EPT
On March 01 2021 12:57 Teoita wrote:
By going Phoenixes you are more or less telling the Zerg they can do whatever they want until your 3rd is fully established. The vanilla 2SG does the same, but it can also branch into at least two all-ins that Zest has shown in this very tournament (he did a two SG mass Phoenix timing in the group stage, plus the charge timing from game 1 in the finals). As far as I know, Phoenix into some committed timing hasn't really been a thing in a very long time, it's a much more rigid build because of the extra gas required. On top of that, the raw number of drones killed is misleading. Basically every Protoss opening effectively kills 2-3 drones simply by forcing spores. If an Oracle kills 2-3 extra, while a bunch Phoenixes get 7, you are not getting ~200% more drone kills, you're getting only ~100%, while also spending more and giving the Zerg more freedom, if that makes sense.
At least as far as openings and setting up for the midgame goes, going some combination of Oracles and Void Rays is more flexible than straight Phoenixes imo. As a side note, Reynor gained a large advantage because Zest's first two Stargate units always telegraphed his entire game plan (he went double Void Ray if he wanted to all in, Void Ray into Oracle when he went for Stargate macro, and mass Oracle when he went single Stargate into ground), as Lambo mentioned on his stream, but that's a minor digression
Once midgame hits (which I define as "anything after starting your third"), either Protoss commits to some sort of all-in like they have been doing to mediocre success before 2SG became a thing, or you just do not have the power to be anywhere near creep. This is is also why PvZ produces such boring games, as the only interesting thing going on really are the strategy adjustments and mindgames.
So now we have our third, we're not all in, and the ball is entirely in the Zerg's court to either go Hive or do their own allin. When you have no chance but to sit back and macro, it makes sense to go for the build that sets you up best for lategame, which after the Viper nerf seems more playable than it's been in years. Another side note here is that Zest's builds were on the greedy side like that. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only game he won in the finals, Reynor was forced to push into the base with the shield batteries and cannons. Both on Deathaura and Pillars of Gold, the bulk of Zest's defensive buildings were at a base that never came near a Zerg unit. On top of that, he always went for Storm ahead of Disruptors which are supposedly much safer (at the cost of a worse lategame).
By going Phoenixes you are more or less telling the Zerg they can do whatever they want until your 3rd is fully established. The vanilla 2SG does the same, but it can also branch into at least two all-ins that Zest has shown in this very tournament (he did a two SG mass Phoenix timing in the group stage, plus the charge timing from game 1 in the finals). As far as I know, Phoenix into some committed timing hasn't really been a thing in a very long time, it's a much more rigid build because of the extra gas required. On top of that, the raw number of drones killed is misleading. Basically every Protoss opening effectively kills 2-3 drones simply by forcing spores. If an Oracle kills 2-3 extra, while a bunch Phoenixes get 7, you are not getting ~200% more drone kills, you're getting only ~100%, while also spending more and giving the Zerg more freedom, if that makes sense.
At least as far as openings and setting up for the midgame goes, going some combination of Oracles and Void Rays is more flexible than straight Phoenixes imo. As a side note, Reynor gained a large advantage because Zest's first two Stargate units always telegraphed his entire game plan (he went double Void Ray if he wanted to all in, Void Ray into Oracle when he went for Stargate macro, and mass Oracle when he went single Stargate into ground), as Lambo mentioned on his stream, but that's a minor digression
Once midgame hits (which I define as "anything after starting your third"), either Protoss commits to some sort of all-in like they have been doing to mediocre success before 2SG became a thing, or you just do not have the power to be anywhere near creep. This is is also why PvZ produces such boring games, as the only interesting thing going on really are the strategy adjustments and mindgames.
So now we have our third, we're not all in, and the ball is entirely in the Zerg's court to either go Hive or do their own allin. When you have no chance but to sit back and macro, it makes sense to go for the build that sets you up best for lategame, which after the Viper nerf seems more playable than it's been in years. Another side note here is that Zest's builds were on the greedy side like that. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only game he won in the finals, Reynor was forced to push into the base with the shield batteries and cannons. Both on Deathaura and Pillars of Gold, the bulk of Zest's defensive buildings were at a base that never came near a Zerg unit. On top of that, he always went for Storm ahead of Disruptors which are supposedly much safer (at the cost of a worse lategame).
