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On April 17 2009 01:49 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 00:45 Nytefish wrote:On April 17 2009 00:28 Reason wrote:On April 17 2009 00:07 Nytefish wrote:On April 16 2009 23:49 Frits wrote:On April 16 2009 23:20 Nytefish wrote:
When I make games "motw C- me random" it seems to attract the dumbest users on the server. I don't mind randoming and telling, but there's not enough space in the title to say that. Half the time it ends up like: If you don't mind randoming and telling, what the hell is the big deal with randomly choosing one of the three races yourself before the countdown giving the other player a guarantee you're not lying? Well I don't mind getting an advantage from random, but I'll tell if they ask. I'd say about 10% of people will ask what race you got, but out of those 99% will believe you when you tell them. LOL Of course you don't mind getting an advantage. The point is it's not fair. Plus from my own experience and I'm sure a lot of other people have this too people lie about race after they random to get even MORE of an advantage. If you can play all three races pick the race you play, whether your pattern be p,z,t,p,z,t,p,z,t or pp,zz,tt or something more random, whatever it doesn't matter, pick it yourself. Don't leave the other player in the dark/at a disadvantage. Picking random is the cowards tactic, looking for an easier win than you deserve. It's not an unfair advantage like maphack, it's not abusing game mechanics, I don't see the problem with random. Same with cheese builds, so what if they beat you with 4pool, who are you to judge who "deserves" to win. Yes it is an unfair advantage like maphack, why ? Because the other player does not have this advantage... An advantage based on anything other than skill of the game, before the game even starts, is unfair. Who am I to judge who "deserves" to win? Your tone is laughable. I'll tell you who deserves to win. Whoever joins the game on a level footing with their opponent, and ends up ahead, deserves to be the winner. Doesn't matter if you 14cc or 4 pool, what build or cheese you play, this is all irrelevant. It is part of the game. This is SCBW. Picking random in the game lobby and gaining an advantage over your opponent before the game has even begun (that is not based on skill) is NOT SCBW. Whoever wins, deserves to win. That is the point I was making, not that I am some almighty being who has judgemental powers over who deserves to win and who doesn't, and you were stupid to ask "who am I to judge" as if by having this entirely rational and equality-minded opinion I think higher of myself than others. The point, and I'll say it again; Whoever joins the game on a level footing with their opponent, and ends up ahead, deserves to be the winner. This involves you not hacking, not having obs whispering you in the ear where he is and what he is doing, and it also involves you both knowing/not knowing what race each other are. How can you possibly think it's fair if he has no idea what race you are when you know what race he is? His BO is going to be affected as a result yet you are fully informed and can play the correct BO, or even worse play a BO that will exploit his poor BO.
what the hell? random is not skill? they can play 3 races, how can that not be skill?
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On April 17 2009 02:51 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 01:49 Reason wrote:On April 17 2009 00:45 Nytefish wrote:On April 17 2009 00:28 Reason wrote:On April 17 2009 00:07 Nytefish wrote:On April 16 2009 23:49 Frits wrote:On April 16 2009 23:20 Nytefish wrote:
When I make games "motw C- me random" it seems to attract the dumbest users on the server. I don't mind randoming and telling, but there's not enough space in the title to say that. Half the time it ends up like: If you don't mind randoming and telling, what the hell is the big deal with randomly choosing one of the three races yourself before the countdown giving the other player a guarantee you're not lying? Well I don't mind getting an advantage from random, but I'll tell if they ask. I'd say about 10% of people will ask what race you got, but out of those 99% will believe you when you tell them. LOL Of course you don't mind getting an advantage. The point is it's not fair. Plus from my own experience and I'm sure a lot of other people have this too people lie about race after they random to get even MORE of an advantage. If you can play all three races pick the race you play, whether your pattern be p,z,t,p,z,t,p,z,t or pp,zz,tt or something more random, whatever it doesn't matter, pick it yourself. Don't leave the other player in the dark/at a disadvantage. Picking random is the cowards tactic, looking for an easier win than you deserve. It's not an unfair advantage like maphack, it's not abusing game mechanics, I don't see the problem with random. Same with cheese builds, so what if they beat you with 4pool, who are you to