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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 11 2007 06:12 Kennigit wrote: No because i dont like going into detail unless i can talk in person. Internet peoples are also very aggressive and snide. Then don't go into detail, but don't mischaracterize. | ||
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lugggy
450 Posts
On December 11 2007 05:17 Kennigit wrote: I consider myself a realist Christian. That being, I believe there is a god, I believe in jesus. However, I believe that the bible over the course of 2000 years has been warped and misconstrued through translation and through a period of about 500 years where Christianity had more political power than we have ever known. I think it is ridiculous that many Christians lock themselves to the bible and can't see beyond it - Evolution and Creationism can coexist and i believe in both. I guess i associate a lot more logic to my beliefs despite being Christian (that probably sounds like an oxymoron..oh well). The bible says that the earth was created in 7 days. We'll thats nice except in the concept of eternity time does not equate - 7 days in eternity could be 30 billion years. It's also a bit ridiculous to say "oh the entire universe all of a sudden just exploded out of nothing". I find athiests try to portray themselves as realists but the fundamentals of the belief add up about as much as christian beliefs do. No one has got it right yet, and i don't expect anyone ever will. What is your source for your belief that there is a God? That's really the topic here. What caused you to gain this knowledge, and do you believe it is possible to share it with others (if not, do you expect them to think you are right?) | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
On December 11 2007 04:37 JensOfSweden wrote: I'm not an atheist, however I don't believe in christ...actually I don't have a firm set of beliefs. I would call myself agnostic. I also somewhat believe in re-incarnation and souls continuing from existence to existence. Simply sums up my views on this. I don't beleive in the bible god by any means, do this or go to hell, be good or go to hell, get on your knees for god 3 times a day or go to hell. I think the idea of existing for the inevitable point of non existence is dumb, why would we ever experience the existence point then? Why woldn't it just flash by in a heart beat? When i die will i fall into non existence? Or perhaps another world? Perhaps i will float on towards heaven, maybe i will sink to the depths of hell. Who knows? I sure don't. I had struggles witht his for a while like 2 months ago, for 2 weeks all i could think about was post death, whiether it's non existence or some form of afterlife. The conclusion i came to after this 2 weeks of depressive thinking was good, it made me realzie that regardless of what happens i'm cool with it. At first i couldn't accept the idea or the possibility that this is it, it's here where it all happens, before and after this is non existence. I have this breif trip until i'm back to where i started, which is no where. That everything i am, everything i will be, everything i was, will just eventually be gone. No trace left anywhere. And that thought messed with me. Then i took an opposing view, a "What if.." scenario. What if i oculd live forever? Would i want to? Would it be fun? Would knowing theres always going to be a tomorrow? Would sleep be a necessity as it is now? Or would i constantly be aware of everything without rest or relaxation. Would i always be thinking or never be thinking. Then i thought about it some more and came to this conclusion, regardless of what happens i am content. If i die and theres a heaven or some form of afterlife, sweet, i will eventually adapt and know that theres always tomorrow and theres no endpoint on this line of existence. However i thought of what non existence must feel like, which is kind of stupid if you tihnk about it, it's basically thinking about what it would be like to be incapable of thought. Which i think would be considered a paradox. Then my friend (Whose Aetheist) Said have i ever had a dream without sleep? I responded that i had, and that would essentially be what it would be like, and that is some of the best sleep i have ever gotten, so regardless i am happy and content. But most importantly, i think putting too much thought into this is a complete waste of time, considering i won't know until i die, and when i die the answer to the question of life after death becomes irrelivent. So heres to living life to it's fullest, and not rushing to a premature death. | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
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nA.Inky
United States794 Posts
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
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ChkChk.Boom
United States140 Posts
Christian: How do you justify your beliefs? Muslim: The Koran says so. Now how do YOU justify YOUR beliefs? Christian: The Bible says so. Both: .... | ||
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lugggy
450 Posts
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
