Man, I thought you would get that reference.
Euthanasia; Your Opinion? - Page 2
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Man, I thought you would get that reference. | ||
QuanticHawk
United States32026 Posts
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drift0ut
United Kingdom691 Posts
edit: Constantine? i give up | ||
gwho
United States632 Posts
we can reach a conclusion for or against it, but it is entirely another issue whethe it should be a uniform law accross the land. it goes into philosophy of governing at that point. luckily we have a document that clears up a lot of stuff. The constitution is all for individual liberties and keeping the government from becoming large and obtrussive to individual liberties. is suicide a crime? helping another that wishes to commit suicide who cannot do it themselves, or are unconscious. they are not easy decisions by any means. and of course legalizing it could lead to abuses and unintended outcomes, like humans always do with everything. so i believe there needs to be a more pragmatic approach and decision that considers all of the potential abuses. (like how the some agree with the death penalty in principle, but because so many rich ppl are getting away while mostly black ppl are getting the axe, are now opposed to the death penalty). the constitution holds individual liberty at the highest and if it goes to a governmental level it, reserves that decision for the states, not the federal government. legal issue very much cleared up. moral issue: any human being shouldn't be so readily willing to give someone the axe, no matter how muhc they want it. i mean, this is more of a basic and intuitive thing, i'm not saying anything too controvorsial here. yet the problem remains. should it be legal? is suicide illegal? will they lock up someone who is trying to kill themselves as commiting a crime? could those people could talk to the suicide hotline too. should the doctors help with it? should the person or family decide and do it themselves? if the person wants assisted suicide, is the doctor the only person they can ask??? (comon seriously). why place the burden comepltely on the doctor? domains of right: it is first and foremost the patient/individual's decision. then maybe it might go to family before the doctor. i don't get why the fixation must be held on the doctor's decision. | ||
HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
There is such a fine line between self-control and self-abandon, and basically any space past self-control is dangerous. Euthanasia for clearly proven, terminally dying people who are experiencing great agony is impossible to argue against; but I personally think it would need to be executed only after a trial in front of a jury of doctors and legal men. You can't just have throwaway euthanasia or you will have murder on your hands. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
Call me weak, but I would rather have my life ended than live the remainder of it in misery, pain, suffering. The only thing keeping me going was knowing that it was going to end. I can sympathize with the people who have it worse than I had it, and theirs is for the rest of their life. So you'd be dead if euthanasia was legal? Doesn't that make you think even a little? You'd miss TSL for Pete sakes! [EDIT: BTW, I wouldn't call it weak, but I would call it selfish] There's a lot of times in my life when I wish I could just press a button, and end it. But I know that I'm glad I'm alive today. Maybe I won't be tomorrow, but that's life. There are a lot of problems with euthanasia, and I'll bring up the first two that you seem to be completely missing: 1: You're asking a someone to commit murder. Even if it's a mercy killing, the doctor still has to do it, and still has to live with the fact that he's (or she's) killed someone (in a profession he chose because he wanted to save lives). That's not a nice thing to ask people to do. 2: You would have to argue that you're of sound mind and sound body to request such a killing. This alone contradicts the whole idea of a mercy killing. If you're not in a stable state of mind, is it really okay to request death, when later you might not be? The only solution to this is to state ahead of time (ie: when you are of sound mind and sound body), that if you should ever befall some terrible illness, you should be killed. Perhaps that's reasonable. I will say, that if someone has a terminal illness, and it's guaranteed the last of their days will be spent in horrific suffering, they should have the right to choose death based on my thoughts in point two. But you've still got the moral issues of forcing doctors to kill people, and the possibility of creating a profession specific to euthanasia so that real doctors don't. | ||
ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
On May 21 2008 05:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: So you'd be dead if euthanasia was legal? Doesn't that make you think even a little? You'd miss TSL for Pete sakes! [EDIT: BTW, I wouldn't call it weak, but I would call it selfish] There's a lot of times in my life when I wish I could just press a button, and end it. But I know that I'm glad I'm alive today. Maybe I won't be tomorrow, but that's life. No, sorry my post was ambiguous. "The only thing keeping me going was knowing that it was going to end." "It" was referring to the suffering. There was hope that one day the suffering was going to end, which is why i didnt give up. hopefully, that clears it up - im not suicidal/depressed heh. Edit - i should edit my opening post so i dont convey the wrong message | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 21 2008 05:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: 1: You're asking a someone to commit murder. Even if it's a mercy killing, the doctor still has to do it, and still has to live with the fact that he's (or she's) killed someone (in a profession he chose because he wanted to save lives). That's not a nice thing to ask people to do. Lawful and well-intentioned euthanasia is not murder in any sense of the word. 2: You would have to argue that you're of sound mind and sound body to request such a killing. This alone contradicts the whole idea of a mercy killing. If you're not in a stable state of mind, is it really okay to request death, when later you might not be? The only solution to this is to state ahead of time (ie: when you are of sound mind and sound body), that if you should ever befall some terrible illness, you should be killed. Perhaps that's reasonable. That made no sense. But you've still got the moral issues of forcing doctors to kill people, and the possibility of creating a profession specific to euthanasia so that real doctors don't. In the one state where it is legal in my country, no doctor is forced to perform euthanasia. | ||
