EPTWC3 vs SC - Page 2
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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lwstupidus
United States74 Posts
On February 28 2009 00:47 yejin wrote: This a blog entry I've been thinking of for a long time. However, it's not sorted, it's just information I've been thinking for years. First fact - Love etc. WC3 loves SC, SC dislikes WC3. Amongst the WC3 players and fans, there is a huge respect for SC even if most of them don't have a clue about the game, they all pretend to be former SC players, that they began playing RTS on Starcraft etc. Sometimes it's true, most of the time it's just said to sound like a "true" gamer. Second fact - Hate etc. When I joined TL, I had 3 years of WC3 in my backpack and thousands of laddergames. I was watching every replay etc. I felt like I could help some people here understanding what is so good about WC3 but I quickly realize that there is almost no way to communicate about WC3 in the SC community. I understand why, I understand some of the reasons, but when you get to know WC3, there are amazing things out there to watch, to play. Third fact - Why are wc3 people fucking dumb ? It's not a random rage fact, it's a fucking real fact. I'm 25 years old and I'm "old" in the WC3 community. Old in experience and old in age. The community is younger than the SC community but still, I can't explain why people are so stupid on WC3. Try reading Bnet forums, try reading Sk-gaming forums, try reading wcreplays.com forums, you will NEVER EVER find in-depth guides like there is on TL. You will NEVER EVER find interesting discussions about a game like on TL. Seriously, the reason I love SC is mainly its community. Most of them are "imo" smart people, able to develope AMAZING software to watch games, building websites to write battle reports, building cooperative communities to share work and make crazy tools such as TLPD. On WC3, all you have is a bunch of crybaby whining when their streaming goes off. If they had any idea how hard it is to watch a SC game and how simple it is to broadcast WC3, they would never cry. The reason why they (we) are like that is because there was no pain in WC3. In starcraft, in the beginning, there was nothing to watch about a game. Then some people started writing battle reports, then some VODs came up, then the Online streaming but it all took so much time that most of you guys know when to enjoy a stream that works, it's a precious thing. Fourth fact. Balance where ? Why is that OOV can win 36 games in a row in a match-up and he's called a god or bonjwa and when Moon does that everyone goes crying "NE over imbalance". Why did the SC community managed to go over a bit the balance discussions and WC3 people never did. (Ok protoss is a bit ez but still). Everytime I watch a goodgame I wish I could find threads like on TL about WC3. But all I see is "lol grubby won lol gg orc" - "lol gg moon Ne imba". Etc. WHERE IS THE FUCKING IQ IN WC3 ? I used to love this game and I never found any community smart enough to enjoy the game at the same level you guys do on SC. So I switched game... and now, with SC2 and people talking everywhere about communities merging. Will we merge to the top, TL like sites ? Or will we merge down, with more stupid discussions, stupid newcomers, stupid balance stuff... I agree with you on most counts, the community sucks, and I would even argue that the community has been dead for years. First fact - Love etc. This seems like something you just made up, and is completely untrue in my opinion. This is something you probably experienced in an isolated respected, very few War3 players were SC:BW players, unless you're saying people were like this in 2003-2004 which was almost a lifetime ago. Second fact - Hate etc. Third fact - Why are wc3 people fucking dumb ? Agreed, War3 players in general are extremely retarded. The majority of the "skilled" games are long and what we have left is a degraded player pool and community. This cannot be fixed, and it has nothing to do with the game, it's because of WoW, DOTA, and the 1.15 patch, which killed the ladder. There's no "discussion" because there's nothing to discuss, and no one skilled to discuss it. NEVER EVER find in-depth guides like there is on TL. In addition to what I mentioned above, in-depth guides for a game like Warcraft III are largely useless because they are impossible to emulate. If a player has better micromanagement, than any strategic decision no matter how well executed is likely to fail. A guide cannot provide game sense nor can it even put you in a position to win in my opinion, so they are largely useless. Everyone in War3 should already have perfect build orders (which they don't of course). Fourth fact. Balance where ? Agreed. Except Undead vs Orc. I don't think anyone can argue against this, at the mid to top skill levels Undead vs Orc is imbalanced, I don't think this can be disputed. Look at International tournaments, WC3L statistics or anything. War3 players also don't have the luxury of professional map makers either. | ||
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ven
Germany332 Posts
Starcraft is mechanically more demanding and is strategically deeper but it's also a lot more obvious how the game works. That's what makes it such a great game for spectators. | ||
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esla_sol
United States756 Posts
