Quick and easy, if there were an MSL/OSL Finals, which mirror match-up would you like to see the most and which would you hate to see the most?
Poll: Which mirror match-up would you like to see the most? (Vote): PvP (Vote): TvT (Vote): ZvZ
Poll: Which mirror match-up would you hate to see the most? (Vote): PvP (Vote): TvT (Vote): ZvZ
The reason I'm doing this is because of all the arguments about mirror match-ups and which is the worst. I thought it'd be interesting to find out which MU is the least desirable for any MSL/OSL Final.
Personally, I'd hate to see ZvZ the most and I'd like to see PvP the most. Although, of course, any mirror match-up for any final would be a huge downer.
Just curious, does anyone actually really enjoy watching any mirror MUs?
Poll: Do you really like watching any mirror match-ups? (Vote): No. (Vote): Yes, PvP. (Vote): Yes, TvT. (Vote): Yes, ZvZ.
TvT is kinda lame when it turns out to be a bcgols vs wraithtank battle or a stalemate between two players with like 20 bcs each or something. ZvZ is the most exciting but can turn out lame if it's just a simple build order win and zerglings raping on drones.
1.best ZvZ super action packed, JvZs are extremely pleasant to watch, recent streak of ZvJs was not though. 2.worst PvP same stuff, sometimes with dt usage resulting in bo win, but unlike ZvZ there is little action and ling vs ling is better than zeal vs zeal and muta vs muta is better than goon vs goon. Thank god this mu at least has reavers and hts. 3.no thanks </3 ZvT or PvT instead please
TvT is by far the best mirror matchup imo, the games are much longer and the armies are way bigger plus there are more possibilities than the other two.
ZvZ I like the way ZvZ works due to it being such small things that dictate the course of battle but there still being some nice tricks you can do to come out on top even if they are rather small. I dont really like the BO game though, i find it really anoying, but its not that bad since alot of pros know how to deal with it.
PvP is just so boring imo, its almost always the same thing that happens and like only two different builds are used. I also dont really like protoss in general :D.
Hate TvT, especially if it drags on too long. Indifferent with PvP probably because I'm a protoss player. Like ZvZ the most because its short and painless, even if it is using the same units over and over and over again. ZvZ micro is a big plus.
PvP improved by a lot cus of the Bisu-Stork era and then later the 6 Dragon era. TvT also got much better when the early game tempo became much much faster. These 2 MUs got a lot of small innovations.
ZvZ did too, but it's still a 2-unit matchup and nonstandard plays are mostly nonexistent.
PvP is probably the most interesting to watch because you can do almost anything. You can 2 gate, 1 gate (obs, reaver, dt), FE, 3 gate all in, then you can do reaver or storm drops, so harass is kinda fun, and every unit can be used except for Scouts and Corsairs really...
TvT is a pushing/dropping game. I find when I play TvT it's boring and I can win based upon a fluke.
ZvZ is the race to see who can get mutas first, and in some cases, who can mass zerglings before the spire finishes more quickly to win. ZvZ just doesn't interest me.
Personally I hate all of the mirror matchups, being a toss gamer myself, but if I have to I will PvP or even ZvP, but never do I go out of my way to TvT or ZvZ (this goes the same for viewing)
On August 20 2009 21:22 Kong John wrote: TvT is by far the best mirror matchup imo, the games are much longer and the armies are way bigger plus there are more possibilities than the other two.
ZvZ I like the way ZvZ works due to it being such small things that dictate the course of battle but there still being some nice tricks you can do to come out on top even if they are rather small. I dont really like the BO game though, i find it really anoying, but its not that bad since alot of pros know how to deal with it.
PvP is just so boring imo, its almost always the same thing that happens and like only two different builds are used. I also dont really like protoss in general :D.
We have completely opposite views, but I will stand by my original point that there are more builds and action in PvP than in TvT...
Would watch any of them depending on players, though ZvZ less for the sake of watching the game and more because it's so short I might as well. PvP and TvT, given good players, I would be interested to actually see the match.
* Various forms of cheese are viable * Four main units (vultures / goliaths / tanks / wraiths) with many different tactical possibilities * Frantic dropship play, with bases and maxed out armies getting annihilated in seconds * BCs, ghosts and nukes in the in lategame
Also, drawn-out siege fests are pretty rare these days. At least at the highest level, the tempo of TvT more often resembles TvP, with at least one player being very aggressive.
PvP is a close second, though.
ZvZ is only fun when spectacular micro is involved (e.g. with Jaedong or Effort).
