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Active: 1219 users

Winning, improving and an enigmatic lady.

Blogs > coffeesession
Post a Reply
coffeesession
Profile Blog Joined August 2019
65 Posts
December 08 2019 23:52 GMT
#1
This is just my view. It's subjective. It's about a very interesting and practically relevant dichotomy, with winning, real results and outcomes on one side, and process, growth orientation and improvement on the other.

It's a dichotomy I've struggled, and still struggle, quite a lot. I thought I've gotten it right when I read The Art of Learning by J. Waitzkin. He described it in a succinct, accurate and excellently clear manner. It's a very tricky point, hard to get as more than just an intellectual concept, to get it right in practice with successful consistency.

My outcomes, over time, demonstrated that I had significant issues and misguided derailments related to balancing this dichotomy and for a long time, I wasn't even aware of it.

This piece is, in small part, me working on this area, improving my understanding and fixing the issues, and in large part, a piece that was supposed to be really short but which ended up getting extended due to new ideas.


+ Show Spoiler +
P.S. I absolutely don't have the time to proof read it. Not like I'd do it normally, I just decided to write some stuff and share it.



Winning, improving and an enigmatic lady.

Real outcomes vs improving. Winning vs improving. Current state of mind vs current skills. Win and improve simultaneously vs strictly one at a time. General dichotomies. Balancing them well is important. It's strategic.

The rate of improvement is cold and indifferent when they're off balance. Likewise, the rate of improvement presents a much more welcoming and generous attitude when these dichotomies are well balanced.


In this piece, let's meet the very charming and curious lady who can also, despite being known for her stability in the pathways of reason, seem very moody. In reality, it's much more accurate to say she's enigmatic, with a lot of depth and nuance, not to be understood easily, and possibly never completely.

Let's introduce ourselves to the dichotomy of winning vs improving. This lady is quite nuanced in her manners but in her nature, there's something severe, too, not to be trifled with. Be real and to the point but simultaneously, do well with all the nuances and subtleties, too. She'll smile readily and generously. You're a welcome guest.

Be very real and to the point but close-minded, blind to anything that recedes from the concrete block to the more abstract architecture, this lady will not be very pleased. She'll find the constricted, rigid corridors you hold for your thoughts, too narrow for her to endure, a degrading torture to try complying with those. She'll retain only the most basic of niceties and she may recommend you to her book-averse friend. However, it's doubtful she'll be willing to see you again.

Be very well-versed with imaginative creativity, nuance and subtlety but rather unreal, ever missing anything concrete when asked or when needed, this lady will probably not be very pleased, too. She'll find the abstract, amorphous ways of your cognition and doing to be too devoid of anything solid to hold onto. She'll leave, feeling weird, amused perhaps. She may suggest you to her friend who doesn't mind being slightly, or perhaps not so slightly, off base. She will, however, treat you with similar seriousness that you offer to a fellow she tends to respect quite a lot, the real outcomes. That is, not very seriously.

Naturally, it's quite preferable you develop yourself to be at the level of the first guest. The one who was both realistic and imaginative at the same time, as opposed to the level of the two gentleman who came after.

They were both quite limited as they could only develop well in one part of the dichotomy and not the other. Thus, the part that was starved of proper development was derailing the part that was very well developed, bringing their total level way lower as a result. Now that we've covered introductions with the enigmatic lady whom we wish to get to know, let's move on to an example.


Let's say you've made a decision. You play to improve, not to win. You don't care about losing or winning. If you win but don't improve, it's a defeat to you. Conversely, losing but improving draws victory on your paper. If you improve enough, winning is the natural side effect. This is the reasoning powering this growth-oriented mindset.

What would you say, does that work? Say you really go at it and keep at it for say, 3 months. Does it take you further than reasonable alternatives?

The problem is, are you confronting yourself with this approach? It's rather extreme. If you say winning doesn't matter, you can amount loss after loss after loss and feel no pain, no frustration. You're improving, it's a process, so it's fine. Are you sure? Is it? Really?

If you're not confronting your defeats, directly, how can you actually match your improvement needs to your current, real level and real outcomes? If you're not confronting your defeats, how can you work on your real improvement needs?

How can you verify that what you think you need to work on is not off-base, miscalculated or derailed by a slight, albeit strategic error?

