A few years ago I held a summer job at a local town park working maintenance. As a seasonable employee I didn't really do much in the way of of fixing or maintaining things, but I helped out with some of the less desirable grunt work. For example, seasonals would often get roped into doing a garbage run (I probably did 2-3 per week working 5 days/week). A garbage run consisted of two gentlemen riding on the back of the truck (there was a platform to stand on unlike the residential garbage trucks) and emptying metal pales into the rear opening. This wasn't too bad until we got to the parking lots near the fishing piers where there were typically 3-4 pales full of rotting fish, but I digress. We also mowed grass, cleaned out charcoal grills, and drove around on John Deere Gators (shown below) picking up garbage and the like (more fun, and on hot days you just hang out at the beach and check out who's there).
One afternoon another seasonal and I were driving around on a Gator when we saw a workman driving away from a fountain he had been working on. We pulled up to the fountain to see that he had somehow struck a squirrel while pulling his vehicle out of the area. <Warning: don't read if you are very squeamish> We pulled up close to it and saw that the squirrel was still alive. Its chest cavity looked sorta crushed in, and we could clearly make out its breathing (it was lying on its back and we could see a very quick bouncing of the chest). It seemed unable to move itself.
We were confused about what we should do. It was painfully obvious that the squirrel was not going to survive such an injury. We discussed a few possibilities.
Leave it alone and come back later to clean it up after it dies.
Somehow kill it and put it out of its misery.
Desperately try to save it somehow against all odds.
Drive away and pretend we never saw it.
The people I've discussed this with have said I made the right choice, but ask yourself what you would do before you read the spoiler below:
Poll: What would you do? (Vote): Leave it alone and come back later to clean it up after it dies. (Vote): Somehow kill it and put it out of its misery. (Vote): Desperately try to save it somehow against all odds. (Vote): Drive away and pretend we never saw it.[/list] (Vote): Other (Write in reply)
We did choice 1. Our hearts told us to do choice 2, but we knew if anyone spotted us murdering a squirrel the circumstances would suddenly become irrelevant and we would get tons of shit. I've always sought a more creative response than the four above that somehow results in the greater good, but I haven't found one.
I would have almost undoubtedly driven off and possibly gone back to clean it up or left it for someone else...not gonna put myself through a lot of hassle for a squirrel.
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
Uhhhhh that is probably up in the top 10 of the dumbest questions I have ever heard.
If you feel pain you can sure as hell suffer and animals feel pain. Kill it quickly if you know it's not going to survive, no reason to let it just agonize there until it dies.
kill it. it would be hard and it would mess with your head, but it's the right thing to do. Just thinking how to kill such a small thing feels strange but as an maintenance worker you must have had some "tools". :/
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
Uhhhhh that is probably up in the top 10 of the dumbest questions I have ever heard.
If you feel pain you can sure as hell suffer and animals feel pain. Kill it quickly if you know it's not going to survive, no reason to let it just agonize there until it dies.
Well it's obvious they can feel physical pain, but it's hard to measure the amount of emotional pain they feel. And if it's okay to kill a suffering animal then why do so many people dislike euthanasia?
you should have killed it by dousing it with gasoline then lighting a match and watching it die and take pictures or a video camera so we can all see it. the other option is to use a chopstick or one of those long thin metal sticks and stuck it up its ass and through its mouth and then roasted it so you you can eat it (if it doesn't have any diseases) or put it into water first so you can drown it so that way you can do the rest easier
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
Uhhhhh that is probably up in the top 10 of the dumbest questions I have ever heard.
If you feel pain you can sure as hell suffer and animals feel pain. Kill it quickly if you know it's not going to survive, no reason to let it just agonize there until it dies.
Well it's obvious they can feel physical pain, but it's hard to measure the amount of emotional pain they feel. And if it's okay to kill a suffering animal then why do so many people dislike euthanasia?
Yea, i'm real worried about the emotional pain i'm in after my chest cavity gets crushed.
Kill the little thing, i cant stand seeing things in pain.
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
Could everyone who's thinking what I said was really stupid please explain why. I've looked up articles about this and they're all pretty inconclusive (and I'm not sure which ones to trust). I don't mind being wrong, I'd just like it if someone would tell me why.
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
Uhhhhh that is probably up in the top 10 of the dumbest questions I have ever heard.
If you feel pain you can sure as hell suffer and animals feel pain. Kill it quickly if you know it's not going to survive, no reason to let it just agonize there until it dies.
