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South Korea2105 Posts
Just over a week ago, ESL took the esports world by storm with plans of expanding its Pro Tour to include StarCraft II and WarCraft III for three years to come. A meticulously detailed circuit, broken down into a number of offline events and online opportunities for players of various skill levels, the EPT was just what the doctor ordered for the arguably stale RTS market. Both SC2 and WC3 fans alike, rejoicing at a bright outlook for the future, drowned out the faint voices of foreign Brood War enthusiasts, who were left wanting.
With how significant of an impact this game has had on the development of esports on the whole, one can't help but feel...cheated. StarCraft kick-started mainstream esports in South Korea and sat in the spotlight for well over a decade. It gave rise to a number of prominent esports entities across all levels of the industry, including tournament organizers, teams, TV channels, personalities, websites only to be cast aside and forgotten.
I'd like to assure you that I won't be delving into how we got here, as the subject has been addressed and revisited a sufficient number of times (and by people more knowledgeable than myself), but brooding over what's happened isn’t necessarily productive either. The question I'd like to focus on today is: 'Where do we go from here?'
There are three scenarios I see as somewhat possible. The first path Brood War could go down, though the least likely, is that ESL somehow decide to incorporate it in their EPT circuit in the future. The reason I think this might be possible is down to Apollo stating they're looking into abolishing the region-lock for SC2 in the future, which would effectively allow Koreans to compete in overseas events. And if they find a way to incorporate the Korean SC2 scene, then why not its SC1 counterpart? Brood War has virtually the same following in South Korea as SC2 does worldwide. The issue is the quite obvious skill disparity and the likelihood of people tuning in to events where foreigners get ground up into fine dust...which is the exact reason behind the introduction of region-locking in the first place. Then there's also the risk of Blizzard RTS games 'cannibalising' each other as the ESL Pro Tour is already stretched thin in terms of which event hosts which game. There's no tournament that would feature both SC2 and WC3 at the same time, and if the potential 'cannibalism' is a point of concern, then introducing Brood War to the circuit would be a logistical nightmare. StarCraft: Remastered missed a big window. Had it been released two years later, I bet it would have had a real shot at being up there with SC2. But, alas, WC3 is in the spotlight now.
Future #2: the foreign Brood War scene stays as is with a number of independently-run grassroots online leagues and the occasional LAN event every now and then. Basically, nothing would change. And while this is the most probable future for non-Korean Brood War, the voices of dissent that were raised with the EPT announcement would suggest not everyone is content with the state of things.
The third avenue for foreign Brood War, then, would involve the scene (somehow) finding a way of working together for the benefit of all. Esports is a business. If there's a better deal on the horizon, the sensible thing to do is to go where the money is. Why would ESL or Blizzard, or Dreamhack, or whoever invest in Brood War if the potential return is far less enticing than in the case of Fortnite, League, or Dota 2—or even the other esports-centred RTS games?
There's a lot of untapped potential in BW. The Korea StarCraft League, Brood War’s premier circuit most watched by foreigners peaks at 8k-9k foreign viewers season in, season out. Compared to primetime esports, that doesn’t seem like much. But considering Quake struggles to break the 2k mark for its 'official' professional league, I’d say we’re doing pretty well. (Also worth mentioning - Quake will feature at IEM Katowice this year. Doable? Doable.)
What we do, however, have, are mostly minor, online leagues. The Bombastic Starleague is currently hovering at a steady 400-500 viewer average per broadcast. It hasn't always been like this, and a lot of work has been put into maintaining that average. ZZZero, the main thinktank behind the endeavour, has been investing his private capital and dedicating almost all his free time for years to get to this point. And if you think the matter of 'profit' has ever come in to play, you're delusional.
This goes for all the foreign tournaments. Profitability is quite possibly the last thing on anyone's mind. The STPL, Jeez Weekly, Defiler Tour, Corrupted Cup...all these are an extension of the passion of their respective organizers. And while the freedom to do things “your way” as an organiser is addictive, it leaves little room for growth. You're shouldering all the responsibility, ranging from raising community interest, running the tour, finding someone to cast (and often ending up with nothing but one or two PoV streams from the participants). How do you sell a product that can't possibly grow as you're stretched too thin to cover all your bases?
