• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:34
CEST 08:34
KST 15:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)10Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week0Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer12Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."2Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.8Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)14
StarCraft 2
General
Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Rogue EWC 2025 Hype Video! Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025) Rain's Behind the Scenes Storytime Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer
Tourneys
$5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 SOOP Starcraft Global #22 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] Darkgrid Layout
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recent recommended BW games FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - WB Finals & LBR3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Echoes of Revolution and Separation
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
NHL Playoffs 2024 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 30668 users

Played some Tooth and Tail

Blogs > BEARDiaguz
Post a Reply
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
September 24 2017 18:16 GMT
#1
(or, ‘Meat’s back on the menu, boys’)

Year or two ago a mate informed me of an RTS lurking in one of E3’s murkier corners called Tooth and Tail, said it seemed like the sort of thing that’s right up my alley. Discovering they were in an early alpha stage I burst into the developer’s Discord and waved my Starcraft cred about like a lawman’s badge which duly secured access. One swift Steam download later I opened it, curious to discover what rich new ideas so intrigued my associate, trembling with anticipation at the myriad of earthly delights to come. Immediately I was greeted with controller prompts. Oh dear. TnT is an RTS designed to be played on consoles, which feels like designing a casino that goes on the sun. To the developers credit (Pocketwatch games) it’s as solid an attempt can be made, focusing on a minimalist control scheme and fast paced matches lasting about 5 minutes or so. Allow me to describe how simple this all is in one paragraph or less

You control a rodent commander fellow who runs around a simple isometric 2d battlefield. Your HQ/resource centres are called Gristmills and you position farms around them to make money. You spend money on huts that automatically spawn units. One button summons all your dudes to a location, a second button calls only one set of dudes, hold either button down to force move them, tap it to attack-move. If you’re near a particular enemy these buttons allow you to focus that target. You start a game with a loadout of up to 6 different unit huts and defence structures and if your commander dies they quickly respawn at a Gristmill. There’s 24 different types of dude hut/defensive structure all with their strengths and weaknesses so it’s all about trying to pick the right ones and not getting them all killed. That’s it. That’s all Tooth and Tail is.

Now I’m an RTS guy to my core. Cut me and I bleed strategy (in Real Time) which is why a minimalistic approach doesn’t work for me at all. In fact it’s incredibly frustrating. Since I can only control the commander I can’t micro or macro with the sort of precision I’d prefer. Units make themselves and for the most part micro themselves. Jeez, I guess you have to sacrifice an enormous amount of functionality to get an RTS to work for controllers. It’s almost like it’s a fundamentally awful idea. I’m also not a fan of the whole ‘choose your unit loadout before a match’ mechanic, it’s very daunting to choose from the 24 provided which strikes as going completely against the design ethos of simple and accessible.

I suppose I can see the appeal here. For most people playing an RTS is like being forced to juggle dynamite, perhaps scaling back the level of entry is acceptable. And to the games credit the fundamentals of RTS are still there, ie scouting, composition, timing, map awareness, high ground, that sort of thing. But in this pursuit it sacrifices an awful lot of depth, and not just mechanically. I’m incredibly fond of Company of Heroes 1 and 2 and those are games I can play with a mug of tea in one hand. What kills it for me is simply that it’s far too shallow. You just make a bunch of units, run around with minimal effort and somebody wins in a few minutes. I don’t think I can enjoy an RTS where I can’t directly give commands to units and to do that effectively you’re going to need a Mouse and its partner the Keyboard.

I hardly played the game and that was that. Or so I thought. TnT got it’s full release the other day and it was downloadable in my Steam library. I guess I got a release copy for free because I played the alpha and hated it? Humblebrag of the century I know. Guess I’ll explore the single player some, see if I hate that too. Shocking plot twist, I almost liked it!