I like TvTs, but sometimes TvTs can get very drawn out and lame, especially when someone like Canata is playing. PvPs in general are much more stable when it comes to entertainment level. Much more action packed and variance I believe in builds.
I don't mind watching the occasional ZvZ game in Proleague, but for series I really hate it.
In TvT it really depends, it has more than its fair share of really boring games, i.e. if you take the average pro (and everything below) it will often be damn boring (with a few exceptions of course), but at the highest level it will often turn out really good. It also has so much more variance than ZvZ.
PvP is my favourite though, because even without the very best players it will often still be a decent game and top level PvP is just great.
I like zvz because it is not about one guy using a cute build and getting lucky. Watching somebody get mindraped is always fun... and watching the poor observer try to show all the battles at once is entertaining. Raw skillz ftw.
tvt is okay... if you have somebody like artosis explaining the different positioning/ builds... i dont know enough myself. oh and if game goes longer than 30 minutes than it is bad .
On August 20 2009 21:20 Magic84 wrote: 1.best ZvZ super action packed, JvZs are extremely pleasant to watch, recent streak of ZvJs was not though. 2.worst PvP same stuff, sometimes with dt usage resulting in bo win, but unlike ZvZ there is little action and ling vs ling is better than zeal vs zeal and muta vs muta is better than goon vs goon. Thank god this mu at least has reavers and hts. 3.no thanks </3 ZvT or PvT instead please
okay? there are rarely ever any purely zealot vs zealot and dragoon vs dragoon fights. they always fight in combination + reavers or HTs and even probes. any single unit composition fight is kinda boring and it happens the most in ZvZ.
i'd watch TvT with top players and PvP over TvZ anyday
plus did you watch the recent violet vs horang2 game? man that was good
no he probably means like luxury vs yarnc or yellow vs ggplay long zvz. like...long lol
by the way, what if you really like all mirror match ups =( theres no option for that, i do...
and even for those of you that do not like ZvZ, yarnc vs jaedong should be an amazing series. i personally couldnt single out two players with better mutalist micro than these two at the moment (luxury perhaps). and im so rooting for yarnc its not even funny. but nice poll i am quite surprised at the results
I really like to play and watch ZvZ. TvT can be fun to play but is usually boring to watch. PvP is just meh. Weirdly PvP 6v7 on hunters can be really fun, dont really know why, might be that is just hardcore micro and very basic actionpacked games.
ZvZs is the best aslong as it doesnt turn into a 10-15 minutes long muta+ling game. Hydras is always shmexy. TvTs is boring since no matter what BO im not interested (if its Boxer vs someone then ill watch it but maybe not enjoy it as much as a good TvZ or TvP). PvP is a little better then TvT but its still not super interesting
In my mind PvP is by far the best. And this isn't even bias as a protoss user. The matchup simply has the most variations, from early game to late game.
I used to like TvT, but now I hate it with a passion. Not even big names bring about interest. Early game TvT is pretty nice, but once you get into the mid-game, it always dissolves into the same god damn thing.
Regardless, ZvZ is by far the worst matchup for a Bo5.
Units one uses in: 1) TvT a) Frequently - Marines, Vultures, Tanks, Goliaths, Wraiths, Dropship b) From time to time- Battlecruisers, Vessels c) Very Rarerly - Valkiries, Ghosts and I even saw Firebats few times (landing barrack-killing scvs)
2) PvP a) Frequently- Zealots, Dragoons, Darks, Templars, Archons, Reaver, Shuttel, Observers b) From time to time - Arbiters (maybe we can put it in Frequently), Carriers c) Very Rarely - Dark Archon
3) ZvZ a) Frequently - Zerglings, Mutalisks, Scourges, Overlords (but we can as well exclude overlords since they are somehow just a thing that zerg have by default) b) From time to time - none c) Very Rarely&Never - The rest
I guess everyone will get my point, ZvZ although not particulary bad match up is the only heavy imbalanced one, meaning that starcraft is balnaced even in the mirror match ups- many units can come in handy. ZvZ is total imbalance in that sense
To me ZvZ has just some of the starcraft qualities, every other match up has them all.
ZvZ is the most repetitive probably, but at least they end quickly. TvT is just outrageously boring watching the tanks siege, unsiege, inch 2 pixels, siege, unsiege..... PvP is only exciting when u see reavers or dropship pop or a reaver destroy 20 probes.