Then comes the question of accessibility. Keeping up with all these “niche” events is hard enough. The STPL often finds itself weeks behind schedule in terms of broadcasts. The Nationwars team only showcase a select number of matches each week, and you never know whose matches those are going to be. We don't have a legible (and up-to-date!) calendar. We don't have a sponbbang-esque ranking to keep track of player achievements (which in itself is a detriment to player engagement—why bother if the result doesn't matter in the long run?)
Before you reach for your pitchfork, torch, or other weapon of choice - no, cooperation isn't going to be easy. But if you want Brood War to grow? It's quite possibly the only way. Unite the grassroots tournaments we have now under one banner. Come up with a uniform circuit. Keep track of all the matches and make sure they count. Reach out to your favourite esports team and be vocal about wanting to see them represented in Brood War. Did you know Team Secret, the guys that won The International a couple of years back (nevermind, they didn't, I mixed them up with someone else... still), also have an Age of Empires II roster? Yeah, Age of Empires II; what happened there? Some of these orgs owe a lot to StarCraft. Perchance all they need to pay homage to their roots is a not-so-subtle nudge. I know I'm sticking my neck out there and I'm likely to be ridiculed for stating my mind on the matter. But all I'm trying to do here is to spark conversation. Worst case scenario, nothing changes (and I become a social pariah, driven out of StarCraft by an angry mob). Best case scenario, Brood War grows. The scene is chock full of talented people. It’s a matter of putting all the resources together. Discussing potential solutions to our plight is no guarantee things will get better. But you can bet your bottom dollar it’s the first step needed to have a fighting chance in the future. Let's get talking!
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I think it has something to do with blizzard trying to promote and push sales on WC3:R. Leaving SC:R out might have been a strategic move on blizzards part in collaboration with ESL. ESL announces WC:R tours right before the launch of WC3:R theoretically hyping up the player base seeing that a professional organization like ESL is now behind WC3:R which will increase sales in my opinion. Once the hype dies off the game will be dropped unless WC3:R has a miraculous comeback which I highly doubt. The same things happened with SC:R on launch, it’s just gonna be a pump and dump and that will be it in a year or two for WC3:R. Unfortunately SC:R seems like it’s in the dump stage and it’s going to remain there unless SC:R content skyrockets in popularity, I’m just speculating but I think that’s how blizzard is viewing these remastered games from a business stand point. Also WC3:R has yet to launch and I’m curious how smoothly it will run and what the features will be like compared to SC:R
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I'm not sure I understood. Do you think the organizers don't interact with each other and exchange sources? It's kinda confusing, as Brain and ZZZero for example are already exchanging resources as best as they can. In my knowledge only very, very few BW organizers tried to shield their project from anyone else, we did and do network heavily. The BW community is microscopic in terms of people actually doing more than #thoughtsandprayers. The biggest obstacle is demographics, people who are willing to lift the weight also do have jobs and families, there's simply nobody there to replace the old guard. As long as that's the way, there's also no option to form a super-organisation to rule them all. I could only imagine to spend the little spare time I have negotiating with the self-claimed business side of esports, it'd probably take ages to find out who's a serious person and who's just some sort of intern with aspirations.
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The KSL may not be a good example to use here. Cruiser had mentioned that there is significant doubt in Korea about the KSL continuing beyond Season 4. Whether that happens or not is uncertain, but requesting ESL to boost the foreign BW scene while the Korean BW scene is possibly downsizing may be a case of putting the carriage before the horse.
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Just want to fact-check and mention that Secret hasn't won TI.
 The International
As much as I'd love to see BW given the treatment you describe, I just can't see it happening. Sentimentality for a foundational esport is unlikely to drive investing money and time into a game that isn't making inroads into a younger generation or seeing an escalation in viewership. Quake can at least appeal to history and tradition with ESL for a position at Katowice, which I don't see BW making.
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South Korea2105 Posts
On January 22 2020 06:33 PhoenixVoid wrote:Just want to fact-check and mention that Secret hasn't won TI. The InternationalAs much as I'd love to see BW given the treatment you describe, I just can't see it happening. Sentimentality for a foundational esport is unlikely to drive investing money and time into a game that isn't making inroads into a younger generation or seeing an escalation in viewership. Quake can at least appeal to history and tradition with ESL for a position at Katowice, which I don't see BW making.
oh, ure right, my bad
nonetheless, an aoe2 roster? really?
