• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:16
CEST 17:16
KST 00:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver4[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down0StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon98Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?178Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9
StarCraft 2
General
Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 SC2 AI Tournament 2026 Fall Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament KSL Week #92
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice
Brood War
General
Remastered crash fix suggestions Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! [D] Brainstorming a balance patch for Brood war Making an Online Broodwar Manager Game
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro16 Group D [ASL22] Ro16 Group C [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro16 Group B
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation Diablo IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Virtual Romance, Real-Life C…
TrAiDoS
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6416 users

The Failures of SC2 - Page 3

Blogs > EsportsJohn
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
June 08 2017 23:55 GMT
#41
On June 08 2017 19:26 conTAgi0n wrote:
Auto-mining has become an expectation for modern RTS games, and macro mechanics are an alternative that most gamers are willing to accept. Plus you could make the case that psychologically, forgetting to send workers to mine feels like a mistake, whereas remembering to use a macro mechanic feels like a reward.


This is the ironic part. Aside from the very early stages of the game, forgetting to send your workers to mining right away (we'll say you're particularly horrible and delay 20s on every worker), it's nowhere near as punishing as forgetting to inject or drop a MULE (though Blizz has made a few changes in LotV to address that).

And I guess that's the whole appeal of SC2. In a lot of ways, you get instant gratification by remembering to do your macro mechanics occasionally or by barely microing one insanely cost-effective unit into a mineral line and killing the entire thing. But the balance sits on a razor's edge because when your opponent does stuff marginally well, they can just outright kill you. There's not a whole lot of in between (see: Rogue making 20 mutas against soO earlier today and the insta-gg).

On June 09 2017 08:08 ninazerg wrote:
btw, this is not an "argument" or "debate" reply. I'm just saying my thoughts.


I appreciate it! There's a lot of interesting stuff in this reply, most of which I agree with.

This is only half-true. Maybe you were using hyperbole, but you said "literally no number of marine/medic" and I wasn't sure, because it's not cost-effective to break the ramp with marine/medic, but that doesn't mean it literally can't be done. Besides that, there are many situations where the attacker has an advantage, like if a Zerg is sending guardians to hit SCVs from over a cliff, and the units at the bottom of the cliff can't reach them because they're over water.


This is true all the mirror matches in SC1, and also TvZ. The main difficulty for Zerg in TvZ is defending all of the places that Terran can hit them from.


Maybe a bit hyperbolic. This entire article is really a rant, so there's definitely areas where I may have just overstated facts or made up random and quite possibly incorrect concepts (like "a ball is the perfect shape for damage").

However, in the case of how defender's advantage works in SC1, I fundamentally disagree here. In the case of guardians or drop play having an advantage on aggression, this is mostly just a side effect of high ground advantages and unit design (range). If you consider the same example, but both sides are reinforcing and trading continually—we'll say Terran continues to build wraiths while Zerg reinforces with scourge/overlords—the advantage will eventually go in favor of Terran assuming fairly even trades because of the reinforcement distance. Of course, the game is a lot more complicated than this and 3 wraiths could kill all of the scourge, the guardians, and win the game with good enough micro.

In the case of mirror matchups, I again fundamentally disagree here. While PvP is arguably consistently unstable, defenders can take advantage of building placement to soak up damage, and reavers (arguably the most important unit in early game PvP) reinforce MUCH faster for the defending player. In the later portions of the game, it plays out a bit more like SC2, I will admit to that haha. TvT, you insane. The big point I'm trying to make here is that defensive units like reavers, tanks, lurkers, defilers, etc. do an insane job of warding away much larger armies and/or forcing cost-ineffective trades. In addition to the fact that reinforcement takes real time to move across the map (shoutout to Nydus Canal though), it's much harder for the aggressor to match the defender over a long period of time unless they start with a substantial advantage.

The only reason to 'spread your army out' is because you have a numerical superiority that makes such a thing possible. There are some obvious historical examples of this, but let's stick to video games. If you play a game with a supply cap, then it's not possible to have a huge advantage in numbers unless you cripple your opponent early in the game. It stands to reason, then, that if you cannot outnumber your opponent, you will gain a different kind of advantage. I'm not even sure why SC2 has a supply cap, though. It just feels like they were trying to create a retro game with modern game stuff in it, and it didn't work out. Now the object is to just mass the most powerful or composition-correct series of units until you reach 200, and then you have no choice but to attack. This archetype occurs in SC1 frequently, and is not unique to SC2.


I thought about this some too after posting this blog. It was argued at some point that SC2 should raise the cap to 300 to solve the "three base cap" problem, but now that I'm arguing about it from the point of view of critical mass and army size, it kind of makes sense. If you up the supply enough to actually hit the critical mass for SC2 armies, maybe it becomes a better strategy to split your forces up into two huge armies. And how is that different from splitting up small groups?

It's an interesting avenue of thought to go down, but I don't think it matters anymore since LotV already kind of forces you to split up units anyway.

I don't know how hard it is to scout in SC2, but something about this seems amiss.