BackHo
New Zealand400 Posts
I believe that suicide is a fundamental human right. We humans exist as beings without our consent, at least not until we are capable of being aware of our own existence. There are no objective grounds upon which we have a duty to continue living. Suicide is not punishable as a criminal act in most jurisdictions. Attempted suicides generally fall under involuntary institutionalisation laws. Assisted suicide, however, remains illegal - the general rationale being that there are insufficient safeguards surrounding potential exploitation of the rule of law. But consider this: If someone wants to end their life bad enough, or if someone else wants to end that one person's life bad enough - they will find a way to do it. This denies the ideal of absolute justice, and legislation on the issue thus becomes a balancing act. To take two examples: 1. Whether one is pro-choice or pro-life in the abortion debate - it can be generally accepted that post conception life has the potential to form. If the law takes the position to ban abortion completely, the solution is to try and shape society so that unplanned pregnancies occur less. Alternatively, it can allow abortions to attempt to minimise the immediate and present harm that would otherwise be caused. 2. Should the age of consent for sex be at 16, the law can either allow the introduction of contraception to minors or ban access altogether. The former position attempts to minimise harm whilst the latter depends on society's competence in being able to maintain abstinence. The theory of reality states that you can either acknowledge reality and use it to your [/society's] benefit, or it will automatically work against you [/society]. Progressive moral theory may begin with accepting reality with a view of working towards idealism, and libertarianism would perhaps be at the other end of the spectrum - believing that the ideal will shape the reality. Regardless of the method of implementation - after accepting that death is a fundamental human right and the theory of reality is addressed - the question then becomes whether anyone else has the right to take someone else's life? The answer must be yes, if consent is given. The exception is in a situation where the sacrificing of one life is required to save two or more. Ceteris paribus, then that one person's consent is irrelevant - as the value of two lives outweighs the life of one. + Show Spoiler + Rodney Hide (ACT NZ): We are hearing tonight Parliament at its best, because we have a very fine bill put up by Mr Peter Brown. Whether one is for it or against it, Mr Brown¡¦s motives are honest and true. We have heard two very good speeches tonight against the bill. I want to speak in favour of Mr Brown¡¦s bill, as a matter of principle and as a matter of personal experience. The principle is this. I believe that we, not the State, do own our own body and our life. I believe that if we choose to we can end our life. It is obviously the most drastic decision that a person can take, but one can do that. I believe that it is an affront to deny people who want to end their life the dignity of ending it in a way that is humane. That is what our current law does. Of course we have to have a sharp line between suicide and murder, and this bill has that. That is why I support the bill. I ask members at least to send it to a select committee and hear what the people have to say. I want to raise a memory of a man whom many members knew¡XMartin Hames, who died last year on 8 August. If Mr Brown¡¦s bill had been the law, Martin Hames would still be with us, I am sure. He would not have needed to take his own life, as he did. He had Huntington¡¦s disease. He discovered in 1979 that his mother had it. He did not marry, because he had a 50 percent chance of getting it, and he was diagnosed with Huntington¡¦s disease. He had watched his mother die a terrible death¡Xa death where one loses one¡¦s mind and loses control, to the extent that one cannot swallow. Martin Hames loved life. He loved independence. He could not stand the thought of ending without the ability to swallow. Last year he prepared everything. He swallowed a whole lot of pills and he passed out. He had bought new pyjamas, and he had a note pinned to his chest saying ¡§Please do not resuscitate¡¨. The ambulance came, and they resuscitated him. He came to in hospital, and they said to Martin Hames that he had septicaemia in his legs and they wanted to take them off. He said: ¡§What would happen if you don¡¦t take my legs off?¡¨, and they said: ¡§You will die.¡¨ He said: ¡§Well, good, because I have Huntington¡¦s disease.¡¨ They gave him some pain relief and pushed him off to the side in Wellington Hospital, and he spent the day dying. I dreaded going to see Martin Hames and saying goodbye to a very special friend, but one of the greatest things I have ever done is seeing a man dying with dignity. He told me, when I went in there, and he told all his friends¡Xfrom Treasury, from Michael Cullen¡¦s office, people from across the political spectrum who had worked with him, and from the National Party¡Xthat he was having a good death. He used to call me ¡§Boss¡¨, and he said: ¡§I¡¦m having a good death, Boss, because I didn¡¦t think I¡¦d get the opportunity to say goodbye to all my friends.¡¨ He had that chance. We all went in there and, rather than feeling sad, I felt great to see a man who could face his death with such generosity and love of life and friends, and who had been dealt a cruel hand but was not complaining. Martin slipped away that night. He had written a great book called The Crisis in New Zealand Schools, and he was well on the way to having written a second book, on the Treaty of Waitangi , which would have benefited us all. But he never got to finish it. We do not know whether Martin could have lived for another 10 years, working and writing, because he had to take his own life before it was taken from him. Death with Dignity Bill - First Reading, Hansard, 30 July 2003 | ||
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