• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:44
CEST 15:44
KST 22:44
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview4[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors8Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun13[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10
Community News
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !7Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple0RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event12Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results12026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 524 Death and Taxes The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base
Brood War
General
Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site Tulbo's ASL S21 Ro8 Post-Review Why there arent any 256x256 pro maps?
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro8 Day 4 Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Daigo vs Menard Best of 10 Path of Exile OutLive 25 (RTS Game)
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How EEG Data Can Predict Gam…
TrAiDoS
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1218 users

Math/Computer Science Problem

Blogs > Slithe
Post a Reply
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-22 23:20:36
January 22 2008 23:17 GMT
#1
You have a list of unknown size N, that you are only allowed to traverse once. The goal is to devise a method to create a set of size K that is random and uniformly distributed among all the possible subsets of N that are size K. What is the method?

Remember:
1) You do not know N. Your answer should not rely on N, i.e. your memory size should not be based on N in any way.
2) You can only traverse the list once.
3) K is less than or equal to N, so there is always at least one possible set.

*****
Asta
Profile Joined October 2002
Germany3491 Posts
January 22 2008 23:39 GMT
#2
I'm too tired to think it through but will the 'picks' be evenly distributed if you choose the first K elements and then (if N > K) eliminate a random (evenly distributed) element of the K+1 (the old picks and the next one on the list)?
I think not... :D Because the first ones will be much likelier to be discarded than the last ones. Which brings us back to the initial problem that you don't know to what degree you have to favor the first ones because it depends on N. Hum...
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
January 23 2008 00:31 GMT
#3
Yeah, that's how you must do it. Up to K you obvioulsy have to pick all elements to your set. When you run through the n:th element (n>K), you use it to replace a random element in your previous set of K elements with a probability K/n. Leave the set unchanged with prob (n-K)/n. Use induction to prove that it works.
zdd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1463 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 02:49:19
January 23 2008 00:31 GMT
#4
I think it would be something like this:
let's say n is an array of ascending integers, k is an int, set_k is an empty array

the set n would be distributed something like this: [1 - k][k+1 - 2k][2k+1 - 3k]...
i=0;
for each $element in n {
if(i<k){
if(random(1,k)=k){
$set_k[i]=$element;
i++;
}
}
}

I dunno, statistically each element in n would have a 1/k chance to become an element in set_k, so I guess in every k elements in set n there should only be around 1 element that goes into set k.

edit: oh nvm, maybe you could just copy set "n" to set "set_k", then remove random elements from set_k until length(set_k) is equal to K

int K = <some value>;
int i=0;
int[] set_k;
for each $element in n {
set_k[i]=$element;
i++;
}
while(length(set_k) != K) {
delete(set_k[random(0, length(set_k))]);
}
output set_k

edit2: cascade's idea is different, because he uses k+1 memory instead of n
it would be implemented something like:
int K = <some value>;
int i=0;
int[] set_k;
function randomkn(k, n){ //run random(1,n) k times
$var=false;
while (k>0){
k--;
if (random(1, n) == n){$var=true;}
}
return $var;
}
for each $element in n {

if (i<K+1){
set_k[i]=$element;
i++;
}

else if (randomkn(K, length(n))) {
set_k[random(0,K+1)]=$element;
}

}
output set_k
All you need in life is a strong will to succeed and unrelenting determination. If you meet these prerequisites, you can become anything you want with absolutely no luck, fortune or natural ability.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 01:37:02
January 23 2008 01:30 GMT
#5
zdd, your second algorithm isn't O(1) or O(K) memory, it's O(n) memory, which breaks the problem constraints.

I'm not sure if I follow your first one.

I think the actual solution has something to do with finding the probability that the nth element should be included in the set, given k.

Obviously (at least to me, I could be wrong), the first element should be selected with (N/K) probability. Then, k := K - 1 if the first element was selected, and n := N - 1 , and repeat for the rest of the elements. This is guaranteed to return K elements.

There might seem to be a problem with the later elements (especially the last element) having a higher than (N/K) probability to be selected, but I think this is not the case. For the last L elements to always be selected, (n/k == 1) must hold. However, the probability of this happening is quite small if N is large (unless K is equally large).

I'm too lazy to calculate it myself (OK, I'm too stupid to do it), but I think if you go through with it, you'll find that the probability that the last L elements are arrived at with (k==n) is the same as 1 minus the probability that they are arrived at with (k==0).

Oh, shit, you don't know N. My idea is bunk.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
January 23 2008 01:35 GMT
#6
Yeah, I think that Cascade's idea will work. Your memory space is O(K), not O(N), so it's fine.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
January 23 2008 02:41 GMT
#7
Yes Cascade has the right answer. Good job! I'll be posting up a significantly more difficult problem now, which I actually don't quite know the answer to, but I have a basic idea.

Regarding this problem:
Basically, since you don't know how many elements are in the list, you have to make sure at each iteration through the list, all elements up to that iteration have an equal probability, k/i, of being in the set, where "i" is the current index. If you work around that idea, then the answer comes more easily, or at least for me it did.

For Asta's answer: The key there was that you don't always discard. It seems that you already realized the problem, so you probably would have realized the fix eventually.

For zdd's answers:
The first one is incorrect because, all elements will have probably 1/k of being in the set until the set is full, and then the next elements have probability 0. In the first place, 1/k is incorrect, and the correct probability to aim for is k/i.
The second one, BottleAbuser pointed out the problem, which is that you require O(n) memory, which is not allowed.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
SC Evo League
13:00
StarCraft Evolution League #22
LiquipediaDiscussion
CranKy Ducklings
10:00
Sea Duckling Open #145
CranKy Ducklings61
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko399
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 49275
Sea 17631
Calm 9055
Horang2 1275
EffOrt 924
Mini 899
BeSt 648
firebathero 341
Soulkey 274
Zeus 165
[ Show more ]
Last 135
Mind 116
Sharp 91
ggaemo 87
HiyA 81
PianO 67
ToSsGirL 65
Hyun 63
Backho 58
sorry 48
hero 46
Shinee 42
Noble 41
Aegong 41
Rock 19
yabsab 15
GoRush 11
JulyZerg 10
Sacsri 10
IntoTheRainbow 10
Icarus 5
Dota 2
Gorgc5467
XcaliburYe333
BananaSlamJamma95
Counter-Strike
fl0m3605
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor210
Other Games
gofns14155
singsing2490
B2W.Neo1494
DeMusliM416
Happy298
mouzStarbuck144
monkeys_forever129
Mew2King97
Livibee79
Hui .7
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL18959
Other Games
gamesdonequick2211
StarCraft 2
WardiTV793
IntoTheiNu 717
ComeBackTV 533
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 17
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP3
• Dystopia_ 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3327
• Jankos1457
Other Games
• WagamamaTV170
• Shiphtur4
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1h 16m
BSL
5h 16m
Artosis vs TerrOr
spx vs StRyKeR
Replay Cast
10h 16m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
20h 16m
RSL Revival
20h 16m
Cure vs Zoun
Clem vs Lambo
WardiTV Invitational
21h 16m
BSL
1d 5h
Dewalt vs DragOn
Aether vs Jimin
GSL
1d 18h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 20h
Soma vs Leta
Wardi Open
1d 22h
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
OSC
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Light vs Flash
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W6
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
KK 2v2 League Season 1
SCTL 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
YSL S3
Escore Tournament S2: W7
Escore Tournament S2: W8
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026: Closed Qualifier
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.