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PART ONE: SOPHIE'S WORLD
I'm currently reading "Sophie's World" by Jostein Gaarder. It was recommended to me by a friend who said it 'changed his life'. I don't know if it will change my life but so far, I'm half-way through it, it's been quite an interesting read!
The book is half a crash course on 3000 years of western philosophy and half a mystery novel. I've always been interested in philosophy but have always lacked the attention span for delving into primary sources. I tried reading 'A History of Western Philosophy' by Bertrand Russell and while it is very succinct and awfully witty at times, Mr. Russell is still a philosopher and I still found some of the material dry and difficult to understand. 'Sophie's World' somehow dumbs down philosophy even more so that even I, a lowly university graduate, can understand the ideas of our past great thinkers. The mystery novel is quite well-developed and is introduced in small doses to keep the philosophy from becoming overwhelming.
Anyways, I recommend this book for anyone interested in philosophy but who felt daunted by the monumental task that lay in actually broaching the field.
SECOND PART: EMO RANT...KINDA (You've been warned! Stop reading!!)
It's summertime, I don't have a care in the world, I'm going to a professional school in the Fall, my life is set, I should be happy... right? Alas, I'm a freak, someone who can't be content. This always happens to me when I have nothing to do. The long summer days seem to bring out the worst in my personality - namely, spending a long time thinking.
The thoughts always revolve around the same existential questions: Why am I here? What's the meaning of life? If I'm just going to die, why bother now? Yes, it's a complete cliche so please don't flame me for it! Actually, I think it's an often overlooked question - I'm certain a fair amount of people have these thoughts but rarely does anyone consider them worth seeking an answer for. I think it's important that we try to tackle these unanswerable questions at least for personal development.
Well, after some soul searching, I've basically arrived at my answer. Ahem, let me state my belief: Life is inherently meaningless. Another way of saying it is that existence itself has no point. If it did, boredom would not exist as we would be fulfilled by merely existing.
Well, this isn't really MY answer  I read 'On the Vanity of Existence' by Schopenhauer and found I really agree with that point!
http://www.stjohns-chs.org/general_studies/philosophy/Romantic/sch.html
So.. life is pointless. Woop-de-doo. Maybe I should just off myself now? While I'm sure a bunch of you still reading this - thanks btw! - would certainly wish that upon me by now, I haven't finished my post yet. Yes, life in itself is pointless. As an atheist, that's really just a normal fact. However, I don't find it logical to go from 'life is pointless' to 'kill yourself'. Instead, to me, it's more like 'life is pointless' -> 'enjoy life.'
Reading Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" (another highly recommended book!), I partly agree with his idea that we have to define our own meaning. Every person must strive for something, for a self-created meaning, lest they tumble into existential despair. The religious find this meaning in God whereas us less fortunate atheists have to resort to other means - helping humanity, taking care of our family etc. Only then can we be happy!
Unfortunately, I only partly agree with this because I think this will only work for some people. Personally, I believe this 'meaning' to be an illusion because, in the big picture, everything we do is meaningless. Nothing lasts - civilizations collapse, species become extinct, stars explode. But really, that's just something that can't be avoided. Alternatively, one can just embrace meaninglessness. "lalala, nothing matters! Life is beautiful! Just live your life!"
That's the worst part really. The understanding that nothing I do matters. I don't know if it's some bizarre part of consciousness that requires us to find MEANING. The cow in the pasture doesn't need meaning, it's just eating and reproducing. Ditto the elm tree in my backyard. Just us humans need this intangible concept that cannot be found. Boy, if only I was an Ancient Greek, I'd be happy in my ignorance 'knowing' that Zeus is flinging lightning and I'd get to join Hades in the Underworld when I die.
To be honest, I don't think there is an answer to this question of life's meaning. People have been thinking about it for thousands of years and noone has really arrived at a definitive answer. But that's what philosophy is about - asking the questions, not finding the answers.
