomos.kr 무단 전재 및 재배포 금지
I like they are being forced to negotiate, if they get to an agreement this will be a first step to better negotiations in the future including sc2 if koreans are ever interested in it.
I wonder whats going at kespa right now, they were supposed to be this unified force, now both TV stations has stepped out of that and negotiates individually.
I believe Kespa is going to talk to Gretech as well because it says "OnGameNet has talked with KeSPA and have decided to negotiate to prevent the worst case scenario." The have is plural so I'm guessing OnGameNet AND KeSPA will talk to Gretech. KeSPA has received a lot of hate, but we shouldn't give up on them.
well since nal_ra only has a week left before entering the military, there's no real hope for him to get far in the OSL's right? it such a sad and unlucky situation :'(
On June 11 2010 10:10 ZlaSHeR wrote: Once again showing everyone is willing to make this work except KeSPA
More like Blizzard is blackmailing all parties with the death of BW/esports and Kespa is the only one holding out. The thing is, even if they fold it's dead, don't even pretend Gretech/Blizz will be bothered coming up with a new webcast only proleague system. It'll be back to amateur everything... I wish Blizzard would invest in making foreign pro esports viable rather than trying to takeover/exploit the scene in korea.
It's still pretty depressing that this partnership with Gretech by Blizzard was essentially back room deal in order to undercut KeSPA, OGN, and MBC. Nobody seems innocent right now... which is probably the most saddening of this. People who are siding with one side or another because they are seen as a "good guy" seems foolish. For the most part it is pretty obvious that everybody is at fault some how, or has reasons that are not just "for the fans." While we fans might be the "pure ideal" that these groups seem to want to protect... the fact of the matter is that we fans are also being underhanded in our ideas of who deserves to "win" (if you can call it a victory). People who say "F*** Blizzard and their copyright law/DRM," well, they do have a right to do whatever the hell they want to their game. If you don't want to buy it, that's your responsibility to go through with that. As far as I know though, the original Starcraft didn't have any special things that say "you must sign an agreement to make a channel for this game," though any U.S. court would probably say, "they have had their rights abridged," even if this was the case. Also, for anybody who says that KeSPA has no rights or whatever... Blizzard didn't try to get involved with Korea's E-Sports scene until 2006/2007. They can't use the defense of "for the fans," when they didn't give a shit about the fans they had in Korea of a (by then) 6-8 year old game until after their merger (and years of World of Warcraft flooding their coffers mind you).
In any case, it's a mess... nobody is totally innocent (hell even I have a damn bias...). The only thing that matters is the end result.
On June 11 2010 10:10 ZlaSHeR wrote: Once again showing everyone is willing to make this work except KeSPA
More like Blizzard is blackmailing all parties with the death of BW/esports and Kespa is the only one holding out. The thing is, even if they fold it's dead, don't even pretend Gretech/Blizz will be bothered coming up with a new webcast only proleague system. It'll be back to amateur everything... I wish Blizzard would invest in making foreign pro esports viable rather than trying to takeover/exploit the scene in korea.
The news says OGN did speak with Kespa already and seems Kespa agreed to talk to Gretech. If they can come to an agreement not much will change for BW. Well besides that Blizzard/gretech have some influence on kespa of course but they don't stop broadcasting... What do you mean with back to amateur everything?
Dude, your analysis is pretty much completely wrong. Blizz tried to get in earlier then that. Even before that though, they were fixing the game. SC/BW was not an amazing game when it first came out.
On June 11 2010 10:01 White_Wolf wrote: I believe Kespa is going to talk to Gretech as well because it says "OnGameNet has talked with KeSPA and have decided to negotiate to prevent the worst case scenario." The have is plural so I'm guessing OnGameNet AND KeSPA will talk to Gretech. KeSPA has received a lot of hate, but we shouldn't give up on them.
What are you talking about. Have is obviously referring to OGN only.
On June 11 2010 10:01 White_Wolf wrote: I believe Kespa is going to talk to Gretech as well because it says "OnGameNet has talked with KeSPA and have decided to negotiate to prevent the worst case scenario." The have is plural so I'm guessing OnGameNet AND KeSPA will talk to Gretech. KeSPA has received a lot of hate, but we shouldn't give up on them.
You know that the news is directly translated by the OP right? So there can easily be grammatical errors and oversights. Probably shouldn't delve so much into syntax and semantics.
From previous articles we know Gretech/Blizzard have absurd demands and dont want to negotiate. Now that they are talking its basically OGN caving in and accepting some of the crap that they want. Either way, OSL is making a turn for the worse.
On June 11 2010 16:24 Emon_ wrote: From previous articles we know Gretech/Blizzard have absurd demands and dont want to negotiate. Now that they are talking its basically OGN caving in and accepting some of the crap that they want. Either way, OSL is making a turn for the worse.
Not really, if only OGN accepts they conditions, they can't be as bad as if KeSPA did.
Edit: I remember reading the following, but I can't find the source. If someone knows it, please post it. Or at least a clue to find the original post. I think it was worded in a different way. But maybe I'm so biassed that I read what I want to read :/
Remember that the worst rule (probably) was the one that said "We can cancel the contracts between the players and the teams and bring the player overseas to play the game we want in the league we want". That rule can only be enforced to KeSPA, not OGN or MBC since they don't manage the players.
and here is possible evil master plan by blizzard: if OGN and MBC make a deal with GOM and individual leagues are allowed to continue, while KESPA fails to do so (due to their stubborness and/ or irrational requests by GOM) and team league is forced to end.
without a team league there is no need to run pro bw teams, and individual players will then be easily lured away to play SC2. this is probably the only way they would ever get jaedong, flash, bisu...
yes, sc2 game is infinitely pathetic compared to bw but so is my fulltime job yet I still do it 9-5 every day because I get paid.
