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Active: 2071 users

okay so i finished my dumb graph, double check?!

Blogs > Raithed
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1 2 Next All
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
June 05 2008 02:37 GMT
#1
[image loading]

this is the graph and this is the function: y = (x^2-1)/x^3

it asks for:

1. x-int:
2. y-int:
3. vertical asymp:
4. horiz. asymp:
5. relative extrema:
6. points of inflection:
---

1. there are two x-int, this case is (-1,0) and (1,0) since it crosses the x-axis.
2. it has no y-intercept because it doesnt cross y at all.
3. vertical asymptote is only x=0. however, when x=1, the result is a 0, but that doesnt matter right?
4. horizontal asymptote is y=0 as that if the degree of denominator > degree of numerator = y=0, from a rule.
5. relative extrema, i take the derivative of y = (x^2-1)/(x^3) and used the quotient rule which gave me (-x^4-3x^2)/(x^6) and i set this equal to 0. so i know one point is x=0, i think thats it?
6. points of inflection, i took the first y' then took the derivative of that so i get y'' = (2x^9 + 12x^7)/x^12, however, this is as far as i got. basically ill start putting values into 0 to check? and do i have to do an interval or it could be -infin to +infin?

thanks for looking again. >______< and yes paper, i do read my book, but the examples arent clear so i ask ydg, micro, etc.

HotZhot
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Colombia677 Posts
June 05 2008 02:44 GMT
#2
homework?
I only smile in the darK [] sAviOr//JaeDong Fan 4 Ever ~ CJ Entusman # 7
Wizard
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Poland5055 Posts
June 05 2008 02:53 GMT
#3
teamliquid: raithed's homework news
sAviOr[gm] ~ want to watch good replays? read my blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/wizard
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
June 05 2008 03:03 GMT
#4
well i did it, dunno if its correct. yes its hw.
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
June 05 2008 03:06 GMT
#5
That graph can't be labeled right can it.

And when x=1, y=0, that has nothing to do with asymptote, that's just x intercept.

What do you mean by do an interval for points of inflection, since you are just setting the second derivative to zero, you are going to get discrete values if any shows. If the question asks for points of inflection, or relative extrema or whatnot, unless specified it will be from neg inf to inf.
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
June 05 2008 03:10 GMT
#6
the graph is right minus the min/max arrows, i graphed it using a graphing calculator, it asks for x-int and i gave it the point (1,0) as one of the x-intercepts. so for the inflection point i can just set it to 0?
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
June 05 2008 03:18 GMT
#7
1.yes
2.yes
3.yes
4.yes, it's easy to check in the figure that those are the only asymptotes
5.the derivative=(3-x^2)/x^4 which has zeroes when x^2=3 <=> x=+-sqrt(3) x=0 is not a zero since the function is not defined there.
6.second derivative=2(x^2-6)/x^5 has zeroes when x=+-sqrt(6), so these are your points of inflexion

since your function is not defined in x=0 you can assume x=/=0 and divide bt x'es in your expressions.
Enter a Uh
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
June 05 2008 03:38 GMT
#8
Yeah, I was just talking about the arrows. Anyway like jtan wrote, you just set the second derivative to zero. Same applies for first derivative and extremas, which jtan also worked out for you.

You are allowed to actually graph it out via calculator? I thought most classes would have you plot it by hand as a part of the question heh.
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
June 05 2008 03:40 GMT
#9
so question about number 5, if its not defined does it even have a relative extrema?
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 03:50:26
June 05 2008 03:44 GMT
#10
Well, like you said, it is an asymptote at 0, so that by default cannot be a relative extrema. A relative extrema would be a defined value.

EDIT - Actually, I looked at the graph again since the numbers ticked something off, what did you plot there? That graph itself looks wrong at that.

EDIT - Oh, it can be right, what did you set the parameters for the windows to be?
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
June 05 2008 03:49 GMT
#11
what numbers are you talking about? you mean how i plotted it and got it? plotted the function of y, then zero to get the intercepts.

okay, so i guess number 5 is done. but how did jitan get (3-x^2)/x^4? and same goes for number 6 with the derivative of 2(x^2-6)/x^5?
jgad
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada899 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 03:59:05
June 05 2008 03:51 GMT
#12
On June 05 2008 12:18 jtan wrote:
1.yes
2.yes
3.yes
4.yes, it's easy to check in the figure that those are the only asymptotes
5.the derivative=(3-x^2)/x^4 which has zeroes when x^2=3 <=> x=+-sqrt(3) x=0 is not a zero since the function is not defined there.
6.second derivative=2(x^2-6)/x^5 has zeroes when x=+-sqrt(6), so these are your points of inflexion

since your function is not defined in x=0 you can assume x=/=0 and divide bt x'es in your expressions.


edit : Actually, nevermind - yes this all correct. The plot should look like this, though : the local max/min are much more apparent when it's plotted properly :

[image loading]
콩까지마
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 03:57:58
June 05 2008 03:52 GMT
#13
What are the parameters you set for windows? Since the parts shown for x looks to be very small.

