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[G] Investing (part 2)

Blogs > azndsh
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azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 02:17:15
November 20 2010 22:19 GMT
#1
I wasn't originally going to talk about this next, but I received some comments that I want to address now. Let's make this clear: I'm not going to recommend any companies for you to invest in.

Efficient Market Hypothesis
This is an interesting/controversial idea from academic finance that says, according to wiki, "financial markets are "informationally efficient". That is, one cannot consistently achieve returns in excess of average market returns on a risk-adjusted basis, given the information publicly available at the time the investment is made."


Let me rephrase that in a way that matters to you and me. I have no idea what the heck any company is worth. Neither do you. And here's the kicker -- it doesn't even matter. This is an extremely powerful line of thinking that you should always keep in mind when investing.

For today, we'll use the example of Bank of America (symbol = BAC) as our example to illustrate my points. It should be pretty familiar with anyone in the US, but any large company would make a good example. So let me ask you what Bank of America is worth right now?
- If you're so inclined, you could make a completely random guess, say, $100 billion. It'd be a pretty good answer.
- If you knew some basic finance analysis, you could look at how much money they make, how much money it costs to run the company, guess how much they'll make next year and the year after that, figure out the interest rate, use your nice little discounted cash flow valuation formula and tell me an answer. Not bad.
- If you were meticulous, you'd take into consideration changes in government regulations, the state of the economy, how their competitors are faring, what the CEO's plans for the company are, changes in interest rates, etc. Even better.
- Now if you were a professional, you'd assign some probabilities to every one of those things and maybe even come up with a probability distribution of the value of BAC over the next month or year. That would be pretty baller.


Here's another approach. BAC is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. (At the time of this writing, around $118 billion.) The stock is trading around $11.66-$11.67 at the close.

But wait, couldn't that price be completely wrong? If you're so sure it's higher, go buy some stock. I'll sell it to you for $11.67. If you're so sure it's lower, sell some stock. I'll buy it from you for $11.66. Now all I have to do is find one sucker who thinks it's higher and one sucker who's lower and I just made $0.01 by being the middleman. Without knowing a single thing about the company or what it's worth!

Okay, so I made a penny... what's the big deal? Well, on average, BAC trades 260 million shares a day. In case you didn't do the math, that's $1.3 million a day, or roughly $300 million a year. Of course, I'm making it sound a whole lot easier than it really is, but that's the basic idea. This guy who knows absolutely nothing about what the company is worth is making millions buying one cent lower and selling one cent higher. All of this with very little risk.


To belabor the point with another example, let's say you're 100% sure that the price of BAC should be $15. You've done a month of research on it in every way possible, and now you're ready to bet your life savings on it. Heck, you've borrowed money from all your friends and family and all their friends and family.

You've raised $5 million to bet that BAC is going up. Now, that's so much money that everyone who's selling it to you must be out of their minds right? You're ready to pay up to $15 for a share of BAC, and they're selling it to you for $11.67?! Your bet is so large that it should at least drive up the price of BAC right?

In reality, $5 million is probably going to move the price of BAC by one whole cent. You know why? Because there's someone out there willing to bet $5 million that BAC is worth less than $11.68. And what makes you think the guys out there betting against you don't have a team of professional analysts studying a company for 3 months and $10 billion of money to work with? People call this capitalism. Free markets. Supply and demand.


Think about that for a moment. How are you ever 100% sure about whether a stock is going to go up or down. Every time you buy stock, somebody has to be on the other side selling it to you. How are you 100% sure that you're right and they're wrong? What makes you think you're smarter than the guy on the other side? Until you can present a compelling argument on why you're better at pricing companies than the rest of the world, there's little reason to think you're right.

How does that apply to people like you and me who aren't professional analysts? It basically means that we really have no insights into whether BAC is above or below it's current price. Investing in individual companies is more or less a coin flip.

Being right is usually luck, not skill. Don't get me wrong, there are professionals out there who have a lot of skill at picking stocks, but there are also a lot of them who are really lucky. The real question is how to tell apart skill from luck?

*
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
November 21 2010 01:44 GMT
#2
The efficient market hypothesis hasn't really been found to hold strictly on any market, and absolutely doesn't hold on the less well-known exchanges, like Hong Kong's.
Like a G6
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
November 21 2010 02:20 GMT
#3
I'm not arguing whether it's true or not. I'm explaining how that concept applies to the average investor. Thanks for the feedback; I appreciate the fact that you've either taken a class or read a book somewhere.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3684 Posts
November 21 2010 03:40 GMT
#4
How is this a guide? What's your advice? Your conclusion seems to be that investing is all luck. Maybe advise on how to do valuation to find the actual worth of a stock, not just the current price.
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
November 21 2010 05:26 GMT
#5
my advice is, unless you're a professional, don't bother with valuation.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3684 Posts
November 21 2010 05:36 GMT
#6
On November 21 2010 14:26 azndsh wrote:
my advice is, unless you're a professional, don't bother with valuation.

