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I don't want to post this in the strategy forum since I'm pretty sure it's going to get closed if I don't post replays of this working.
Anyway, if you think about the spell Spawn Broodling the first thing to come in mind is an overpriced spell that has a minimal effect on the field of battle. It costs 150 energy, which means it's going to take ages for the queen to cast it again. Also, it's hard to cast as you have cast with each queen individually.
Against Terran bio Broodling only works as a bad tank repellent and the queen usually dies when it tries to actually cast the spell. Against Protoss you have mutas to do the Templar sniping and Broodling doesn't work against both Archon and Reaver.
All in all Broodling is a horrible spell and that's pretty much it. This is what I have come to believe UNTIL NOW.
If you take a look at Broodling you notice that it has an energy cost of 150. Irradiate kills almost every unit Zerg with just 75 energy, so naturally Broodling is a horrible spell when compared to Irradiate. However, when thinking like this the casters themselves are not taken into consideration. Queen costs 100/100 while Vessel costs 100/225. This means that in a sense Broodling is not such a costy spell as it seems.
Now, one thing I've noticed about Terran metal is that the Terran either aims for a timing push or they want to reach a critical mass via upgrades and tank goliath combination. The games tend to be Terran turtling and massing, quite similar to Flash's TvP, really.
Now, in this situation Broodling has a few things going on for it.
1. There is very little early game threat other than vulture harass, which means that you can mass some queens and wait for their energy to charge. You also get the queens early, and they're by the tech tree, so that you can use them for the whole duration of the game.
2. Terran units are very expensive, more expensive than Protoss units in a sense. A tank is 150/100 while a Goliaths is 100/50. This means that after at least the second Broodling attack queens have paid themselves back and have postponed the critical mass point of Terran.
3. Hard to get rid of Parasite. You need Parasite to clone your queens. This time Terran doesn't have medics to cure the infestation.
4. Broodling is a siege spell. You notice that usually Terran doesn't move out until he has a critical mass and just sits with his tanks sieged and Goliaths on hold position at his nat or a chokepoint. Broodling has a slightly longer range that the Goliath, so the queen shouldn't get itself killed.
5. Queens work like Science vessels. Think about it, if Terran has 10 science vessels, the Zerg is pretty deep in the mud. Now, if Zerg has 20 queens wouldn't the Terran be in equal trouble? The difference is, that Terran has limited ways to kill queens. Mass wraiths? It gets killed by ensnare. Irradiate comes to mind as a soft counter, but it's hard to irradiate faraway moving objects and the Terran will not have many vessels due to using gas on Goliaths and Tanks. This also means that the longer the game lasts the more effect mass Broodling will have.
6. Doesn't compete with mass hydra and is more cost-effective than mutalisks. Against metal Zerg needs minerals more than gas. Mass hydra only takes so much gas, which means you can choose between the Mutalisk, which becomes a waste of resources later on, and the Queen, which becomes a great investment with time.
Anyway, what I really want to hear is your opinion. Also, maybe replays of you using Broodling against metal.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Firefist actually used Broodlings in the Go.Go series, against 2 tanks. It allowed Firefist to clean up gogo's goliaths pretty quick using hydras.
Broodlings in bio seem like a pretty bad idea honestly, but against the metal builds 2-3 queens sniping tanks can help alot so it can work (mech army with no Goliaths is pretty shit). I would love to say more on this topic but Firefist was the only one who actually did it on live tv, so Im kinda lost.
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Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently
oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb
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I wanna see some replays of this being used effectively. 
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On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb
+ Show Spoiler +
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What I wonder is, why aren't queens used to snipe Templar instead of mutas? Goliath have a range of 8 upgraded whereas dragoons only have an upgraded range of 6. And since queens cost the same amount as mutas, wouldn't they be more cost effective?
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On January 10 2009 23:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb + Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +...You could have saved me a lot of time if you didn't spoiler that bit.
I watched it excitedly and then was very disappointed.
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On January 11 2009 00:08 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
What I wonder is, why aren't queens used to snipe Templar instead of mutas? Goliath have a range of 8 upgraded whereas dragoons only have an upgraded range of 6. And since queens cost the same amount as mutas, wouldn't they be more cost effective?
I feel is more of a timing sense than the cost effectiveness. In the early parts of the game, you need all the resources to make an army to repel his forces and expand. If you are going to get queens that early just to conserve mana till the later part of the game, you are forgoing the resources for your army which could be crucial against timing attacks or +1 zeal attack. Therefore getting mutas would be a better choice.