Well it's obvious they can feel physical pain, but it's hard to measure the amount of emotional pain they feel. And if it's okay to kill a suffering animal then why do so many people dislike euthanasia?
Yea, i'm real worried about the emotional pain i'm in after my chest cavity gets crushed.
Kill the little thing, i cant stand seeing things in pain.
But if the end result is death anyway why does it matter how the last moments go?
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
Uhhhhh that is probably up in the top 10 of the dumbest questions I have ever heard.
This is one of those questions that almost everyone thinks they know they answer to, but oddly enough, people are almost 50/50 split on it.
No one is saying the animal doesn't feel physical pain, but people are going to disagree greatly on the amount of 'distress', for lack of a better word, the animal feels.
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
Uhhhhh that is probably up in the top 10 of the dumbest questions I have ever heard.
If you feel pain you can sure as hell suffer and animals feel pain. Kill it quickly if you know it's not going to survive, no reason to let it just agonize there until it dies.
Well it's obvious they can feel physical pain, but it's hard to measure the amount of emotional pain they feel. And if it's okay to kill a suffering animal then why do so many people dislike euthanasia?
Yea, i'm real worried about the emotional pain i'm in after my chest cavity gets crushed.
Kill the little thing, i cant stand seeing things in pain.
But if the end result is death anyway why does it matter how the last moments go?
Yeah why the fuck would it matter? You know, why don't we torture you for a couple of months, and then you can die. I mean you're gonna die anyway, the torture doesn't matter right? You're a fantastic example of why my faith in humanity is sliding downhill.. fast.
On March 09 2009 04:31 FragKrag wrote: Dogs and cats are property, squirrels are not. And if it was a dog/cat, I'd still leave it.
If I saw you with your chest caved half-way in, I'd leave you to your pain too. You're just a human. And the property argument?! How the fuck do you manage to open doors with your IQ-level?
As for the blog.. wouldve killed it or tried to save it.. don't see any other thing to do here? The leave it alone and come back later to "clean it up".. lol. That shit reminds me of Scorpion. What if other people saw you standing over a dying squirrel and then drive away, just as bad as them seeing you kill it no?
On March 09 2009 05:04 Ethenielle wrote: As for the blog.. wouldve killed it or tried to save it.. don't see any other thing to do here? The leave it alone and come back later to "clean it up".. lol. That shit reminds me of Scorpion. What if other people saw you standing over a dying squirrel and then drive away, just as bad as them seeing you kill it no?
I don't agree with you. I think the risk to yourself for killing it is far greater than the risk for ignoring it. Most average park goers are probably not like you or me.
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
Uhhhhh that is probably up in the top 10 of the dumbest questions I have ever heard.
If you feel pain you can sure as hell suffer and animals feel pain. Kill it quickly if you know it's not going to survive, no reason to let it just agonize there until it dies.
Well it's obvious they can feel physical pain, but it's hard to measure the amount of emotional pain they feel. And if it's okay to kill a suffering animal then why do so many people dislike euthanasia?
Yea, i'm real worried about the emotional pain i'm in after my chest cavity gets crushed.
Kill the little thing, i cant stand seeing things in pain.
But if the end result is death anyway why does it matter how the last moments go?
Yeah why the fuck would it matter? You know, why don't we torture you for a couple of months, and then you can die. I mean you're gonna die anyway, the torture doesn't matter right? You're a fantastic example of why my faith in humanity is sliding downhill.. fast.
Well I'm not a squirrel. And intentionally inflicting pain is nothing like suffering due to inaction.
On March 09 2009 05:04 Ethenielle wrote: If I saw you with your chest caved half-way in, I'd leave you to your pain too. You're just a human.
Good to know.
And the property argument?! How the fuck do you manage to open doors with your IQ-level?
Dogs and cats hold sentimental value towards their owners. Squirrels, people feel sorry for them, and get over it within an hour whereas if somebody lost a dog, said person would feel a lot more emotion. That's what I meant by property.
On March 09 2009 05:04 Ethenielle wrote: As for the blog.. wouldve killed it or tried to save it.. don't see any other thing to do here? The leave it alone and come back later to "clean it up".. lol. That shit reminds me of Scorpion. What if other people saw you standing over a dying squirrel and then drive away, just as bad as them seeing you kill it no?
I don't agree with you. I think the risk to yourself for killing it is far greater than the risk for ignoring it. Most average park goers are probably not like you or me.