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On January 21 2020 19:05 Ziggy wrote:
Brood War has virtually the same following in South Korea as SC2 does worldwide.
Do you really mean that? I'm very surprised. How many viewers does KSL or ASL have?
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South Korea2105 Posts
On January 22 2020 19:20 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2020 19:05 Ziggy wrote:
Brood War has virtually the same following in South Korea as SC2 does worldwide.
Do you really mean that? I'm very surprised. How many viewers does KSL or ASL have?
KSL has been a damp squib. The ASL used to hit ~350k live views for the finals. Hard to gauge the metrics now, cause it's made its way back onto cable TV with Afreeca's deal with SBS like 2 years ago or so, and as a result online viewership has dropped to sub 200k for the finals. But, yes, the popularity of BW in SK is comparable to SC2 worldwide (could actually be even higher, though don't quote me on that).
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South Korea2105 Posts
On January 22 2020 03:11 GeckoXp wrote:
I'm not sure I understood. Do you think the organizers don't interact with each other and exchange sources? It's kinda confusing, as Brain and ZZZero for example are already exchanging resources as best as they can. In my knowledge only very, very few BW organizers tried to shield their project from anyone else, we did and do network heavily. The BW community is microscopic in terms of people actually doing more than #thoughtsandprayers. The biggest obstacle is demographics, people who are willing to lift the weight also do have jobs and families, there's simply nobody there to replace the old guard. As long as that's the way, there's also no option to form a super-organisation to rule them all. I could only imagine to spend the little spare time I have negotiating with the self-claimed business side of esports, it'd probably take ages to find out who's a serious person and who's just some sort of intern with aspirations.
You'd need a third party that has no intrinsic connection to any of the tours / events / whatever we have right now. Again, baby steps. Accessibility is one of the main issues I've outlined as possibly something that should be addressed. The simplest solution would be to launch something akin to http://sponbbang.com or http://aligulac.com but for foreign Brood War to help keep track of what's been going on. It'd need to come with a legible calendar that's kept up to date. Obviously it is going to require the community to get involved, that's the whole gist of my musings.
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On January 22 2020 20:23 Ziggy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2020 19:20 sneakyfox wrote:On January 21 2020 19:05 Ziggy wrote:
Brood War has virtually the same following in South Korea as SC2 does worldwide.
Do you really mean that? I'm very surprised. How many viewers does KSL or ASL have? KSL has been a damp squib. The ASL used to hit ~350k live views for the finals. Hard to gauge the metrics now, cause it's made its way back onto cable TV with Afreeca's deal with SBS like 2 years ago or so, and as a result online viewership has dropped to sub 200k for the finals. But, yes, the popularity of BW in SK is comparable to SC2 worldwide (could actually be even higher, though don't quote me on that).
WOW. I had no idea viewership was that high. That's insane. And yes that does sound a lot higher than SC2 worldwide. A good SC2 finals has like 80k viewers I think - not peak, but average.
Do you know how many teens watch BW? Or are viewers mainly those who remember the game from the glory days?
Now I can't help wonder why Kespa doesn't just start over with teamhouses and everything. Surely with that many viewers there is room for it?
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South Korea2105 Posts
On January 22 2020 20:34 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2020 20:23 Ziggy wrote:On January 22 2020 19:20 sneakyfox wrote:On January 21 2020 19:05 Ziggy wrote:
Brood War has virtually the same following in South Korea as SC2 does worldwide.
Do you really mean that? I'm very surprised. How many viewers does KSL or ASL have? KSL has been a damp squib. The ASL used to hit ~350k live views for the finals. Hard to gauge the metrics now, cause it's made its way back onto cable TV with Afreeca's deal with SBS like 2 years ago or so, and as a result online viewership has dropped to sub 200k for the finals. But, yes, the popularity of BW in SK is comparable to SC2 worldwide (could actually be even higher, though don't quote me on that). WOW. I had no idea viewership was that high. That's insane. And yes that does sound a lot higher than SC2 worldwide. A good SC2 finals has like 80k viewers I think - not peak, but average. Do you know how many teens watch BW? Or are viewers mainly those who remember the game from the glory days? Now I can't help wonder why Kespa doesn't just start over with teamhouses and everything. Surely with that many viewers there is room for it?
considering their marketing efforts have been focused on younger audiences, I reckon it's mainly the oldtimers for now
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On January 22 2020 19:20 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2020 19:05 Ziggy wrote:
Brood War has virtually the same following in South Korea as SC2 does worldwide.
