|
I don't want to post this in the strategy forum since I'm pretty sure it's going to get closed if I don't post replays of this working.
Anyway, if you think about the spell Spawn Broodling the first thing to come in mind is an overpriced spell that has a minimal effect on the field of battle. It costs 150 energy, which means it's going to take ages for the queen to cast it again. Also, it's hard to cast as you have cast with each queen individually.
Against Terran bio Broodling only works as a bad tank repellent and the queen usually dies when it tries to actually cast the spell. Against Protoss you have mutas to do the Templar sniping and Broodling doesn't work against both Archon and Reaver.
All in all Broodling is a horrible spell and that's pretty much it. This is what I have come to believe UNTIL NOW.
If you take a look at Broodling you notice that it has an energy cost of 150. Irradiate kills almost every unit Zerg with just 75 energy, so naturally Broodling is a horrible spell when compared to Irradiate. However, when thinking like this the casters themselves are not taken into consideration. Queen costs 100/100 while Vessel costs 100/225. This means that in a sense Broodling is not such a costy spell as it seems.
Now, one thing I've noticed about Terran metal is that the Terran either aims for a timing push or they want to reach a critical mass via upgrades and tank goliath combination. The games tend to be Terran turtling and massing, quite similar to Flash's TvP, really.
Now, in this situation Broodling has a few things going on for it.
1. There is very little early game threat other than vulture harass, which means that you can mass some queens and wait for their energy to charge. You also get the queens early, and they're by the tech tree, so that you can use them for the whole duration of the game.
2. Terran units are very expensive, more expensive than Protoss units in a sense. A tank is 150/100 while a Goliaths is 100/50. This means that after at least the second Broodling attack queens have paid themselves back and have postponed the critical mass point of Terran.
3. Hard to get rid of Parasite. You need Parasite to clone your queens. This time Terran doesn't have medics to cure the infestation.
4. Broodling is a siege spell. You notice that usually Terran doesn't move out until he has a critical mass and just sits with his tanks sieged and Goliaths on hold position at his nat or a chokepoint. Broodling has a slightly longer range that the Goliath, so the queen shouldn't get itself killed.
5. Queens work like Science vessels. Think about it, if Terran has 10 science vessels, the Zerg is pretty deep in the mud. Now, if Zerg has 20 queens wouldn't the Terran be in equal trouble? The difference is, that Terran has limited ways to kill queens. Mass wraiths? It gets killed by ensnare. Irradiate comes to mind as a soft counter, but it's hard to irradiate faraway moving objects and the Terran will not have many vessels due to using gas on Goliaths and Tanks. This also means that the longer the game lasts the more effect mass Broodling will have.
6. Doesn't compete with mass hydra and is more cost-effective than mutalisks. Against metal Zerg needs minerals more than gas. Mass hydra only takes so much gas, which means you can choose between the Mutalisk, which becomes a waste of resources later on, and the Queen, which becomes a great investment with time.
Anyway, what I really want to hear is your opinion. Also, maybe replays of you using Broodling against metal.
|
MrHoon
10183 Posts
Firefist actually used Broodlings in the Go.Go series, against 2 tanks. It allowed Firefist to clean up gogo's goliaths pretty quick using hydras.
Broodlings in bio seem like a pretty bad idea honestly, but against the metal builds 2-3 queens sniping tanks can help alot so it can work (mech army with no Goliaths is pretty shit). I would love to say more on this topic but Firefist was the only one who actually did it on live tv, so Im kinda lost.
|
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently
|
MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently
oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb
|
I wanna see some replays of this being used effectively. 
|
On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb
+ Show Spoiler +
|
What I wonder is, why aren't queens used to snipe Templar instead of mutas? Goliath have a range of 8 upgraded whereas dragoons only have an upgraded range of 6. And since queens cost the same amount as mutas, wouldn't they be more cost effective?
|
On January 10 2009 23:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb + Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +...You could have saved me a lot of time if you didn't spoiler that bit.
I watched it excitedly and then was very disappointed.
|
On January 11 2009 00:08 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
What I wonder is, why aren't queens used to snipe Templar instead of mutas? Goliath have a range of 8 upgraded whereas dragoons only have an upgraded range of 6. And since queens cost the same amount as mutas, wouldn't they be more cost effective?