As for those functions, factor the derivatives you came up with, he didn't bother putting the parts factored out where x=0 since it doesn't matter there.

Plot w/ x from -10~10.

[image loading]
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 03:58:54
June 05 2008 03:57 GMT
#14
set it to decimal. and he factored?

for number 5, y' = (-x^4-3x^2)/(x^6) --> (3-x^2)/x^4 which is what he got, how?

On June 05 2008 12:51 jgad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2008 12:18 jtan wrote:
1.yes
2.yes
3.yes
4.yes, it's easy to check in the figure that those are the only asymptotes
5.the derivative=(3-x^2)/x^4 which has zeroes when x^2=3 <=> x=+-sqrt(3) x=0 is not a zero since the function is not defined there.
6.second derivative=2(x^2-6)/x^5 has zeroes when x=+-sqrt(6), so these are your points of inflexion

since your function is not defined in x=0 you can assume x=/=0 and divide bt x'es in your expressions.


Actually, nevermind - yes this all correct. The plot should look like this, though : the local max/min are much more apparent when it's plotted properly :

but its a rule though, isnt it?

http://cnx.org/content/m13606/latest/

EDIT - it crosses so there's 2 x-int, what are you getting at, i dont understand.
Day[9]
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
United States7366 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 04:01:46
June 05 2008 04:00 GMT
#15
Whenever I encounter some little hitch, or some of my orbs get out of orbit, nothing pleases me so much as to make the crooked straight and crush down uneven places. www.day9.tv
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 04:06:37
June 05 2008 04:04 GMT
#16
Look at jgad's graph, better than mine.

And you missed a negative time negative for your first derivative then, I got the same thing as he. Also yours simply can't be right since we'd get imaginary value for local max/min, where the graph clearly indicates some.

jgad was talking about lim x-> (+/-)inf = 0, probably misread the y=0 to be x=0.
jgad
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada899 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 04:20:08
June 05 2008 04:19 GMT
#17
[but its a rule though, isnt it?



Yeah, it's a rule, but throwing rules at a math problem, imo, isn't really the way to learn. Consider how much more interesting it is to look at something like this (forgive my crude scribbles) :

[image loading]


if you factor out the equation you get 1/x - 1/x^3, so you can say that for all values where x>>1 the graph should basically do the same as 1/x all the way out to infinity. It's an easy step and it makes it clear why the rule works. I think the most important thing to take away from a math class isn't so much the ability to remember all the rules to solve the problems they'll give you, but to study the rules and learn why they work - then when you go on to be a mathematical career person, you have a well-worked toolbox that you know inside and out -- then you can use rules to make your job easier and more efficient, but not when you're learning.

The other issue is that, in real life, when you finally decide to go out and flex your mathematical muscle to get something done, you'll probably find that the equations you need for the real world are often brutal, intractable beasts which your rules will be useless against. Then you have to fall back on your core skills to hack out the problem the old-fashioned way. If all you have is a bag of tricks - a few easy rules to beat down docile problems, then you've sort of got a mathematician that's built like a house of cards.
콩까지마
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 04:29:09
June 05 2008 04:24 GMT
#18
okay the derivative of #5; ( -x^4 + 3x^2 ) / x^6 i see where he got it from, stupid me.
second derivative of #6;

y = (x^2 - 1) / (x^3)
y' = (-x^4 + 3x^2) / (x^6)
y" = (8x^9 - 12x^7) / x^12 --> 2(x^2-6)/x^5 did jitan factor again? because i cant figure it out.

Ecael, plotting the graph on the calculator, going at -10,10, 2nd calc>zero, im still getting the same results. isnt that how you find the x-int?

EDIT - jgad, so im confused, the x-int is wrong?
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 04:57:32
June 05 2008 04:47 GMT
#19
I wasn't talking about the x intercept, nor was jgad, probably. I was talking about how your graph on the OP was difficult to see the local extrema and the inflection point. jgad probably thought the same, since we both posted graphs that emphasized that little change of inflection and the extrema.

EDIT - I check that result, Raithed, you made some mistake somewhere with that second derivative. I also got 2(x^2-6)(x^-5).

Odd, your answer in the OP worked fine after we account for the negative.
jgad
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada899 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-05 04:55:11
June 05 2008 04:51 GMT
#20
^ yes. In fact, before looking at the equation, I was a bit confused at first and thought he'd messed the horizontal asymptote just from looking at his graph, which looks to have two (at y=±1), though it doesn't.
콩까지마
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