• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:17
CET 12:17
KST 20:17
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview12Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win2RSL Season 4 announced for March-April6Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win3Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft 2 Not at the Esports World Cup 2026 Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) HomeStory Cup 28 StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 510 Safety Violation Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Can someone share very abbreviated BW cliffnotes? [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Liquipedia.net NEEDS editors for Brood War BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10
Strategy
Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Path of Exile Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Play, Watch, Drink: Esports …
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1898 users

Math/Computer Science Problem

Blogs > Slithe
Post a Reply
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-22 23:20:36
January 22 2008 23:17 GMT
#1
You have a list of unknown size N, that you are only allowed to traverse once. The goal is to devise a method to create a set of size K that is random and uniformly distributed among all the possible subsets of N that are size K. What is the method?

Remember:
1) You do not know N. Your answer should not rely on N, i.e. your memory size should not be based on N in any way.
2) You can only traverse the list once.
3) K is less than or equal to N, so there is always at least one possible set.

*****
Asta
Profile Joined October 2002
Germany3491 Posts
January 22 2008 23:39 GMT
#2
I'm too tired to think it through but will the 'picks' be evenly distributed if you choose the first K elements and then (if N > K) eliminate a random (evenly distributed) element of the K+1 (the old picks and the next one on the list)?
I think not... :D Because the first ones will be much likelier to be discarded than the last ones. Which brings us back to the initial problem that you don't know to what degree you have to favor the first ones because it depends on N. Hum...
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
January 23 2008 00:31 GMT
#3
Yeah, that's how you must do it. Up to K you obvioulsy have to pick all elements to your set. When you run through the n:th element (n>K), you use it to replace a random element in your previous set of K elements with a probability K/n. Leave the set unchanged with prob (n-K)/n. Use induction to prove that it works.
zdd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1463 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 02:49:19
January 23 2008 00:31 GMT
#4
I think it would be something like this:
let's say n is an array of ascending integers, k is an int, set_k is an empty array

the set n would be distributed something like this: [1 - k][k+1 - 2k][2k+1 - 3k]...
i=0;
for each $element in n {
if(i<k){
if(random(1,k)=k){
$set_k[i]=$element;
i++;
}
}
}

I dunno, statistically each element in n would have a 1/k chance to become an element in set_k, so I guess in every k elements in set n there should only be around 1 element that goes into set k.

edit: oh nvm, maybe you could just copy set "n" to set "set_k", then remove random elements from set_k until length(set_k) is equal to K

int K = <some value>;
int i=0;
int[] set_k;
for each $element in n {
set_k[i]=$element;
i++;
}
while(length(set_k) != K) {
delete(set_k[random(0, length(set_k))]);
}
output set_k

edit2: cascade's idea is different, because he uses k+1 memory instead of n
it would be implemented something like:
int K = <some value>;
int i=0;
int[] set_k;
function randomkn(k, n){ //run random(1,n) k times
$var=false;
while (k>0){
k--;
if (random(1, n) == n){$var=true;}
}
return $var;
}
for each $element in n {

if (i<K+1){
set_k[i]=$element;
i++;
}

else if (randomkn(K, length(n))) {
set_k[random(0,K+1)]=$element;
}

}
output set_k
All you need in life is a strong will to succeed and unrelenting determination. If you meet these prerequisites, you can become anything you want with absolutely no luck, fortune or natural ability.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 01:37:02
January 23 2008 01:30 GMT
#5
zdd, your second algorithm isn't O(1) or O(K) memory, it's O(n) memory, which breaks the problem constraints.

I'm not sure if I follow your first one.

I think the actual solution has something to do with finding the probability that the nth element should be included in the set, given k.

Obviously (at least to me, I could be wrong), the first element should be selected with (N/K) probability. Then, k := K - 1 if the first element was selected, and n := N - 1 , and repeat for the rest of the elements. This is guaranteed to return K elements.

There might seem to be a problem with the later elements (especially the last element) having a higher than (N/K) probability to be selected, but I think this is not the case. For the last L elements to always be selected, (n/k == 1) must hold. However, the probability of this happening is quite small if N is large (unless K is equally large).

I'm too lazy to calculate it myself (OK, I'm too stupid to do it), but I think if you go through with it, you'll find that the probability that the last L elements are arrived at with (k==n) is the same as 1 minus the probability that they are arrived at with (k==0).

Oh, shit, you don't know N. My idea is bunk.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
January 23 2008 01:35 GMT
#6
Yeah, I think that Cascade's idea will work. Your memory space is O(K), not O(N), so it's fine.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
January 23 2008 02:41 GMT
#7
Yes Cascade has the right answer. Good job! I'll be posting up a significantly more difficult problem now, which I actually don't quite know the answer to, but I have a basic idea.

Regarding this problem:
Basically, since you don't know how many elements are in the list, you have to make sure at each iteration through the list, all elements up to that iteration have an equal probability, k/i, of being in the set, where "i" is the current index. If you work around that idea, then the answer comes more easily, or at least for me it did.

For Asta's answer: The key there was that you don't always discard. It seems that you already realized the problem, so you probably would have realized the fix eventually.

For zdd's answers:
The first one is incorrect because, all elements will have probably 1/k of being in the set until the set is full, and then the next elements have probability 0. In the first place, 1/k is incorrect, and the correct probability to aim for is k/i.
The second one, BottleAbuser pointed out the problem, which is that you require O(n) memory, which is not allowed.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 43m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 239
BRAT_OK 94
ProTech39
ForJumy 4
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 23003
Calm 7067
Bisu 1754
GuemChi 1067
BeSt 737
Jaedong 702
Larva 530
actioN 310
Light 283
Mini 204
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 191
ajuk12(nOOB) 166
Sacsri 156
Dewaltoss 138
Zeus 121
Soma 120
Sharp 113
Rush 106
Pusan 104
Mong 82
Snow 74
JYJ 68
ToSsGirL 67
hero 66
Hyun 66
ZerO 65
Backho 48
Mind 48
ggaemo 44
Shuttle 44
Hyuk 40
Killer 39
sorry 35
Bale 34
Free 31
zelot 29
Liquid`Ret 27
GoRush 23
Noble 20
Hm[arnc] 20
Movie 14
HiyA 13
Terrorterran 12
910 10
Aegong 10
SilentControl 9
Shinee 7
ZergMaN 6
scan(afreeca) 6
Dota 2
Gorgc3569
XaKoH 468
XcaliburYe92
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss1070
allub242
zeus7
Other Games
Liquid`RaSZi1130
B2W.Neo1017
ceh9471
crisheroes232
Pyrionflax184
Mew2King86
KnowMe48
ToD23
ZerO(Twitch)11
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 9
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Noizen31
League of Legends
• Jankos4230
• Stunt1523
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
43m
Rex vs SHIN
Rex vs MaxPax
Rex vs ShoWTimE
SHIN vs ShoWTimE
MaxPax vs SHIN
MaxPax vs ShoWTimE
Replay Cast
12h 43m
The PondCast
22h 43m
WardiTV Invitational
1d
Replay Cast
1d 12h
RongYI Cup
2 days
herO vs Maru
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-02
HSC XXVIII
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Acropolis #4 - TS4
Rongyi Cup S3
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W7
Escore Tournament S1: W8
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.