I said I'd do another a list and I did it. I tried to keep this as constructive as I could. Please no negative comments in this thread. Try to keep this to strategy discussion only. Thanks.
(Diggity is aware July did not get lair)
2:00 - The 2 hatch hydra rush definitely won't become the standard build vs bisu build, it's an all in hanbang rush which if fails because toss gets cannons up in time then zerg pretty much loses.
2:48 - Why do you say Orion's micro is not good
4:24 - You don't know if Jangbi's gonna do the bisu build or not
5:37 - Orion isn't going for a cheese build or early muta or anything, doesn't matter that much if Jangbi sees his base or not, he has nothing to hide. But despite that you wanna kill the probe as soon as you can in any situation ofc.
5:50 - Are you saying Jangbi will get robotics before archive? That would be the more uncommon build vs 4 hatch. Usually protoss uses templars to deal with hydras.
5:58 - What are you trying to say with Jangbi dedicating to 2 gates? How do you "dedicate" to 2 gates when FEing?
6:18 - How do you know he's going reaver?
6:32 - Two extractors is standard
6:42 - Now Jangbi builds robotics, robo before templar archive is uncommon in pvz. You should always assume stargate archive robo and be surprised that robo came first.
7:00 - How is hydra/lurk a more micro intensive build than normal?
7:30 - You keep saying Orion isn't fantastic at micro, why? I've never seen anything that tells me his micro his poorer than other progamers.
8:45 - Zerg would never go hive in that situation with only 2 gas and no need for hive units/tech.
Part 2
0:22 - That was NOT bad micro, Jaedong couldn've killed that shuttle.
2:03 - Why are you saying Jangbi has better multitasking than Orion? What's your problem with Orion?
2:41 - You keep saying Orion has bad micro and it's getting a bit annoying. Why would you ever waste 10 or so hydras in that situation to take out that shuttle? Progamers make much better decisions than you can, I don't think you should've criticized him there.
4:20 - Orion doesn't have a huge economical advantage, you just saw 5 or so of his drones get killed, his 4th expansion is barely running
4:45 - You may think this is nitpicking but it's not. Lurker contain to expoing, building an economic advantage is the essence to zvp. It's not Orion's trademard or anything.
5:35 - When a toss is able to push zerg back far enough to attack his rally point directly than the zerg in that situation must already be at a huge disadvantage.
every thing Orion does sucks compared to most progamers, including his micro (although not specifically, the worst part is his reaction/counter and slow builds). And yes, I've seen most of his TV games.
"progamers make better decisions than you can" Yes but as an observer you can calmly overlook the situation and see if things are worth it or not afterhand. A progamer may play hundred times better than most of us but it's not as if they benefit from all their actions. Progamers can make a bad judgement of a situation too which happens quite often. But I agree, maybe he should refrain from being too negative about a player and focus on trying to commentate more objective.
Oh and I know Orion is in the MSL... I watched the group-play but I still don't understand how the hell he got in.
This is obviously meant to help him. Progamers make much better decisions than we can at the time of the decision, I agree that sometimes we as observers can judge the situation through hindsight, however in that particular situation I believe Orion made the right decision by not trying to kill the shuttle.
Orion has made the last two MSLs. He's beaten Iloveoov and Free[gm] in the current MSL, he's of course not among the top tier of zergs but he's had a faster and smoother transition period from amateur to progamer than almost all zergs who turned pro at around the same time as him.
- The 2 hatch hydra rush definitely won't become the standard build vs bisu build, it's an all in hanbang rush which if fails because toss gets cannons up in time then zerg pretty much loses.
I meant more the aggressive denial of the scout (almost excessive) not the 2 hydra push.
How do you know he's going reaver?
not sure what had just happened in the game at this point. Did the robo just go down? If not it was due to out of game reasons and probe scouting.
outgame: I was assuming that July v Bisu on blue storm was in Jangbi's mind and he didn't want to fall to an early hydra push. Although DT can stop this as well reaver is safer/easier (perhaps thats just my opinion). Also prior advice in threads about 3 hatch hydra v bisu build was running through my head. Additionally from what I have seen of Orion he tends to favor hydra. I assumed that Jang bi knew this as well--> therefore robo. (does any of that make sense? it was a bit meta and to be honest even before the game I thought Jang bi was going robo and Orion was going 3/4 hatch. I didn't expect a 9 pool not leading into July-like anti scout from Orion though.) I was starting to mention this at the start in which case me talking about revears would have made more sense I'm sure but I got interrupted by the 9 pool. If Orion had gone fast expand I would have continued along these lines of thought.