On June 11 2010 11:55 zrules wrote: It's still pretty depressing that this partnership with Gretech by Blizzard was essentially back room deal in order to undercut KeSPA, OGN, and MBC. Nobody seems innocent right now... which is probably the most saddening of this. People who are siding with one side or another because they are seen as a "good guy" seems foolish. For the most part it is pretty obvious that everybody is at fault some how, or has reasons that are not just "for the fans." While we fans might be the "pure ideal" that these groups seem to want to protect... the fact of the matter is that we fans are also being underhanded in our ideas of who deserves to "win" (if you can call it a victory). People who say "F*** Blizzard and their copyright law/DRM," well, they do have a right to do whatever the hell they want to their game. If you don't want to buy it, that's your responsibility to go through with that. As far as I know though, the original Starcraft didn't have any special things that say "you must sign an agreement to make a channel for this game," though any U.S. court would probably say, "they have had their rights abridged," even if this was the case. Also, for anybody who says that KeSPA has no rights or whatever... Blizzard didn't try to get involved with Korea's E-Sports scene until 2006/2007. They can't use the defense of "for the fans," when they didn't give a shit about the fans they had in Korea of a (by then) 6-8 year old game until after their merger (and years of World of Warcraft flooding their coffers mind you).
In any case, it's a mess... nobody is totally innocent (hell even I have a damn bias...). The only thing that matters is the end result.
I do have exactly the same opinion, this post should get copied to every one of those discussions (Blizz vs. Kespa). I would've just written 'qft' but I didn't wanna risk a temp ban.
anyways it was obvious from the beginning as soon as blizzard signed with Gom that this was going to happen. Kespa is up the creek without a paddle and OGN and MBC have no choice but too accept whatever Goms deal is.
On June 11 2010 20:41 voy[TECH] wrote: Hi. That's a good news indeed. You'd hope that this guys feel that they need to be more proactive if they want to make things right.
I know that's kind of out of the blue question and not sure if that deserves separate tread. BUT
On June 11 2010 20:41 voy[TECH] wrote: Hi. That's a good news indeed. You'd hope that this guys feel that they need to be more proactive if they want to make things right.
I know that's kind of out of the blue question and not sure if that deserves separate tread. BUT
Why was he banned for this?
On June 11 2010 09:33 Xiphos wrote: Cool story bro!
User was temp banned for this post.
And this one was not.
On June 11 2010 09:58 pash1k wrote: This is awesome! Thank you
Anyone?
The first is a meme, many times used in a sarcastic way. Google it.
The second says the news are awesome and thank you to the op for translating.
On June 11 2010 10:26 dtnmang wrote: At least they are doing this for the good of the mass.
No they don't. They're in for the money, as is every company. Sure it is good PR to mention the esports factor. It just goes to show how fragile commercial esports currently is.
This situation is far from being solved and even if OGN is willing to pick up negotiations, it doesn`t mean both partys will figure out acceptable conditions. But I don`t wanna paint it all black - it is a good signal to (re)start conversations.
On June 11 2010 10:10 ZlaSHeR wrote: Once again showing everyone is willing to make this work except KeSPA
Sorry to burst your bubble, but nothing will come out of this. GOM is the soundboard for Blizz and the fees will still be outrageous amongst other things, i.e. term of agreement valid 1 year. MBC and GOM got nothing done. It's the classic stalemate with a NDA attached to it. The best case scenario is arbitration. If this goes to the courts, it could drag out for months.
On June 11 2010 21:42 nttea wrote: pretty stupid that they have to get permission from fucking gretech to run a tournament imo -.- intellectual property is fucking bullshit.
I'm a betting man, so let me go out on a limb and guess that you have no intellectual property.
Would YOU trust KeSPA to do the negotiating for you? Obviously not, or this shit wouldn't get to this stage in the first place. So if MBC and OGN still want to run their tournaments, they clearly have to start negotiating themselves.
On June 11 2010 21:42 nttea wrote: pretty stupid that they have to get permission from fucking gretech to run a tournament imo -.- intellectual property is fucking bullshit.
Yes, it's terrible that people want to get their hard-earned money for working on intellectual property instead of getting it stolen.
On June 11 2010 10:10 ZlaSHeR wrote: Once again showing everyone is willing to make this work except KeSPA
Sorry to burst your bubble, but nothing will come out of this. GOM is the soundboard for Blizz and the fees will still be outrageous amongst other things, i.e. term of agreement valid 1 year. MBC and GOM got nothing done. It's the classic stalemate with a NDA attached to it. The best case scenario is arbitration. If this goes to the courts, it could drag out for months.
Just keep your pants on and watch that the individual leagues get further if not complete a deal in significantly less time and pain than KeSPA
On June 11 2010 16:24 Emon_ wrote: From previous articles we know Gretech/Blizzard have absurd demands and dont want to negotiate. Now that they are talking its basically OGN caving in and accepting some of the crap that they want. Either way, OSL is making a turn for the worse.
Not really, if only OGN accepts they conditions, they can't be as bad as if KeSPA did.
Remember that the worst rule (probably) was the one that said "We can cancel the contracts between the players and the teams and bring the player overseas to play the game we want in the league we want". That rule can only be enforced to KeSPA, not OGN or MBC since they don't manage the players.
Yup, pretty much. The question is will GOM's (aka proxy Blizzard's) demands include something like "if KeSPA does x, we will not allow you to air it anymore". If so, I really hope OGN and MBC don't go for it. I can see them trying something like that though, to turn them towards a non-KeSPA esport like SC2, assuming SC2 will actually succeeds as an esport, which is too early to know.
On June 11 2010 16:24 Emon_ wrote: From previous articles we know Gretech/Blizzard have absurd demands and dont want to negotiate. Now that they are talking its basically OGN caving in and accepting some of the crap that they want. Either way, OSL is making a turn for the worse.
Remember that the worst rule (probably) was the one that said "We can cancel the contracts between the players and the teams and bring the player overseas to play the game we want in the league we want". That rule can only be enforced to KeSPA, not OGN or MBC since they don't manage the players.
