• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 20:46
CET 02:46
KST 10:46
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns6[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises3Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Starcraft 2 Zerg Coach
Tourneys
WardiTV Winter Cup WardiTV Mondays SC2 AI Tournament 2026 OSC Season 13 World Championship uThermal 2v2 Circuit
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ I would like to say something about StarCraft BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Data analysis on 70 million replays
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Psychological Factors That D…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2199 users

The Failures of SC2 - Page 3

Blogs > EsportsJohn
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
June 08 2017 23:55 GMT
#41
On June 08 2017 19:26 conTAgi0n wrote:
Auto-mining has become an expectation for modern RTS games, and macro mechanics are an alternative that most gamers are willing to accept. Plus you could make the case that psychologically, forgetting to send workers to mine feels like a mistake, whereas remembering to use a macro mechanic feels like a reward.


This is the ironic part. Aside from the very early stages of the game, forgetting to send your workers to mining right away (we'll say you're particularly horrible and delay 20s on every worker), it's nowhere near as punishing as forgetting to inject or drop a MULE (though Blizz has made a few changes in LotV to address that).

And I guess that's the whole appeal of SC2. In a lot of ways, you get instant gratification by remembering to do your macro mechanics occasionally or by barely microing one insanely cost-effective unit into a mineral line and killing the entire thing. But the balance sits on a razor's edge because when your opponent does stuff marginally well, they can just outright kill you. There's not a whole lot of in between (see: Rogue making 20 mutas against soO earlier today and the insta-gg).

On June 09 2017 08:08 ninazerg wrote:
btw, this is not an "argument" or "debate" reply. I'm just saying my thoughts.


I appreciate it! There's a lot of interesting stuff in this reply, most of which I agree with.

This is only half-true. Maybe you were using hyperbole, but you said "literally no number of marine/medic" and I wasn't sure, because it's not cost-effective to break the ramp with marine/medic, but that doesn't mean it literally can't be done. Besides that, there are many situations where the attacker has an advantage, like if a Zerg is sending guardians to hit SCVs from over a cliff, and the units at the bottom of the cliff can't reach them because they're over water.


This is true all the mirror matches in SC1, and also TvZ. The main difficulty for Zerg in TvZ is defending all of the places that Terran can hit them from.


Maybe a bit hyperbolic. This entire article is really a rant, so there's definitely areas where I may have just overstated facts or made up random and quite possibly incorrect concepts (like "a ball is the perfect shape for damage").

However, in the case of how defender's advantage works in SC1, I fundamentally disagree here. In the case of guardians or drop play having an advantage on aggression, this is mostly just a side effect of high ground advantages and unit design (range). If you consider the same example, but both sides are reinforcing and trading continually—we'll say Terran continues to build wraiths while Zerg reinforces with scourge/overlords—the advantage will eventually go in favor of Terran assuming fairly even trades because of the reinforcement distance. Of course, the game is a lot more complicated than this and 3 wraiths could kill all of the scourge, the guardians, and win the game with good enough micro.

In the case of mirror matchups, I again fundamentally disagree here. While PvP is arguably consistently unstable, defenders can take advantage of building placement to soak up damage, and reavers (arguably the most important unit in early game PvP) reinforce MUCH faster for the defending player. In the later portions of the game, it plays out a bit more like SC2, I will admit to that haha. TvT, you insane. The big point I'm trying to make here is that defensive units like reavers, tanks, lurkers, defilers, etc. do an insane job of warding away much larger armies and/or forcing cost-ineffective trades. In addition to the fact that reinforcement takes real time to move across the map (shoutout to Nydus Canal though), it's much harder for the aggressor to match the defender over a long period of time unless they start with a substantial advantage.

The only reason to 'spread your army out' is because you have a numerical superiority that makes such a thing possible. There are some obvious historical examples of this, but let's stick to video games. If you play a game with a supply cap, then it's not possible to have a huge advantage in numbers unless you cripple your opponent early in the game. It stands to reason, then, that if you cannot outnumber your opponent, you will gain a different kind of advantage. I'm not even sure why SC2 has a supply cap, though. It just feels like they were trying to create a retro game with modern game stuff in it, and it didn't work out. Now the object is to just mass the most powerful or composition-correct series of units until you reach 200, and then you have no choice but to attack. This archetype occurs in SC1 frequently, and is not unique to SC2.


I thought about this some too after posting this blog. It was argued at some point that SC2 should raise the cap to 300 to solve the "three base cap" problem, but now that I'm arguing about it from the point of view of critical mass and army size, it kind of makes sense. If you up the supply enough to actually hit the critical mass for SC2 armies, maybe it becomes a better strategy to split your forces up into two huge armies. And how is that different from splitting up small groups?

It's an interesting avenue of thought to go down, but I don't think it matters anymore since LotV already kind of forces you to split up units anyway.