Well what would happen if a park-goer saw you kill the squirrel? I don't think we're talking capital punishment, so I have problems understanding the "save my own ass"-attitude in this situation.
On March 09 2009 05:04 Ethenielle wrote: I can't fucking believe the stupidity Im seeing..
On March 09 2009 04:42 Nytefish wrote:
On March 09 2009 04:41 decafchicken wrote:
On March 09 2009 04:36 Nytefish wrote:
On March 09 2009 04:27 Jayme wrote:
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
Uhhhhh that is probably up in the top 10 of the dumbest questions I have ever heard.
If you feel pain you can sure as hell suffer and animals feel pain. Kill it quickly if you know it's not going to survive, no reason to let it just agonize there until it dies.
Well it's obvious they can feel physical pain, but it's hard to measure the amount of emotional pain they feel. And if it's okay to kill a suffering animal then why do so many people dislike euthanasia?
Yea, i'm real worried about the emotional pain i'm in after my chest cavity gets crushed.
Kill the little thing, i cant stand seeing things in pain.
But if the end result is death anyway why does it matter how the last moments go?
Yeah why the fuck would it matter? You know, why don't we torture you for a couple of months, and then you can die. I mean you're gonna die anyway, the torture doesn't matter right? You're a fantastic example of why my faith in humanity is sliding downhill.. fast.
Well I'm not a squirrel. And intentionally inflicting pain is nothing like suffering due to inaction.
Do I really have to spoonfeed you? Pain is pain. Intentionally inflicting pain is just as bad as allowing it to happen by inaction. Hope you learn that someday..
And the property argument?! How the fuck do you manage to open doors with your IQ-level?
Dogs and cats hold sentimental value towards their owners. Squirrels, people feel sorry for them, and get over it within an hour whereas if somebody lost a dog, said person would feel a lot more emotion. That's what I meant by property.
So now we measure the worth of animals by the amount of emotion they invoke in us?
On March 09 2009 05:04 Ethenielle wrote: As for the blog.. wouldve killed it or tried to save it.. don't see any other thing to do here? The leave it alone and come back later to "clean it up".. lol. That shit reminds me of Scorpion. What if other people saw you standing over a dying squirrel and then drive away, just as bad as them seeing you kill it no?
I don't agree with you. I think the risk to yourself for killing it is far greater than the risk for ignoring it. Most average park goers are probably not like you or me.
Well what would happen if a park-goer saw you kill the squirrel? I don't think we're talking capital punishment, so I have problems understanding the "save my own ass"-attitude in this situation.
I'm not going to explain to you how being seen murdering animals in the town park that you work at can cause you problems. It doesn't take capital punishment for your ass to need 'saving.'
Do I really have to spoonfeed you? Pain is pain. Intentionally inflicting pain is just as bad as allowing it to happen by inaction. Hope you learn that someday..
Not really, no one's hounding you for not donating every bit of change you have to charity and flying out to save children trapped in a civil war. When a war starts somewhere, everyone who doesn't get up and protest is just as guilty as those who are killing? That can't be right.
On March 09 2009 05:04 Ethenielle wrote: As for the blog.. wouldve killed it or tried to save it.. don't see any other thing to do here? The leave it alone and come back later to "clean it up".. lol. That shit reminds me of Scorpion. What if other people saw you standing over a dying squirrel and then drive away, just as bad as them seeing you kill it no?
I don't agree with you. I think the risk to yourself for killing it is far greater than the risk for ignoring it. Most average park goers are probably not like you or me.
Well what would happen if a park-goer saw you kill the squirrel? I don't think we're talking capital punishment, so I have problems understanding the "save my own ass"-attitude in this situation.
I'm not going to explain to you how being seen murdering animals in the town park that you work at can cause you problems. It doesn't take capital punishment for your ass to need 'saving.'
I just exaggerated to say it wouldn't be so bad. If you were like 5 guys, you can explain the situation to whoever needs explaining?
Do I really have to spoonfeed you? Pain is pain. Intentionally inflicting pain is just as bad as allowing it to happen by inaction. Hope you learn that someday..
Not really, no one's hounding you for not donating every bit of change you have to charity and flying out to save children trapped in a civil war. When a war starts somewhere, everyone who doesn't get up and protest is just as guilty as those who are killing? That can't be right.
Youre missing the point.. again. Wait till after high school then give it another try.
On March 09 2009 05:04 Ethenielle wrote: If I saw you with your chest caved half-way in, I'd leave you to your pain too. You're just a human.
