• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 05:20
CET 11:20
KST 19:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13
StarCraft 2
General
Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win SC2 Proleague Discontinued; SKT, KT, SGK, CJ disband Information Request Regarding Chinese Ladder
Tourneys
$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest RSL Revival: Season 3 Tenacious Turtle Tussle [Alpha Pro Series] Nice vs Cure
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation
Brood War
General
Data analysis on 70 million replays Which season is the best in ASL? [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BW General Discussion FlaSh's Valkyrie Copium
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? Current Meta PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread The Perfect Game Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread The Big Programming Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Esports Earnings: Bigger Pri…
TrAiDoS
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 946 users

Math/Computer Science Problem

Blogs > Slithe
Post a Reply
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-22 23:20:36
January 22 2008 23:17 GMT
#1
You have a list of unknown size N, that you are only allowed to traverse once. The goal is to devise a method to create a set of size K that is random and uniformly distributed among all the possible subsets of N that are size K. What is the method?

Remember:
1) You do not know N. Your answer should not rely on N, i.e. your memory size should not be based on N in any way.
2) You can only traverse the list once.
3) K is less than or equal to N, so there is always at least one possible set.

*****
Asta
Profile Joined October 2002
Germany3491 Posts
January 22 2008 23:39 GMT
#2
I'm too tired to think it through but will the 'picks' be evenly distributed if you choose the first K elements and then (if N > K) eliminate a random (evenly distributed) element of the K+1 (the old picks and the next one on the list)?
I think not... :D Because the first ones will be much likelier to be discarded than the last ones. Which brings us back to the initial problem that you don't know to what degree you have to favor the first ones because it depends on N. Hum...
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
January 23 2008 00:31 GMT
#3
Yeah, that's how you must do it. Up to K you obvioulsy have to pick all elements to your set. When you run through the n:th element (n>K), you use it to replace a random element in your previous set of K elements with a probability K/n. Leave the set unchanged with prob (n-K)/n. Use induction to prove that it works.
zdd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1463 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 02:49:19
January 23 2008 00:31 GMT
#4
I think it would be something like this:
let's say n is an array of ascending integers, k is an int, set_k is an empty array

the set n would be distributed something like this: [1 - k][k+1 - 2k][2k+1 - 3k]...
i=0;
for each $element in n {
if(i<k){
if(random(1,k)=k){
$set_k[i]=$element;
i++;
}
}
}

I dunno, statistically each element in n would have a 1/k chance to become an element in set_k, so I guess in every k elements in set n there should only be around 1 element that goes into set k.

edit: oh nvm, maybe you could just copy set "n" to set "set_k", then remove random elements from set_k until length(set_k) is equal to K

int K = <some value>;
int i=0;
int[] set_k;
for each $element in n {
set_k[i]=$element;
i++;
}
while(length(set_k) != K) {
delete(set_k[random(0, length(set_k))]);
}
output set_k

edit2: cascade's idea is different, because he uses k+1 memory instead of n
it would be implemented something like:
int K = <some value>;
int i=0;
int[] set_k;
function randomkn(k, n){ //run random(1,n) k times
$var=false;
while (k>0){
k--;
if (random(1, n) == n){$var=true;}
}
return $var;
}
for each $element in n {

if (i<K+1){
set_k[i]=$element;
i++;
}

else if (randomkn(K, length(n))) {
set_k[random(0,K+1)]=$element;
}

}
output set_k
All you need in life is a strong will to succeed and unrelenting determination. If you meet these prerequisites, you can become anything you want with absolutely no luck, fortune or natural ability.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 01:37:02
January 23 2008 01:30 GMT
#5
zdd, your second algorithm isn't O(1) or O(K) memory, it's O(n) memory, which breaks the problem constraints.

I'm not sure if I follow your first one.

I think the actual solution has something to do with finding the probability that the nth element should be included in the set, given k.

Obviously (at least to me, I could be wrong), the first element should be selected with (N/K) probability. Then, k := K - 1 if the first element was selected, and n := N - 1 , and repeat for the rest of the elements. This is guaranteed to return K elements.

There might seem to be a problem with the later elements (especially the last element) having a higher than (N/K) probability to be selected, but I think this is not the case. For the last L elements to always be selected, (n/k == 1) must hold. However, the probability of this happening is quite small if N is large (unless K is equally large).

I'm too lazy to calculate it myself (OK, I'm too stupid to do it), but I think if you go through with it, you'll find that the probability that the last L elements are arrived at with (k==n) is the same as 1 minus the probability that they are arrived at with (k==0).

Oh, shit, you don't know N. My idea is bunk.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
January 23 2008 01:35 GMT
#6
Yeah, I think that Cascade's idea will work. Your memory space is O(K), not O(N), so it's fine.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
January 23 2008 02:41 GMT
#7
Yes Cascade has the right answer. Good job! I'll be posting up a significantly more difficult problem now, which I actually don't quite know the answer to, but I have a basic idea.

Regarding this problem:
Basically, since you don't know how many elements are in the list, you have to make sure at each iteration through the list, all elements up to that iteration have an equal probability, k/i, of being in the set, where "i" is the current index. If you work around that idea, then the answer comes more easily, or at least for me it did.

For Asta's answer: The key there was that you don't always discard. It seems that you already realized the problem, so you probably would have realized the fix eventually.

For zdd's answers:
The first one is incorrect because, all elements will have probably 1/k of being in the set until the set is full, and then the next elements have probability 0. In the first place, 1/k is incorrect, and the correct probability to aim for is k/i.
The second one, BottleAbuser pointed out the problem, which is that you require O(n) memory, which is not allowed.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 40m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 256
ProTech124
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2107
Shuttle 1334
Horang2 1292
actioN 552
Larva 482
Jaedong 387
Mini 297
Hyun 194
Light 186
Rush 131
[ Show more ]
Sharp 121
Zeus 109
Pusan 105
ZerO 105
Killer 88
Dewaltoss 78
sorry 59
ToSsGirL 46
Last 40
Mong 22
soO 21
NotJumperer 17
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
Hm[arnc] 8
Terrorterran 5
Dota 2
XcaliburYe158
League of Legends
JimRising 382
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1509
shoxiejesuss630
Super Smash Bros
Westballz23
Other Games
summit1g9683
XaKoH 390
Fuzer 131
KnowMe65
ZerO(Twitch)7
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick640
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 54
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH226
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota243
League of Legends
• Jankos1843
• Stunt1047
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
1h 40m
StarCraft2.fi
6h 40m
Replay Cast
13h 40m
The PondCast
23h 40m
OSC
1d 5h
Demi vs Mixu
Nicoract vs TBD
Babymarine vs MindelVK
ForJumy vs TBD
Shameless vs Percival
Replay Cast
1d 13h
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
SC Evo League
3 days
BSL 21
3 days
Sziky vs OyAji
Gypsy vs eOnzErG
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
Solar vs Creator
ByuN vs Gerald
Percival vs Babymarine
Moja vs Krystianer
EnDerr vs ForJumy
sebesdes vs Nicoract
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
OSC
4 days
BSL 21
4 days
Bonyth vs StRyKeR
Tarson vs Dandy
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
StarCraft2.fi
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
StarCraft2.fi
6 days
PiGosaur Monday
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-30
RSL Revival: Season 3
Light HT

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
Slon Tour Season 2
Acropolis #4 - TS3
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
Kuram Kup
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.