EPTFlash remains the clear favorite against any scrub you could throw at him.
Flash's Last 20 games - Page 5
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
Flash remains the clear favorite against any scrub you could throw at him. | ||
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year. Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically. back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off. | ||
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J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
On April 18 2010 02:32 SoMuchBetter wrote: back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off. I really don't think this will happen. You need to remember that Flash is only 17. If Starcraft does last a few more years, Flash could still be on top and innovating. This is especially likely considering that Jaedong is still dominant at 20. | ||
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On April 18 2010 02:40 J1.au wrote: I really don't think this will happen. You need to remember that Flash is only 17. If Starcraft does last a few more years, Flash could still be on top and innovating. This is especially likely considering that Jaedong is still dominant at 20. why not, it happened to everyone else | ||
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FusionCutter
Canada974 Posts
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J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
They were older than Flash when they reached their peaks. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On April 17 2010 08:05 Azrael1111 wrote: Ya, people have been saying that iloveoovs run was better, but it really wasn't. A huge reason to why it was not better is that the competition back then was a joke compared to what it is now. | ||
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bao235
Norway97 Posts
But I don't understand why he's considered so much better than Oov. Oov is a macro-pioneer, and also has sick winrate. What's even more impressive is Oov's wins in the starleagues' finals. He has entered five finals and not lost a single one of them. Sick mental strength there. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year. Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically. I hate people who make these types of ignorant arguments; and coincidently, these come very often from people who never lived through the various eras of progaming. When oov was raping shit left and right, his fellow progamers were "goooooood" too. The win percentage is in fact the *perfect* evaluation of a player's skill with respect to all the other gamers at that time. The fact that Flash has similar win-ratio as oov indicates that he is just as dominating as oov was, but not more. Ugh. More ignorant comments below: On April 18 2010 03:17 StarBrift wrote: A huge reason to why it was not better is that the competition back then was a joke compared to what it is now. Players were not able to compete against players from the future, and therefore, judging by today's elevated standards, players from the past were playing at a worse level. Competition between the players was very similar to today. During the time of oov's dominance, the SK Starcraft scene had already matured (there were teams, individual leagues and team leagues just like today). There were already plenty of advertisement, funding, and prizes such that entry to get into progaming was already very high. The overall competitiveness of Starcraft (due to supply and demand) is arguably worse, but in no way was it a "joke". | ||
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fly.stat
United States449 Posts
On April 18 2010 02:32 SoMuchBetter wrote: back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off. Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes. And honestly I DO believe that if there's someone in the future that has become the greatest player ever, skill wise, flash's streak WILL be less impressive. I have no idea how that wouldn't be the case. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On April 18 2010 04:43 FridgeToss wrote: Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes. It is all about relative skills. Let's assume two time frames: 1. current, c 2. past, p Let's assume flash's level of play is F_c, and oov's level of play was O_p Let's further assume that the average level of play is A_c, and A_p for current and past respectively. Given the win percentages, we deduce that (F_c - A_c) is very close to (O_p - A_p) ***. It doesn't matter if F_c > A_c >> O_p > A_p; in order to achieve dominance, you have to be that much better than the rest. The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages). + Show Spoiler [***] + I acknowledge that this is a really dumbed down (very wrong) analysis, but I suspect the results would be similar even if advance statistical methods are applied. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On April 18 2010 05:00 Cambium wrote: It is all about relative skills. Let's assume two time frames: 1. current, c 2. past, p Let's assume flash's level of play is F_c, and oov's level of play was O_p Let's further assume that the average level of play is A_c, and A_p for current and past respectively. Given the win percentages, we deduce that (F_c - A_c) is very close to (O_p - A_p) ***. It doesn't matter if F_c > A_c >> O_p > A_p; in order to achieve dominance, you have to be that much better than the rest. The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages). + Show Spoiler [***] + I acknowledge that this is a really dumbed down (very wrong) analysis, but I suspect the results would be similar even if advance statistical methods are applied. Couldn't you just say this :"The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages)." without making up those "variables" and calculating nothing =D? | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On April 18 2010 05:06 ProoM wrote: Couldn't you just say this :"The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages)." without making up those "variables" and calculating nothing =D? Yes, but I was really just trying to break things down as much as possible, because some people really have trouble understanding that simple argument. :D | ||
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Rkie
United States1278 Posts
On April 18 2010 05:00 Cambium wrote: oov's level of play was O_p lol oov was Op | ||
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
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Khenra
Netherlands885 Posts
Being the Flash fanboy that I am, I agree that Jaedong will probably beat Flash in a BO5. He showed this in the MSL finals. Even though those finals were a bit of a fluke, I think Jaedongs play was just better than Flash's at that point. However, Flash consistently beats everyone else in every match he plays. Jaedong has a bit of a sloppy record when it comes to his other games. That's why we can safely say that Flash is a better player than Jaedong, even though Jaedong might beat him in a BO5. | ||
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Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
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Beachac
United States278 Posts
On April 18 2010 05:46 Kyuukyuu wrote: I don't think anybody is saying Jaedong > Flash, but okay. rofl yeah | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On April 18 2010 02:56 Liquid_Turbo wrote: SC1 will die before Flash's dominance is over.. vouch. im sure flash will be remembered as the "end all broodwar player". the ultimate weapon. | ||
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