On August 09 2009 11:16 Fr33t wrote: I really wouldn't say fantasy is on par with Jaedong in terms of raw talent. The only reason he has really been able to keep up have been the incredible strategies crafted by two previous bonjwas and even they weren't enough to win him the last OSL. Jaedong will come through.
I feel like this really doesn't give Fantasy enough credit. You have to realize that if it was all just about learning strategies from the Terran masters, Canata would have broken out 3 years ago. To paraphrase Fakesteve, "Jaedong is better, but Fantasy is smarter." While the trigger in Fantasy's success is certainly the aid of oov and Boxer, to say that a large portion of it isn't his own talent seems to oversimplify things. The ability to process 9 years of professional Starcraft experience is not an easy feat.
How is fantasy smarter? What decisions does he make in-game (TvZ, not TvP/TvT) that warrant this? I remember this video came up a while ago: When has fantasy made decisions like this? To be honest, I haven't watched very many games from fantasy. The only ones I can really remember were from his BO5 with Jaedong, but every single game he played was rehearsed and planned-out. Like he prepared everything out thoroughly beforehand and then hammered it out in practice. Sure, he doesn't play like a robot, but nothing he did struck me as "smart," either.
Honestly, when you watched that game originally, did you notice Flash's smart thinking?
If not, I doubt you would be able to notice the thinking behind Fantasy's plays.
...or any other gamer, for that matter? Then how can one be the judge for when a player plays "smart"?
The point I'm trying to make is that it seems that too many people are jumping on the fantasy-is-a-genius-because-he-does-so-many-innovative-builds-and-different-cheeses bandwagon rather than in-game decisions, when all of that is actually beforehand preparation and can just as well be attributed to the coaching staff. It's just from my point of view, though, so I can't really comment on his TvT/TvP.
On August 09 2009 12:40 Saracen wrote: ...or any other gamer, for that matter? Then how can one be the judge for when a player plays "smart"?
The point I'm trying to make is that it seems that too many people are jumping on the fantasy-is-a-genius-because-he-does-so-many-innovative-builds-and-different-cheeses bandwagon rather than in-game decisions, when all of that is actually beforehand preparation and can just as well be attributed to the coaching staff. It's just from my point of view, though, so I can't really comment on his TvT/TvP.
As I said, if it were just the coaching staff, then how come Canata wasn't making Starleague finals back when people thought he was next in line to uphold the T1 Terran dynasty? How come Mong hasn't become a staple backup player? There's more to being arguably the best Terran in the world right now than regurgitating cheese from past bonjwas, and given that Fantasy's mechanics are not nearly as solid as his closest competitors, I'm inclined to say that it has to do with other inherent abilities that he brings to the table. Yes he has 9 years of experienced Terrans backing him up, but that doesn't mean it's easy to absorb, analyze, and apply that sheer volume of information consistently across scores of televised matches. Furthermore, there had to be something about Fantasy that appealed to Boxer and Oov. Something made him more to them than just buying another A- or S-class Terran, because we know that SKT1 is not afraid of buying players when their lineup needs the boost.
Would Fantasy be as good as he is without oov or Boxer? Most certainly not. Would Leta, Skyhigh, or Flash do as well with mentors like Fantasy's? Maybe, maybe not. Does that diminish his achievements or change the fact that he's one of the best and most entertaining players currently active? Definitely not.
On August 09 2009 11:16 Fr33t wrote: I really wouldn't say fantasy is on par with Jaedong in terms of raw talent. The only reason he has really been able to keep up have been the incredible strategies crafted by two previous bonjwas and even they weren't enough to win him the last OSL. Jaedong will come through.
I feel like this really doesn't give Fantasy enough credit. You have to realize that if it was all just about learning strategies from the Terran masters, Canata would have broken out 3 years ago. To paraphrase Fakesteve, "Jaedong is better, but Fantasy is smarter." While the trigger in Fantasy's success is certainly the aid of oov and Boxer, to say that a large portion of it isn't his own talent seems to oversimplify things. The ability to process 9 years of professional Starcraft experience is not an easy feat.