judge who "deserves" to win. Yes it is an unfair advantage like maphack, why ? Because the other player does not have this advantage... An advantage based on anything other than skill of the game, before the game even starts, is unfair. Who am I to judge who "deserves" to win? Your tone is laughable. I'll tell you who deserves to win. Whoever joins the game on a level footing with their opponent, and ends up ahead, deserves to be the winner. Doesn't matter if you 14cc or 4 pool, what build or cheese you play, this is all irrelevant. It is part of the game. This is SCBW. Picking random in the game lobby and gaining an advantage over your opponent before the game has even begun (that is not based on skill) is NOT SCBW. Whoever wins, deserves to win. That is the point I was making, not that I am some almighty being who has judgemental powers over who deserves to win and who doesn't, and you were stupid to ask "who am I to judge" as if by having this entirely rational and equality-minded opinion I think higher of myself than others. The point, and I'll say it again; Whoever joins the game on a level footing with their opponent, and ends up ahead, deserves to be the winner. This involves you not hacking, not having obs whispering you in the ear where he is and what he is doing, and it also involves you both knowing/not knowing what race each other are. How can you possibly think it's fair if he has no idea what race you are when you know what race he is? His BO is going to be affected as a result yet you are fully informed and can play the correct BO, or even worse play a BO that will exploit his poor BO. what the hell? random is not skill? they can play 3 races, how can that not be skill?
After playing the game for a while everyone can play 3 races reasonably competently, add to that the inherent advantage of going random and you see that no extra skill is required to be a random player.
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On April 17 2009 00:28 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 00:07 Nytefish wrote:On April 16 2009 23:49 Frits wrote:On April 16 2009 23:20 Nytefish wrote:
When I make games "motw C- me random" it seems to attract the dumbest users on the server. I don't mind randoming and telling, but there's not enough space in the title to say that. Half the time it ends up like: If you don't mind randoming and telling, what the hell is the big deal with randomly choosing one of the three races yourself before the countdown giving the other player a guarantee you're not lying? Well I don't mind getting an advantage from random, but I'll tell if they ask. I'd say about 10% of people will ask what race you got, but out of those 99% will believe you when you tell them. LOL Of course you don't mind getting an advantage. The point is it's not fair. Plus from my own experience and I'm sure a lot of other people have this too people lie about race after they random to get even MORE of an advantage. If you can play all three races pick the race you play, whether your pattern be p,z,t,p,z,t,p,z,t or pp,zz,tt or something more random, whatever it doesn't matter, pick it yourself. Don't leave the other player in the dark/at a disadvantage. Picking random is the cowards tactic, looking for an easier win than you deserve.
if you play random, you are playing with 9 mu, not 3 so STFU. And fuck the advantage, just send an early scout and problem solved. I hate when people bitch about random. If the other players play the 3 races better than you do your pitful one its your fault not his.
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On April 17 2009 00:47 Chill wrote:
Joining (you zerg) games is a disaster. So I never join games with race in the title.
agreed
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I had a friend (Protoss) play in a game where he asked the other guys race cause he forgot what it was. The guy says Terran and he actually picked Zerg and then he 5 pool's my friend.
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Sixghost
+ Show Spoiler +Read the thread.
I never stated or even implied that random was banned in the post you quoted, it was a blatant response to arb's comment that I should "deal with it dude", (as if I have some kind of emotional issue), because "it's in the game". Precedents have been set for things "in the game" being deemed unfair and banned as a result, thus his logic is flawed. I was merely pointing that out for him.
Wtf I am talking about is so wtfobvious that you clearly didn't read the thread.
You ask the question "Do players who have high APM or great timing have an unfair advantage?" when I already talked about that in a post following the one you quoted.
Also Sixghost you do not have to learn 3x the matchups to gain the random advantage, it is an inherent advantage. This is undeniable. Stop chattering nonsense to me, I have already made the distinction between unfair advantage vs skill advantage. (AKA A FAIR ONE)
Mandalor
+ Show Spoiler +I am surprised you are asking this question.