I don't know what's up with the ZvZ hate. It's such a cool MU, and most ppl say it's boring because they dont bother to try to understand it. Most of'em hardly know 3 basic builds, and probably have no idea how to micro mutas lings and scurges againt each other. It's so intense, no F-ing gay cheese (95% at least is straight up) micro intesive unit heavy fast games. I only hate watching ZvZ when the better player goes 12 hatch and the lesser player goes 9 pool. The better player will eventually die, but will make the lesser player look bad by holding off longer than expected.
How is TvT better? That has his own beauties as well, but i personally dont like to watch the loser suffering for another 15 minutes befor GGing cuz he still can defend but he's pretty much dead. Or even 100 SCVs and 25 tanks on both sides, it might be intresting but i dont like it anymore(i LOVED TvT while i was watching the first VODs, but it gets really boring). Or 2 fleets of BCs roaming around the map for 10 minutes, than killing off the bases for another 10 minutes, than wondering around 10 more minutes, than making a 30 sec long battle to decide who the winner is. In ZvZ even if the game isnt good, it ends fairly quickly, and if it's long than it's epic. TvT is pretty much the only MU where draws occur regulary.
On August 20 2009 23:20 M2 wrote: Units one uses in: 1) TvT a) Frequently - Marines, Vultures, Tanks, Goliaths, Wraiths, Dropship b) From time to time- Battlecruisers, Vessels c) Very Rarerly - Valkiries, Ghosts and I even saw Firebats few times (landing barrack-killing scvs)
2) PvP a) Frequently- Zealots, Dragoons, Darks, Templars, Archons, Reaver, Shuttel, Observers b) From time to time - Arbiters (maybe we can put it in Frequently), Carriers c) Very Rarely - Dark Archon
3) ZvZ a) Frequently - Zerglings, Mutalisks, Scourges, Overlords (but we can as well exclude overlords since they are somehow just a thing that zerg have by default) b) From time to time - none c) Very Rarely&Never - The rest
I guess everyone will get my point, ZvZ although not particulary bad match up is the only heavy imbalanced one, meaning that starcraft is balnaced even in the mirror match ups- many units can come in handy. ZvZ is total imbalance in that sense
To me ZvZ has just some of the starcraft qualities, every other match up has them all.
Dark archons have been seeing more use in pvp recently, the rarest units are Scouts. Sairs are really never used.
On August 21 2009 02:47 Nevuk wrote:Dark archons have been seeing more use in pvp recently, the rarest units are Scouts. Sairs are really never used.
I guess those scouts you talk about are for countering carriers? If it turns out like that and the carrier-toss notices it, a few sairs are the obvious choice as they rape scouts. I've also seen sairs in pvp for hunting shuttles and scouting. Mostly on islandish maps though, which we don't see too frequently nowadays.
PvP (on somewhat normal maps) is plain boring. Always the same and always so slow. TvT has some great strategic play and I like that. ZvZ imo is the best mirror because of the high pace and the sick micro.
ZvZ is my favorite matchup to play but I don't often enjoy watching it. TvT is my second favorite matchup to watch after TvZ. PvP I generally hate but occasionally there are some good games.
PvP the best mirror , no doubt about that ZvZ the worst ... just because of fact that we are seeing only 2-3 units used nearly ALL THE TIME (well there are some ZvZ gems but theyre fucking insanely rare) i enjoy watching PvP with its variety of builds and cheeses , its just awesome !!!!!
TvT is the only mirror match I enjoy watching. Lots of room for tactics and you have to use the terrain more than in other match ups. Also the match up that is the most unique imo. The match up is very much shaped by the siege tanks mechanics.
Out of all matchup's (no mirror included), PvP is my favourite to watch.Might be becouse of my understanding of it, or just love for the protoss race ^_^ Hate to watch TvT, unless it has Fantasy/Flash/Leta in it.
PvP gives the most similar feeling to non-mirror matchups; I think this might me due to the similar engagement tactics and strategies. Also, PvP is not too short and repetitive or not too long and boring most of the times. Personally, I love cheeses in PvP with zealots, shield batteries, gateways cleverly hidden away etc.
TvT can be epic at times, but when watching VODs, I just skip to the epic parts. TvT is sometimes just too damned slow to bring about a consistently elevated level of excitement.
ZvZ is repetitive, but can be exciting when people start doing more creative builds/tactics/strategies; I remember a few months ago when all ZvZs were basically the same game with different players to me. It's still kind of repetitive right now, but recent innovation has definately made this matchup more enjoyable for me as a viewer.
On August 21 2009 09:28 Jaksiel wrote: ZvZ is awesome. It's funny that people hate the most micro-intensive matchup and yet claim to love micro-oriented players.
The micro that most people like to see isn't stuff like ling vs ling or muta vs muta.
EPT
.
.
