|
On April 18 2010 05:00 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 04:43 FridgeToss wrote:On April 18 2010 02:32 SoMuchBetter wrote:On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote:
How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically. back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off. Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes. It is all about relative skills. Let's assume two time frames: 1. current, c 2. past, p Let's assume flash's level of play is F_c, and oov's level of play was O_p Let's further assume that the average level of play is A_c, and A_p for current and past respectively. Given the win percentages, we deduce that (F_c - A_c) is very close to (O_p - A_p) ***. It doesn't matter if F_c > A_c >> O_p > A_p; in order to achieve dominance, you have to be that much better than the rest. The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages). + Show Spoiler [***] +
I acknowledge that this is a really dumbed down (very wrong) analysis, but I suspect the results would be similar even if advance statistical methods are applied.
Regardless of how close their relative skill levels may be, Flash's skill is much more impressive, and so are his opponents' skill levels. I do not see how this doesn't equate to his streak being much more impressive. It's like your giving the older players sympathy merit.
Example:
Federer's skill at tennis = 100
Nadal's skill = 95
My skill at tennis = 10
Opponent's skill = 5
What you're trying to say is that a five game streak: federer over nadal is just as impressive as a five game streak: me over another noob? The same difficulty, maybe, but as impressive? No. Federer has to play absolutely amazing tennis to beat Nadal. I could be neglecting the time difference in this argument, but honestly I don't think it really matters.
edit: I guess it makes sense that their streaks could be comparable with the time difference added in. Essentially, the evolution of the game didn't allow oov to be as good as Flash back then, even if he tried twice as hard. But like I said, it just doesn't matter to me. Old baseball records that were broken aren't as impressive to me as the new ones although the mounds used to be higher and the balls were like well rounded rocks. This is why Babe Ruth is a goddamn legend.
Of course if I'm understanding you wrong, let me know.
|
On April 20 2010 00:33 Zato-1 wrote:
If Flash wins both the upcoming OSL and MSL, I'll call him bonjwa.
Even Savior didn't need to win dual leagues to be a bonjwa.
|
On April 19 2010 23:08 KinosJourney2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 10:51 Hinanawi wrote:
People talk about the 'aura' of a dominant player, Flash has that right now.
Just look at the last OSL winner interviews (OSL R16 Day 6). Not once did the interviewers ask a single question about Flash to anyone, but all four of the players brought up and talked about Flash on their own. They know what's up. QFT Flash dominance is insane right now, people who face him knows what's gonna happen. The reason Jaedong beat Flash in the MSL was because Flash was busy practicing for the OSL. I bet if Flash concentrated on beating Jaedong he woulda won that. Im a bigger fan of Jaedong then Flash but really, you can't deny that Flash is a absolute beast right now. 90% Winrate vs Toss in the OP really proves it.
Jaedong beat Flash because he played better then Flash did, not busy practicing for the OSL or anything.
Saturday 27th Jan (I think), Jaedong faced Kal in the MSL Semi, so he'd have to practice for ZvP.
The next day, Flash faced Movie in the OSL.
So in the end, they had relatively even amounts of time to practice for the match.
Jaedong won because he had better preparation then Flash, not because Flash didn't concentrate on facing Jaedong.
|
On April 20 2010 01:09 NguN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 23:08 KinosJourney2 wrote:On April 18 2010 10:51 Hinanawi wrote:
People talk about the 'aura' of a dominant player, Flash has that right now.
Just look at the last OSL winner interviews (OSL R16 Day 6). Not once did the interviewers ask a single question about Flash to anyone, but all four of the players brought up and talked about Flash on their own. They know what's up. QFT Flash dominance is insane right now, people who face him knows what's gonna happen. The reason Jaedong beat Flash in the MSL was because Flash was busy practicing for the OSL. I bet if Flash concentrated on beating Jaedong he woulda won that. Im a bigger fan of Jaedong then Flash but really, you can't deny that Flash is a absolute beast right now. 90% Winrate vs Toss in the OP really proves it. Jaedong beat Flash because he played better then Flash did, not busy practicing for the OSL or anything. Saturday 27th Jan (I think), Jaedong faced Kal in the MSL Semi, so he'd have to practice for ZvP. The next day, Flash faced Movie in the OSL. So in the end, they had relatively even amounts of time to practice for the match. Jaedong won because he had better preparation then Flash, not because Flash didn't concentrate on facing Jaedong.
With a help of infamous PO though.
But I agree that Jaedong seemed to be better prepared having crafted some interesting builds. However, I would love to see what would happen if there was no problems with MBC's virtual studio...
|
Korea (South)3086 Posts
Jesus Christ, Flash is now officially 70%+ in all MU's.
|
3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
As Savior was to Oov...
Gawd tell me theres someone that can counter Flash 0.0
|
This is why I drafted the man for 12 points in FPL. If only it was winners league format this round he'd really be racking up the points.
|
On April 20 2010 03:15 3 Lions wrote:
As Savior was to Oov...
Gawd tell me theres someone that can counter Flash 0.0
it starts with M and ends with K, it's a unit and it belongs to zerg race.
|
Flash is out of this world!
And Jd is too 
|
On April 20 2010 04:01 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 03:15 3 Lions wrote:
As Savior was to Oov...
Gawd tell me theres someone that can counter Flash 0.0 it starts with M and ends with K, it's a unit and it belongs to zerg race.