Good to know.
And the property argument?! How the fuck do you manage to open doors with your IQ-level?
Dogs and cats hold sentimental value towards their owners. Squirrels, people feel sorry for them, and get over it within an hour whereas if somebody lost a dog, said person would feel a lot more emotion. That's what I meant by property.
So now we measure the worth of animals by the amount of emotion they invoke in us?
Yeah, we do. It doesn't matter whether you choose to accept it or not. People value animals because of emotions. Not many people actually care that there are only x number of [insert endangered species], and if they do, it's because that animal invokes pity, an emotion.
Do I really have to spoonfeed you? Pain is pain. Intentionally inflicting pain is just as bad as allowing it to happen by inaction. Hope you learn that someday..
Not really, no one's hounding you for not donating every bit of change you have to charity and flying out to save children trapped in a civil war. When a war starts somewhere, everyone who doesn't get up and protest is just as guilty as those who are killing? That can't be right.
Youre missing the point.. again. Wait till after high school then give it another try.
I don't see why you feel the need to be so condescending, maybe you're the one who's not making your point clear?
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
wow really? what do you think animals dont have nerves? they dont feel pain?
I thought it was clear I wasn't talking about physical pain due to the nervous system. "Emotional" pain isn't really quantifiable so it's hard to argue either way.
On March 09 2009 04:23 Nytefish wrote: Do animals suffer like humans do? I'm not sure but I doubt it so I'd probably go with number 1.
wow really? what do you think animals dont have nerves? they dont feel pain?
I thought it was clear I wasn't talking about physical pain due to the nervous system. "Emotional" pain isn't really quantifiable so it's hard to argue either way.
Yer agreed, thanks for pointing out the irelevance on physical pain in this situation.
This is quite a coincidence, I had a dream last night in which I had two rabbits one of which was tiny (could have been a mouse, I'm not sure, it was tiny and hairy though) and the other was constantly trying to eat/kill it. I kept the bigger one in a cage and the other one one in the garden. At one point I see the bigger one on top of the small one (I let it out of the cage sine I had assumed I would have made my point about not killing the small one) and I run to pull it off. The small one is lying there and I pick it up. It's lying in my hands and is cowering but it looks at my. When I see the other side of the neck though it's all bloody and blood gushing out. My heart skips a beat for a second or two and then I twist it's neck. I wake up disturbed and guilty about my dream-me, whose decision was what he thought was the right thing I guess. Anyway, yer kill it. If someone 'sees you doing it' he/she probably also saw the other guy run him over. tbh, I am a sucker for animal violence and could never bring myself to hurt them critters (I don't even swat flies) but as I read it it would have been the right decision.
I chose option one because I have seen these situations in r/l with dying animals and I will just leave them there to die in sufferance. If anything the animal is frightened spotting a human being that his heart races even more. More then 3/4 of the time I always return to the area the animal was suffering at and it is usually gone. Weird stuff.
One time I was walking to go eat Chinese food with my friend back when I lived in Virginia, and I saw not one but TWO kittens laying in the middle of the road, both of them hit by cars, about 20 feet away from each other. I picked up a plastic bag and moved one to the side of the road, it was already dead. The other was far far more traumatizing.
NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH, IMAGINATIVE, OR PEOPLE EATING/ABOUT TO EAT
The second kitten was flailing around in the middle of the road, rolling every once in a while. When I stopped the car to pick it up, I was flushed with cold. Mind you, cats are my favorite animal in the world. This kitten had a face of pure terror permanently fixed on its visage. Like those yawning lolcats, the mouth was wide open. The impact of the car made the eyeballs protrude about an inch from the eyesockets, but remained in place and looking forwards. There was blood coming out of its ears and it was clearly VERY much alive, with undamaged chest cavity, but brain was entirely fucked up. I picked it up, moved it to the side of the road. I was considering dropping a cinder block on it. At that time a cop pulled over (this is like the main road of this town) and said that he had it handled.
I would kill it and clean it up if it was my job to deal with it. If not, I would just leave it were it was. I would not even go over to it to investigate, because that is how you got into your dilemma in the first place. It's impossible for us to know if the squirrel would prefer to live a few minutes longer in agonizing pain or die.
It reminds me of this hedgehog I saw this one evening that was hurt and kept walking around in circles and fell over every 2 seconds. It probably died shortly after I saw it.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.ecs.gatech.edu/dcpd/phase3/umass/Images/6x4%20gator.jpg)
I would have done option 1.