There's no denying there's skill involved in being able to play all three races proficiently, just as much as there's no denying that picking "random" as opposed to randomly picking the race yourself gives you an unfair advantage. Maybe you misread what I wrote?
In no way, shape or form did I even insinuate that playing three races does not involve skill...
Why are you quoting my post and asking me this?
Night]mare
+ Show Spoiler +"if you play random, you are playing with 9 mu, not 3 so STFU" Did I ever comment on that? Why are you so needlessly telling me to "STFU" when I have never, and will never claim what this comment implies I have? You fucking shut the fuck up. "just send an early scout and problem solved" Well no, now you are losing out on economy. So not problem solved, problem converted. You want a punch? No? Ok, I'll kick you! Problem solved? I think not. "SHUT THE FUCK UP" yourself. Fucking asshole. Do you even realise how ridiculous it is to "hate when people bitch about random" when you are bitching about me bitching about random? Worst part is I'm not even "bitching" I'm stating an opinion based on this fact... On April 17 2009 02:26 Reason wrote:
A player does not have the advantage because you have more intelligence on him than he does on you, he is quite undeniably at a disadvantage.
In my opinion this is an unjustifiable advantage, even taking into consideration that you have more matchups to practice. I'm entitled to my opinon, and I'm entitled to express it. I'm doing so in a manner fashion. What gives you the right to "hate" when I express my opinion, and to be so rude about it? Your actions are hate worthy, not mine.
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Random really isn't as unfair as you're making it out to be, otherwise you'd see a lot more random players. Since this is really an opinion based argument I don't see any reason to continue.
On another point, has anyone ever been screwed over by that glitch where you select random, then during countdown you click the race selection and hover over zerg (but don't click). It shows zerg in the game lobby but is actually random. Someone did it to me in a clan war  .
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then why play zvt??? zerg is CLEARLY at disadvantage. Marines are 1st tier ranged unites and bloody own zerglings!
same with zealots vs marines same with zerglings vs zealots. Youll find a disadvantage at anything should you look hard enough.
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Nytefish "Random really isn't as unfair as you're making it out to be"
Now just exactly HOW unfair am I making it out to be?
What level of unfairness on the unfairness scale to you claim I am proposing picking random lies at?
I am saying that I think it's unfair. End of. Nothing more.
I have no wish to continue this discussion whatsoever, but I will not leave a post directed to me unanswered. I think that's rude, even if the poster doesn't deserve my attention since he is being rude himself. I am not talking about you.
Night[Mare
Analogy failure 10/10
When you put enough thought and time into your posts so that they are not full of errors I'll be happy to actually give you a decent response. In the meantime, what you give is what you get.
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On April 16 2009 22:31 Piste wrote:
I'm not including any worthless info in the game name.
So you don't play vs terran? playing just two match ups doesn't give any improvement.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Playing only 1 match up until its a decent level then learning another is the best way of improving fast...
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random does give you an advantage, but sending a fast scout for the race chooser is much less costly than having to know 9 different MUs
sure they get the small economic advantage of you scouting earlier than usual, but you get the advantage of their play being much less refined than yours would be, given roughly equal skill/experience
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anderoo one could equally argue that the knowledge gained from knowing 9 different matchups gives you such an in depth knowledge of the game that you are superior to the opponent who only knows 3.
Take TvP for example.
How can you be the master of TvP when you have no clue about PvT?
Since player X's time is divided into thirds, aka TvP TvZ TvT and player Y must play all nine matchups,
who's to say that the 2/9th's of his total gaming time that player Y has invested in TvP and PvT doesn't actually make him better at TvP than player X who solely plays TvP ?
2/9(TvP1/9 + PvT1/9) is not much smaller than 1/3 [3/9](TvP).
So considering it's (TvP)1/9 + 1/9(PvT), who's to say playing the matchup 3 times less and the reverse infinitely times more because the other player uses only one race doesn't give you the edge in the game?
It's not as black and white as you are making it out to be.
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always hilarious to see some one dig themself into a hole through stubbornness
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I really hope he's trolling.
If not, whats to prevent both players from picking random?
