• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:21
CEST 07:21
KST 14:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers13Maestros of the Game 2 announced72026 GSL Tour plans announced14Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid24
StarCraft 2
General
Maestros of the Game 2 announced Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists MaNa leaves Team Liquid 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool
Tourneys
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 522 Flip My Base The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss Mutation # 520 Moving Fees
Brood War
General
Data needed Any progamer "explanation" videos like this one? ASL21 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL21 Strategy, Pimpest Plays Discussions
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro16 Group D [ASL21] Ro16 Group C [ASL21] Ro16 Group B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game General RTS Discussion Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2072 users

The Failures of SC2 - Page 3

Blogs > EsportsJohn
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
June 08 2017 23:55 GMT
#41
On June 08 2017 19:26 conTAgi0n wrote:
Auto-mining has become an expectation for modern RTS games, and macro mechanics are an alternative that most gamers are willing to accept. Plus you could make the case that psychologically, forgetting to send workers to mine feels like a mistake, whereas remembering to use a macro mechanic feels like a reward.


This is the ironic part. Aside from the very early stages of the game, forgetting to send your workers to mining right away (we'll say you're particularly horrible and delay 20s on every worker), it's nowhere near as punishing as forgetting to inject or drop a MULE (though Blizz has made a few changes in LotV to address that).

And I guess that's the whole appeal of SC2. In a lot of ways, you get instant gratification by remembering to do your macro mechanics occasionally or by barely microing one insanely cost-effective unit into a mineral line and killing the entire thing. But the balance sits on a razor's edge because when your opponent does stuff marginally well, they can just outright kill you. There's not a whole lot of in between (see: Rogue making 20 mutas against soO earlier today and the insta-gg).

On June 09 2017 08:08 ninazerg wrote:
btw, this is not an "argument" or "debate" reply. I'm just saying my thoughts.


I appreciate it! There's a lot of interesting stuff in this reply, most of which I agree with.

This is only half-true. Maybe you were using hyperbole, but you said "literally no number of marine/medic" and I wasn't sure, because it's not cost-effective to break the ramp with marine/medic, but that doesn't mean it literally can't be done. Besides that, there are many situations where the attacker has an advantage, like if a Zerg is sending guardians to hit SCVs from over a cliff, and the units at the bottom of the cliff can't reach them because they're over water.


This is true all the mirror matches in SC1, and also TvZ. The main difficulty for Zerg in TvZ is defending all of the places that Terran can hit them from.


Maybe a bit hyperbolic. This entire article is really a rant, so there's definitely areas where I may have just overstated facts or made up random and quite possibly incorrect concepts (like "a ball is the perfect shape for damage").

However, in the case of how defender's advantage works in SC1, I fundamentally disagree here. In the case of guardians or drop play having an advantage on aggression, this is mostly just a side effect of high ground advantages and unit design (range). If you consider the same example, but both sides are reinforcing and trading continually—we'll say Terran continues to build wraiths while Zerg reinforces with scourge/overlords—the advantage will eventually go in favor of Terran assuming fairly even trades because of the reinforcement distance. Of course, the game is a lot more complicated than this and 3 wraiths could kill all of the scourge, the guardians, and win the game with good enough micro.

In the case of mirror matchups, I again fundamentally disagree here. While PvP is arguably consistently unstable, defenders can take advantage of building placement to soak up damage, and reavers (arguably the most important unit in early game PvP) reinforce MUCH faster for the defending player. In the later portions of the game, it plays out a bit more like SC2, I will admit to that haha. TvT, you insane. The big point I'm trying to make here is that defensive units like reavers, tanks, lurkers, defilers, etc. do an insane job of warding away much larger armies and/or forcing cost-ineffective trades. In addition to the fact that reinforcement takes real time to move across the map (shoutout to Nydus Canal though), it's much harder for the aggressor to match the defender over a long period of time unless they start with a substantial advantage.

The only reason to 'spread your army out' is because you have a numerical superiority that makes such a thing possible. There are some obvious historical examples of this, but let's stick to video games. If you play a game with a supply cap, then it's not possible to have a huge advantage in numbers unless you cripple your opponent early in the game. It stands to reason, then, that if you cannot outnumber your opponent, you will gain a different kind of advantage. I'm not even sure why SC2 has a supply cap, though. It just feels like they were trying to create a retro game with modern game stuff in it, and it didn't work out. Now the object is to just mass the most powerful or composition-correct series of units until you reach 200, and then you have no choice but to attack. This archetype occurs in SC1 frequently, and is not unique to SC2.