I don't know how hard it is to scout in SC2, but something about this seems amiss.


On the whole, scouting in SC2 is MUCH easier in the mid to late game, but the economy changes in LotV forced a lot more blind tech decisions in the early game, especially for Zerg players who relied on overlord scouting. Other than that, there's a lot of ultra crisis units like oracles, hellions, adepts, and lings that can decimate a mineral line if you don't have things in the proper position or know their trajectory coming into your base. This is true to some degree with units in BW as well, but I feel like it's generally easier to predict and deflect.

I agree with this, mostly. Units should not pack themselves together like sardines. A ball is the perfect shape for taking ranged AoE damage, I'd say. If the ball is made of ranged units against melee units, then the ball is going to be more efficient theoretically. For dealing damage, ranged units are best when situated in an arc, so all of them can fire onto an incoming enemy from all sides. This is especially important for melee units, so that they can all hit at the same time. If melee units attack in a ball, only the units at the front can attack.


Fair.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 05:28:58
June 09 2017 05:28 GMT
#42
On June 09 2017 08:55 EsportsJohn wrote:
However, in the case of how defender's advantage works in SC1, I fundamentally disagree here. In the case of guardians or drop play having an advantage on aggression, this is mostly just a side effect of high ground advantages and unit design (range). If you consider the same example, but both sides are reinforcing and trading continually—we'll say Terran continues to build wraiths while Zerg reinforces with scourge/overlords—the advantage will eventually go in favor of Terran assuming fairly even trades because of the reinforcement distance. Of course, the game is a lot more complicated than this and 3 wraiths could kill all of the scourge, the guardians, and win the game with good enough micro.

In the case of mirror matchups, I again fundamentally disagree here. While PvP is arguably consistently unstable, defenders can take advantage of building placement to soak up damage, and reavers (arguably the most important unit in early game PvP) reinforce MUCH faster for the defending player. In the later portions of the game, it plays out a bit more like SC2, I will admit to that haha. TvT, you insane. The big point I'm trying to make here is that defensive units like reavers, tanks, lurkers, defilers, etc. do an insane job of warding away much larger armies and/or forcing cost-ineffective trades. In addition to the fact that reinforcement takes real time to move across the map (shoutout to Nydus Canal though), it's much harder for the aggressor to match the defender over a long period of time unless they start with a substantial advantage.


I'm talking strictly about mobility. For example, in TvT, if one player goes mostly static defense against a player that has a bunch of dropships, neither one is playing the match-up incorrectly. The static defense player will have a much more difficult time defending all of his/her area by simply shifting units around as opposed to the dropship player, who will be able to drop on weak spots in their opponent's defense. Additionally, the dropship player will be able to defend by picking a bunch of units up and putting them where they need to be in key spots on the map to defend.

In PvP, there's a "zealot stage" of the game, "dragoon/reaver stage" of the game, and then there's a late stage of the game. The person who reaches the next 'stage' of the game first generally has a mobility advantage. A zealot/archon/templar army is much easier to control than a dragoon/reaver army. Having reaver first gives the player the ability to keep their opponent in-base because the opponent doesn't know when or where their opponent will hit until/unless they have observers.

"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Hannibaal
Profile Joined July 2016
41 Posts
January 12 2018 19:38 GMT
#43
On June 04 2017 17:49 tomatriedes wrote:
Perhaps they could try adding an 'easy' mode option to BW remastered that has automining, larger control groups and multiple building selection and see how that works. There's probably all sorts of reasons why it wouldn't work well but it would be interesting to see what it's like.

Multiple Building Selection next to deathballs are the cancer of SC2, due to that in SC2 there are very few comebacks, the MBS makes the snowball effect bigger.
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
March 31 2023 09:54 GMT
#44
Just want to say this is a very nice, well written, blog post. I missed this when it was published.
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1d 2h
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft408
Nathanias 115
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 679
Larva 138
Shuttle 97
Sexy 54
NaDa 25
Dota 2
monkeys_forever280
League of Legends
JimRising 844
C9.Mang0415
Counter-Strike
Fnx 222
m0e_tv207
minikerr51
Other Games
summit1g7882
tarik_tv6909
ViBE154
Maynarde123
Fuzer 43
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick46417
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta64
• HeavenSC 23
• Mapu1
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 28
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22564
League of Legends
• Doublelift5448
• Stunt284
Other Games
• imaqtpie1812
• Scarra898
• WagamamaTV256
Upcoming Events
SOOP
1d 2h
SHIN vs GuMiho
Cure vs Creator
The PondCast
1d 8h
Wardi Open
1d 10h
Big Gabe XPERIONCRAFT
1d 11h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
IPSL
2 days
DragOn vs Sziky
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-06
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
Escore Tournament S1: W3
OSC Championship Season 13
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Big Gabe Cup #3
Nations Cup 2026
Underdog Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.