On the whole, scouting in SC2 is MUCH easier in the mid to late game, but the economy changes in LotV forced a lot more blind tech decisions in the early game, especially for Zerg players who relied on overlord scouting. Other than that, there's a lot of ultra crisis units like oracles, hellions, adepts, and lings that can decimate a mineral line if you don't have things in the proper position or know their trajectory coming into your base. This is true to some degree with units in BW as well, but I feel like it's generally easier to predict and deflect.

I agree with this, mostly. Units should not pack themselves together like sardines. A ball is the perfect shape for taking ranged AoE damage, I'd say. If the ball is made of ranged units against melee units, then the ball is going to be more efficient theoretically. For dealing damage, ranged units are best when situated in an arc, so all of them can fire onto an incoming enemy from all sides. This is especially important for melee units, so that they can all hit at the same time. If melee units attack in a ball, only the units at the front can attack.


Fair.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 05:28:58
June 09 2017 05:28 GMT
#42
On June 09 2017 08:55 EsportsJohn wrote:
However, in the case of how defender's advantage works in SC1, I fundamentally disagree here. In the case of guardians or drop play having an advantage on aggression, this is mostly just a side effect of high ground advantages and unit design (range). If you consider the same example, but both sides are reinforcing and trading continually—we'll say Terran continues to build wraiths while Zerg reinforces with scourge/overlords—the advantage will eventually go in favor of Terran assuming fairly even trades because of the reinforcement distance. Of course, the game is a lot more complicated than this and 3 wraiths could kill all of the scourge, the guardians, and win the game with good enough micro.

In the case of mirror matchups, I again fundamentally disagree here. While PvP is arguably consistently unstable, defenders can take advantage of building placement to soak up damage, and reavers (arguably the most important unit in early game PvP) reinforce MUCH faster for the defending player. In the later portions of the game, it plays out a bit more like SC2, I will admit to that haha. TvT, you insane. The big point I'm trying to make here is that defensive units like reavers, tanks, lurkers, defilers, etc. do an insane job of warding away much larger armies and/or forcing cost-ineffective trades. In addition to the fact that reinforcement takes real time to move across the map (shoutout to Nydus Canal though), it's much harder for the aggressor to match the defender over a long period of time unless they start with a substantial advantage.


I'm talking strictly about mobility. For example, in TvT, if one player goes mostly static defense against a player that has a bunch of dropships, neither one is playing the match-up incorrectly. The static defense player will have a much more difficult time defending all of his/her area by simply shifting units around as opposed to the dropship player, who will be able to drop on weak spots in their opponent's defense. Additionally, the dropship player will be able to defend by picking a bunch of units up and putting them where they need to be in key spots on the map to defend.

In PvP, there's a "zealot stage" of the game, "dragoon/reaver stage" of the game, and then there's a late stage of the game. The person who reaches the next 'stage' of the game first generally has a mobility advantage. A zealot/archon/templar army is much easier to control than a dragoon/reaver army. Having reaver first gives the player the ability to keep their opponent in-base because the opponent doesn't know when or where their opponent will hit until/unless they have observers.

"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Hannibaal
Profile Joined July 2016
41 Posts
January 12 2018 19:38 GMT
#43
On June 04 2017 17:49 tomatriedes wrote:
Perhaps they could try adding an 'easy' mode option to BW remastered that has automining, larger control groups and multiple building selection and see how that works. There's probably all sorts of reasons why it wouldn't work well but it would be interesting to see what it's like.

Multiple Building Selection next to deathballs are the cancer of SC2, due to that in SC2 there are very few comebacks, the MBS makes the snowball effect bigger.
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
March 31 2023 09:54 GMT
#44
Just want to say this is a very nice, well written, blog post. I missed this when it was published.
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8h 45m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ByuN (SOOP) 514
ProTech142
BRAT_OK 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 27221
Bisu 2814
Jaedong 2045
Soulkey 1048
BeSt 497
Mini 468
Horang2 379
Rush 289
Soma 285
actioN 266
[ Show more ]
Stork 245
Larva 239
ggaemo 197
firebathero 169
EffOrt 148
hero 94
Pusan 80
Zeus 76
Barracks 64
Dewaltoss 58
soO 45
Liquid`Ret 43
Killer 35
PianO 30
ToSsGirL 29
sSak 28
Trap 21
Sexy 19
sorry 18
Terrorterran 17
HiyA 17
Noble 14
ajuk12(nOOB) 13
scan(afreeca) 11
Sacsri 5
Dota 2
syndereN603
420jenkins312
Fuzer 163
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King95
Other Games
Grubby9375
singsing2497
hiko888
Liquid`RaSZi717
Lowko424
Beastyqt329
FrodaN240
DeMusliM229
Liquid`VortiX151
ArmadaUGS83
QueenE53
ceh92
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1001
BasetradeTV54
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 9
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile134
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4197
• WagamamaTV882
League of Legends
• Nemesis2439
• Jankos1929
• TFBlade874
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
8h 45m
The PondCast
18h 45m
Kung Fu Cup
19h 45m
Replay Cast
1d 8h
KCM Race Survival
1d 18h
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 19h
OSC
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
GSL
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL
4 days
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
4 days
Spirit vs Mixu
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-14
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Calamity Invitational
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.