this could be because of lack of popularity, or a host of other things, like bad timing. without a strong community, the game has stagnated. maps from 5+ years ago, rittled with imbalance, are still being played. the same top players are still dominating. undead vs orc has been ridiculous since patch 1.15, and there have been no changes to rememdy it (with 1500 games on the books, undead is at 41%- sk-gaming.com). that being said, its still not as good of a game as starcraft was, so its no surprised it died out. it is better than most people give it credit for, however. | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
On February 28 2009 00:56 yejin wrote: It was a long time ago, one of the last MBC Prime league in late 2004 had a map-maker from Clan REX. He modified the map to favor Orc units regen% leading ReX-Romeo to win it. After the scandal, the program stopped and came back named MWL. But the ratings were already so low, they just became even lower... First big bug was when it took 10 minutes to research ghoul frenzy (normally takes little time) and that game was regame because fan pressure. Next time romeo got to finals because he was using buffed orcs but Moon discovered that there was something weird and checked maps and noticed maps were rigged. Finals were played normal balance where Moon took it 3-0. Poor  Freedom lost to romeo 0-3 because this map thing. | ||
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Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
Even though some still believe that WC3 is imbalanced...look at Starcraft. It has a pretty good amount of maps that are imbalanced. WC3 maps are old, but they are pretty good imo. All in all, great post! | ||
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nimysa
United States383 Posts
On February 28 2009 04:45 Jaeden wrote: I totally agree with your post. Even though some still believe that WC3 is imbalanced...look at Starcraft. It has a pretty good amount of maps that are imbalanced. WC3 maps are old, but they are pretty good imo. All in all, great post! You mean Dayfly discovered the maps were rigged, but anyway the warcraft community was completely retarded. I remember the wcreplays mods having an ego the size of the freakin universe (IC.Shadow, Magess and some other dude with a Hulk icon that was part time body builder in real life forgot his name). and the people thinking that they knew everything about the warcraft scene. I mean good god, even getting anything from the Koreans involved getting through so much bullshit, back in 04 not one of the Korean WCR staff members were willing to set up a vod distribution system or share any vods at all. Everyone had to settle for piss poor battle reports. I also remember warcraft3strategy.com (the site doesn't exist anymore), where you had to pay $ just to get online strategy guides or commentaries from top-level players until the site figured out that no one was willing to do that let alone think of strategies that only required common sense or a little creativity. There was absolutely no strategic depth as complicated as Starcraft ever offered in that game. It was boring as hell too, the maps were used over and over again and it was the same shit all over again, the MBC league was the only league that had the guts to make new interesting maps, and it was also in this league that you saw new innovative strategies. Its point of time and place that I don't ever want to look back on ever again. People are also forgetting how childish and arrogant the pro's were (Madfrog, Grubby, Tod, Deadman etc) and how Blizzard completely destroyed the scene with the 1.17 firelord patch and the 1.15 destroyers while it took them like 4 months just to fix those bugs and make some minor changes. Also Starcraft is completely and perfectly balanced, the maps are debatable but Warcraft will never ever reach the beauty and the balance of Starcraft, EVER! The imbalance of Warcraft was just ugh!!! | ||
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F91
New Zealand77 Posts
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FreeDoM[YA]
Canada855 Posts
On February 28 2009 03:12 Piy wrote: I still think W3 is an amazing game, and the fact that it's remained competetive for so long is impressive. But simply because of the game system it will need to be constantly patched to accomodate the latest popular hero/item combinations. It could take a hundred patches to achieve a fully balanced metagame. the fact that it's remained competetive for so long is impressive. Starcraft wins But simply because of the game system it will need to be constantly patched to accomodate the latest popular hero/item combinations. It could take a hundred patches to achieve a fully balanced metagame. Starcraft wins again | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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rredtooth
5460 Posts
On February 28 2009 00:47 yejin wrote: Fourth fact. Balance where ? Why is that OOV can win 36 games in a row in a match-up and he's called a god or bonjwa and when Moon does that everyone goes crying "NE over imbalance". Why did the SC community managed to go over a bit the balance discussions and WC3 people never did. (Ok protoss is a bit ez but still). Everytime I watch a goodgame I wish I could find threads like on TL about WC3. But all I see is "lol grubby won lol gg orc" - "lol gg moon Ne imba". Etc. You give the SC community too much credit. People scream imbalance all the time but its become so common (and the listeners so used to/immune to it) that we don't really notice. Were it not for the ever vigilant moderators, it'd be more visible. If you don't believe me, try to find me the last strategy thread talking about Protoss that doesn't have a stupid "1a2a3a" joke. And usually with SC, its more talk about map balances than race balances. Plasma, ROtK, Wuthering Heights, etc. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
