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Earlier I made a desert version of blood bath, based on feedback and testing I have made a new version that is all around better.
download
download obs
Like the earlier version its goals were to stay true to blood bath while being more positionally and racially balanced. I tried to stay true to the spirit of blood bath by not really creating or destroying features, but instead taking a feature that was in one position and putting it in all four. As a protoss player I think they are slightly overpowered so features were chosen to aide terran and zerg when possible.
Feature/difference form orig bb list:
-Closer, balanced and symmetrical mineral/gas placement.
-Gas is equally harassable in all positions.
-Tanks can range about half of adjacent bridges from protected area.
-Workers can not see side 3 minerals across any of the gaps.
-All positions have minerals near the bridge (useful for zerg getting mins+choke control with 1 hatchery).
-All positions have an equally wide secondary "choke" point (similar to the original's top right spot). Can be extended further with spawning pool or supply depot
-Room behind all starting minerals
-Center is in the exact center
-All positions wallable with 2 depots and a barracks and indicators to make it clear how (marines all pop in safe zone too).
Overall this map is nothing special, it is just blood bath, but it is the only version I know of that fixes all of the issues above. I hope that if you like blood bath you will try it out and leave feedback or suggestions.
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gas is not balanced, go on broodwarmaps.net and read the article about "gas issue"
purp and teal's gas mines slower, gas must always be directly on the left or directly above CCs or else timings are thrown off
copy mineral positions from moderner promaps if possible to also prevent imbalances there due to funky pathing
btw i was working on a pack of many different versions of bloodbath for the fun of it, if you're interested we could pool our efforts?
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Wow, this looks like a version of blood bath that I want to play sometime - you fixed a lot of balance issues and stuff. In my stupidity, main problem is that although you made the gas equally harrassable - some positions will mine slower gas because of that. The games are set to be short though so it shouldn't really have a big impact.
Thanks for this teacher flag!
edit: ninja'd by anotak
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Calgary26003 Posts
Wow, I read the fixes and looked over the map, it looks really good.
Thanks.
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hey, the gas is actually more balanced than you would think, i was aware of the gas issue when making it, check the bb oasis thread for more info as it is the same. i can describe more later if needed but about to game.
also anotak, i tried to look at pro maps to copy, but none really had them on a corner like i wanted, so i pretty much had to try out different configs and test for stupid pathing with all three races.
i can help you find more bb versions for your pool of bbs also.
thanks for your comments anotak, superior wolf, and chill, hope you enjoy the map, but dont play it too much like i do 
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Doesn't original BB prevent tanks from positioning behind the secondary mineral patches? (I'm looking at 6, errr, 5:30).
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wouldn't an island BB be kinda fun
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Some spots on BB have the minerals on sides placed so it is difficult to get close to the edge, but all minerals can be hit by tanks from across the gaps as far as I know. It varies on whether or not you can storm across the caps. In this version you can storm across the horizontal (but not vertical) gaps but you will need a flying unit to get vision (templar can storm farther than they can see). It might be a good setup to position the minerals so they block you from getting close to the edge instead, I tried a little but couldn't find a way that I liked. I may try some more later, also if you find a good positioning let me know.
More on the gas issue. Basically none of the spots are optimal for 3 workers. But with proper building placement they are all very close in mining rate with 3. The placement is for bottom right a depot/pool/core right under the gas. And for top right a pylon below and to the right of nexus (zerg and terran don't need anything). See oasis version for exact placement.
Here is measured efficiency from oasis version:
3 workers on gas for 10 mins
gas protoss terran zerg
top left 2768 2880 2880
top right 2736** 2768*** 2768
bottom right 2768* 2768* 2688*
bottom left 2768 2784 2784
*with 2x3 building under geyser (always do this, same as original bb)
**with a comsat center in place mining was much worse (2480), use 4 scv if you have comsat
***with pylon built where indicated by 2x2 box (worse without)
Note with 4 on gas at any spot it is 3072
So gas is pretty equal, and it was lucky that it worked out this way, but there is 1 major flaw, and that is for top right once terran gets a comsat. Then you really need 4 scvs to be efficient. But at least this 4 will be more efficient than 3 at any other spot, so other spots might want 4 eventually anyways. This is unfortunate but I can't put them all on left or top spot because in many games the position of gas is very vital to game play which is more important than slight differences in efficiency.