I'm actually not that depressed... after typing this up, at least! These thoughts just have a tendency to creep into my mind. I can't stop them. Every time I just want to be able to command: "go away thoughts, I'm trying to be happy here dammit!" Well, if I can't suppress them, I have to get them out somehow! I find that's the worst - keeping something like this bottled up. Ideally I would be telling a friend but I don't really want to put my friends through this. I find people aren't particularly receptive to tangential rant. Indeed, it's best to keep conversation relegated to gossip and the amount of booze I consumed last night. Therefore, fellow teamliquiders who managed to get through that, you will have to do 
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I use to be like you so lost and would have agreed with most of what you said a few months back. that is until i found its a lie a many people are deceived by this. I was smart enought to figure out and God found me along the way. When i thought philsophy and how the world could be a better place it came be to Jesus, (who is a historical figure) he had the best philsophy life and how you should live your life. People need to find meaning because they havent found God and this isnt about religion this is about truth and has totally changed my view of the world and has helped me a lot. I have nothing against aethists because i was once like that and im not trying to troll or start a debate Im just trying to tell you how i came to the awnser for the meaning of life and once thought the exact awnser you did. Life isnt just doin what you want whenever or whatever i hope u realize that because we are all sinners and thats why the world is the way it is and through jesus we can be saved and be less sinful and live a life of fulfillment. There is one category everyone is a part of and that is we are all sinners. We havent become any better through the years just more perverted and sinful. God is all the meaning in life you will ever need there is nothing more fufilling, if not your just following another man just as lost and blind. I recommend if you havent to read the gospels in the bible or if anyone has any questions or wishes to debate this matter you can send me a pm or a message.
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it's more like 'life is pointless' -> 'enjoy life.' What happens when your selfish pursuit of enjoyment makes life less enjoyable for others and future iterations of humans?
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Sophie's world is one of my favourite books. Currently reading Jostein Gaarder's Maya, mainly about evolutionary biology.
While nothing we do would have any meaning would long term, they would mean something to the rest of the world. Most people think of great men like scientists contributed to our technological advances, leaders contributed to the world peace... But I believe that everyone of us would have certain meanings to others, should it be friends/relatives or even offsprings...
When I feel depressed/wondering the meanings of lives, I often think the goal of my lives is to repay to debts. E.g. how parents gave so much for me so I have to work harder to fulfill my duties...
Just a bit curious, what are you going to study?
edit: grammar
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Sophie's world is the standard text for most high school and some college Intro to Philosophy courses afaik. If you're obsessed with meaning and existence I recommend reading some existential novels rather than philosophy.
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All of the arguments that our lives are pointless view our lives from an omniscient perspective.
If you look at your life from your perspective you'll find there are a lot of things that matter a lot, like eating, being loved / respected, and doing interesting things.
As far as I know there is no omniscient perspective but I know for sure that mine is legit, so thats what I'll base my ideas upon.
I think religion exists because people tend to try to understand the world and themselves from an omniscient perspective by default, and doing so is really scary unless you have a god to hold your hand.
I'd tentatively say that this is the main difference between animals and people: animals evaluate things based solely on their own experiences and point of view while humans often create their new points of view and use them to evaluate things.
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not omniscient, objective
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On June 22 2009 10:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
not omniscient, objective
Yeah, you're probably right.
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There are plenty of subjective arguments which point towards irrelevance and plenty of objective arguments that point towards meaningfulness.
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WeaponX: I'm thankful that you introduced religion in a very respectful manner. I've often thought about religion too. In fact, I wish I believed in God, Angels, Heaven and an Afterlife. It would probably make me much more content and happier However, I just can't. I did a Science degree in university and after all the evidence, I just find it really difficult to believe in a God that actually cares about our existence. I need the proof - empiricism appears to be in my blood and I can't purge it out. The science I've seen points me to atheism. The main problem is just the lack of proof and really, that's what faith is all about - belief without proof.
L: Well, I would like to put a more humanistic spin on that statement then: "Enjoy life so long as you aren't hurting others"
Hafnium: Cool! I might check that book out too. I'm going to be studying medicine.
I suppose we can see it in this way: one can always find meaning at different levels. On a personal level, I need to take care of my mind (such as through this expunging of rants!) and body (by exercising). On a family/social level, my meaning may be to care for my family and be there for my friends. On a societal level, I can stay knowledgeable at my job so that I can be productive to society. On an environmental level, I can try to recycle and limit my pollution. Personally, I think once you go out enough levels you will hit a wall. This wall, the 'cosmic level', will have no meaning for atheists and plenty of meaning for the religious. I dream of a day when there will be meaning for both groups but until then I'll have to keep looking
I'm glad noone has flamed me yet. I suppose paragraphs, full sentences and a slightly self-deprecating tone is helpful
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I can guarantee that nearly every single action you take during the day has the potential to hurt someone else. Keep trying on that statement.