On June 11 2010 22:52 roronoe wrote: Would YOU trust KeSPA to do the negotiating for you? Obviously not, or this shit wouldn't get to this stage in the first place. So if MBC and OGN still want to run their tournaments, they clearly have to start negotiating themselves.
You know what? This reminds me of "Divide et Impera". Blizzard did their job well. :D
On June 11 2010 09:33 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: is anyone really surprised? if they didnt, and nal_ra makes it though then they'll be screwed beyond all belief. and ofc ra will make it through.
On June 11 2010 21:42 nttea wrote: pretty stupid that they have to get permission from fucking gretech to run a tournament imo -.- intellectual property is fucking bullshit.
Yes, it's terrible that people want to get their hard-earned money for working on intellectual property instead of getting it stolen.
Yeah... which is why Esports will never truly work out.
On June 11 2010 10:10 ZlaSHeR wrote: Once again showing everyone is willing to make this work except KeSPA
Sorry to burst your bubble, but nothing will come out of this. GOM is the soundboard for Blizz and the fees will still be outrageous amongst other things, i.e. term of agreement valid 1 year. MBC and GOM got nothing done. It's the classic stalemate with a NDA attached to it. The best case scenario is arbitration. If this goes to the courts, it could drag out for months.
Just keep your pants on and watch that the individual leagues get further if not complete a deal in significantly less time and pain than KeSPA
Put your money where your mouth is then. I'll bet you a grand that they don't broker a deal before the given deadline.
Man people seem to be making some pretty wild accusations with very little info to back them up, afaik unless people have seen documentation of the terms of the agreements that i don't know about.
As far as i can tell from the limited info available is that Blizz wants in on the action whether for monetary reasons ( which i doubt is the main reason, although always plays a part, since Blizz already has sooooo much money, how much more can they get from the Korean gaming economy, not trying to be mean but it is quite a bit less than the american or chinese market, WoW im looking at you) or for control reasons ( i think they want to play a significant part in the future of E-Sports not only in korea but in the world but the best place to start is in korea, how significant we don't know, again unless there is documentation about it, but its probably very significant) and they have wanted in on the action for a few years now while Kespa has denied Blizz's attempts but with Sc2 coming out soon Blizz decided to hell with it and stepped around Kespa and signed with Gretech.
In the end Blizz does legally own the IP rights to the game they made which does offer them a certain level of control/say in things related to there game, obviously what the level is both kespa and blizz disagreed greatly but Gretech didn't and signed the contract Kespa wouldn't, giving Blizz the leverage to force all the other relevant parties to negotiate with them and is allowing them to force their way into having some level of control over the starcraft esports.
Now as to which side is the "bad guy" i don't know until i see what the terms of the agreement Blizz wanted to force onto Kespa but i think both sides are being a little pigheaded. Personally i think Blizz(more as a supporting figure) Kespa and the players themselves(SC Progamers union!!!) should have relatively equal say in all things SC Esport related.
Again whether in the end this will be a bad thing or a good thing we don't know. Some positive things from this is that Blizz does have the money to throw at not only the korean starcraft esports scene but also the world and with the release of SC2 i think Blizz will be more inclined to do so. On the other side the BW scene could be choked out during the struggle but aslong as the fans are interested and the players want to play then even if the current leagues, which i think is unlikely, are shut down Gretech will be able to create new ones (Kespa did it from the ground up to say that Gretech won't be able to pick up from what Kespa already establish is silly, albeit it would most likely take a huge step back at first, i think it would quickly recover especially if Blizz throws some money at it) which then comes to the idea that Blizz for some reason wants Sc1 to fail so that sc2 can step in is again silly since they are essentially 2 sides of the same coin and don't have to be mutually exclusive to each other nor is Korea the only place that Sc2 can flourish and grow.
Wasn't there already a post on this? Edit: nvm that was MBC, Great news! eSports prevails on Korea's end with the exception of KeSPA (?) It's all up to blizzard to not fuck up.
On June 12 2010 04:01 TangJuice wrote: which i doubt is the main reason, although always plays a part, since Blizz already has sooooo much money
Yeah, "we have so much money already, we don't need any more". That's totally how shareholders reason.
if you read a little further i say from the korean gaming economy, yes they want money but how much can they get comparatively to their other markets around the world to that from korea even if they got 100% of the money kespa gets now. i can't imagine it'd be that much, again comparatively and therefore would be more worth wild spending the time and money on tapping into a different market or developing an already existing one, especially if it goes to court since litigation costs money, lots and lots of money.
On June 11 2010 16:24 Emon_ wrote: From previous articles we know Gretech/Blizzard have absurd demands and dont want to negotiate. Now that they are talking its basically OGN caving in and accepting some of the crap that they want. Either way, OSL is making a turn for the worse.
Remember that the worst rule (probably) was the one that said "We can cancel the contracts between the players and the teams and bring the player overseas to play the game we want in the league we want". That rule can only be enforced to KeSPA, not OGN or MBC since they don't manage the players.
is this true? wow
I thought, but I can't find the source now >_>
Maybe it was a mistranslation, and got corrected after? I'm pretty sure I read it from a reliable source. Or hopefully, it was written with other words and that's why I don't manage to find it.
Sorry, I'll edit my post to warn. If someone remembers reading something similar, please point it out. I think it was in a list of demands that KeSPA named.
I am always surprised that no one ever brings up Activision in this Blizzard-Kespa debate. Seems to me that Kolshit is trying to squeeze every penny out. Esports struggles to find sponsers sometimes and is only good for publicity, I honestly wonder how much money (read profit) can be in it.
On June 12 2010 04:01 TangJuice wrote: which i doubt is the main reason, although always plays a part, since Blizz already has sooooo much money
Yeah, "we have so much money already, we don't need any more". That's totally how shareholders reason.
if you read a little further i say from the korean gaming economy, yes they want money but how much can they get comparatively to their other markets around the world to that from korea even if they got 100% of the money kespa gets now. i can't imagine it'd be that much, again comparatively and therefore would be more worth wild spending the time and money on tapping into a different market or developing an already existing one, especially if it goes to court since litigation costs money, lots and lots of money.