On December 11 2007 05:53 nA.Inky wrote: Meta: do not put heinous crimes down to religion. Humanity in general has always been capable of barbaric behavior. Don't forget the millions that have died at the hands of those that embraced science and secularism. Intolerance is the problem, not Christianity or Islam or atheism. Science and technology are now very dominant in the world today, and look where humanity sits... we are on the brink of unprecedented collapse. You should do some research into the nature of Islam before you completely discredit their influencs in the turmoil throughout the world. They are conquistadors of intolerance. They are as intolerant as the catholics of 12th century Europe. The punishment for losing your Islamic faith under an Islamic theocracy is death. Their morals are clearly obscured by their belief of paradise, on such a level as to actually threaten western civilization. Say what you might about the other religions, but Islam is truely the bane of modern man. The major problem with the other religions is that their doctrine is just as unfounded as Islam's, and as such, we as reasonable human beings cannot ridicule Islam for what it is on a public level without being accused of intolerance, hate, and discrimination. Sam Harris can do a much better job explaining where we stand than I can so I urge you to look into his books and speaches for the argument against yours. | ||
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nA.Inky
United States794 Posts
My feeling is that there are terrible examples of people from any background or ideology, but we can't generalize from them to everyone else. There are insane Christians, insane atheists, insane Muslims, insane capitalists, and insane socialists... You see? I won't pretend to be an expert on this subject though. You've read books on it and I have not. My World Religions class didn't make Islam out to be a problem at all, though. Personally, I don't fear Islam one bit. I am also one of those weird 9/11 conspiracy people, too, though.  | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
[QUOTE]On December 11 2007 05:53 nA.Inky wrote: Sam Harris can do a much better job explaining where we stand than I can so I urge you to look into his books and speaches for the argument against yours.[/QUOTE]Inky doesn't submit to classical logic. I don't mean that as an insult, but Harris dismantles Christianity in a more specific and logical way than even Dawkins. The reason these turn into hostile arguments is because the only justification for a belief in God is a "weak justification", that being personal, private, subjective and unprovable (not meant to be an insult, that's simply the philosophical term for that type of belief.) It's pretty much immune to scrutiny, since you can't disprove what someone felt. To an evidentialist, this is unethical and incorrect thinking. Even if the claim is true, it was arrived upon incorrectly (like guessing an answer in math, without doing the work correctly.) Anyways, since the religious person openly admits that the belief is irrational, the only thing left is to give up or attack the other foundations of their belief system (Ex: You may have felt God, but the Bible is wrong here, here, here and here so how do you know its the Christian God?) You're left with a raging Atheist defending science and logic and a pissed off religious person who is either questioning their life or thinking the other people will burn in Hell or be reborn as a rock, etc. Occasionally you run into a religious pluralist and things turn out friendly, but most people are exclusivists. But you're right - the best way to convince someone is by giving them stuff to read, not by criticizing their beliefs. If someone wants a bunch of religious philosophical arguments to read, just ask. | ||
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lugggy
450 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 11 2007 04:54 JensOfSweden wrote: They are similar, except the very crucial fact that one is testable and the other isn't.It seems to me like these new "humanists" or whatever you call them are like a religion of their own, without actually believing in a god, but in science rather. Personally, I think Dawkins is a douche and I don't think a religiousless world is possible and maybe not even beneficial to a lot of people. But I don't have an answer for dealing with exclusivists who think only their way is right. If you do, PM me and we can save the world together. Well Jibba if people admit the belief is irrational and that they come to it personally, then fine. My impression is that most people out there with religious beliefs believe they have evidence and reason on their side. I know a lot of people do but I think they just haven't spent enough time thinking about it. I'm pretty sure though that telling them they're wrong is one of the least likely ways to convince them. | ||
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lugggy
450 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
Now im not sure God exists, or, perhaps its better to say, im not sure God cares. However, i read the bible and everything, read even some books by the christian authors and they all inspired me in a way. Im totally for living in harmony with christian laws and everything, i really feel like i realize how the world works (so to say it.) Christianity is good, its really good. I feel God made this place, gave us the book to help us find the right path, and then moved along. Im not sure he loves us as his own children. However, his words are right. Thats why i dont ignore them. | ||