Do you really mean that? I'm very surprised. How many viewers does KSL or ASL have?
Not sure how accurate escharts.com is but in comparison:
Afreeca Starleague Season 8 | Date: 30.06.19 - 01.09.19:
Prize Pool: $67 340 | Peak Viewers: 49 267 | Hours Watched: 677 527 | Average Viewers:14 493
WCS Summer 2019 | Date: 12.07.19 - 14.07.19 :
Prize Pool: $100 000 | Peak Viewers: 51 812 | Hours Watched: 778 642 | Average Viewers: 25 530
WCS Fall 2019 | Date: 06.09.19 - 08.09.19 :
Prize Pool: $100 000 | Peak Viewers: 41 813 | Hours Watched: 670 405 | Average Viewers: 22 041
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South Korea2105 Posts
On January 22 2020 20:45 Sd13 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2020 19:20 sneakyfox wrote:On January 21 2020 19:05 Ziggy wrote:
Brood War has virtually the same following in South Korea as SC2 does worldwide.
Do you really mean that? I'm very surprised. How many viewers does KSL or ASL have? Not sure how accurate escharts.com is but in comparison: Afreeca Starleague Season 8 | Date: 30.06.19 - 01.09.19: Prize Pool: $67 340 | Peak Viewers: 49 267 | Hours Watched: 677 527 | Average Viewers:14 493 WCS Summer 2019 | Date: 12.07.19 - 14.07.19 : Prize Pool: $100 000 | Peak Viewers: 51 812 | Hours Watched: 778 642 | Average Viewers: 25 530 WCS Fall 2019 | Date: 06.09.19 - 08.09.19 : Prize Pool: $100 000 | Peak Viewers: 41 813 | Hours Watched: 670 405 | Average Viewers: 22 041
not accurate at all since the ASL gets most of its views through restreams
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South Korea2105 Posts
for afreeca.tv metrics its best to use http://afreehp.kr though it only launched sometime last year so it doesnt have data going as far back as ud want
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A lot of complex issues has been touched by Mr Ziggy. There are a lot of reasons why it's happening - but yea, it's a bit sad that we are left alone and noone wants to make tournament for this amazing game by themself. There are no companies initiatives, only huge passionates and community is doing something for the scene.
But if we will compare our situation to before remastered I think it's much better now - we have our own "WCG" by Mr. Brain - we have consistant league [BSL], we have teamligues, nationleagues, individual tournaments - it's not bad at all - specially if we will compare it to the past few years. I only hope that there will be a lot more content producers, because I don't know how long people who are creating all these events will hold on. I can only say about myself, that I no longer have a energy to run BSL, it's taking too much time, money and dedication. Of course I will finish what I obligated myself to. But that's why I hope there will be more and more content creators, who will take responsiblity to keep scene alive - when we will go for well deserved retirement.
Also it would be great, if some popular streamers would play in SC:BW once a while.
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South Korea2105 Posts
On January 22 2020 22:06 ZZZero.O wrote:
A lot of complex issues has been touched by Mr Ziggy. There are a lot of reasons why it's happening - but yea, it's a bit sad that we are left alone and noone wants to make tournament for this amazing game by themself. There are no companies initiatives, only huge passionates and community is doing something for the scene.
But if we will compare our situation to before remastered I think it's much better now - we have our own "WCG" by Mr. Brain - we have consistant league [BSL], we have teamligues, nationleagues, individual tournaments - it's not bad at all - specially if we will compare it to the past few years. I only hope that there will be a lot more content producers, because I don't know how long people who are creating all these events will hold on. I can only say about myself, that I no longer have a energy to run BSL, it's taking too much time, money and dedication. Of course I will finish what I obligated myself to. But that's why I hope there will be more and more content creators, who will take responsiblity to keep scene alive - when we will go for well deserved retirement.
Also it would be great, if some popular streamers would play in SC:BW once a while.
