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math puzzle

Blogs > azndsh
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azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-02-24 05:22:21
February 24 2008 04:54 GMT
#1
Here's a short and fun little math problem.

If you take two regular six-sided dice and rolled them, the most likely sum to come up is 7. Suppose instead, you are allowed to relabel the faces of both dice with any numbers between 0-6 inclusive however you want. How would you do it so that all the sums 1-12 are equally likely to come up? edit: they come up with non-zero probably (specifically 1/12)

Please use spoilers.

*****
LxRogue
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States1415 Posts
February 24 2008 05:16 GMT
#2
+ Show Spoiler +
all sides of both dice 0, 1-12 have a 0% chance of showing up!
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24799 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-02-24 05:23:52
February 24 2008 05:23 GMT
#3
I've never heard of a die having 0 as a side...

Is that necessary in order for this problem to work out?
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
B1nary
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada1267 Posts
February 24 2008 05:24 GMT
#4
+ Show Spoiler +

first die: 0,0,0,6,6,6
second die: 1,2,3,4,5,6
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
February 24 2008 08:14 GMT
#5
+ Show Spoiler +

existance:
use standrad die and a die that has 3 0's and 3 6's. Each sum's probability is obviously 1/6*1/2=1/12

Uniqueness:
Say die 1 and die 2 has a1 and a2 number of values on their sides.

a1=1 =>a2=12 no solutions
a1=2 =>a2=6 =>a2 is standard die. a1 has to have 0's and 6's in order to form numbers 1 and 12. Clearly only 1 solution for a1=1 or 6(the one above)
3<=a1<6 =~> 4>=a2<6 =>solutions fail because they can't be equally distributed on the dice (a1 or a2 does not divide 6), creating different probabilities.
This only leaves a1=a2=6 which clearly is no solution.

Got too long for being obvious, but wth
Enter a Uh
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States557 Posts
February 24 2008 09:07 GMT
#6
+ Show Spoiler +
Given a die, we assign a polynomial P(x)=ax^0+bx^1+cx^2+dx^3+ex^4+fx^5+gx^6 to that die.
The coefficient of x^j is defined to be the number of faces of the die with a j written on them, so the sum of the coefficients of P is 6.

Now, if P is the polynomial associated to one die and Q to another, then P times Q represents all the possible sums that come from rolling the two dice and adding the results. In short, to solve the problem we need to find P and Q such that P times Q has all coefficients equal.

We basically want to solve
P*Q=3*(x+x^2+...+x^12) (we get the 3 by noticing that (P*Q)(1)=P(1)*Q(1)=6*6)

Now, (x+x^2+...+x^12)=(x^13-x)/(x-1)=(x)(x^6-1)(x^6+1)/(x-1)=(x)(1+x+x^2+...+x^5)(x^6+1)

Thus 3*(x+x^2+...+x^12)=(x+x^2+x^3+...+x^6)(3x^6+3x^0).

We conclude that one die should be the standard die with 1-6 on its faces, while the second die should have 3 0s and 3 6s.
starleague.mit.edu
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
February 24 2008 10:16 GMT
#7
On February 24 2008 18:07 Muirhead wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Given a die, we assign a polynomial P(x)=ax^0+bx^1+cx^2+dx^3+ex^4+fx^5+gx^6 to that die.
The coefficient of x^j is defined to be the number of faces of the die with a j written on them, so the sum of the coefficients of P is 6.

Now, if P is the polynomial associated to one die and Q to another, then P times Q represents all the possible sums that come from rolling the two dice and adding the results. In short, to solve the problem we need to find P and Q such that P times Q has all coefficients equal.

We basically want to solve
P*Q=3*(x+x^2+...+x^12) (we get the 3 by noticing that (P*Q)(1)=P(1)*Q(1)=6*6)

Now, (x+x^2+...+x^12)=(x^13-x)/(x-1)=(x)(x^6-1)(x^6+1)/(x-1)=(x)(1+x+x^2+...+x^5)(x^6+1)

Thus 3*(x+x^2+...+x^12)=(x+x^2+x^3+...+x^6)(3x^6+3x^0).

We conclude that one die should be the standard die with 1-6 on its faces, while the second die should have 3 0s and 3 6s.

Yeah, this is the best way to do it

gj
Enter a Uh
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
February 24 2008 12:07 GMT
#8
The answer I came up with was
+ Show Spoiler +

First die: 0 2 4 6 8 10
Second die: 1 1 1 2 2 2
NathanSC
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States620 Posts
February 24 2008 12:21 GMT
#9
On February 24 2008 21:07 Slithe wrote:
The answer I came up with was
+ Show Spoiler +

First die: 0 2 4 6 8 10
Second die: 1 1 1 2 2 2

Making up your own rules eh?
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
February 24 2008 17:00 GMT
#10
+ Show Spoiler +


Didn't give it much thoughts at all, so probably wrong.

What if I leave 1 die alone, so its faces have 1-6.

I label three faces of the other die 0, and the other three faces 6.

The probability of obtaining a 0 or 6 on the new die is equally likely. The probability of obtaining any number is equally likely for the average die.

So you should be able to get any number b/w 1 and 12 with equal odds.

When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
February 24 2008 17:01 GMT
#11
On February 24 2008 21:21 NathanSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2008 21:07 Slithe wrote:
The answer I came up with was
+ Show Spoiler +

First die: 0 2 4 6 8 10
Second die: 1 1 1 2 2 2

Making up your own rules eh?


The idea is right...
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Moletrap
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1297 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-02-24 20:01:40
February 24 2008 20:01 GMT
#12
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

aka Moletrap
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