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Rev0lution
United States1805 Posts
I think there is a low chance of a divine being. I think there is a lower chance of that divine being endorsing the christian faith. I believe there is even a lower chance of such divine being caring for people and listening to prayers. I'm not really interested in the God debate so much anymore, I rather destroy people's points of views when they are based on dogma all but the belief of a supernatural God. I'm an atheist just like Sam Harris is an atheist. | ||
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Rev0lution
United States1805 Posts
I find that keeping the separation of church and state much more efficient in keeping fundamentalism away from society than to have a debate on religious dogma. It's dogma for a reason, you can't argue against it. Completely pointless. I much rather use the power organizations like the Secular Coalition for America to further eliminate dogma away from our educational system, our court system and our electorate system much more efficient than to debate with religious fundamentalists.They never listen to argument anyways... | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
I'm not really interested in the God debate so much anymore, I rather destroy people's points of views when they are based on dogma all but the belief of a supernatural God. But in a way, you're a fundamentalist non-believer. You're actively trying to force your beliefs upon other people. Logically, it's apparent that the existence of God or any religion for that matter cannot be proven but it can't be disproved either. Everyone, even the most righteous atheists like Dawkins and Harris, admit that God is possible thus I don't think you can enforce the fact that it's not possible. The justification for doing so is that religion is a tremendous source of violence, but I think fundamentalism of any nature is, that is trying to enforce the way people think and what they think about. Granted, hardcore atheists are probably much less violent than hardcore religious people, because there is no ultimate consequence for them not being violent but it's a dangerous concept none the less. Keeping the church and government secular is a wholly different issue than telling ordinary people what to think. Again, I have no clue what the solution is. | ||
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
Outside of this religious context, if a teacher or a scientist comes to you and tells you something that you didn't know/believe before, or something that goes against a current belief you have, and then proceeds to show you evidence and have a discussion/debate with you, he is essentially 'forcing his beliefs' on you. If a math teacher came up to you and said 'holy crap, they just found out that pi has a pattern to it in base 26171, it might be hard to believe initially, but if they showed the proof to you, it would seem undeniable. If you were about to bite into a sandwich and your friend stopped you, warning you that it has mayonnaise on it when you didn't see it, even though you're very allergic to mayonnaise, he has just forced a belief on you, and it may have saved you a lot of grief. Yet they have just 'forced a belief' on you. How is this a bad thing? And please, the more I hear about fairies the more my head hurts. Yes, we know it's not 100% impossible that fairies or Santa Claus exist, but in normal conversation, when there's absolutely no evidence of something you don't simply say you 'don't know,' you say you 'don't believe.' I *don't believe* in a god in the same way that you all *don't believe* because I have never seen, felt, heard, or otherwise sensed any evidence for the existence of a god or gods. Religious extremists are dangerous, but I think some of you underestimate the number of people in the United States who most Europeans would deem 'religious extremists.' Faith is by definition 'a belief in a hypothesis with no evidence supporting it.' Whenever you say you 'have faith that the sun will come up' or something along those lines, you seem to neglect the fact that we have mathematical proofs and the theory of gravity and a fairly good grasp of atomic reactions and the nature of the sun supporting you when you say 'it will rise again tomorrow (this runs contrary to the American South, which most likely will not rise again). Thats not even mentioning the fact that the sun has risen every other day in recorded human history. These are all the body of evidence supporting the hypothesis that the sun will come up. The thing is a lot of what people call 'faith' in other applications outside religion is not faith at all. There is no similar evidence for a belief in a god of any kind, let alone the very specific JudeoChristian god. Mainstream religion paves the way for irrational thought, and when faith (a belief in something based on no evidence) combines with irrational thought and fanaticism, it's very, very bad for civilization. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
If a math teacher came up to you and said 'holy crap, they just found out that pi has a pattern to it in base 26171, it might be hard to believe initially, but if they showed the proof to you Again, you're trying to play hockey on a basketball court. | ||
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