This approach tends to work very poorly. At least that's my current view. It's a more subtle version of a cop out. Trying to make improving into something easy. The real problems you actually need to work on now are never properly identified, nor do you struggle with that with which you really need to struggle and you keep failing to even begin figuring out the stuff that you truly need to figure out right now.

The general direction it tends to take on, is that of our third, more imaginative gentleman. The one who's in more of a long-distance relationship with reality.

Depending on how off-balance it is, excluding other influencing factors, it tends to create improvement path that grows on it's own, as if just for its own sake and remains poorly related, if not completely alienated, from the real outcomes, real problems and real work that needs to be done. Even if it is as challenging and hard, it's off sync.

Aside from that derailment, it can easily be intensified by the excuses, justifications, denials, lying to oneself and the like, to avoid real challenges and walk the easy path, as its lack of close eye on real outcomes leaves it vulnerable and exposed to these.


Well, let's say you've made a decision and it's very different. It's the complete opposite approach to the focusing on improving route. Fuck all the improving over time and process-oriented crap. There is a process, of course but winning now comes first. Winning is what matters in the end, so it is what matters when you start, too. I have to win, more and more, now. Real outcomes, no bullshit, no promises, real outcomes, better and better, now.

I just do everything and give it my all to win, now. When I win enough times, naturally I'll improve. Not only will I improve, I'll improve directly at winning, too. I will never lose touch with real outcomes. I won't be one of those fantasy-land, dreaming weirdos who think they're gonna somehow get real good by some wacky scheme of re-inventing the wheel of improving.

Fuckheads. Can't just get their ass over to do any real work on their shit. Enjoy your dreamland, dipshits. It's the only place they can find solace, given the immeasurable and infinite level of failing they're able to reach with anything real.

With or without the sharpness of tongue and less than courteous remarks, this is the general reasoning behind this approach. Real outcomes have to be now, in some form or shape, or they'll never be there.

What do you think? Does that work? Does that lead, over time, to meaningful, real outcomes? Reaching mastery levels in the discipline of choice?

What if you just keep losing? Since your primary focus is on real outcomes, how do you maintain perspective when they're not there? You'll just keep calm and keep adjusting until they are there? What if you keep calm and really keep adjusting for a long time and there are almost no real outcomes, no real improvements to be seen?

You're just gonna keep adjusting it until it works, like Edison, you'll just find the 10 000 ways that don't work, before finding the one that works, and then the real outcomes will be there?

What if you do it for a really long time and the line of real improvements is flat as it was, occupying almost the same vertical geometry as the timeline of you going at it?

What if there are real improvements but they're not enough? What then? You're just gonna focus harder on winning, and try way harder, and work way more, and then still work more and then some more? What if works for a while but then it's just not nearly enough? You still only have 24 hours per day, is that your version of being realistic and attaining real outcomes?

This approach tends to work very poorly, too. At least that's my view. It's actually not realistic. It prioritizes and focuses on being realistic and keeping to the real outcomes and yet, ironically, it's unrealistic. It starts with a misguided and unrealistic notion that you improve real outcomes by focusing on real outcomes.

By definition, real outcomes come from real causes. There's all this quantum mechanics stuff and that's fine but practically speaking, real causes come before real outcomes. By inference, it makes sense that real causes must involve a real process and the real outcomes are at the end of the chain of that process.

If any element before the last one - the real outcomes - is not functioning properly or missing, how can such a process produce real outcomes?


Let's say you've made a decision and your approach doesn't follow, or even resemble, either of the two approaches above. Instead, it integrates them and applies one, the other, or both, when it makes sense, where it makes sense, how it makes sense, to degrees that make sense, based on whatever the criteria and variables of the individual predisposition, training, environment and general conditions happen to be.

The reasoning is that neither real outcomes nor improvement process represent a complete enough approach but even more to the point, it's an unexplored terrain, full of unknowns to be figured out. There's no just mindlessly going at real outcomes with self-contradictory claims of being "realistic". Just as there is no sheltered improvement path that somehow doesn't need to be in direct, close and continuous way of meeting with, and adjusting to, real outcomes.