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Seriously, what is wrong with you two?
inertinept, such a snide comment with zero justification or reasoning behind it.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2009 01:49 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 00:45 Nytefish wrote:On April 17 2009 00:28 Reason wrote:On April 17 2009 00:07 Nytefish wrote:On April 16 2009 23:49 Frits wrote:On April 16 2009 23:20 Nytefish wrote:
When I make games "motw C- me random" it seems to attract the dumbest users on the server. I don't mind randoming and telling, but there's not enough space in the title to say that. Half the time it ends up like: If you don't mind randoming and telling, what the hell is the big deal with randomly choosing one of the three races yourself before the countdown giving the other player a guarantee you're not lying? Well I don't mind getting an advantage from random, but I'll tell if they ask. I'd say about 10% of people will ask what race you got, but out of those 99% will believe you when you tell them. LOL Of course you don't mind getting an advantage. The point is it's not fair. Plus from my own experience and I'm sure a lot of other people have this too people lie about race after they random to get even MORE of an advantage. If you can play all three races pick the race you play, whether your pattern be p,z,t,p,z,t,p,z,t or pp,zz,tt or something more random, whatever it doesn't matter, pick it yourself. Don't leave the other player in the dark/at a disadvantage. Picking random is the cowards tactic, looking for an easier win than you deserve. It's not an unfair advantage like maphack, it's not abusing game mechanics, I don't see the problem with random. Same with cheese builds, so what if they beat you with 4pool, who are you to judge who "deserves" to win. Yes it is an unfair advantage like maphack, why ? Because the other player does not have this advantage... An advantage based on anything other than skill of the game, before the game even starts, is unfair. Who am I to judge who "deserves" to win? Your tone is laughable. I'll tell you who deserves to win. Whoever joins the game on a level footing with their opponent, and ends up ahead, deserves to be the winner. Doesn't matter if you 14cc or 4 pool, what build or cheese you play, this is all irrelevant. It is part of the game. This is SCBW. Picking random in the game lobby and gaining an advantage over your opponent before the game has even begun (that is not based on skill) is NOT SCBW. Whoever wins, deserves to win. That is the point I was making, not that I am some almighty being who has judgemental powers over who deserves to win and who doesn't, and you were stupid to ask "who am I to judge" as if by having this entirely rational and equality-minded opinion I think higher of myself than others. The point, and I'll say it again; Whoever joins the game on a level footing with their opponent, and ends up ahead, deserves to be the winner. This involves you not hacking, not having obs whispering you in the ear where he is and what he is doing, and it also involves you both knowing/not knowing what race each other are. How can you possibly think it's fair if he has no idea what race you are when you know what race he is? His BO is going to be affected as a result yet you are fully informed and can play the correct BO, or even worse play a BO that will exploit his poor BO.
You say you "hope he's trolling" yet you haven't even read the content of my posts? Why the hell do you hope I'm trolling if you don't even know what I have been saying.
Also, NOTHING OBVIOUSLY. DUH.
You already knew that, it's obvious.
It's also obvious that then both players are at the same advantage/disadvantage so it's fair.
Ignore the fact that it's obvious, I still already drew attention to it in the above post that is apparently so bad you hope that it's trolling.
Far from me trolling you, you are trolling me or you're just stupid. God I hope you're both trolling.
If not, explain yourselves.
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Whoa, the thread went 'random' shit.
I don't care about randoms.
I look at it this way. If it's an advantage to play random, would I do it?
nah, coz it's too hard to play all matchups.
So I realize it's the same for them.
If they have the same Starcraft talent as me, and they invested equal time into playing it and they play random, sure they will have a small advantage in the begining, but in the later stages of the game, my 1race-practice should pay off.
If they DO have 3 races on the same(or higher) level as my 1st race, and they random and use that advantage to build on it and win, then props and admiration to them!!
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I really don't mind playing random players... you just have to scout them earlier. It's not like it gives an unfair advantage... or are you saying you think you can play equally well with all three races?
And certainly you can argue that knowing PvT helps you play TvP; but what's unfair about that? It's just a good method of training, to help you get inside the other guy's timings.
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EPT