Comparatively? They need minimal effort (re: time and money) to attempt to get money out of the already established Korean e-sports market. They don't need to develop anything. All they need is to have their lawyers write up agreements. It would only go to court if Blizzard wanted it to go to court, therefore their litigation costs are also pretty much nothing if they want it to be.
On June 11 2010 23:12 Stratos_speAr wrote: Yes, it's terrible that people want to get their hard-earned money for working on intellectual property instead of getting it stolen.
I think its fine for blizzard to want royalties, but putting in clauses about controlling players seems out of bounds.
Hopefully the final contract sees the light of day and we all can see whats what.
On June 12 2010 04:01 TangJuice wrote: which i doubt is the main reason, although always plays a part, since Blizz already has sooooo much money
Yeah, "we have so much money already, we don't need any more". That's totally how shareholders reason.
if you read a little further i say from the korean gaming economy, yes they want money but how much can they get comparatively to their other markets around the world to that from korea even if they got 100% of the money kespa gets now. i can't imagine it'd be that much, again comparatively and therefore would be more worth wild spending the time and money on tapping into a different market or developing an already existing one, especially if it goes to court since litigation costs money, lots and lots of money.
Comparatively? They need minimal effort (re: time and money) to attempt to get money out of the already established Korean e-sports market. They don't need to develop anything. All they need is to have their lawyers write up agreements. It would only go to court if Blizzard wanted it to go to court, therefore their litigation costs are also pretty much nothing if they want it to be.
Bah i agree with that, what i mean is that since they can't really get that much money siphoning off from the korean starcraft esports market currently compared to how much money they get from other revenue streams that it doesn't make much sense to me that siphoning off that money would be their primary reason and concern for kespa not recognizing their IP rights. Yes they want to get in on the action but hopefully more so that in the future as it develops and as they develop it they will already be in a position to reap the rewards not only from sc1 but sc2 as well and not only from korea but other places as well. Im pretty much trying to put a positive spin on Blizz's greed in that they arn't doing this just so they can sit back, tax and lord over the korean sc esports market but develop it. I could be very wrong and i might be fighting for a mute point but i think its just too early and i think we have to little info to say that Blizz is now an evil money sucking corporation bent on grabbing as much as they can from what they can like some people *seem* to be thinking.
I can't believe that anyone follows blizzards bullshit after this. Just think about it, instead of expanding esports they disrupt maybe the only truely successful eSports organization in the world. Instead of trying to make an organization in another country, lets just look straight to Korea and attempt to basically take control of their already vibrant scene. The bullshit is so crazy, like GOM bringing up the fans. Yes we care about the fans so much we are willing to potentially end the only successful BW leagues for... SC2.
People don't seem to understand, there is no huge amount of money in KeSPA, they are hanging on just by the corporate sponsors... if someone decides they need to pay more for some arbitrary reason (despite the games themselves giving free publicity) then the sponsors will NOT be there, hence = no real proteams anymore.
On June 12 2010 09:14 infinity2k9 wrote: I can't believe that anyone follows blizzards bullshit after this. Just think about it, instead of expanding esports they disrupt maybe the only truely successful eSports organization in the world. Instead of trying to make an organization in another country, lets just look straight to Korea and attempt to basically take control of their already vibrant scene. The bullshit is so crazy, like GOM bringing up the fans. Yes we care about the fans so much we are willing to potentially end the only successful BW leagues for... SC2.
People don't seem to understand, there is no huge amount of money in KeSPA, they are hanging on just by the corporate sponsors... if someone decides they need to pay more for some arbitrary reason (despite the games themselves giving free publicity) then the sponsors will NOT be there, hence = no real proteams anymore.
This whole post is a bit ignorant.
KeSPA never had intentions of "expanding" esports, whereas GOM is planning for worldwide leagues. How is Blizzard not working to expand it by partnering with GOM? (Keep in mind they also wasted 3 years trying to negotiate with the spoiled child known as KeSPA, the terms to which we've only heard from KeSPA so it's rather one sided.) GOM has the most popular media player in Korea, meaning it's on nearly every computer. If anyone can reach the fans it's them though GOM TV, which they even offered free to us English speakers for their last Starleague. If GOM wanted to end the BW leagues, they wouldn't be calling for negotiations to keep them open. (Though it's likely BW will die off as it would have anyway with the release of a new shiny toy for fans to oogle over.)
KeSPA may not make a lot of money as an organization, but the fact is, Sponsors sponsor for advertisement. That's their profit. Getting their name out there results in direct sales of their products. It's in their own interest to invest in esports and continue to do so the same way. There's obviously significant enough of a profit to pay for houses and players, so I really don't get why people think they need KeSPA to do this.
Edit: It seems like every thread about the issue turns into another KeSPA vs Blizzard argument. Honestly I'm super glad OGN is negotiating, it means the OSL can continue too! :D Not too sure why people who defend the BW scene are upset about that.
On June 12 2010 09:14 infinity2k9 wrote: I can't believe that anyone follows blizzards bullshit after this. Just think about it, instead of expanding esports they disrupt maybe the only truely successful eSports organization in the world. Instead of trying to make an organization in another country, lets just look straight to Korea and attempt to basically take control of their already vibrant scene. The bullshit is so crazy, like GOM bringing up the fans. Yes we care about the fans so much we are willing to potentially end the only successful BW leagues for... SC2.
People don't seem to understand, there is no huge amount of money in KeSPA, they are hanging on just by the corporate sponsors... if someone decides they need to pay more for some arbitrary reason (despite the games themselves giving free publicity) then the sponsors will NOT be there, hence = no real proteams anymore.
People don't seem to understand that KeSPA ARE the sponsors.
KeSPA does not make a profit. They are the front for the corporate sponsors, most likely KeSPA people are appointed by the sponsors. They exist only to make sure the sponsors make as much money as possible and their investment is protected in the long term (by controlling who where and when the proteams play).