in game: I think at this point I assumed reaver because of the probe scouting and the robo. (if the robo wasn't down yet I think it was only the scouting) Again for out of game reasons I was thinking reaver anyhow. (assuming robo was out) If Jangbi was going templar he would have put down the archive straight instead and just funneled out dt on the ground. I am not sure what was happening right at this point in the game, but I was pretty much assuming that Orion was going 4 hatch (similar to Yarnc on Troy v Sangho) and was therefore going hydra (and therefore Jangbi was going reaver as I stated above)
6:32 - Two extractors is standard
If I suggested otherwise I was wrong in doing so. (I dont remember saying that this was unusual, I certainly don't believe it to be so, but in the midst of things who knows)
You don't know if Jangbi's gonna do the bisu build or not
yea I just spit things out on this mostly where as before I would have been more reserved.
You keep saying Orion isn't fantastic at micro, why? I've never seen anything that tells me his micro his poorer than other progamers.
Vs Free he had a lot of micro errors (not burrowing lurks, lurks being caught out in the open etc) Same with vs Oov I think its mostly nerves because in the past I have seen him play more smoothly. (This sort of holds for all of the bad micro comments) Orion seems to have a good head and good macro but at least in the prior games lacked micro.
I understand that these guys are the top of the world as far as broodwar but if we cant comment on their comparative abilities there is no point in discussing esports at all. Its sort like equivalently talking about how Shaq is playing poorly. That not to say he isn't Shaq and would own us all at basketball, but as commentary goes in the context of competitive play he is playing poorly. (just using Shaq as an example)
That was NOT bad micro, Jaedong couldn've killed that shuttle.
I dont remember mentioning Jaedong. If you mean Orion going for the shuttle with scourges, I felt like he could have protected the scourges instead of wasting them not get the shuttle. With the hydras in the open I think he had an opportunity but not at the point I mentioned it.
8:45 - Zerg would never go hive in that situation with only 2 gas and no need for hive units/tech.
I think here I was more talking about long term goals not the direct situation at hand. He of course would have needed at bare minimum another hatch with gas (at 6 or bottom right) to maintain a hive build. Instead it looks like he was going for a contain that just didn't work out.
Orion doesn't have a huge economical advantage, you just saw 5 or so of his drones get killed, his 4th expansion is barely running
I thought I said "had" or at some point tried to make the specific point that Orion was falling behind. Was this before or after Jangbi got that 3rd expansion? (again cant watch the vid) If it was right after the 4th hatch but before the 3rd expansion from Jang bi (not sure if that is correct in game order) then may get an advantage would have been more appropriate.
You may think this is nitpicking but it's not. Lurker contain to expoing, building an economic advantage is the essence to zvp. It's not Orion's trademard or anything.
I don't think I was suggesting this. Prior to Bisu build this was standard ZvP was it not?
When a toss is able to push zerg back far enough to attack his rally point directly than the zerg in that situation must already be at a huge disadvantage.
In the game I mentioned that was in fact the case. Here it looked like Orion had troops rallying up outside of Jang bi's expansion to lock the contain (as oppose to being attacked outside his min only natural expansion). In retrospect this was probably not the case. I think an interesting artifact of blue storm is the predictability of the rally points due to map design.
Anyhow this was all really helpful I will try to watch my wording mostly in the future and when I meta do it less or at least put it out there at the beginning (I started to but got distracted by the game itself)
Diggity it seems like because you're not still familiar with the zvp matchup, you're assumingly wrongly the reasoning behind players' decisions from past examples.
2 hatch hydra comment: What do you mean as to the aggressive denial of scout becoming standard?
Assuming reavers: When you said that it was long before Jangbi warped his robo. The July vs Bisu game has no relation to this game whatsoever. July went for a hanbang hydra build. From what Jangbi's probe saw there was no possible reason he would assume Orion was hydra rushing, Orion did not get gas quickly, Orion built three hatches. There was nothing you saw at that point of the game that gave you enough evidence to assume Jangbi was going reaver/sair unless that is what Jangbi does every pvz which is not true. Because your lack of understanding of the matchup, again not an insult but a fact because you said it yourself that you don't play much starcraft, you don't seem to understand most of the logic behind pvz and zvp build orders. When zerg goes 4 hatch hydra, it's not a rush by any means but a safe build that gives zerg enough units mid game to prevent toss from expoing too early and protect vs sair/dt or sair/reaver harass since when toss goes bisu build he won't have a lot of units aside from high tech units at that point of the game.