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I should try this next time I play zvt vs some noob ^_^
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 10 2009 23:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb + Show Spoiler +
D: too late
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On January 11 2009 00:41 dragoonkf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2009 00:08 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
What I wonder is, why aren't queens used to snipe Templar instead of mutas? Goliath have a range of 8 upgraded whereas dragoons only have an upgraded range of 6. And since queens cost the same amount as mutas, wouldn't they be more cost effective? I feel is more of a timing sense than the cost effectiveness. In the early parts of the game, you need all the resources to make an army to repel his forces and expand. If you are going to get queens that early just to conserve mana till the later part of the game, you are forgoing the resources for your army which could be crucial against timing attacks or +1 zeal attack. Therefore getting mutas would be a better choice.
Well, I'm talking more about using queens in a 5-6 hatch neosauron hydra build, which seems to be the new standard for zerg play. It is relatively easy to defend without mutas and just use hydra lurker scourge. However I've seen Jaedong go mutas with this build purely for picking off Templar plenty of times. So I'm just wondering if queens are better for this purpose.
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On January 11 2009 00:11 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +...You could have saved me a lot of time if you didn't spoiler that bit.
I watched it excitedly and then was very disappointed.
+ Show Spoiler + lol your comment made me laugh
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On January 11 2009 00:52 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2009 00:41 dragoonkf wrote:On January 11 2009 00:08 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
What I wonder is, why aren't queens used to snipe Templar instead of mutas? Goliath have a range of 8 upgraded whereas dragoons only have an upgraded range of 6. And since queens cost the same amount as mutas, wouldn't they be more cost effective? I feel is more of a timing sense than the cost effectiveness. In the early parts of the game, you need all the resources to make an army to repel his forces and expand. If you are going to get queens that early just to conserve mana till the later part of the game, you are forgoing the resources for your army which could be crucial against timing attacks or +1 zeal attack. Therefore getting mutas would be a better choice. Well, I'm talking more about using queens in a 5-6 hatch neosauron hydra build, which seems to be the new standard for zerg play. It is relatively easy to defend without mutas and just use hydra lurker scourge. However I've seen Jaedong go mutas with this build purely for picking off Templar plenty of times. So I'm just wondering if queens are better for this purpose.
Because the muta timing just catches the protosses off guard, being unable to defend their templars, but for queens, all they need to do is get shuttles and load the templars in it to prevent them getting brooded. Of course they have to spent extra resources on the shuttle and 2 scourge would just clear them as easily as the queens would have. To be honest, I'm on the fence on this broodling strategy for both ZvP and ZvT (mech). It really does seem viable especially on the lower levels like Ds and Cs.
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On January 11 2009 00:11 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2009 23:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On January 10 2009 23:37 MrHoon wrote:On January 10 2009 23:35 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Hoejja used it vs hwasin recently oh wow guess there is a reason to watch that now, brb + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +...You could have saved me a lot of time if you didn't spoiler that bit.
I watched it excitedly and then was very disappointed.
Haha sry
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I'm going to work now. When I come back, I want to see some replays with this strategy used, or I will be very disappointed.
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Belgium9947 Posts
A C+ korean zerg just used this against me. I don't think its viable tbh. His queens came out useful though (infested 3 CCs lol). But I won in the end
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150 energy takes forever to get. If the Terran kindly obliges you by waiting for his push until you have energy, then you're good, but usually they push out whether you're ready or not. Then because you've spent your money on queens rather than units, your army gets crushed while you're waiting for energy. The difference between 75 and 150 energy is night and day, not to mention that science vessels also allow you to see those pesky lurker. Also, they are a gas sink, generally allowing you to use the extra resource you have to devestating effect.
As far as Queen vs Muta for sniping templar, Muta is a much stronger choice overall. While Queens may arguably better for the sole purpose of sniping templar, they don't have the other advantages of mutalisks. For one, mutalisks are a threat anywhere on the map, meaning Protoss now has to spend more money for cannons at his expo to prevent his probes from getting picked off. He has to worry about always having anti air around his army, the mutas generally do a lot of damage to his ground forces and they can attack reavers.
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On January 11 2009 02:40 GeneralStan wrote:
150 energy takes forever to get. If the Terran kindly obliges you by waiting for his push until you have energy, then you're good, but usually they push out whether you're ready or not. Then because you've spent your money on queens rather than units, your army gets crushed while you're waiting for energy. The difference between 75 and 150 energy is night and day, not to mention that science vessels also allow you to see those pesky lurker. Also, they are a gas sink, generally allowing you to use the extra resource you have to devestating effect.
As far as Queen vs Muta for sniping templar, Muta is a much stronger choice overall. While Queens may arguably better for the sole purpose of sniping templar, they don't have the other advantages of mutalisks. For one, mutalisks are a threat anywhere on the map, meaning Protoss now has to spend more money for cannons at his expo to prevent his probes from getting picked off. He has to worry about always having anti air around his army, the mutas generally do a lot of damage to his ground forces and they can attack reavers.
Making a few 100/100 queens does not preclude a 5 base zerg from making mutalisks
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More apm-> sure why the fuck not queens!
macro first
As chill put, "lots of kids can do cute shit but no macro =["
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EPT