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So what's the solution? Suicide? That's probably not right because then I'm hurting myself with my action. Hrm, "enjoy life by trying to help others"?
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God is not necessary for a fulfilling and purposeful life. In my opinion that's a ridiculous cop out because you don't have an answer without making one up. Regardless of actual existence.
Life is meaningless, but does that mean it has to be without purpose? I say no
In this regard my worldview is largely based on Albert Camus's The Myth of Sisyphus and the philosophy of Absurdism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism
Life is in itself and the meaning of life is whatever motivation you can find to continue living.
lol.
In my younger days I was very nihilistic and had many feelings like the ones you displayed in the second half of your blog. After reading a bunch of Camus, Hume, Kant, Nietzsche and a bunch of books on information theory, and oversimplified theoritical physics books for the layman, I really feel enlightened and aware of the reality around me. I suppose I get out of philosphy and science what many people get out of God. I know most of you will largely disagree w/ me or whatever, but good blog imo, and I felt like contributing.
EDIT: On the question of What's the solution, Suicide? I feel I should point out that the entire premise of "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus is essentially: Does the realization of the meaninglessness and absurdity of life necessarily require suicide?
I'd recommend it, a good read at the least.
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On June 22 2009 11:02 Motiva wrote:God is not necessary for a fulfilling and purposeful life. In my opinion that's a ridiculous cop out because you don't have an answer without making one up. Regardless of actual existence. Life is meaningless, but does that mean it has to be without purpose? I say no In this regard my worldview is largely based on Albert Camus's The Myth of Sisyphus and the philosophy of Absurdism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AbsurdismLife is in itself and the meaning of life is whatever motivation you can find to continue living. lol. In my younger days I was very nihilistic and had many feelings like the ones you displayed in the second half of your blog. After reading a bunch of Camus, Hume, Kant, Nietzsche and a bunch of books on information theory, and oversimplified theoritical physics books for the layman, I really feel enlightened and aware of the reality around me. I suppose I get out of philosphy and science what many people get out of God. I know most of you will largely disagree w/ me or whatever, but good blog imo, and I felt like contributing. EDIT: On the question of What's the solution, Suicide? I feel I should point out that the entire premise of "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus is essentially: Does the realization of the meaninglessness and absurdity of life necessarily require suicide? I'd recommend it, a good read at the least.
Isn't meaning and purpose the same thing? Damn, semantics get me every time!
Of course, I'm sure that you don't need God to be happy. I read "The God Delusion" and thought to myself 'hey, that dawkins guy seems pretty happy... ditto bertrand russell.' But really, I just don't think anyone (uh nonreligious that is) can deny that one day the sun will explode and wipe us out
I will read about absurdism because I'm trying to use philosophy and science as a substitute for God too haha. And I'm sure most of us don't disagree with you, sometimes I can feel quite swept up by the beauty of reality ('omg, my body is made of cells functioning in ways we don't completely understand yet!').
EDIT: Indeed, at this moment, I'm somehow cheering up and finding my energy again. I've found some 'purpose' in just talking about this with strangers on the internet. (Who knows what crazy biological processes, what neurotransmitters, are at work in my brain..)
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Yea Dawkin's is pretty good. I enjoy his earlier books "The Blind Watchmaker" and "The Selfish Gene" God Delusion is just common sense imo lmao
Yea, I'm not a huge philosophy buff, I went through a pretty heavy phase of philosophy (meaning i've pretty much only read what I listed above) but i'm more knowledgeable on the scientific stuff.