About Orion's micro: You can certainly compare the relative strengths and weakness of progamers but the thing is I don't think Orion has worse micro than progamers of the same caliber as him. I've seen both the Free and Iloveoov game and the "bad micro" is just sloppy play from either nerves as you said and bad multi-tasking. ZvP isn't a micro intensive matchup for zerg so there's no reason to bring that up as some sort of a deciding factor in the game. Also you cited several example of "poor micro" but they really weren't.
Jaedong comment: I was just using Jaedong as an example that even a zerg who is known for his micro would not have done anything different in that situation. I didn't think that was an example at all of "poor micro". The two examples you gave are really unnecessary and too picky.
Hive comment: Before you make any analysis about why a progamer should do something, consider for for what purpose would that action serve and how would it impact the game at that point. Getting hive would mean Orion could get defilers, cracklings and ultras. However Jangbi's play up until that point had been mostly harass. Hydras are the best zerg units to defend vs harass and the best complement to a lurker contain. There was nothing going on with the game at that point that would making going hive a better decision than staying at lair and massing hydra/ling/lurker. His contain didn't work out because Orion simply didn't get enough units and handled the harass poorly, it was not the effect of his strategic decision-making.
Lurker contain comment: You said, "He's just trying to contain, to go for a long term economic victory which I'm not surprise, It's Orion." Therefore I made the comment that it's not Orion's trademark to do that or anything, it's a very standard way to zvp.
The two examples you gave are really unnecessary and too picky.
Look who's talking. Since you're apparently trying to give good feedback, I'll give you some constructive criticism on your feedback. You're doing a lot of nitpicking and interpreting things wrong. I suspect you want to give Diggity as little benefit of the doubt as you can to make your criticism look more thorough. But it doesn't actually help at all to go out of your way to do that.
Some examples..
Jaedong comment: I was just using Jaedong as an example that even a zerg who is known for his micro would not have done anything different in that situation. I didn't think that was an example at all of "poor micro".
See, here you're putting words into his mouth.. Diggity never said it was bad micro for him to not kill the shuttle. But the fact is he lost 4 scourges and didn't hit anything with them. Jaedong would have pulled his scourges back and not lost them after losing maybe 1. Orion's lack of ability to pull his scourges out when there was no distraction of battle was, in fact, bad micro.
2:03 - Why are you saying Jangbi has better multitasking than Orion? What's your problem with Orion?
Apparently you didn't see Orion's game against Free. He did drops and forgot to burrow his lurkers... in fact he regularly forgot to burrow them in other places. At one point he actually ran 5 lurkers into Free's expo into a group of zealots. We're talking like 8 zealots, not a ton. And he didn't get them burrowed until 4 of his 5 lurkers were dead. Against Oov (their first game), when Oov was assaulting his base he attack moved his lings back to his base and they streamlined into Oov's two medic-less firebats that were separated from the marines and all the lings died without getting a kill.
Lurker contain comment: You said, "He's just trying to contain, to go for a long term economic victory which I'm not surprise, It's Orion." Therefore I made the comment that it's not Orion's trademark to do that or anything, it's a very standard way to zvp.
See.. Diggity never said it was Orion's trademark. He was saying that Orion favors the standard longer economic victory whereas other zergs are more likely to do something different than the conservative Orion (who is more comfortable in a long game).
Okay, I won't bother pursuing that vein any more, but hopefully you see what I mean.
What DOES help is pointing out strategic rules of thumb or maybe strategic points we have missed and WHY they are important.
For instance, pointing out that 12 hatch always means nexus first is a good point to make. I wouldn't necessarily think that they were in lots of trouble by getting their nexus first (I didn't actually say that in the triple), but it's good to know that's definite.
Okay, P always gets archives before robo.. why is that? Why not just go straight sair/reaver without getting templar first? Is it to make sure the Z doesn't take air superiority?
You might point out "you missed the fact that so and so had 3:1 upgrades and blah only had 1:1." That would be something I would have completely missed when I started commentating, but now I try to keep an eye on the upgrades because I didn't realize how important they were, before. I would still like to learn more specifics, though.. like 2hit vs 3hit lings is a good specific to mention if you were talking about how we missed upgrades.
On a side note... I thought the Bisu build is any time they go FE with the forge and gateway blocking the cannons, etc, etc. Is it only the quick sair/dt variation that is considered "Bisu build"? I.e... if they go sair reaver or quick mass speed lots after the FE is that no longer the Bisu Build?
No... pointing out stuff like that is useless because you guys don't have any idea of how basic build orders work and why players use them, that's why you guys make the comments you make. Your starcraft knowledge comes from watching progaming games where you don't understand most of the stuff that's going on. That's why I'm pointing out obvious mistakes while you think I'm nitpicking. The fact that you think Orion has poor micro from the games vs free and oov is another example that you dont recognize theyre multi-tasking errors rather than bad micro. I really hate how you still think you know what you're talking about but only miss a few things when in fact many of the analysis and assumptions you make is just simply wrong, play the game more, learn.