So, is this an advocation of the greater fool theory? I think it's pretty risky to assume that someone is always going to be paying the price you bought it for or more. I think markets are efficient enough to revalue the stock eventually and you don't want to be on the losing end of that.
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
November 21 2010 05:53 GMT
#7
no, I'm suggesting that you don't even invest in individual stocks.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3684 Posts
November 21 2010 15:40 GMT
#8
On November 21 2010 14:53 azndsh wrote:
no, I'm suggesting that you don't even invest in individual stocks.

All right. I skimmed over your BAC example the first time and got the wrong impression. Looking forward to your next blog.
gen.Sun
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States539 Posts
November 21 2010 17:23 GMT
#9
Who's your teacher? This is not how shit works.
THE_DOMINATOR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States309 Posts
November 21 2010 18:03 GMT
#10
I am of the temple of the almighty bubble. Everything is a bubble. Buy low, sell high, sell before the crash. Diversify and don't invest in the long term.
DOMINATION
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
November 21 2010 19:28 GMT
#11
On November 22 2010 03:03 THE_DOMINATOR wrote:
I am of the temple of the almighty bubble. Everything is a bubble. Buy low, sell high, sell before the crash. Diversify and don't invest in the long term.


you are a bubble temple impostor
our true mantra is not "buy low sell high", that's amateur-ville
the real bubble templars follow "buy high, sell higher"
=)
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
November 21 2010 19:35 GMT
#12
On November 22 2010 02:23 gen.Sun wrote:
Who's your teacher? This is not how shit works.

care to explain to me which part is wrong?
TunaFishyMe
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada150 Posts
November 21 2010 20:19 GMT
#13
It is true that is very hard for someone to know when a stock is overvalued or undervalued but this doesn't mean you should not bother doing research before purchasing. Are you suggesting people just buy MF/ETF of sectors? Even then, you need to determine if the overall sector is overvalued or undervalued. How do you know if INDU or SPY is not over extended and should really be trading at 30% lower than what it is right now? When you buy INDU, you are essentially buying a small sample of the economy. Is it easier to determine if the economy is doing well or if a single company is doing well?

My personal belief is to trade charts. I don't care what company it is, I don't care what sector it is. I look at the charts and the charts tell me where to buy and where to sell.
geometryb
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States1249 Posts
November 21 2010 20:30 GMT
#14
On November 21 2010 14:53 azndsh wrote:
no, I'm suggesting that you don't even invest in individual stocks.


why would this theory apply to individual stocks, but not funds?
itzme_petey
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States1400 Posts
November 21 2010 22:22 GMT
#15
So if you dont invest in individual stocks.. How can you make money? Lord knows ETFs won't get you anywhere.
"Last night, I played a game.. as I recall it was a strategy game.. Peeked around and what did I see, a girl playing starcraft better than me.. and I jizzed in my pants.."
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
November 21 2010 22:33 GMT
#16
Index funds will consistently and reliably return market average growth, unless you pick some ridiculous index that "indexes" like 4 stocks in some tiny industry.
Like a G6
itzme_petey
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States1400 Posts
November 21 2010 22:41 GMT
#17
Right.. index funds return market performance less expense fees. Yet, the question still remains.. how can i make money? Like.. REAL money. At 10% annual return, SPY isnt going to make me rich.. Maybe this is the wrong thread to post in. Maybe we need a "trading" thread.
"Last night, I played a game.. as I recall it was a strategy game.. Peeked around and what did I see, a girl playing starcraft better than me.. and I jizzed in my pants.."
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 22:56:56
November 21 2010 22:56 GMT
#18
If you expect to make more than 10% return on any investment without getting obscenely lucky or massively outperforming the market, you've got something else coming.

[edit] and the fees on index funds are minuscule
Like a G6
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
November 21 2010 23:03 GMT
#19
On November 22 2010 07:41 itzme_petey wrote:
Right.. index funds return market performance less expense fees. Yet, the question still remains.. how can i make money? Like.. REAL money. At 10% annual return, SPY isnt going to make me rich.. Maybe this is the wrong thread to post in. Maybe we need a "trading" thread.

Very good point. This is an "investing" thread. Honestly, if you're looking for 10%+ annual return, you need to be taking on a whole different level of risk. I'll talk about it in an upcoming post.
TunaFishyMe
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada150 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 23:06:19
November 21 2010 23:05 GMT
#20
That's a very lazy way to look at the market. Trading is like anything. The person who has the most information wins. It takes time and skill to find a promising stock. It is not easy to make more than 10% on your investments but it is very possible and takes a lot of time and effort just like everything else.
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