There's no reliable way to avoid the necessity of struggling and failing a lot in order to figure out a much of it, most of it, or almost all of it, sometimes. This approach isn't really focused on any one element in particular. It's focused on configuring and adjusting all the elements into something, into a way of going about it that actually works well in practice, for the given individual, based on precise individual needs, preferences, predispositions etc.

In other words, winning and improving, real outcomes and the process, being real and growth, it is all a tailor-made suit. There is no magic, universal way that works well for everyone and anyone. There are many ways that fit somewhat alright, somewhat but visibly off too, or completely don't fit, based on a type of a person, what kind of a learner they are, what way of developing themselves works for them.

Regardless of that assessment, even when it fits somewhat alright, it still involves many adjustments and tweaks, often tricky ones, easy to miss or get wrong. To actually make it work for that particular person, in order to get a satisfying, quality rate of improving and learning, there is no shortcut or some super easy, prefabricated solution to just copy and apply. At least that's my view.

It's figuring it out for oneself and failing thousands of times on the way. However, in this process of figuring it out for oneself, one becomes more like the first gentleman in our story. That is, the fellow who isn't just realistic, blunt and to the point or just imaginative, creative, well-versed with all the nuances and useful abstractions. He's real, to the point but at the same time, he does well with all the nuances and subtleties, too.

He has a pretty fine relationship with our enigmatic lady, the one kind enough to represent the dichotomy for this piece. It's good to keep this relationship fine and well, as this is a key factor in attaining real outcomes and real improvements on the way, and this is accomplished by the acts of balancing and individually figuring it out in practice.


*****
TheGloob
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
97 Posts
December 09 2019 06:25 GMT
#2
this post makes me question my reading comprehension skills. and i don't like that. and i'm confused. but i think you're telling me i should ladder today...
CHEONSOYUN
Profile Joined August 2017
528 Posts
December 09 2019 16:49 GMT
#3
it's readable but only just.
JAEDONG...!!! EFFORT IS ANGRY. ZERG...?!
Gorgonoth
Profile Joined August 2017
United States468 Posts
December 09 2019 20:16 GMT
#4
If I was on the board of the ACT looking for upper percentile reading comprehension passages, I'd hire you.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25553 Posts
December 09 2019 23:56 GMT
#5
On December 10 2019 05:16 Gorgonoth wrote:
If I was on the board of the ACT looking for upper percentile reading comprehension passages, I'd hire you.

Haha that actually got a legitimate lol from me.

Perhaps Shakespeare was wrong in proclaiming brevity as the soul of wit, although reading this post I’m rather disinclined fo disagree with William.

There’s nothing advice wise here that’s terrible OP so don’t want to be mean but it’s repeating the same basic mantra over and over again in slightly different ways. Maybe less of that and more real-world examples of your approach, or potential hurdles and how to overcome them and how you’ve done it and it would read way better.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-11 04:59:51
December 10 2019 06:15 GMT
#6
Nothing wrong with the content indeed, but anytime someone writes like that all I can think of is the fact that the self help industry makes billions off of people by repeating platitudes. You could probably write $20 books, run $2000 seminars with that. Shia Lebeouf could've told you all that for free in fewer words, though.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25553 Posts
December 10 2019 12:02 GMT
#7
On December 10 2019 15:15 Djzapz wrote:
Nothing wrong with the content indeed, but anytime someone writes like that all I can think of is the fact that the self help industry makes billions off of people by repeating platitudes. You could probably write $20 books, run $2000 with that. Shia Lebeouf could've told you all that for free in fewer words, though.

Haha I’d initially posted ‘Welcome to TL Shia Lebeouf’ but apparently somehow screwed up that simple act. I was drunk though.

I guess there is something in zoning in on one thing and simplifying an increasingly complex and confusing world, that said it is also a fertile hunting ground for charlatans.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16737 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-11 02:26:31
December 11 2019 02:25 GMT
#8
On December 09 2019 08:52 coffeesession wrote:
He has a pretty fine relationship with our enigmatic lady, the one kind enough to represent the dichotomy for this piece. It's good to keep this relationship fine and well, as this is a key factor in attaining real outcomes and real improvements on the way, and this is accomplished by the acts of balancing and individually figuring it out in practice.

