• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:51
CEST 12:51
KST 19:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles0[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China7Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL63Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2024! Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 685 users

Some notes on Reynor vs Zest

Blogs > Teoita
Post a Reply
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
March 02 2021 04:58 GMT
#1
I figured I would write down a few notes from the IEM finals. I already summed up a few things in the LR thread in response to someone saying Protoss should go Phoenixes over Void Rays or Oracles, so let's start with that:

On March 01 2021 12:57 Teoita wrote:
By going Phoenixes you are more or less telling the Zerg they can do whatever they want until your 3rd is fully established. The vanilla 2SG does the same, but it can also branch into at least two all-ins that Zest has shown in this very tournament (he did a two SG mass Phoenix timing in the group stage, plus the charge timing from game 1 in the finals). As far as I know, Phoenix into some committed timing hasn't really been a thing in a very long time, it's a much more rigid build because of the extra gas required. On top of that, the raw number of drones killed is misleading. Basically every Protoss opening effectively kills 2-3 drones simply by forcing spores. If an Oracle kills 2-3 extra, while a bunch Phoenixes get 7, you are not getting ~200% more drone kills, you're getting only ~100%, while also spending more and giving the Zerg more freedom, if that makes sense.

At least as far as openings and setting up for the midgame goes, going some combination of Oracles and Void Rays is more flexible than straight Phoenixes imo. As a side note, Reynor gained a large advantage because Zest's first two Stargate units always telegraphed his entire game plan (he went double Void Ray if he wanted to all in, Void Ray into Oracle when he went for Stargate macro, and mass Oracle when he went single Stargate into ground), as Lambo mentioned on his stream, but that's a minor digression

Once midgame hits (which I define as "anything after starting your third"), either Protoss commits to some sort of all-in like they have been doing to mediocre success before 2SG became a thing, or you just do not have the power to be anywhere near creep. This is is also why PvZ produces such boring games, as the only interesting thing going on really are the strategy adjustments and mindgames.

So now we have our third, we're not all in, and the ball is entirely in the Zerg's court to either go Hive or do their own allin. When you have no chance but to sit back and macro, it makes sense to go for the build that sets you up best for lategame, which after the Viper nerf seems more playable than it's been in years. Another side note here is that Zest's builds were on the greedy side like that. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only game he won in the finals, Reynor was forced to push into the base with the shield batteries and cannons. Both on Deathaura and Pillars of Gold, the bulk of Zest's defensive buildings were at a base that never came near a Zerg unit. On top of that, he always went for Storm ahead of Disruptors which are supposedly much safer (at the cost of a worse lategame).


Continuing off that, I looked at the games in a bit more details and took a few extra notes. The thing that stood out the most to me was how different Reynor's builds on Deathaura and Romanticide were.

Deathaura

Reynor rushed to Hive like a madman, starting it at 6:35 (!!!!!) at the same time as his fourth hatch. Zest scouted this very early with his Oracle as well. There's basically a 120 second window between when the infestation pit starts and Hive is well on the way, in which Protoss can sense a lurker bust may be coming with enough time to react in some way - whether that's just building more static defense and positioning, or teching differently, I don't know, but it's still quite a lot of time by LotV standards. This push hits crazy fast though, by 9:20 Reynor was sieging the Protoss 4th. I have no idea what Zest's take on this game was, because first the started a Fleet Beacon but only made one Carrier, then started two Robos but only made like 2-3 Immortals, and in all this he never made extra static defenses at his fourth (which was the most likely place for Reynor to hit). That doesn't exactly scream optimized response to a scary 9 minute push.

Romanticide

On Romanticide Reynor's build seemed much less committed, he delayed his Infestation Pit and Hive and got a fourth instead. His push hit about one minute later, and as a result Zest managed to get Carriers up in time. I also think he only started to figure out what was going on a bit after 8 minutes, after starting his Fleet Beacon, when his Oracle (which had been idle-ish for a couple of minutes) revealed a bunch of queens and hydras sitting together near a 4th with gasses taken.

It could well be that Reynor adapted his build to something he saw from Stats, but I don't think there was much variation in the first 6 minutes of the game that would have triggered that.

Pillars of Gold

This looked like the scariest build of the bunch to me. The fourth hatch and etra gas timings for the Lurker build look nearly identical to this roach/ravager push, so that sucks for us Protoss. Zest only saw Roaches around the 7 minute mark because the Queens kept pushing his Oracle back, and about 90 seconds later Reynor's push was at his front door. Despite getting that scout, Zest still did not start additional static defenses at his third or natural, he simply produced Immortals non stop. He also went ahead and took his fourth after building a bunch of gates (showing at least some adaptation from the previous games).

I'm not sure what the right call in this situation is, but all the useless static defense at the fourth definitely doesn't help. Disruptors may work though - using Zoun's build against Armani from the Super Tournament, building a 5 minute (blind) robo means you can start you first Disruptor around 6:45. By the time Zerg hits with this push you can have 3-4ish Disruptors, which at least one shot queens so it definitely looks better than the four High Templar and handful of Immortals Zest had. The caveat of course is you have to commit to either Storm or Disruptors blindly, and there may be other situations in which you would rather have Templar tech. We'll find out as the Disruptor branch of the build gets explored some more.