They are not some organization that wants only to grow esports, scraping by on donations ... KeSPA dime IS sponsor dime. It's the same thing. It's really not complicated.
On June 12 2010 09:56 xBillehx wrote: This whole post is a bit ignorant.
Hey look, I can say the same thing here as well. Lets just move on.
On June 12 2010 09:56 xBillehx wrote: Keep in mind they also wasted 3 years trying to negotiate with the spoiled child known as KeSPA, the terms to which we've only heard from KeSPA so it's rather one sided.
Considering the terms we've heard, it didn't seem very spoiled to me. Blizzard's response to KeSPA releasing Blizzard's demands was to complain about breaking NDA on negotiations, they didn't deny any of the terms KeSPA stated.
On June 12 2010 09:56 xBillehx wrote: If GOM wanted to end the BW leagues, they wouldn't be calling for negotiations to keep them open. (Though it's likely BW will die off as it would have anyway with the release of a new shiny toy for fans to oogle over.)
Blizzard does want SC1 out of the way, since it poses a direct competition for their "new shiny toy". They can't, however outright stonewall it, as esports fans will hate them, so instead they are posing harsh terms so they can say "hey, we tried, no go". As for SC2 replacing SC1 in popularity, its certainly possible, but its too early to know if it will succeed yet, and things like mbs, smartcasting, automining, etc make it less impressive to a lot of fans that grew up on bw. Either way, whether or not sc2 can replace sc1 is a topic for another discussion.
On June 12 2010 09:56 xBillehx wrote: It's in their own interest to invest in esports and continue to do so the same way. There's obviously significant enough of a profit to pay for houses and players, so I really don't get why people think they need KeSPA to do this.
The only ones pulling direct payment from this are OGN and MBC who recieve revenues, and the proleauge/starleague sponsors. The individual teams (Hite, SK Telecom, KT, CJ, Samsung, etc) do not recieve direct payment, and it would impossible to judge whether or not it 'pays off'. They are recieving exposure, and good PR, which companies do see as worthwhile investments, if for no other reason than for their image.
The terms as they have been released however are not as reasonable as some argue (and this is certainly debatable), but things like Blizzard having the supreme authority to shut down a league, terminate player contracts, demand players play in international league over local korean leagues, or 1 year contracts (with no guarantees for the future should Blizzard decide to pull the plug) do not seem very reasonable. Essentially, these sponsors are the ones paying for the teams. The wages, staff, housing, food, computer equipment and uniforms. In addition (if Blizzard gets its way), they will be paying Blizzard as well. That part is reasonable. However, since they are footing the bill, they want to know that they will have the ability to make the calls on how their money is used. If the terms that Blizzard sets aren't favorable and the sponsors are no longer capable of having a final say on how their funds are utilized, they may just stop funding altogether. It's good that OGN is planning for a worst case scenario, but OGN signing with Blizzard is not the same as KeSPA signing with Blizzard. They are just leasing the rights to broadcast bw, the teams themselves (who form KeSPA) are not directly involved.
Negotiate is not the same as deal finalized. I dont think Acti-Blizzard is going to play nicer than before; if anything they will for sure play hard ball if OGN since the KeSPA deal went the way it did. I think the only way this works out is if Blizzard agrees to take only broadcast licensing fees.
[QUOTE]On June 12 2010 09:56 xBillehx wrote: If GOM wanted to end the BW leagues, they wouldn't be calling for negotiations to keep them open. (Though it's likely BW will die off as it would have anyway with the release of a new shiny toy for fans to oogle over.)[/QUOTE] Blizzard does want SC1 out of the way, since it poses a direct competition for their "new shiny toy". They can't, however outright stonewall it, as esports fans will hate them, so instead they are posing harsh terms so they can say "hey, we tried, no go". As for SC2 replacing SC1 in popularity, its certainly possible, but its too early to know if it will succeed yet, and things like mbs, smartcasting, automining, etc make it less impressive to a lot of fans that grew up on bw. Either way, whether or not sc2 can replace sc1 is a topic for another discussion.
Erroneous. You cant have competition with yourself. Blizzard, as we all know, created both games and therefore owns the rights to both. There will be a fan base for both games regardless of the happenings in Korea. The size of those fan bases is in large part dependent upon the negotiations yes. But the potential harm they could do to their company is far worse than the possibility that many/most of the BW players dont throw down their $59.99 (x3?) to buy SC2. Neither game will please everyone and thus the people that are turned off by one will most likely play the other instead (speaking within the RTS community mostly but some crossover is expected of course) There will be more than enough hype as we have seen from the response to beta even though we, the community, have found many things to our dissatisfaction. From a business standpoint it would be folly to invest ANY resources into the removal or even the decline of BW popularity and the corresponding starleagues purely with the intent to get people to buy "their shiny new toy" as u put it. The bad publicity alone would hurt business. They have the opportunity to grow and profit from them and that is what the issue is really about. Blizzard is not making the money they should be from the starleagues coupled with the fact that priorities of KeSPA do not serve the overarching business model that blizzard has planned for their current and future games with respect to esports. Blizzard is a very smart and successful company to date, despite the fact that many of us (incorrectly) think them retards for some of the components of their new game and battle.net 2.0. Clearly the bottom line of Blizzard is all about money as with any successful business. Blizzard, while sometimes slow in response to wants, does give their customers what they want. You see it time and time in their games and patches. (especially WoW) In short, Blizzard (having far more money/power) in control, even indirectly, over the future of esports worldwide would be far better than KeSPA. Maybe in the years to come we will even see pro gamers being paid what they are worth... [written in sleepy haste - forgive any errors prz]
On June 12 2010 16:26 Fauxpaw wrote: Erroneous. You cant have competition with yourself.