There's a lady who's sure ... All that glitters is gold ... And she's buying a stairway to heaven ... When she gets there she knows .... If the stores are all closed ... With a word she can get what she came for
.
..
...
... and she's buying a stairway to heaven
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25553 Posts
December 11 2019 02:27 GMT
#9
On December 11 2019 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2019 08:52 coffeesession wrote:
He has a pretty fine relationship with our enigmatic lady, the one kind enough to represent the dichotomy for this piece. It's good to keep this relationship fine and well, as this is a key factor in attaining real outcomes and real improvements on the way, and this is accomplished by the acts of balancing and individually figuring it out in practice.

There's a lady who's sure ... All that glitters is gold ... And she's buying a stairway to heaven ... When she gets there she knows .... If the stores are all closed ... With a word she can get what she came for
.
..
...
... and she's buying a stairway to heaven

I’m just jealous I don’t have my own enigmatic lady really
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
December 11 2019 05:00 GMT
#10
On December 10 2019 21:02 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2019 15:15 Djzapz wrote:
Nothing wrong with the content indeed, but anytime someone writes like that all I can think of is the fact that the self help industry makes billions off of people by repeating platitudes. You could probably write $20 books, run $2000 with that. Shia Lebeouf could've told you all that for free in fewer words, though.

Haha I’d initially posted ‘Welcome to TL Shia Lebeouf’ but apparently somehow screwed up that simple act. I was drunk though.

I guess there is something in zoning in on one thing and simplifying an increasingly complex and confusing world, that said it is also a fertile hunting ground for charlatans.

So you're telling me that while drunk you almost made the decision of something that I wrote while sober but you held it back? Man I'm out of control. :D
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
coffeesession
Profile Blog Joined August 2019
65 Posts
December 11 2019 11:04 GMT
#11
Thank you for your comments and perspectives. It was experimental, with intent to expound on the nuances of a concept I find very, very, very interesting. Useful to inform one's self-improvement next steps a bit better. Got expanded by a slur of ideas to try that I had in the moment. Do not regret that at all. It was interesting to try and write it out that way.

And to not overly care about rigidly trying to write a perfect piece That's a recipe to write absolutely nothing at all. Or expand the ever growing folder of "needs editing" that realistically will never be edited, or even opened for that matter.

However, I appreciate opinions on how this piece provided, among other things, quite a lot to wish for in terms of clarity and brevity. It'll be more a part of consideration for the following writings.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25553 Posts
December 12 2019 14:26 GMT
#12
On December 11 2019 14:00 Djzapz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2019 21:02 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 10 2019 15:15 Djzapz wrote:
Nothing wrong with the content indeed, but anytime someone writes like that all I can think of is the fact that the self help industry makes billions off of people by repeating platitudes. You could probably write $20 books, run $2000 with that. Shia Lebeouf could've told you all that for free in fewer words, though.

Haha I’d initially posted ‘Welcome to TL Shia Lebeouf’ but apparently somehow screwed up that simple act. I was drunk though.

I guess there is something in zoning in on one thing and simplifying an increasingly complex and confusing world, that said it is also a fertile hunting ground for charlatans.

So you're telling me that while drunk you almost made the decision of something that I wrote while sober but you held it back? Man I'm out of control. :D

Oh I posted it on another blog lol, must have been more drunk than I thought.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25553 Posts
December 12 2019 14:32 GMT
#13
On December 11 2019 20:04 coffeesession wrote:
Thank you for your comments and perspectives. It was experimental, with intent to expound on the nuances of a concept I find very, very, very interesting. Useful to inform one's self-improvement next steps a bit better. Got expanded by a slur of ideas to try that I had in the moment. Do not regret that at all. It was interesting to try and write it out that way.

And to not overly care about rigidly trying to write a perfect piece That's a recipe to write absolutely nothing at all. Or expand the ever growing folder of "needs editing" that realistically will never be edited, or even opened for that matter.

However, I appreciate opinions on how this piece provided, among other things, quite a lot to wish for in terms of clarity and brevity. It'll be more a part of consideration for the following writings.

Structure cuts out the need for quite so much editing after the fact, least in my experience. Granted I don’t write much these days and I feel my mental health conditions actually dictate how I approach such things in a way doesn’t necessarily apply to other people.

But yeah, nobody becomes a good writer without actually writing, so I respect you just doing it and putting it out there. Plus your reply was polite and civil, although I think in retrospect I wasn’t particularly in some of my posts so apologies for that.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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