Bonus: Oxide

On Oxide Zest goes for a fake double stargate into chargelot allin. The timing of the third is completely different, which in principle makes it easy to scout for Zerg, except the Void Ray prevents that easy scout, so that's nice. What is a bit iffy is that Zest kind of needs to rush a second Void Ray, over an Oracle, and that gives his build away to some extent. I think optimizing the order of the initial Stargate units (say, by always opening two Void Rays, and only adding an Oracle as a third unit if you're not going to go double Stargate) would go a long way in messing with the Zerg's head, at least in a bo5/bo7.
Meanwhile, Reynor went for melee upgrades over ranged (which is what you would get for a roach or lurker build) at around 4:30, so he's clearly not thinking about any German Taxi/Polish Subway/Italian Fashion Walk (which is what Lambo wanted to call the Pillars game - I wholly stand behind this name)/Great Book of Zerg Bullshit build. He also starts a Lair and Baneling Nest super late, but takes a 4th at the standard time. Much like the Deathaura game, this is not exactly what an optmized response to a scary push looks like in my head. Maybe Reynor expected a mass Phoenix build like in the group stage.

So yeah, PvZ is still shit to watch but at least the meta isn't stale and it feels like there's a lot Protoss can do before really figuring out the matchup. There were definitely lots of plays and adjustments Zest could have made in the games that he lost.

****
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25045 Posts
March 05 2021 02:46 GMT
#2
Interesting, I find PvZ’s intricacies translate much better to post
hoc build analysis than as a contemporary viewing experience that’s for sure.

Have you seen any of Lambo’s discussion on their ‘Team Europe’ prep for these eventualities or Reynor’s recent interview with Harstem?

I haven’t got through it all but it’s good content on what they were thinking, so comparing some of it with what you thought their rationale was might be interesting, even if just for your curiosity.

I’m intrigued to see if Protoss can figure out smoother transitions, which seem to be an issue at the minute. Or indeed if gambling more rather than trying to catch-all is the approach to lategame.

It might not be stable but it might be better than trying to be all things to all men and being rounded.

You cheese blind and hope, the strength is in the risk, likewise doing a pre-planned hard all-in. Works or it doesn’t. People don’t tend to take that kind of big risk/big reward gamble so much when playing a straight macro game, and maybe they should, at least in PvZ, which is quite a unique matchup in terms of flow in the game. PvT and TvZ have (relatively) equivalent eco, supply counts and ability to be aggressive, PvZ just doesn’t function like that.

I’m not sure, it’ll be interesting to see how things develop. Zoun just going disruptors blind with his style would clearly have been better against some of Reynor’s pushes (assuming Reynor didn’t sniff it out). On the other hand a few vipers and bye bye disruptors, and temps are more reliable/less vulnerable to vipers in that sense.

Thing is even reliable Templars don’t do shit to lurkers with a bunch of Queens at your base, so you may as well gamble on disruptors if that’s a likely scenario.

It’s tricky, but I think it’s how Protoss should approach macro PvZ against the best Zergs, in theory. For PvT, ZvP, TvZ and ZvT the option of ‘I’m going to play solid, straight up and try to just outplay my opponent and react where necessary’ is a fallback for the world’s best. In PvZ given how the races interact, the mid-game supply deficit and difficulty in non-commital army movement etc and the Zerg eco explosion and some of the awkward Protoss transitions I think you’re potentially best off just gambling on a really strong, tight tech transition than trying to round it out and deal with multiple eventualities. You see games where there’s say, a gateway force with a few Archons, Voids from early game, some Immortals and Templars with storm with one Carrier out and a second about to pop with no interceptors at like 130/140 supply and it just gets rolled. Just go blind build like a million blind immortals with some storm, or go double robo disruptor early, or whatever.

Anyway I suck at Starcraft and am mostly rambling, but enjoyed the breakdown and if you feel my brand of bollocks is worth responding to that’d be great!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Creator 60
Rex 52
Lowko47
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 613
Jaedong 608
Soma 516
Pusan 487
Flash 400
Stork 357
Larva 270
Soulkey 187
Sharp 182
sorry 136
[ Show more ]
ZerO 114
sSak 63
Snow 62
JulyZerg 42
Mind 36
Shine 34
Free 31
yabsab 31
Aegong 26
zelot 24
Movie 18
EffOrt 11
IntoTheRainbow 9
Barracks 6
ivOry 4
Dota 2
XcaliburYe629
XaKoH 528
syndereN287
League of Legends
singsing903
rGuardiaN40
Counter-Strike
x6flipin450
allub147
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King217
Other Games
Pyrionflax323
crisheroes295
SortOf139
Happy110
ZerO(Twitch)12
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick29158
StarCraft 2
WardiTV19
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2226
Other Games
• WagamamaTV184
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
9m
Rex52
CranKy Ducklings12
Replay Cast
13h 9m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
23h 9m
WardiTV European League
1d 5h
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
1d 13h
The PondCast
1d 23h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.