Sure you can, if you realize that SC1 in korea isn't really Blizzard's (as a steady income source). SC1 is an entity in Korea. Financially its not bringing a big income to Blizzard at this point. Blizzard can either (a) try to tax it by charging broadcasters (which its trying to), or (b) try to kill it off, thus making sc2 the 'only' choice for korean esports to migrate towards. If you consider that, BW in korea such as it is atm is not really Blizzard's product (I'm not talking about IP here, I'm strictly talking from a financial standpoint). As such, they want to either take it over, or force it to be replaced by a product they can tax easily.
When you compare bw and sc2 on a pro level, bw is a much more entertaining game to watch (this has been covered to death in TL threads and blogs so I won't go into too much depth here). With the way that Blizzard is structuring the sc2 scene, they stand to make a lot of money from it by charging broadcasters, teams, etc (i.e. getting in on the ground floor of a potentially new esport and collecting all the money that trickles in). It essentially comes to Blizzard trying to strongarm KeSPA one way or the other. Either they pay up (which is less of an issue) and agree to all of its terms (which is the main sticking point), or Blizzard will attempt to ban them from BW entirely (which will likely go to the Korean courts again) so they can try to force the esports scene into SC2. Since Blizzard has no financial stake in BW in korea, they stand to lose nothing financially either way (except from a PR perspective, but they are losing that war regardless due to KeSPA's influence).
That "new shiny toy" quote btw was the one used by the individual I was replying to.
On June 12 2010 11:00 moopie wrote: Considering the terms we've heard, it didn't seem very spoiled to me. Blizzard's response to KeSPA releasing Blizzard's demands was to complain about breaking NDA on negotiations, they didn't deny any of the terms KeSPA stated.
So KeSPA breaks a NDA stating demands that GOM hasn't recieved (Btw most of them did seem reasonable) and you assume it's not just a ploy to save face? I won't deny that they're real demands, but I also won't deny that it's possible they're over exaggerated. Blizzard, being a professional company, didn't run to the media and fight back against the troll. Instead they ignored them and reassured the fans in a letter directly to the fans that counteract much of KeSPA's claims.
On June 12 2010 11:00 moopie wrote: Blizzard does want SC1 out of the way, since it poses a direct competition for their "new shiny toy". They can't, however outright stonewall it, as esports fans will hate them, so instead they are posing harsh terms so they can say "hey, we tried, no go". As for SC2 replacing SC1 in popularity, its certainly possible, but its too early to know if it will succeed yet, and things like mbs, smartcasting, automining, etc make it less impressive to a lot of fans that grew up on bw. Either way, whether or not sc2 can replace sc1 is a topic for another discussion.
You're in a position to know what Blizzard wants better than Blizzard itself? That's all mere speculation and conspiracy theories. It's in Blizzards own interest to keep BW alive as long as the fans want it, and they've done everything they could (while protecting their IP rights) to make sure BW tournaments continue. From what I see they're trying.
On June 12 2010 11:00 moopie wrote: The only ones pulling direct payment from this are OGN and MBC who recieve revenues, and the proleauge/starleague sponsors. The individual teams (Hite, SK Telecom, KT, CJ, Samsung, etc) do not recieve direct payment, and it would impossible to judge whether or not it 'pays off'. They are recieving exposure, and good PR, which companies do see as worthwhile investments, if for no other reason than for their image.
The individual teams do receive their homes, training, and whatever salaries they do get from the sponsors themselves, you say so later on in your post. These companies get their profit out of more people buying their products. Coca Cola, one of the very first sponsors of Starcraft before KeSPA even existed, made their sponsorship worth it by plugging their name out to people more. You say it's impossible to judge whether or not it "pays off" in the very same paragraph you state KeSPA isn't pulling in any real revenue. A bit counterproductive, but it's common sense that if KeSPA doesn't make a real profit, the only reason these teams still exist is because the exposure itself has been worth it all these years.
On June 12 2010 11:00 moopie wrote: The terms as they have been released however are not as reasonable as some argue (and this is certainly debatable), but things like Blizzard having the supreme authority to shut down a league, terminate player contracts, demand players play in international league over local korean leagues, or 1 year contracts (with no guarantees for the future should Blizzard decide to pull the plug) do not seem very reasonable.
I agree it doesn't seem very reasonable in the commoners eye, but do you think it's likely or even intelligent for Blizzard to do any of that? It's nonproductive to shut down leagues doing nothing wrong. That's not the case with the current ones as they're infringing on Blizzards IP rights, yet they're letting them finish off the leagues out of good faith. It's all to protect themselves and their reputation. Like someone posted in another thread, it'd be smart for Blizzard to be able to shut down any teams or leagues sponsored by XXXPron to protect the integrity of the game.
On June 12 2010 11:00 moopie wrote: Essentially, these sponsors are the ones paying for the teams. The wages, staff, housing, food, computer equipment and uniforms. In addition (if Blizzard gets its way), they will be paying Blizzard as well. That part is reasonable. However, since they are footing the bill, they want to know that they will have the ability to make the calls on how their money is used. If the terms that Blizzard sets aren't favorable and the sponsors are no longer capable of having a final say on how their funds are utilized, they may just stop funding altogether.
It's a bit unprecedented. Coca Cola, Doritos, etc have absolutely no control to make calls on how their money is used, so what makes these sponsors any special? It just seems like they want what they really shouldn't have, control. It's like a world ruled by companies rather than government. Not to mention if Blizzard/GOM's terms are unfavorable to sponsors, it'd be suicide to their own profit.
On June 12 2010 11:00 moopie wrote: It's good that OGN is planning for a worst case scenario, but OGN signing with Blizzard is not the same as KeSPA signing with Blizzard. They are just leasing the rights to broadcast bw, the teams themselves (who form KeSPA) are not directly involved.
Correct, it's a step in the right decision. OGN and MBC are negotiating already, so if they come to a conclusion it's more than likely that the KeSPA teams may follow. It's up to KeSPA whether or not they play, and who would be deriving the fans from entertainment if they say no? Not Blizzard/GOM.