Going robo before archive means toss wants to harass first then build an army, going archive first skips that step. I don't think you guys need to learn specifics I think you guys need to play more starcraft and study basic build orders and matchups first so your analysis isn't wrong most of the time.
On January 26 2008 11:16 zulu_nation8 wrote: No... pointing out stuff like that is useless because you guys don't have any idea of how basic build orders work and why players use them, that's why you guys make the comments you make. Your starcraft knowledge comes from watching progaming games where you don't understand most of the stuff that's going on. That's why I'm pointing out obvious mistakes while you think I'm nitpicking. The fact that you think Orion has poor micro from the games vs free and oov is another example that you dont recognize theyre multi-tasking errors rather than bad micro.
WTF. If you actually read my post I WAS talking about multitasking at the time, not micro.
Edit: Note your quote about multitasking right before me talking about Free/Oov.
I don't understand why f10esqftw is getting so worked up over what zulu is saying. Zulu is stating these mistakes to help the people who make commentaries out and all he's receiving is harsh responses by the creators. if you don't like or appreciate his tone/content/suggestion/WHATEVER just ignore it and don't reply it seems from my point of view (which may not seem like much since i'm a "nobody") that whenever zulu points out a problem, people get bigheaded and respond by attacking the way he states the problem. stating that he's nitpicking or giving a negative attitude doesn't change the fact that he's giving advice and corrections for YOUR commentary. i'm hoping that people will be able to get past their ego and just be able to learn from their mistakes
On January 26 2008 21:05 nujabes wrote: I don't understand why f10esqftw is getting so worked up over what zulu is saying. Zulu is stating these mistakes to help the people who make commentaries out and all he's receiving is harsh responses by the creators. if you don't like or appreciate his tone/content/suggestion/WHATEVER just ignore it and don't reply it seems from my point of view (which may not seem like much since i'm a "nobody") that whenever zulu points out a problem, people get bigheaded and respond by attacking the way he states the problem. stating that he's nitpicking or giving a negative attitude doesn't change the fact that he's giving advice and corrections for YOUR commentary. i'm hoping that people will be able to get past their ego and just be able to learn from their mistakes
If you don't reply, other people just assume you have accepted his advice and admitted you are wrong. Diggity and Moletrap do not feel they are wrong
I don't care if a progamer is macroing four bases and a 150 supply cap army, losing 4 scourge is bad micro. It doesn't matter that it stems from multi-tasking, when you don't \use your units effectively it's bad micro.
so when bisu dt dropped savior in game 2 of msl savior had bad micro because he lost like 8 drones and spawning pool? i think the issue is with multitasking, not micro. orion didn't react fast enough to pull his scourge back
Really zulu should put up or shut up. He claims that his criticisms are constructive, but all of his posts just give the impression that he's only out to bash and nitpick digg/moletrap/klaz. Is zulu a good player? I don't know... from the way he talks about the game it certainly seems like he holds his own skills in high regard. Here's an idea... if you are a great player, play the damn game. If you don't like diggity's commentaries, stop watching them? They are not out to teach people starcraft strategy, they are out to make the matches more entertaining. Listen to the original korean commentators sometime. They get PAID to comment the televised games, and it's not like they are offering deep strategic insight. They are just excitedly shouting things and play-by-play most of the time. Diggity/klaz/moletrap do this as a hobby, yet you hold them to a higher standard.
Seriously, if you are THAT worried about people learning the wrong things and being cursed to a life of mediocre strategy and bad decision making, go pick a bone with blizzard's official strategy compendium or the prima official strategy guides. As far as "corrupting" new players, I'm sure that those two OFFICIAL references have a much greater impact. Go pick a bone with battlereports.com, because they've got literally thousands of reports with dubious strategic calls (made in hindsight too), and lots of people read them. Instead, you choose to pick a bone with 3 guys who do this for fun, as if you have something personal against them. Maybe you are jealous that they sound like they are having a good time in their videos? If you can do a better commentary, do one and shut your critics up. If you really care about not misleading new players, there are much bigger fish to fry. If you are a good player, just go back to playing the game. If you are none of those, then just stfu.
EPT
it seems from my point of view (which may not seem like much since i'm a "nobody") that whenever zulu points out a problem, people get bigheaded and respond by attacking the way he states the problem. stating that he's nitpicking or giving a negative attitude doesn't change the fact that he's giving advice and corrections for YOUR commentary. i'm hoping that people will be able to get past their ego and just be able to learn from their mistakes