How is fantasy smarter? What decisions does he make in-game (TvZ, not TvP/TvT) that warrant this? I remember this video came up a while ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6R7maYAAKk&eurl=http:// When has fantasy made decisions like this? To be honest, I haven't watched very many games from fantasy. The only ones I can really remember were from his BO5 with Jaedong, but every single game he played was rehearsed and planned-out. Like he prepared everything out thoroughly beforehand and then hammered it out in practice. Sure, he doesn't play like a robot, but nothing he did struck me as "smart," either.
Honestly, when you watched that game originally, did you notice Flash's smart thinking?
If not, I doubt you would be able to notice the thinking behind Fantasy's plays.
...or any other gamer, for that matter? Then how can one be the judge for when a player plays "smart"?
The point I'm trying to make is that it seems that too many people are jumping on the fantasy-is-a-genius-because-he-does-so-many-innovative-builds-and-different-cheeses bandwagon rather than in-game decisions, when all of that is actually beforehand preparation and can just as well be attributed to the coaching staff. It's just from my point of view, though, so I can't really comment on his TvT/TvP.
On August 09 2009 12:40 Saracen wrote: ...or any other gamer, for that matter? Then how can one be the judge for when a player plays "smart"?
The point I'm trying to make is that it seems that too many people are jumping on the fantasy-is-a-genius-because-he-does-so-many-innovative-builds-and-different-cheeses bandwagon rather than in-game decisions, when all of that is actually beforehand preparation and can just as well be attributed to the coaching staff. It's just from my point of view, though, so I can't really comment on his TvT/TvP.
As I said, if it were just the coaching staff, then how come Canata wasn't making Starleague finals back when people thought he was next in line to uphold the T1 Terran dynasty? How come Mong hasn't become a staple backup player? There's more to being arguably the best Terran in the world right now than regurgitating cheese from past bonjwas, and given that Fantasy's mechanics are not nearly as solid as his closest competitors, I'm inclined to say that it has to do with other inherent abilities that he brings to the table. Yes he has 9 years of experienced Terrans backing him up, but that doesn't mean it's easy to absorb, analyze, and apply that sheer volume of information consistently across scores of televised matches. Furthermore, there had to be something about Fantasy that appealed to Boxer and Oov. Something made him more to them than just buying another A- or S-class Terran, because we know that SKT1 is not afraid of buying players when their lineup needs the boost.
Would Fantasy be as good as he is without oov or Boxer? Most certainly not. Would Leta, Skyhigh, or Flash do as well with mentors like Fantasy's? Maybe, maybe not. Does that diminish his achievements or change the fact that he's one of the best and most entertaining players currently active? Definitely not.
Perhaps "smart" isn't the right word then? There's certainly something that's allowing Fantasy to carry out brilliant strategies.
On August 09 2009 13:06 BanZu wrote: Perhaps "smart" isn't the right word then? There's certainly something that's allowing Fantasy to carry out brilliant strategies.
I don't see why "smart" isn't appropriate. Intelligence is not just fast decision making, but also information processing and retention. Oov has said in past interviews how Fantasy is a very fast learner, and his continual improvement since he became a major figure in the Starcraft scene should be fair indication of his ability to retain what he learns.
On August 09 2009 13:06 BanZu wrote: Perhaps "smart" isn't the right word then? There's certainly something that's allowing Fantasy to carry out brilliant strategies.
I don't see why "smart" isn't appropriate. Intelligence is not just fast decision making, but also information processing and retention. Oov has said in past interviews how Fantasy is a very fast learner, and his continual improvement since he became a major figure in the Starcraft scene should be fair indication of his ability to retain what he learns.
Omg haha. This whole time I was stuck on "smart" referring to one's play rather than one's learning.
It's not like Fantasy's horrible. He's a good player, but his strategies are a vital part of his game. If he played straight up and used normal builds, he wouldn't have made 2 OSL finals. However, I don't see why this makes him a worse player. People are good at different things, and Fantasy's good at executing precision strategies.
whether or not boxer+oov created fantasy, the coaching that they provide is certainly more than any coaching jaedong is getting. i think OP is pretty accurate--this is an epic match.
EPT