I feel is more of a timing sense than the cost effectiveness. In the early parts of the game, you need all the resources to make an army to repel his forces and expand. If you are going to get queens that early just to conserve mana till the later part of the game, you are forgoing the resources for your army which could be crucial against timing attacks or +1 zeal attack. Therefore getting mutas would be a better choice.
|
I should try this next time I play zvt vs some noob ^_^
|
MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 10 2009 23:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb + Show Spoiler +
D: too late
|
On January 11 2009 00:41 dragoonkf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2009 00:08 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
What I wonder is, why aren't queens used to snipe Templar instead of mutas? Goliath have a range of 8 upgraded whereas dragoons only have an upgraded range of 6. And since queens cost the same amount as mutas, wouldn't they be more cost effective? I feel is more of a timing sense than the cost effectiveness. In the early parts of the game, you need all the resources to make an army to repel his forces and expand. If you are going to get queens that early just to conserve mana till the later part of the game, you are forgoing the resources for your army which could be crucial against timing attacks or +1 zeal attack. Therefore getting mutas would be a better choice.
Well, I'm talking more about using queens in a 5-6 hatch neosauron hydra build, which seems to be the new standard for zerg play. It is relatively easy to defend without mutas and just use hydra lurker scourge. However I've seen Jaedong go mutas with this build purely for picking off Templar plenty of times. So I'm just wondering if queens are better for this purpose.
|
On January 11 2009 00:11 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +...You could have saved me a lot of time if you didn't spoiler that bit.
I watched it excitedly and then was very disappointed.
+ Show Spoiler + lol your comment made me laugh
|
On January 11 2009 00:52 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2009 00:41 dragoonkf wrote:On January 11 2009 00:08 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
What I wonder is, why aren't queens used to snipe Templar instead of mutas? Goliath have a range of 8 upgraded whereas dragoons only have an upgraded range of 6. And since queens cost the same amount as mutas, wouldn't they be more cost effective? I feel is more of a timing sense than the cost effectiveness. In the early parts of the game, you need all the resources to make an army to repel his forces and expand. If you are going to get queens that early just to conserve mana till the later part of the game, you are forgoing the resources for your army which could be crucial against timing attacks or +1 zeal attack. Therefore getting mutas would be a better choice. Well, I'm talking more about using queens in a 5-6 hatch neosauron hydra build, which seems to be the new standard for zerg play. It is relatively easy to defend without mutas and just use hydra lurker scourge. However I've seen Jaedong go mutas with this build purely for picking off Templar plenty of times. So I'm just wondering if queens are better for this purpose.
Because the muta timing just catches the protosses off guard, being unable to defend their templars, but for queens, all they need to do is get shuttles and load the templars in it to prevent them getting brooded. Of course they have to spent extra resources on the shuttle and 2 scourge would just clear them as easily as the queens would have. To be honest, I'm on the fence on this broodling strategy for both ZvP and ZvT (mech). It really does seem viable especially on the lower levels like Ds and Cs.
|
On January 11 2009 00:11 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +...You could have saved me a lot of time if you didn't spoiler that bit.
I watched it excitedly and then was very disappointed.
Haha sry
|
I'm going to work now. When I come back, I want to see some replays with this strategy used, or I will be very disappointed.
|
Belgium9945 Posts
A C+ korean zerg just used this against me. I don't think its viable tbh. His queens came out useful though (infested 3 CCs lol). But I won in the end
|
150 energy takes forever to get. If the Terran kindly obliges you by waiting for his push until you have energy, then you're good, but usually they push out whether you're ready or not. Then because you've spent your money on queens rather than units, your army gets crushed while you're waiting for energy. The difference between 75 and 150 energy is night and day, not to mention that science vessels also allow you to see those pesky lurker. Also, they are a gas sink, generally allowing you to use the extra resource you have to devestating effect.
As far as Queen vs Muta for sniping templar, Muta is a much stronger choice overall. While Queens may arguably better for the sole purpose of sniping templar, they don't have the other advantages of mutalisks. For one, mutalisks are a threat anywhere on the map, meaning Protoss now has to spend more money for cannons at his expo to prevent his probes from getting picked off. He has to worry about always having anti air around his army, the mutas generally do a lot of damage to his ground forces and they can attack reavers.
|
On January 11 2009 02:40 GeneralStan wrote:
150 energy takes forever to get. If the Terran kindly obliges you by waiting for his push until you have energy, then you're good, but usually they push out whether you're ready or not. Then because you've spent your money on queens rather than units, your army gets crushed while you're waiting for energy. The difference between 75 and 150 energy is night and day, not to mention that science vessels also allow you to see those pesky lurker. Also, they are a gas sink, generally allowing you to use the extra resource you have to devestating effect.