So, sooo true - your first point especially has frustrated me something tremendous. I used to (kind of) be one of the "lol wc3" crowd and can only look back on that and shake my head :/ Anyway, WCReplays still does have some nice qualities imo - their audio section is awesome, especially Phreak. They have some fairly comprehensive guides for NE and (at least) Humans in their strat forums too (stickied). Patience's gigantic NE primer audio commentary pack was impressive, even though as a WC3 fish I can't really judge the level of the content). @ LW, almost everytime I see SC mentioned on WCReplays there are more positive comments than negative. Maybe they are just a very SC-friendly part of the Wc3 community o_O @ Claims of imbalance in general.. Go back in time to pre-Bisu and you'll find soooooooooo many threads about how PvZ is impossible etcetc. I'm glad I was on the right side of that one lol (#1 champion of the "PvZ is balanced" cause!). | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On February 28 2009 07:04 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: yeah but as you said yourself 1a2a3a joke is a joke, even if it is a bad one. I think everyone is aware that protoss is only on low levels slightly easier. too bad most of the players are low level haha :D | ||
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
On February 28 2009 00:47 yejin wrote: Or will we merge down, with more stupid discussions, stupid newcomers, stupid balance stuff... God I hope not. One of the things that have kept TLnet a great website is moderation that doesn't tolerate dumbasses. Mods/admins actually deal with this shit. I hope they never get lazy or relaxed and let the community degrade even further than it already has. Mods/admins, if you ever need an extra bruiser I'm your man for the job. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
That definitely contributes. | ||
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yejin
France493 Posts
In 2006, WC3 was so big, so big. For me, we were that close to go beyond the SC commercial success. Moon getting CRAZY salaries, MYM, SK, World Elite, Beijing esports team etc. making crazy contracts. And then, it fell, so quickly. and even myself, the biggest fan out there, I lost every bit of interest in a couple of months. The reason In Starcraft, the community managed to let go some of the stars. It's heartbreaking to see kingdom, Nal_Ra or yellow walking away but on the other hand, it's necessary. The new unknown gamers we hated when they eliminated the stars made the survival of SC possible, maybe lowering the TV rates tho. On Warcraft 3, the community and the tournament organizers NEEDED the stars. Always. You don't qualify ? No problem, I'll auto-invite you and 4 other guys we see every day. In 2005, moon played grubby on LAN in V-sports allstars Los angeles. There had been encounters before but back then Grubby was not so good yet. That one game thrilled me and maybe 10 000 other guys trying to watch it. Right now, if you go on replays.net and type Moon Grubby, you'll find 200 replays (I'm not kidding) of Moon vs Grubby and every possible map, every possible days. Try to imagine Nada vs Savior every 2 weeks during 3 years. Would you care ? Nope. We love the SC Stars because everytime they make it to RO8 or RO4, it's a fucking blessing. One more thing. On teamliquid, when I joined, I've seen threads about guys in the USA meeting for the OSL Finals and beers and chips and party. HOLY SHIT. I was so so so jealous. THATS THE REAL FUCKING DEAL MAN. You have a fucking nice game, you get hyped, you bring buddies, you get drunk and you watch Savior winning an OSL. Psychologically, the reason why the game feels so good then, it's because of your anticipation and your mindset when the OSL opening starts. In wc3. No hype, no cool opening (or a LONG time ago). Just a poor chinese guy on Gamebank TV presenting a jpg picture of moon showing some stats, and not even a forum talking about the game being played...;;;;;;;; Oh boy, the more I think about it, the more I realize wc3 was dying in front of us, and we didnt see it coming until it was too late. The ESL cutting off WC3 from extreme masters + going with 2 men line-up in the WC3L just cut the last breath of one of my favourite. I Feel that the story could have been different, maybe I'm wrong. | ||
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Elvin_vn
Vietnam2038 Posts
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yejin
France493 Posts
When TeamLiquid writes about league it's always named "Sponsor - League" as "Batoo OSL" or "Pringles MSL". That's called being smart. Why ? Because if you make sponsors happy, then they might be happy with what they paid for, so when a website takes care of talking about a sponsor, it takes care of its own community. On WC3, the marketing knowledge was so poor, and the people in command so new to business that the sponsors were always fighting. A team website being sponsored by Intel, Steelseries & co would never promote a league sponsored by AMD and Qpad. Or they will just say "NGL results". Then every website goes on and make pictures without the sponsor, team names without the sponsor etc. So, what would the sponsor do when the contract ends ? bye bye... AND MANY MORE MISTAKES. | ||
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