On June 12 2010 17:50 xBillehx wrote: So KeSPA breaks a NDA stating demands that GOM hasn't recieved (Btw most of them did seem reasonable) and you assume it's not just a ploy to save face? I won't deny that they're real demands, but I also won't deny that it's possible they're over exaggerated. Blizzard, being a professional company, didn't run to the media and fight back against the troll. Instead they ignored them and reassured the fans in a letter directly to the fans that counteract much of KeSPA's claims.
The complaint was the KeSPA was listing Blizzard's demands to the public, which I'm fine with as it sheds light on why there was no progress in negotiations. And both sides are playing victim to the fanbase here, I have no delusions as to KeSPA's intent, but I also fully see Blizzard's for what it is. And yes, they are "possibly over exaggerated" but that's the point, it highlighted what Blizzard would have the power to do should they wish to. It's unlikely that they would cancel leagues or break player contracts, but them having final say in this was unacceptable.
On June 12 2010 17:50 xBillehx wrote: You're in a position to know what Blizzard wants better than Blizzard itself? That's all mere speculation and conspiracy theories. It's in Blizzards own interest to keep BW alive as long as the fans want it, and they've done everything they could (while protecting their IP rights) to make sure BW tournaments continue. From what I see they're trying.
This is a point we're not going to see eye-to-eye on. From following Blizzard's attitude towards esports for the past few years, I don't think they give a rats ass about bw one way or the other as far as an esport in Korea. Their concern is both a financial matter, and trying to kill KeSPA. Blizzard has never shown any desire to develop bw as an esport for the past decade. They are trying to take over a market that has built itself without their financial backing, because its win-win to them.
On June 12 2010 17:50 xBillehx wrote: The individual teams do receive their homes, training, and whatever salaries they do get from the sponsors themselves, you say so later on in your post. These companies get their profit out of more people buying their products. Coca Cola, one of the very first sponsors of Starcraft before KeSPA even existed, made their sponsorship worth it by plugging their name out to people more. You say it's impossible to judge whether or not it "pays off" in the very same paragraph you state KeSPA isn't pulling in any real revenue. A bit counterproductive, but it's common sense that if KeSPA doesn't make a real profit, the only reason these teams still exist is because the exposure itself has been worth it all these years.
I didn't state that they don't get anything out of this, I only stated you can't judge the dollar figures of just how sound of an investment it is. I did state that I don't think they are pulling in that much from 'additional sales' because of this, but its not about that, since its about PR, just direct returns (much like companies creating large charity funds). I didn't say that 'KeSPA' isn't pulling money from this.
On June 12 2010 17:50 xBillehx wrote: I agree it doesn't seem very reasonable in the commoners eye, but do you think it's likely or even intelligent for Blizzard to do any of that? It's nonproductive to shut down leagues doing nothing wrong. That's not the case with the current ones as they're infringing on Blizzards IP rights, yet they're letting them finish off the leagues out of good faith. It's all to protect themselves and their reputation. Like someone posted in another thread, it'd be smart for Blizzard to be able to shut down any teams or leagues sponsored by XXXPron to protect the integrity of the game.
Like I mentioned in the beginning of the post, this isn't about what's likely to happen, this is about these corporations not wanting to wave their right to have final decisions over their investment. Much like Blizzard isn't likely to kill a starleague, KeSPA isn't likely to have porn as their sponsor, that much should be obvious. If GOM decides they want to set up a league again, but KeSPA says "we already have proleauge 5 nights a week, and taxing schedules from the existing leagues" all of a sudden Blizzard can say "tough. all these players have to play". In the end, these corporations don't want to pour money into a product/investment if a 3rd party can pull the rug out from under as they please or dictate conduct to.
On June 12 2010 17:50 xBillehx wrote: It's a bit unprecedented. Coca Cola, Doritos, etc have absolutely no control to make calls on how their money is used, so what makes these sponsors any special? It just seems like they want what they really shouldn't have, control. It's like a world ruled by companies rather than government. Not to mention if Blizzard/GOM's terms are unfavorable to sponsors, it'd be suicide to their own profit.
If these sponsors are paying for the teams (players and managers), they are the ones who should have final say on the inner-team dynamics. If a player isn't performing well, it is up to them to fire him or deal with the problem, not for a 3rd party to step in and be able to overrule them as they are the ones footing the bill. As for Blizzard's demands being unreasonable, they have made a point to take a hard line with KeSPA, where neither side wants to blink first. I doubt that the monetary sums they are asking for are too unreasonable, but the rest of their demands are (at least in the eyes of KeSPA). At this point, neither side wishes to concede since this turned into a pissing contest and has been growing since '07.
On June 12 2010 17:50 xBillehx wrote: Correct, it's a step in the right decision. OGN and MBC are negotiating already, so if they come to a conclusion it's more than likely that the KeSPA teams may follow. It's up to KeSPA whether or not they play, and who would be deriving the fans from entertainment if they say no? Not Blizzard/GOM.
That conclusion isn't entirely correct. OGN and MBC are negotiating for themselves to simply be able to broadcast (should there be things to broadcast). The details of these negotiations exclude everything related to the teams themselves. As such, this is not necessarily a sign of things advancing on the Blizzard vs KeSPA issue. The same thing was true for GOM signing with Blizzard, as that agreement just meant that they are now the brokers for leasing future broadcasting rights for bw, but they don't actually have anything to do with bw progaming themselves these days. And a continued lack of negotiations between Blizzard and KeSPA doesn't necessarily mean the end of bw progaming, and KeSPA knows it. It's risky going to court over this, but its entirely possible the sponsors decided its better for them to risk potentially losing in court and thus not sponsoring these teams anymore than continuing to pay for the teams and not have full control over their investments.
Like I mentioned in the beginning of the post, this isn't about what's likely to happen, this is about these corporations not wanting to wave their right to have final decisions over their investment. Much like Blizzard isn't likely to kill a starleague, KeSPA isn't likely to have porn as their sponsor, that much should be obvious. If GOM decides they want to set up a league again, but KeSPA says "we already have proleauge 5 nights a week, and taxing schedules from the existing leagues" all of a sudden Blizzard can say "tough. all these players have to play". In the end, these corporations don't want to pour money into a product/investment if a 3rd party can pull the rug out from under as they please or dictate conduct to.