As far as Queen vs Muta for sniping templar, Muta is a much stronger choice overall. While Queens may arguably better for the sole purpose of sniping templar, they don't have the other advantages of mutalisks. For one, mutalisks are a threat anywhere on the map, meaning Protoss now has to spend more money for cannons at his expo to prevent his probes from getting picked off. He has to worry about always having anti air around his army, the mutas generally do a lot of damage to his ground forces and they can attack reavers.
Making a few 100/100 queens does not preclude a 5 base zerg from making mutalisks
|
More apm-> sure why the fuck not queens!
macro first
As chill put, "lots of kids can do cute shit but no macro =["
|
Goliath with range outranges queen spells. It'd be REALLY hard to get off any spells on mech.
|
The problem with this is that very, very few people have enough apm to micro 20 queens effectively.
|
On January 11 2009 02:54 StRyKeR wrote:
Goliath with range outranges queen spells. It'd be REALLY hard to get off any spells on mech.
Nope, Broodling has 9 range while Goliath has 8.
And you want to broodling the goliaths that guard the tanks, unless you see an opportunity to kill the tanks without wasting the queens in the process.
On January 11 2009 02:20 RaGe wrote:
A C+ korean zerg just used this against me. I don't think its viable tbh. His queens came out useful though (infested 3 CCs lol). But I won in the end
REP PLEASE!
I need to see his BO!
|
i've tried this
reasons it doesn't work well:
takes up too much larva (less army) - especially trying to get "20 queens" to 150 energy by the time the terran is ready to push
b/c of queen acceleration/deceleration speed, it usually dies after using broodling
even if it doesn't, it likely won't be able to use it again throughout the course of the game
|
On January 11 2009 03:46 Saracen wrote:
i've tried this
reasons it doesn't work well:
takes up too much larva (less army) - especially trying to get "20 queens" to 150 energy by the time the terran is ready to push
b/c of queen acceleration/deceleration speed, it usually dies after using broodling
even if it doesn't, it likely won't be able to use it again throughout the course of the game
I was thinking of making only a few queens in the early stages of the game, then adding them gradually when you get a better econ, eventually getting a massive amount of queens, like Terran does with science vessels. Making too many in the early stages is suicide. You need a "bread" army there while queens are the "butter" of your army.
You obviously need a massive ground army to kill the Terran. Queens are there to weaken the Terran over time, not kill the Terran.
However, I'm definitely interested in the deceleration issue. Were you using parasite before using Broodling? I've noticed that it improves the casting AI. Also, were you cloning the queens, then using the shift-move to make them run away automatically?
I hope rage posts the rep...
|
On January 11 2009 03:46 Saracen wrote:
i've tried this
reasons it doesn't work well:
takes up too much larva (less army) - especially trying to get "20 queens" to 150 energy by the time the terran is ready to push
b/c of queen acceleration/deceleration speed, it usually dies after using broodling
even if it doesn't, it likely won't be able to use it again throughout the course of the game
Don't you think 20 queens is abit too much ? I believe 5-6 queens will suffice, make the tanks your priority target, it will significantly reduce and slow down his pushing power of the metal.
What im worried about this BO is a timing attack from terran due to resources going to the queen's use =/
|
This is definately worth trying imo
The reason that why Z can't have equal amount of queens compared to vessels worth of gas is that Terrans only seem to have that much vessels when he goes SK terran (which is low on gas)
I'd say about 10 queens is viable. But Z should also get the +50 energy upgrade so that he can save up energy and use another broodling after waiting just a little. Should take out a good 20 tanks which will make a huge difference
Another good thing about broodlings is that the little critters that come out of the spell will attack the metal army, which will cause the metal army to fire upon itself to cause splash damage on its own army
|
United States17042 Posts
This was discussed earlier in the zerg on crack thread. Basically, it's tough to micro, and tends not to be useful vs true m/m.