Eh I suppose meaning and purpose really are too similar of words to achieve what I meant lmao
hmm... I suppose I simply meant that by life being meaningless that there is no genuine reason to continue living or to care about the future of anything. And yet knowing this, you are forced to come to the realization that maybe you don't really need a genuine reason. Life is in and of itself. Thus the meaning in life is derived from the experience you get from life. Absurdism concludes that it is impossible for us in our current state to determine whether or not life is meaningless. Agosticism2.0
The Myth of Sisyphus concludes w/ the dude (Sisyphus) in Hades that is chained to a giant ball and chain and spends eternity climbing a mountain, having 5 seconds of rest, and then having the ball drag him down to the bottom. According to Camus that even Sisyphus should be able to find purpose in his life and that we are forced to conclude that it is possible for even Sisyphus to be happy.
meh, i'm sure there are some errors here, but I enjoy talking about this stuff since noone i know IRL gives 1/2 a shit.
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Motiva, I'm reading this 'absurdism' wikipedia page and it is the bomb! Thanks for the link! That simple chart detailing the differences between existentialism, absurdism, and nihilism is pretty great - definitely breaks it down for me. Also, Camus' views are pretty much what I'm feeling right now too. I think we've arrived at the same conclusion: life might be meaningless but who cares and why should it affect your mood, your life? I'm just glad I didn't take the suicide route... The religious route just couldn't cater to my scientific mind... so I guess the only one left is recognition.
I'll check out some more of his stuff but it looks very interesting and promising so far. Already, I feel like I've stumbled on some pearl of wisdom. All it took was a blog entry too!
TL: helping out with epiphanies since 2000something.
EDIT: I totally feel the same way too. When I try to talk about this stuff with my real life friends, it just gets awkward. A silence descends then nervous laughter breaks out and I'll quickly change subjects. It's puzzling to me really - do other people just not go through with this existentialism? Actually, I suppose that is a part of it. Some people just don't care about meaning... they just live. Another part is that I think it's just not a social norm to talk philosophy - we've been brought up to be very superficial and talk about certain fluff topics. I mean I don't really see people talking about this on TV shows. "Breaking news: some 21-year old guy is going through existential despair!"
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Me and a few pals have pondered upon these philosophical questions, we came to the conclusions that there should be no answers.
One of the argument is that one can never answer the meaning of our own existence for meanings are usually defined long after the object/events has taken place.
Suppose we are looking upon the creation of the universe (big bang). We would be thinking what was happening, what was the point of such a huge firework display? But now that big bang has happened, we can say that it was the Big Bang that causes us to be thinking of the big question.
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I'm buying 'The myth of Sisyphus', 'The stranger' by Camus and 'Nauseau' by Sartre (I dunno, seems interesting). Yep, I've seen some TED stuff, it's definitely amazing where we're at in our society.
Hafnium: that's a good point. It's a very absurdist way of thinking - we can never know if there is inherent meaning in life.
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most science points to a finger print of an intelligent creator, your assertions and thoughts are not of your own but of other people, what is one persons validity over anothers. there are laws and regulations depending on where we are that we must follow this do not mean just because it is legal it is right. can u explain why u have this sense of right and wrong and how they so well fall in line with what God's ten commandments. if you are a man of science your a man of god and see the fine balance between the 4 major forces and how they are finely tuned (gravity, electromagnetic, weak nuclear and strong nuclear) as well as how we are on a planet that is not only in great position for life to live but for that life to observe and make these distinctions. I truly telll u many aethists die on their bed with no hope and seeing darkness even the great gandhi experienced this. im not a proponent of religion as it is a social and political tool but i am that of God and a man name Jesus that existed and did something incredible something that lasted meanwhile no one has ever done that... dont be fooled by another human being and dont say you cant accept this even though it is true because it will change how you have always thought and how you think lifes meaning or purpose is because in the end what do u gain.. the reason this is worth discussing and arguing is because lives and souls stand be lost and won. We are not here by chance or randomness, we have a specific purpose and meaning. what is knowledge without a beneficial application to not only yourself but others, what you do does it acheive this? with God not only does it do this but it pleases the creator of all things... I personally have very little motivation of what this world has to offer because all of it is meanigless or as you eliquently put there is no meaning to life if you are being deceived you dont kno, thats the thing with deception the devil offers you knowledge but its a lie. but when you find the truth it is such a beautiful thing that there is no counter to it, it wins your heart and mind it is logically and loving. It's no longer a question of is there a point to life or meaning its do you want there to be..
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EPT