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On August 01 2008 11:15 anotak wrote:btw i was working on a pack of many different versions of bloodbath for the fun of it, if you're interested we could pool our efforts?
here is zip of all versions i had in my download folder: http://golfscript.com/temp/bbpack.zip
hope that helps
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United States17042 Posts
The map looks pretty good, aside from the gas issues the first two responses listed. Thanks
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On August 01 2008 11:15 anotak wrote:
gas is not balanced, go on broodwarmaps.net and read the article about "gas issue"
purp and teal's gas mines slower, gas must always be directly on the left or directly above CCs or else timings are thrown off
yea, but usually gas vulnerability takes precedence over gas mining equality since they are, for all intensive purposes, pretty similar in terms of mining rate iirc. I mean if at all possible yes, mining speed normalized is great, but exposure seems to be more important overall? (from what I've seen from recent pro maps)
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On August 05 2008 05:25 thedeadhaji wrote:
yea, but usually gas vulnerability takes precedence over gas mining equality since they are, for all intensive purposes, pretty similar in terms of mining rate iirc. I mean if at all possible yes, mining speed normalized is great, but exposure seems to be more important overall? (from what I've seen from recent pro maps)
it really depends... they're not that similar at all, gas in the wrong places can throw off timings pretty bad, especially if we're talking about the gas in the main
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I think exposure is very important, but the gases are fairly balanced. The worst gas mining rate on this map (zerg in bottom right) is 6.7% worse than the best (zerg/terran in top left). Where if you look at something not present on this map like gas below main versus gas above main, it is 14.3% worse.
So 6.7% slower gas from worst to best isn't major. But if it were major then therefore it would be worth it to put a 4th worker on gas. However even in the worst position 4 on gas would mine 6.3% faster than 3 at the best position, so therefore they should use 4 on gas too, in which case it would be equal.
This was the first gas configuration I tried out, it was just pure luck that they worked out this balanced. However in an earlier version I had changed the terrain in the top left and top right to make it so you could not move there, so it is just like bottom right and bottom left. This change, even though distant, affected gas pathing, making them pretty bad at top left and top right. I didn't realize it for along time too because I had done testing before that change and never expected something like that to have any effect.
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I don't like that fact how terran can hide too many buildings behind/around minerals. It makes it really hard to harass terran at all. At most there should be 1 spot for the academy or whatever, hiding depots behind too is just unstoppable.
PS- On the top spots terran can hide 3 depots and on the bottom its 2.
I like the idea of uber symmetry, but at the cost of building space and the second wider 'choke' shortened it may not be all that much better. Is there anyway that you can squash the horizontal space squares?
Switch back to the solar array rocks in the middle (or something that is above ground) it works better aesthetically and strategically.
People talking about the gas issue; it is unavoidable in order to make the geysers equally harassable. It can be slightly evened out by not putting the geyser directly left or above the SL in order to make the geyser most efficient with 4 workers instead of 3.
edit- after reading through the thread I could see that this was mostly addressed already.
Does the 'Antrax Edge' work for geyser mining speeds?
Also, To prevent the long range storm can terran use buildings to block the casting spot?
PS- I don't know if these are exactly the same but these are the safe marine walls in my bb 1.36
shameless plug: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=57264
PPS- Is that intended terrain glitchery for walls around the ramps and on some of the edges of space (mostly left side gaps)?
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Pics of issues:
Image size cropped down for (actual size)
2 hiding
2 hiding
Easy Academy wall (blocks rines/lings)
Easy Academy wall (blocks rines/lings)
3 hiding
3 hiding (woops forgot to shrink)
The academy thing isn't that big of an issue, but you can't do it for the other bases (that I saw anyways)
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Hey spor
On August 06 2008 08:21 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I don't like that fact how terran can hide too many buildings behind/around minerals. It makes it really hard to harass terran at all. At most there should be 1 spot for the academy or whatever, hiding depots behind too is just unstoppable.
PS- On the top spots terran can hide 3 depots and on the bottom its 2.
Hmm I did not really consider balance implications of being able to fit more buildings behind the minerals. Are you saying that it makes it hard to harass terran (as zerg or protoss) because you cannot pick of the scv making the buildings if it is in a protected area? Also if you do this scvs will probably get stuck, making it not too good. I'll think about this more, mainly it concerns me for tvz which I am no expert at.