Continuing off that, I looked at the games in a bit more details and took a few extra notes. The thing that stood out the most to me was how different Reynor's builds on Deathaura and Romanticide were.
Deathaura
Reynor rushed to Hive like a madman, starting it at 6:35 (!!!!!) at the same time as his fourth hatch. Zest scouted this very early with his Oracle as well. There's basically a 120 second window between when the infestation pit starts and Hive is well on the way, in which Protoss can sense a lurker bust may be coming with enough time to react in some way - whether that's just building more static defense and positioning, or teching differently, I don't know, but it's still quite a lot of time by LotV standards. This push hits crazy fast though, by 9:20 Reynor was sieging the Protoss 4th. I have no idea what Zest's take on this game was, because first the started a Fleet Beacon but only made one Carrier, then started two Robos but only made like 2-3 Immortals, and in all this he never made extra static defenses at his fourth (which was the most likely place for Reynor to hit). That doesn't exactly scream optimized response to a scary 9 minute push.
Romanticide
On Romanticide Reynor's build seemed much less committed, he delayed his Infestation Pit and Hive and got a fourth instead. His push hit about one minute later, and as a result Zest managed to get Carriers up in time. I also think he only started to figure out what was going on a bit after 8 minutes, after starting his Fleet Beacon, when his Oracle (which had been idle-ish for a couple of minutes) revealed a bunch of queens and hydras sitting together near a 4th with gasses taken.
It could well be that Reynor adapted his build to something he saw from Stats, but I don't think there was much variation in the first 6 minutes of the game that would have triggered that.
Pillars of Gold
This looked like the scariest build of the bunch to me. The fourth hatch and etra gas timings for the Lurker build look nearly identical to this roach/ravager push, so that sucks for us Protoss. Zest only saw Roaches around the 7 minute mark because the Queens kept pushing his Oracle back, and about 90 seconds later Reynor's push was at his front door. Despite getting that scout, Zest still did not start additional static defenses at his third or natural, he simply produced Immortals non stop. He also went ahead and took his fourth after building a bunch of gates (showing at least some adaptation from the previous games).
I'm not sure what the right call in this situation is, but all the useless static defense at the fourth definitely doesn't help. Disruptors may work though - using Zoun's build against Armani from the Super Tournament, building a 5 minute (blind) robo means you can start you first Disruptor around 6:45. By the time Zerg hits with this push you can have 3-4ish Disruptors, which at least one shot queens so it definitely looks better than the four High Templar and handful of Immortals Zest had. The caveat of course is you have to commit to either Storm or Disruptors blindly, and there may be other situations in which you would rather have Templar tech. We'll find out as the Disruptor branch of the build gets explored some more.
Bonus: Oxide
On Oxide Zest goes for a fake double stargate into chargelot allin. The timing of the third is completely different, which in principle makes it easy to scout for Zerg, except the Void Ray prevents that easy scout, so that's nice. What is a bit iffy is that Zest kind of needs to rush a second Void Ray, over an Oracle, and that gives his build away to some extent. I think optimizing the order of the initial Stargate units (say, by always opening two Void Rays, and only adding an Oracle as a third unit if you're not going to go double Stargate) would go a long way in messing with the Zerg's head, at least in a bo5/bo7.
Meanwhile, Reynor went for melee upgrades over ranged (which is what you would get for a roach or lurker build) at around 4:30, so he's clearly not thinking about any German Taxi/Polish Subway/Italian Fashion Walk (which is what Lambo wanted to call the Pillars game - I wholly stand behind this name)/Great Book of Zerg Bullshit build. He also starts a Lair and Baneling Nest super late, but takes a 4th at the standard time. Much like the Deathaura game, this is not exactly what an optmized response to a scary push looks like in my head. Maybe Reynor expected a mass Phoenix build like in the group stage.
So yeah, PvZ is still shit to watch but at least the meta isn't stale and it feels like there's a lot Protoss can do before really figuring out the matchup. There were definitely lots of plays and adjustments Zest could have made in the games that he lost.