against metal, if you can micro it and snipe tanks, it can be useful, as it adds to the mobility of your army and can cut down the army size. However, the amount of goliaths makes that near suicidal for the queen and you can't lower the army size enough to make it worth it. and mana regen sucks
|
Sorry to bump just very interested in this, i also noticed queens do have a good range when doing broodling so it would be pretty good for quick hit and runs. 150 energy is annoying but for a 1 hit kill of any ground unit it does pay for itself. Against T i imagine it wrecking havoc in tank blocks due to splash damage as they try to kill the broodlings too. Also you got esnare which is always useful of course, slowing down sci vessels or just any unit, also good to note that it exposes cloaked units. Not sure when it would be too useful in that manner but you never know, if theres an annoying DT prehaps. Broodling against P probably not as useful to have too many around, but i guess instantly killing HTs is a good thing infact suprised its not done more. Imagine sneaky Queen use darting into bases and taking expensive units out. Templar protecting the nat would be useless. Ensnare you can slow armies down from getting away from lurkers so easily, ensnare/scourge shuttles prehaps. Maybe ensnare a bunch of workers then kill them all quickly before they get away
I realize while the broodling range is higher than goliaths they would still hit you quickly, so it would be best to factor the terrain into your advantage in this. You'd had to pick the right area so you're above a cliff then as they are below pick them off. Also forgot to mention parasite could be useful for scouting purposes keeping tabs on your enemy. But you'd want to save the energy i guess.
Im probably too low level of a player to do this effectively but im going to give it a try. The idea of a small flock of queens flying around causing problems is certainly interesting. The energy cost unfortunately is high, but if Sci Vessels are even more expensive i don't see why a few queens couldn't come in handy at least mid-late game.
|
it takes a lot of time to reach 150 energy for broodling. and also, it costs a lot of extra gas to research extra energy, which does help but not a lot.
|
On February 13 2009 19:41 29 fps wrote:
it takes a lot of time to reach 150 energy for broodling. and also, it costs a lot of extra gas to research extra energy, which does help but not a lot.
This.
At first I understood your comparison to science vessels, as broodling works similar to irradiate sniping units between and during battles. The thing is though, you cant just pop 5 queens out and then grab 5 tanks. You have to invest 5 larve and money into queens that just sit there for an extremely long period of time doing nothing. Terran science vessels atleast provide detection and can be used to irradiate soon (esp with upgrade).
|
Doesnt work because queens die in record time to ranged, upgraded gols and the queen needs to be alive when the broodling hits (and remain still before it hits i think, like emp) for it to work.
The energy needed is not really an issue, it just works much like a toss going arbiters for recall.
|
Just adding to what's already been said. You can't really directly compare costs from different races. Vessels do cost more gas, but they're everything the Terran needs gas for. Zerg needs TONS of gas for countless of units (lurk, muta, scourge, defiler, ultra). Building queens and researching the required tech means you'll have a far weaker army as a result. Terran army (in the case of SK Terran of course) is always the same whether he builds vessels or not, so he can easily use all gas he gets for vessels from 2 ports and not have any disadvantage from that.
|
queens are better used against standard terran army when you go hydra/lurk or lurker/ling.
snipe tanks, then gogogo.
or remember the reason why people dont do this and just fucking get defilers already.
|
Im sorry about this bump, but Ive been looking everywhere for a discussion about this. I hope I dont break any forum-policies or such for awakening this thread again. It seemed unmotivated to start a new thread when this one was already here.
Ive thought about this quite a bit, and I see several advantages with atleast one queen late game. This is only theory-starcraft since im truly a noob, and while I might sound like im stating facts I merely mean this as a question to more experienced players. My apparant lack of humbleness is mainly a lack of english vocabulary, its easier for me to write it down like this.
A queen have 4 (but Id like to add a 5th) abilities:
1. Infest CC
2. Ensnare
3. Parasite
4. Spawn Broodling
(5. Muta-speed)
Even one queen would be useful VS terran, esp late game where you get the chance to clear out a terran expansion in no-mans land. In an even, long game this situation should probably occur, even more than once? And keep in mind that the queens nest is on the way to hive so you will allready have all the prerequisites anyway.
The Terran respons to zerg (lurker/ling) cleaning out an expansion is usually just to lift the CC to the safety of the air, and counterattack somewhere else, and force the Zerg-army away, land, restart expansion. But with a queen (and maybe a few scourges) you can take that CC out rather handily with infest and respond to the terran counterattack.
First of all, you get to keep the queen wich is great. Secondly he looses a CC and position, wich is also great. And you gain infested terrans. And it dosent cost any energy. (I believe).
As a bynote; I guess you could fly the CC over his base to psych him and having him kill his own CC, or maybe just land it at that expansion spot to block it and delay future expansionattempts. Infested terrans could be built and used to drop at siegetanks with the help of an overlord, much as the protoss does with zealots. An overlord can carry eight infested, and they do 500es damage (explosive, splash) so they could really throw havoc. Another way to make infested useful is to use darkswarm to help them reach their target before beeing blown apart. Dropping them at a supply-depot cluster would lower a terran supply quite a bit.