On August 06 2008 08:21 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I like the idea of uber symmetry, but at the cost of building space and the second wider 'choke' shortened it may not be all that much better. Is there anyway that you can squash the horizontal space squares?
By shortened do you mean the second choke is too narrow? Compared to original blood bath it is more wide than top right and bottom left but less wide than the other two spots. It could easily be widened (or shortened) if needed but widening it would only make it worse for tvp which I feel is pretty brutal already.
On August 06 2008 08:21 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Switch back to the solar array rocks in the middle (or something that is above ground) it works better aesthetically and strategically.
How is that doodad in the center any different strategically? They both block the same amount of space. The reason for this change from the original was because units tended to get stuck in there and in general act stupid which I found annoying. It is more ugly though...
On August 06 2008 08:21 CharlieMurphy wrote:Does the 'Antrax Edge' work for geyser mining speeds?
I think that article is about more efficient mineral mining by having 2 groups of minerals on opposite sides of the command center so scvs only wander between their group of 4. Gas collectors always stay on their own respected refinery so I don't think it has anything to do with gas. Was there more to that article than the split minerals?
On August 06 2008 08:21 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Also, To prevent the long range storm can terran use buildings to block the casting spot?
You can just cast storm on the building.
On August 06 2008 08:21 CharlieMurphy wrote:
PPS- Is that intended terrain glitchery for walls around the ramps and on some of the edges of space (mostly left side gaps)?
I think there are some small graphical anomalies caused by a few things, mainly ensuring proper walling. If you spot one with no purpose let me know. Also walling is pretty much same as on your map, should be pretty easy to figure out using dark spots to place buildings.
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Vatican City State491 Posts
Blood bath, that allows to make a wallin is not bloodbath.
How do you win PvT, vs a terran building a wallin?
"Easy Academy wall (blocks rines/lings)" is even worse; but this perhaps could be made at some spots of original blood bath (top right comes to mind).
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Closed, its funny how you and many other people fail to realize that you can BSS almsot every spot on original bloodbath to wall except bottom right. The only wall changes are to ensure that when you do this the marine pops out behind that wall.
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Yea, main issue is ZvT and PvT. Not just harassing builder SCV but just harassing the building in general.
The guard rines have little distance if any to move to cover multiple areas early on. Not only that but like you said units can get stuck or hide behind those areas.
As well as SCV being able to repair johnny-on-the-spot because they are right there.
Oh and the depots are 'walled off' more as well leaving less of them as a target (so you can't wrap it with lings or zeals).
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On August 06 2008 13:38 closed wrote:
Blood bath, that allows to make a wallin is not bloodbath.
How do you win PvT, vs a terran building a wallin?
The original blood bath is not blood bath then. Like charlie said, 3/4 spots can on original, and 4th spot can too but requires 3 depots. Walling is a good strat versus protoss but it is by no means unstoppable and should not be used every time. The problem with walling if they know you will do it is they can scout just the wall spots, thus scouting you just about as fast as they would scout their first spot normally. Then you can do some or all of the above: harass with 2-3 probes, steal gas, pylon block (then cancel, delay depot just enough for first zealot to pick off scv making depot), get dragoons way before tanks, or do some other tech rush.
"Easy Academy wall (blocks rines/lings)" is even worse; but this perhaps could be made at some spots of original blood bath (top right comes to mind).
Supply depot, evolution chamber, etc also work to narrow second choke. This worked in top right and bottom left of orig I think. This is a good thing though because:
PvT, helps terran, good because protoss especially early game is imbalance.
ZvT, helps both, helps stop initial lings, but helps zerg need fewer sunkens later.
PvZ, helps zerg, need fewer sunkens if they want a hatch near side 3 minerals.
And in my opinion P>=Z, P>=T, T>Z.
On August 06 2008 14:36 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Yea, main issue is ZvT and PvT. Not just harassing builder SCV but just harassing the building in general.
The guard rines have little distance if any to move to cover multiple areas early on. Not only that but like you said units can get stuck or hide behind those areas.
As well as SCV being able to repair johnny-on-the-spot because they are right there.
Oh and the depots are 'walled off' more as well leaving less of them as a target (so you can't wrap it with lings or zeals).
Alright I'll fix this for 2.14 because I guess it does help terran TvZ which is already most the imbalanced match up.
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