Even though I'm more on the blizzard side of things I understand that it's not a black and white issue, but iIf that was supposed to be your take on why the GOM tv starleague ended up not continuing then I find at least this point heavily naive or biased. Not to say that my take on it isn't biased itself, but making it sound like KeSPA shut down the GOM league because it was worried about the player's health is ridiculous. GOM got sponsored by blizzard in the hopes of them getting a foot in the korean E-sports door that way, and the league was in competition with the OSL and MSL, both run by KeSPA sponsors. I can think of a few less dreamy rainbow reasons for KeSPA shutting down GOM by force than "oh our players are so tired, we really want to give them a break". =P I personally don't like the fact that KeSPA has direct say of who does and does not get to play in what tournament. If some amateur wants to qualify for the OSL even though he's not on a pro team then let him try! And if a progamer wants to play in the GOM starleague because it happens to have the biggest prizepool of the leagues then power to him! I don't know if blizzard will start doing stupid crap with the amount of say they're going to have in the e-sports scene, but I can't imagine them being much more spartan than KeSPA is already.
I for one enjoy watching (good) foreign starcraft, even if we don't have giant corporations employ underage children to play the game for less than minimum wage. I have faith in gamers and the internets, even if KeSPA or blizzard pull stupid crap.
On June 12 2010 19:49 Feefee wrote: Not to say that my take on it isn't biased itself, but making it sound like KeSPA shut down the GOM league because it was worried about the player's health is ridiculous. GOM got sponsored by blizzard in the hopes of them getting a foot in the korean E-sports door that way, and the league was in competition with the OSL and MSL, both run by KeSPA sponsors. I can think of a few less dreamy rainbow reasons for KeSPA shutting down GOM by force than "oh our players are so tired, we really want to give them a break". =P
Of course that wasn't the reason, it was because of the power struggle that was brewing between Blizzard and KeSPA. Blizzard backed GOM, so KeSPA shunned them the following season. My example was more that any event that Blizzard/GOM decide they want to set up, they will have the power to dictate to the players, teams and sponsors, regardless of the players' existing schedule. Also, yes I realize this is an extreme case and isn't likely to happen, but its still a possibility that the sponsors don't want to deal with in the future.
On June 12 2010 19:49 Feefee wrote: I personally don't like the fact that KeSPA has direct say of who does and does not get to play in what tournament. If some amateur wants to qualify for the OSL even though he's not on a pro team then let him try!
How would that work? so now before the offline qualifiers (which are already ~130 players) there would be an internet tournament leading up to it? from a starleague perspective it makes little sense. As it is, broadcasting the prelims means you're not able to air most of the matches, because there are too many of them to fit. If you open it up to whoever, then it will start from tens of thousands of players. The result would be that those games wouldn't be seen anyway, and then in the end you'll end up with no-name players in the league, who don't bring in the fans and don't have sponsorship to help support the league. Don't get me wrong, internet leagues are one thing, but I don't see a need to water down a starleague like that in Korea, where the starleague format has worked so well for a decade now.
On June 12 2010 19:49 Feefee wrote: And if a progamer wants to play in the GOM starleague because it happens to have the biggest prizepool of the leagues then power to him! I don't know if blizzard will start doing stupid crap with the amount of say they're going to have in the e-sports scene, but I can't imagine them being much more spartan than KeSPA is already.
The first part I agree with, and it would have been nice if the players could have really chosen for themselves, as opposed to being limited by their contract with their teams. As for Blizzard and what they would do with their final say on things, nobody knows, but KeSPA doesn't want to find out and I don't blame them personally.
What I find hypocritical here is that if Blizzard wanted to set up a structure from the ground up, and dictate the rules from day 1, on teams, player management, sponsors and their rights, etc, nobody ever stopped them (and still isn't) anywhere in the world. Instead, they chose to try to take over the Korean scene which has developed independently, because they know they can make free money there without putting the effort to build anything from the start.
On June 12 2010 19:49 Feefee wrote: I for one enjoy watching (good) foreign starcraft, even if we don't have giant corporations employ underage children to play the game for less than minimum wage. I have faith in gamers and the internets, even if KeSPA or blizzard pull stupid crap.
That's where we differ I guess. I never much enjoyed the foreigner scene. Don't get me wrong, some of the players (like Sen and White-Ra for example) are very entertaining to watch, but the scene itself was too disorganized and random to really 'follow', it lacked management and structure which imo makes the Korean bw scene great. Again, this is only my opinion, and I'm sure most of TL would disagree with me on this which is perfectly fine.
the problem with OGN/MBC negotiating with Gretech is that neither the stations, nor Gretech/Blizzard represent the interests of the players. None of those parties will offer the players a salary, coach or a dedicated team of practice partners.
this development is bad news for the players, especially b-teams which will be the first to get wiped out
if KeSPA gets wiped out, SC will be back to the pre-boxer days where player income consists of tournament winnings and sponsor endorsements. only the top handful are going to be paid.
Yup and Bill, would you rather be making 60 bucks a pop (new release) or pebbles from a game over a decade old? If you think the latter then something is wrong with you. Blizzard ultimately wants SC2 to be the successor to Brood War. They'll make a lot more money off of it.
It sucks that the players are still going to get the short-end of the stick in any deal that materializes.
If OGN/MBC can obtain a broadcasting license they may use it to broadcast leagues organized by Kespa. Kespa owns player contracts, leagues and so on... OGN/MBC are broadcasting, but they have license. Blizzard may attack Kespa in the court but Kespa is not broadcasting so the IP law infringement is much harder to prove.
THe only reason blizz even supports esports is because they want to grow it into a position where they can reap the profits. If they can't get into that position then they won't bother with esports at all. But if they can, you can expect Blizzard to try and grow this developing market for their own sakes.
EPT
hopefully this succeeds