I fear you're missing the point. While you are nonetheless correct that the survival of our scene relies on passionate people willing to commit their own resources, I was trying to draw attention to the fact that 'pooling' said resources is necessary if we hope to grow. Finding a way to operate as part of something 'bigger' is the way forward. And it doesn't entail you, or Qikz, or Rus_brain, or whoever, dropping everything you've done so far to invest in a joint venture - I think it's about finding a way for all the tournaments to tie into something bigger. And even if it only results in a coherent ELO / MMR / Glicko ranking for the time being, that is still a good starting point that can then be built upon. I think this is where 'pooling' those resources comes in - I can't code. But I'm proficient in other areas... That goes for everyone. Some people are good at writing. Others are good at PR, marketing, casting, pitching ideas, drawing sponsors in. Put all those skills together and boom, you (well, not you, not me - the scene - you get the point) have got an esports product you can try to sell.
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United Kingdom12021 Posts
On January 22 2020 22:06 ZZZero.O wrote:
A lot of complex issues has been touched by Mr Ziggy. There are a lot of reasons why it's happening - but yea, it's a bit sad that we are left alone and noone wants to make tournament for this amazing game by themself. There are no companies initiatives, only huge passionates and community is doing something for the scene.
But if we will compare our situation to before remastered I think it's much better now - we have our own "WCG" by Mr. Brain - we have consistant league [BSL], we have teamligues, nationleagues, individual tournaments - it's not bad at all - specially if we will compare it to the past few years. I only hope that there will be a lot more content producers, because I don't know how long people who are creating all these events will hold on. I can only say about myself, that I no longer have a energy to run BSL, it's taking too much time, money and dedication. Of course I will finish what I obligated myself to. But that's why I hope there will be more and more content creators, who will take responsiblity to keep scene alive - when we will go for well deserved retirement.
Also it would be great, if some popular streamers would play in SC:BW once a while.
In terms of STPL I can see myself going for many more years but I can echo just how tiring it is to run tournaments. I get home from work and I'm either casting for 3-4 hours or making stuff for my casts or help organising all the admin and stuff.
I think it'd be amazing if we could somehow get some big community effort together. I tried getting people to sign up to Twitter so we could get more retweets going and things like that as it promotes growth and it fell over like a damp squib. Any effort that gets organised count me in.
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On January 22 2020 08:21 Ziggy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2020 06:33 PhoenixVoid wrote:Just want to fact-check and mention that Secret hasn't won TI. The InternationalAs much as I'd love to see BW given the treatment you describe, I just can't see it happening. Sentimentality for a foundational esport is unlikely to drive investing money and time into a game that isn't making inroads into a younger generation or seeing an escalation in viewership. Quake can at least appeal to history and tradition with ESL for a position at Katowice, which I don't see BW making. oh, ure right, my bad nonetheless, an aoe2 roster? really?
A brood war roster is (would be) equally as ridiculous, tbh
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On January 23 2020 08:13 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2020 08:21 Ziggy wrote:On January 22 2020 06:33 PhoenixVoid wrote:Just want to fact-check and mention that Secret hasn't won TI. The InternationalAs much as I'd love to see BW given the treatment you describe, I just can't see it happening. Sentimentality for a foundational esport is unlikely to drive investing money and time into a game that isn't making inroads into a younger generation or seeing an escalation in viewership. Quake can at least appeal to history and tradition with ESL for a position at Katowice, which I don't see BW making. oh, ure right, my bad nonetheless, an aoe2 roster? really? A brood war roster is (would be) equally as ridiculous, tbh
Secret.SoMa 
e: Secret.Secret !!!!
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South Korea2105 Posts
On January 23 2020 08:13 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2020 08:21 Ziggy wrote:On January 22 2020 06:33 PhoenixVoid wrote:Just want to fact-check and mention that Secret hasn't won TI. The InternationalAs much as I'd love to see BW given the treatment you describe, I just can't see it happening. Sentimentality for a foundational esport is unlikely to drive investing money and time into a game that isn't making inroads into a younger generation or seeing an escalation in viewership. Quake can at least appeal to history and tradition with ESL for a position at Katowice, which I don't see BW making. oh, ure right, my bad nonetheless, an aoe2 roster? really? A brood war roster is (would be) equally as ridiculous, tbh
A foreign brood war roster? Probably. A Korean roster? Considering how popular it is over there? Absolutely not. Imagine how much exposure you'd get for having even just one player in the ASL. You'd also be setting a precedent for other orgs to maybe follow suit and it wouldn't even set you back that much. Given the fact there are no teams investing, I reckon plenty of ASL/KSL caliber players would jump on the opportunity to represent a major org even if for just a flat 500$/month.
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EPT