I don't know of such unit!
|
im a bisu fan and i always wanted him to become the best, maybe also the next bonjwa. i believed in him until he dropped out of OSL (he will win MSL though). but now i know that he lost. he clearly lost against Flash.
think of every races best player. jaedong, probably stork. Flash is at least one class above them. its scary if you know your favorite player will play against him.
hoping for an epic bisu vs flash final when they call flash the next bonjwa, it would be time to kill the king again for bisu.
|
I think the MSL finals last season was a very symbolic series that in a way signified a shift of power. Jaedong was long considered the best player that year, and Flash was making tremendous strides to overcome him. It was obvious by the end of the season Flash had equaled Jaedong in terms of development and skill, if not already surpassed him. And pretty much everyone wanted to see if the banners on the throne of the king of starcraft would change from bugs to humans.
Whether Flash won or lost is not reflected in his play after the fact; he became the stronger player and is now the best starcraft player (I don't think anyone can deny that). It is unfortunated that the night that was supposed to be one of the best nights of starcraft ended up being the worst let-down EVER.
But clearly, Flash is reigning supreme, and we can only see how far he'll take his rule in this season, which very clearly might be the last season before sc2 comes out.
|
On April 20 2010 04:59 Fumi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 04:01 ProoM wrote:On April 20 2010 03:15 3 Lions wrote:
As Savior was to Oov...
Gawd tell me theres someone that can counter Flash 0.0 it starts with M and ends with K, it's a unit and it belongs to zerg race. I don't know of such unit!
Ah, mutalisk?
But mutalisk can't do shit against flash.
|
On April 18 2010 05:00 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 04:43 FridgeToss wrote:On April 18 2010 02:32 SoMuchBetter wrote:On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote:
How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically. back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off. Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes. It is all about relative skills. Let's assume two time frames: 1. current, c 2. past, p Let's assume flash's level of play is F_c, and oov's level of play was O_p Let's further assume that the average level of play is A_c, and A_p for current and past respectively. Given the win percentages, we deduce that (F_c - A_c) is very close to (O_p - A_p) ***. It doesn't matter if F_c > A_c >> O_p > A_p; in order to achieve dominance, you have to be that much better than the rest. The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages). + Show Spoiler [***] +
I acknowledge that this is a really dumbed down (very wrong) analysis, but I suspect the results would be similar even if advance statistical methods are applied.
I tried really hard to follow your logic but I just ended up think of Flash making a F_c twitch face and it went downhill from there.
|
Flash kinda feels like bonwja (not saying he is but it feels like) right now even tho I still think Jaedong would have a chance against Flash in a bo5 - since Jaedong's so good in preparing for matches like that.
Anyhow it's the way how flash wins and even loses his games. When Jaedong was winning left and right at his prime it always felt like he's totally playing on the edge and the game could go either way. Flash nowadays is just totally steamrolling everyone. When you watch him play you do it in awe and there is never the feeling he might lose. I haven't had that feeling since oov (maybe savior came close). And that's what a bonwja is for me, it's not about titles.
|
Flash's play since the nuking of Savior in the All-Star games has been something amazing. I hope Jaedong returns to form sometime soon. Partially due to them, and the fans, being cheated out of what should have been a drama and mistake free Bo5, but more so due to the fact Jaedong is the only person to prove they can stand up to, and defeat Flash. I liked watching both stomp through the league as much as the next person, but I like watching them be tested even more.
|
On April 20 2010 06:02 Keniji wrote:
Flash kinda feels like bonwja (not saying he is but it feels like) right now even tho I still think Jaedong would have a chance against Flash in a bo5 - since Jaedong's so good in preparing for matches like that.
Anyhow it's the way how flash wins and even loses his games. When Jaedong was winning left and right at his prime it always felt like he's totally playing on the edge and the game could go either way. Flash nowadays is just totally steamrolling everyone. When you watch him play you do it in awe and there is never the feeling he might lose. I haven't had that feeling since oov (maybe savior came close). And that's what a bonwja is for me, it's not about titles.
I totally agree Flash is totally dominating most of his opponents and making it look effortless.
|
On April 17 2010 08:29 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 08:26 TrickNi wrote:On April 17 2010 08:17 pevenariola wrote:
I remember when people said flah's tvp was his weakest line-up, but according to the statistics it was actually his strongest. lol Well TvZ used to be his strongest and now it's his weakest according to these statistics. So maybe he started practicing his TvP instead of his TvZ. Keep in mind 60% of the losses referred to there are vs Jaedong, including that final where one of the games was negatively affected by what had happened with the power outage and stuff... I don't think the stats really show his TvZ being weaker particularly. 75% winrate is still amazingly sick.
i lol'd when 60% of his losses come from jaedong! in tvz of course
|
is it safe to call flash bonjwa?
|
On April 20 2010 11:59 pevenariola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 08:29 Insane wrote:On April 17 2010 08:26 TrickNi wrote:On April 17 2010 08:17 pevenariola wrote:
I remember when people said flah's tvp was his weakest line-up, but according to the statistics it was actually his strongest. lol Well TvZ used to be his strongest and now it's his weakest according to these statistics. So maybe he started practicing his TvP instead of his TvZ. Keep in mind 60% of the losses referred to there are vs Jaedong, including that final where one of the games was negatively affected by what had happened with the power outage and stuff... I don't think the stats really show his TvZ being weaker particularly. 75% winrate is still amazingly sick. i lol'd when 60% of his losses come from jaedong! in tvz of course
And by 60% of losses he means 3 games :O That's just insane...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