TnT’s setting is that of a world of adorable anthropomorphised woodland creatures engaged in a hearty civil dispute over who should be turned into liverwurst. It’s a squirrel-eat-falcon world out there, or something. Bizarro-world Redwall, if you will. There’s this juxtaposition of early industrial era optimism with the brutally grim reality of the carnivore land that is the animal kingdom, all viewed through a quasi-Russian lens. No matter how enlightened or developed society gets, it can only function because someone’s eating someone else. The actual story itself isn’t much to talk about, some characters all want to devour each other and rebuild society in their vision (amusingly the educated revolutionary chaps are working to install a capitalist democracy, har har), it’s the backdrop what makes it compelling. I’ll confess I didn’t actually finish it, I got about three quarters through and have packed it in out of the sheer frustration of having to engage in gameplay. Maybe if you beat the final level it sends you a cake? Dunno, don’t care.

Some nice art though.

***
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10125 Posts
September 24 2017 22:52 GMT
#2
I was an alpha tester super early into the game. it was cool but i felt like the map imbalances with it made it unplayable for me where one player would have an easy economy while the other was stuck on one base or something.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
ddengster
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Singapore129 Posts
September 25 2017 06:10 GMT
#3
Anything else you disliked about TnT? Have you played competitive deeply enough to give some conclusions about it?
Check out NEO Impossible Bosses, RTS-MOBA boss rush at http://neoimpossiblebosses.coder-ddeng.com
Immaterial
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada510 Posts
September 26 2017 03:13 GMT
#4
On September 25 2017 07:52 FlaShFTW wrote:
I was an alpha tester super early into the game. it was cool but i felt like the map imbalances with it made it unplayable for me where one player would have an easy economy while the other was stuck on one base or something.


I haven't played the game but I've watched some tournament matches and this is exactly my impression. I don't like the randomly generated maps as it seems the map will strictly favour one player in far too many of the matches. I think it looks fun as an entry level RTS for people who lack the mechanical skill necessary to play Starcraft at a reasonable level, but I don't think I'll buy the game myself. Still, I'm happy to see any RTS succeed at this point even if it is a somewhat neutered version of one.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10125 Posts
September 26 2017 23:38 GMT
#5
On September 26 2017 12:13 Immaterial wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2017 07:52 FlaShFTW wrote:
I was an alpha tester super early into the game. it was cool but i felt like the map imbalances with it made it unplayable for me where one player would have an easy economy while the other was stuck on one base or something.


I haven't played the game but I've watched some tournament matches and this is exactly my impression. I don't like the randomly generated maps as it seems the map will strictly favour one player in far too many of the matches. I think it looks fun as an entry level RTS for people who lack the mechanical skill necessary to play Starcraft at a reasonable level, but I don't think I'll buy the game myself. Still, I'm happy to see any RTS succeed at this point even if it is a somewhat neutered version of one.

im happy for it too and the game was fun. but as someone who came from starcraft, that was one of the first qualms that i had about the game with "map imbalance sucks in this game". Their response was "we wanted to keep the maps fresh and unique so we have RNG maps instead of pre-set maps". That was what really killed the game for me. Obviously, map imbalances create unique strategies that both players need to incorporate to win the game, but when a map is so catered to one side or the other, it's like, ok well I know my opponent literally has one strategy they can possibly use, I just defend that and win the game.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
Legionnaire
Profile Joined January 2003
Australia4514 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-27 07:53:43
September 27 2017 07:53 GMT
#6
Thats disappointing to hear. I was planning on playing this after seeing artosis seem to enjoy it.

... but its a strategy game... the better player will always win...

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
My hope is one day stupid people will feel the same pain when they talk, as the pain the rest of us feel when we hear them. Twitter: @Legionnaire_au
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
September 27 2017 14:23 GMT
#7
I like the game, it has a solid foundation with some fresh ideas, but the range of mechanics and actually strategy (especially with the randomized maps) is extremely limited. Rush strategies will instant kill you if you pick the wrong units (lizards are insanely strong compared to any other early game unit if target firing), but I guess its not a huge deal considering average match length. The ability to micro individual units and actually using your mouse for something besides left/right click would help this game tremendously.
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10125 Posts
September 28 2017 03:32 GMT
#8
On September 27 2017 16:53 Legionnaire wrote:
Thats disappointing to hear. I was planning on playing this after seeing artosis seem to enjoy it.

... but its a strategy game... the better player will always win...