Parasite on the other hand have a great range, 12, cost 75 to cast, and could give you valuable intel. If you cast it at a siege tank, will he sacrifice it? Or will he put it somewhere where he dosent give away uneccesaryt intel? It will probably influence his game at any rate, hampering him and thus help you. If he dosent notice or dosent care, you will know what he is up to all the time wich could be invaluable.
Ensnare is the golden deal here (that is my belief). It also cost 75 to cast. With lurker/ling vs a mixed terran, ensnaring the marines (doesnt matter much if your lings get ensnared aswell, i guess the best microorder would be, swarm, lings, ensnare, lurkers) will increase the efficiancy of the lurker push immensly. They wont be able to get away as easily. Ensnaring Science Vessels will help you kill them off with scourge.
Ensnare also works great defensively and will help your sunken kill of many more marines before dying maybe buying you some necessary time to get the rest of your (less mobile) force over there to deal with the threat.
Spawn broodling does seem rather hard to get pay-off from, maybe best used to kill annoying tank-drops on hard to reach places. It costs 150 to cast. As mentioned before you would need alot of queens for them to make an impact, and all else things equal between the two players, investing in that many queens must give the zerg player an economic disadvantage that will be hard for the queens to make up for. Or so I think. Queens really need a massive army to make them useful, its a support unit, and building that many queens means building alot less other units.
Last, the speed. Queens are lightening fast (just as quick as a muta I think as long as they dont stop.) While waiting for them to reload, have it/them moving around the map and they will give you great scouting-capabilites. Unfortunately they die very easy to turrets so a keen eye and quick reflexes might be necessary to keep her alive. My point here is that they are not enirely useless when low on energy, they can still be somewhat helpful.
Getting atleast one queen late-mid just to kill of CCs seems like a really good idea to me. Ensnare mid-game also seems like a cheap way to get the economical advantage (helping your lurkers killing of more marines). If one (or a few) queen makes your opponent change his build to include goliaths, well, then that too is a good thing since (I believe) vulture/tanks is a stronger combination, and goliaths vs groundunits are a weaker alternative.
Queens start out with 50 energy, so they should at a minimum be able to throw down atleast one good ensnare before dying to irradiate, and maybe that will save the life (for a little bit longer atleast ) a defiler.
I understand that pro-gamers and "europeans" play the game diffrently, progamers never use queens as far as I have seen, are queen used in the european "style" at all?
|
Well... the whole faking the opponent into killing his own CC is probably not going to happen, and although a queen is a good way of taking down a CC, if you can get the queen in there, you're probably in a good enough position to just kill the CC without it (Of course there are exceptions, but this is just what I've seen) The infest CC is used more as a slap in the face rather than a true offensive technique. Ensnare is gold I agree, but overall I think the limited queen usage is more about the focus and apm that it takes off other things, and very rarely does a queen turn the tide of a game. However that being said there is a recent zvz that uses queens and ensnare to great effect and in spectacular fashion.
|
I cant tell you how many replays ive seen where the Zerg cleans out a terran expansion with lurker/ling and where the terran respond with just lifting off the CC. The zerg have nothing to reach it, and are forced to respond to a counterattack somewhere else and so the Terran just slaps down that CC again, reinforce and all the gain is lost. I guess a controlbutton of scourge would remedy that aswell, or just saving some hydras for the occasion, but a queen is just such a beutiful solution (and a quen bitch-slap in the face is part of the psychological war that all great mano-a-mano games are.. : ) )
And I wonder if you couldnt make infested terran have an impact on the game if you knew what you where doing, i was outlining some ideas above.
Im thinking that the queen should be a great support unit for a lurker/ling strategy vs M&M and mixed terran. And at that stage, mid-late building a queen shouldnt strain economy to much. I understand that it would take more micro skills than it is worth for many players, but im sure you could just train until it works as it supposed to. A lurkerpush would work just like usual, just finish off with an ensnare to make those marines runaway at a slower rate.
I understand that it isnt easy to pull off routinely, but when it hits it should really improve the push, maybe killing as much as twice the number of marines? Maybe letting a few more lings suvive to rush the tanks?
Once again, if I come across as obnoxious or so, its because of lack of vocabulary and understanding of the english language and nothing else. It is not my intention.
|
On December 11 2009 03:55 s031720 wrote:
A a bynote; I guess you could fly the CC over his base to psych him and having him kill his own CC my god. you're right!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
