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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 05 2008 09:00 HamerD wrote: @ the op: the point is that most stupid people are tribal by nature. I think you could extend the OP's comments and say animals are "evil" by nature. Self preservation > all. Mada_Jiang, I hope you know that your parents are your parents by much more than faith. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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LosingID8
CA10828 Posts
On May 05 2008 09:54 Falcynn wrote: If there aren't any rules required to get into heaven...then why do people keep telling me that simply believing in Jesus isn't enough and that there are certain things I must do (the things generally depend on what form of Christianity they preach). If you already explained it then forgive me, I just like arguing  hopefully by this you meant believing that Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior, and that he died for your sins--not merely believing in the existence of Jesus. If people are telling you that believing in Jesus isn't enough to get into heaven, they aren't practicing Christianity properly. Ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
You can rape, murder, and even have premarital sex, and as long as you do it in Jesus' name, you get a free pass. And how can the matter be "lengthy"? You are saying right here that you need to believe in Jesus to get into heaven, which is obviously a rule. Obviously your religion has rules even if it makes you feel uncomfortable calling them that. | ||
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kekekekyle
Canada32 Posts
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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kekekekyle
Canada32 Posts
And I don't really understand your parents analogy... I know my parents are my parents because there is evidence for it. They are my legal guardians... there is no need to 'believe' they are my parents because the evidence supports it. I can get a paternity/maternity test, whatever. Also, what exactly do you mean when you say believing in Jesus? I believe he was a real person... but I don't believe he performed miracles, does that disqualify me from entrance into heaven by your definition? | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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kekekekyle
Canada32 Posts
And the belief in the existence of a god and the idea of being saved are part of Christianity, which is a religion. | ||
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Falcynn
United States3597 Posts
That's what my dictionary says about religion at least. I understand what you're trying to say Mada_Jiang, that even if you don't actually believe that Jesus is our savior doesn't change the fact that he is. However in this case the whole parent analogy doesn't really work because it's easy to prove whether or not someone's your parent or not, but it's pretty much impossible to prove that god exists or that Jesus is our Lord and savior. The only way to believe in that is to have faith, and religion is essentially deemed as having faith in any higher power without actually having physicaly proof. I'm not trying to argue whether or not Christianity is right or whatever, I'm just saying that technically it is a religion. | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
On May 05 2008 13:19 Mada_Jiang wrote: Kyle, I made a few posts about why I think true Christianity is not a religion. Now, you believe that your parents are your biological parents without tests. you say you "can" get a test, but you don't. You already believe it before you even have evidence. I don't know why you brought it up though but thank you! That is great example of faith ^.^ About Jesus, you can believe your father existed as a person but you can also say he is just some stranger and is not your father and you got nothing to do with him. Except you know your parents, you've known them your whole life. What if you were raised in an orphanage with no knowledge of them, and suddenly a random person came to you and claimed to be your father. Should you just automatically believe him? You aren't allowed to ask any question or get any more information, you can just have faith. If your answer is yes, i would be seriously worried about your judgment. Now say you live in a jungle tribe and you've never heard of any sort of religions. Then one day a man from another tribe says the Great JuJu bird in the sky is your one and only savior. Should you believe him? What if he says Jesus is your savior? Nobody can make informed decisions on faith alone. | ||
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micronesia
United States24734 Posts
On May 05 2008 14:16 LxRogue wrote: I agree that religion is set up in a way that you can't really be justified in making any logical claims for why to practice it aside from environmental factors.Except you know your parents, you've known them your whole life. What if you were raised in an orphanage with no knowledge of them, and suddenly a random person came to you and claimed to be your father. Should you just automatically believe him? You aren't allowed to ask any question or get any more information, you can just have faith. If your answer is yes, i would be seriously worried about your judgment. Now say you live in a jungle tribe and you've never heard of any sort of religions. Then one day a man from another tribe says the Great JuJu bird in the sky is your one and only savior. Should you believe him? What if he says Jesus is your savior? Nobody can make informed decisions on faith alone. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
On May 05 2008 14:50 Mada_Jiang wrote: When you go home from work today you will know your house will be there. How do you know it hasn't been burnt down? You know you will have a house to come back to, THAT still takes faith. It also takes faith to sit down on a chair and know that it will be break. We all make decision based on faith in our daily lives. When I heard about Jesus, I also questioned it like you. You know I once asked the same question as you, why should I automaticly believe him. Btw you are allowed to ask questions, isn't that what you are doing now? lol I know I won't convince you, so do what I did, and ask God your self. And I believe that he will answer you like he answered me. I accepted Jesus by faith, and I kepted asking God questions and now I live a life growing in Christ. It isn't a real relationship unless there is communication right? So ask questions ^.^ When you have experienced the love of God through Christ you will never be the same again. I personally live a life of miracles and I witness Miracles all the time around me. Neither of those examples have anything to do with faith. I don't know my house will still be there; it is only very likely. There shouldn't be anything to cause a sudden fire, so i'm not very worried about it. When you sit on a chair, you do so because you've grown up knowing the function of a chair and how it works. If you had never seen a chair or anything like it in your life, you would be very hesitant to touch it or sit on it. Both of these are based on evidence, verifiable physical experiences that everyone has. Without the evidence that our senses give us, nobody would do these actions on faith alone. I wouldn't just accept that a house exists at some precise location without seeing it. I would never assume the chair would hold my weight if i had never before seen a chair. I would also never assume a man was my father unless i had known him. You can try to extend this to God, but that's where it fails. Whereas i can say with confidence that my house exists, or that this chair will hold my weight due to basic observation, nobody can say that about God or his abilities. Any questions about the nature of God/Jesus/etc. are meaningless because they can't be answered with simple verifiable facts. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
On May 05 2008 15:22 Mada_Jiang wrote: So if you believe anything ONLY on observation, then please tell me, do you believe that there was a Roman Emporer named Julius Caesar? There are no photographs of him, you have never seen him before. Do you believe he exists? At the moment there is only written information or word of mouth about his existence. If you must have evidence that our senses give us, then you will not believe that this Roman emperor existed nor would you believe in any of the figures before Photographic technology was invented. lol, this topic is turning into something else, but its fun none of the less ^.^. I don't know for sure he existed, but there are many first hand accounts of him so i would say it is very likely. Also important is that all the record are very similar as to his existence. They all tell me he was a Roman Emperor, the dates he lived, and what he did in his life. Although the evidence is second hand, it is still persuasive. Why don't we compare the evidence of Caesar with the evidence of God? Although i have no first hand experience with either of them, all of the records of Caesar are very similar and seem to be reliable. However, some people tell me that there are multiple gods, or some with differnet powers than others. Some say god is an all-powerful, unseen being, or even that he is an Middle Eastern man who lived 2000 years ago. When i ask people how they know, they don't have 1st hand evidence or even 2nd hand evidence; they only have faith which is completely useless when it comes to truth. These are all very interesting, but there is no evidence to work with, no consensus, no reason to believe one story over the other. The aren't even written accounts of god. In fact the only written evidence of god has been passed down and interpreted so many times, i find it very very unlikely to be true. | ||
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Slithe
United States985 Posts
Naturally, a difference of beliefs in humans will lead to tensions, conflict, etc. I don't know if I would consider humans as being evil though. I think it's just because humans are, on average, stupid. # Whether Christianity is a religion: This is largely an issue of definition more than anything else. It seems to me that under most dictionary definitions, Christianity is a religion. I think Mada_Jiang is just trying to emphasize his belief that you don't have to practice anything to truly be a Christian. Of course, this is just one of many interpretations of the Bible. | ||
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