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

sadly, your picture is literally how i feel on certain maps where it's impossible to grab a 3rd base while your opponent has a free 3rd and a pretty comfortable 4th. and you're sitting there like... welp i need to all in or its game.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
JWD[9]
Profile Blog Joined November 2015
364 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-28 09:56:35
September 28 2017 09:54 GMT
#9
Hey now, wait a second. I see what you did there. Black has so many queens.

On topic: As a more casual player that does not spend 1000h+ in Sc2 I found Tooth and Tail to be a wonderful micro cosmos of an RTS. I finally can talk strategy with others and we can agree on something or test it in a reasonable amount of time, because 90% of the playerbase have near perfect execution. Makes me see how great it must be to play something like Sc2 or BW on this level.
It lacks depth, but for me it was worth the 20 bucks. (I mean, artosis took a game of the #1 player in this game on his second day, while Chip was playing at least since january and has won tournaments(and no, it was not only the random maps fault))
JWD[9]
Profile Blog Joined November 2015
364 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-28 09:56:23
September 28 2017 09:56 GMT
#10
double post sry, meant to edit
Voltz_sc21
Profile Joined August 2015
66 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-28 15:19:08
September 28 2017 15:18 GMT
#11
On September 27 2017 16:53 Legionnaire wrote:
Thats disappointing to hear. I was planning on playing this after seeing artosis seem to enjoy it.

... but its a strategy game... the better player will always win...

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

Save your money. I spent quite a bit of time playing this game since launch. 59 hours to be exact, and am currently claiming the #7 spot globally. At first, I was addicted. It seemed like strategy was quite important, however as I climbed the ranks and my game knowledge grew, the game became shallow. I began to learn there was only 1 viable strategy at the top level, and that was fox rush. It is a unit with the range of a Tempest, and speed of a hellion. Getting this unit out as fast as possible is all every game was about because once you got it, it gained so much value that it paid for itself in dividends. The game designers are incompetent, it took them months to patch this (apparently this has been the go-to strategy since before the game even launched). A shallow metagame like this that a chimpanzee can execute, no thank you.
bITt.mAN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Switzerland3693 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-29 21:13:44
September 29 2017 21:10 GMT
#12
Sad it's not deep (gameplay wise), but come on, the art, the backdrop, the political satire are SO GOOD!


If you want a more (mechanically) Casual RTS, with pixelated graphics (and Soviet undertones), I really recommend trying Command and Conquer 95 ... open-source re-implementation :D (also has Red Alert and Dune 2000)

openra.net



The fun for these, is picking up a new RTS and learning the meta as you go, developing your own strategy, but the mechanical (and player-level) skill-ceilings aren't nearly as high as SC, so you can start winning soon
BW4LYF . . . . . . PM me, I LOVE PMs. . . . . . Long live "NaDa's Body" . . . . . . Fantasy | Bisu/Best | Jaedong . . . . .
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Online Event
00:00
LATAM SC2 League: FINALS
Liquipedia
Replay Cast
00:00
2025 GSL S2 - Playoffs
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 362
Zeus 173
TY 138
JulyZerg 114
PianO 56
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
Noble 11
ivOry 4
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm47
League of Legends
JimRising 666
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K782
PGG 125
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor136
Trikslyr32
Other Games
C9.Mang01129
Mew2King197
Hui .106
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick717
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH324
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2833
League of Legends
• Doublelift5142
• Lourlo1135
• Stunt388
• HappyZerGling97
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
3h 26m
RSL Revival
3h 26m
Harstem vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
WardiTV Invitational
5h 26m
ByuN vs Reynor
Clem vs MaxPax
OSC
5h 56m
Replay Cast
17h 26m
RSL Revival
1d 3h
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 8h
SOOP
2 days
Cure vs Zoun
SC Evo League
2 days
Road to EWC
2 days
[ Show More ]
SOOP Global
2 days
Future vs MaNa
Harstem vs Cham
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
Sziky vs JDConan
Cross vs MadiNho
Hawk vs Bonyth
Circuito Brasileiro de…
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Road to EWC
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
3 days
UltrA vs TBD
Dewalt vs TBD
Replay Cast
5 days
Online Event
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #3 - GSC
2025 GSL S2
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST Open Fall 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.