I thought about this some too after posting this blog. It was argued at some point that SC2 should raise the cap to 300 to solve the "three base cap" problem, but now that I'm arguing about it from the point of view of critical mass and army size, it kind of makes sense. If you up the supply enough to actually hit the critical mass for SC2 armies, maybe it becomes a better strategy to split your forces up into two huge armies. And how is that different from splitting up small groups?

It's an interesting avenue of thought to go down, but I don't think it matters anymore since LotV already kind of forces you to split up units anyway.

I don't know how hard it is to scout in SC2, but something about this seems amiss.


On the whole, scouting in SC2 is MUCH easier in the mid to late game, but the economy changes in LotV forced a lot more blind tech decisions in the early game, especially for Zerg players who relied on overlord scouting. Other than that, there's a lot of ultra crisis units like oracles, hellions, adepts, and lings that can decimate a mineral line if you don't have things in the proper position or know their trajectory coming into your base. This is true to some degree with units in BW as well, but I feel like it's generally easier to predict and deflect.

I agree with this, mostly. Units should not pack themselves together like sardines. A ball is the perfect shape for taking ranged AoE damage, I'd say. If the ball is made of ranged units against melee units, then the ball is going to be more efficient theoretically. For dealing damage, ranged units are best when situated in an arc, so all of them can fire onto an incoming enemy from all sides. This is especially important for melee units, so that they can all hit at the same time. If melee units attack in a ball, only the units at the front can attack.


Fair.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 05:28:58
June 09 2017 05:28 GMT
#42
On June 09 2017 08:55 EsportsJohn wrote:
However, in the case of how defender's advantage works in SC1, I fundamentally disagree here. In the case of guardians or drop play having an advantage on aggression, this is mostly just a side effect of high ground advantages and unit design (range). If you consider the same example, but both sides are reinforcing and trading continually—we'll say Terran continues to build wraiths while Zerg reinforces with scourge/overlords—the advantage will eventually go in favor of Terran assuming fairly even trades because of the reinforcement distance. Of course, the game is a lot more complicated than this and 3 wraiths could kill all of the scourge, the guardians, and win the game with good enough micro.

In the case of mirror matchups, I again fundamentally disagree here. While PvP is arguably consistently unstable, defenders can take advantage of building placement to soak up damage, and reavers (arguably the most important unit in early game PvP) reinforce MUCH faster for the defending player. In the later portions of the game, it plays out a bit more like SC2, I will admit to that haha. TvT, you insane. The big point I'm trying to make here is that defensive units like reavers, tanks, lurkers, defilers, etc. do an insane job of warding away much larger armies and/or forcing cost-ineffective trades. In addition to the fact that reinforcement takes real time to move across the map (shoutout to Nydus Canal though), it's much harder for the aggressor to match the defender over a long period of time unless they start with a substantial advantage.


I'm talking strictly about mobility. For example, in TvT, if one player goes mostly static defense against a player that has a bunch of dropships, neither one is playing the match-up incorrectly. The static defense player will have a much more difficult time defending all of his/her area by simply shifting units around as opposed to the dropship player, who will be able to drop on weak spots in their opponent's defense. Additionally, the dropship player will be able to defend by picking a bunch of units up and putting them where they need to be in key spots on the map to defend.

In PvP, there's a "zealot stage" of the game, "dragoon/reaver stage" of the game, and then there's a late stage of the game. The person who reaches the next 'stage' of the game first generally has a mobility advantage. A zealot/archon/templar army is much easier to control than a dragoon/reaver army. Having reaver first gives the player the ability to keep their opponent in-base because the opponent doesn't know when or where their opponent will hit until/unless they have observers.

"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Hannibaal
Profile Joined July 2016
41 Posts
January 12 2018 19:38 GMT
#43
On June 04 2017 17:49 tomatriedes wrote:
Perhaps they could try adding an 'easy' mode option to BW remastered that has automining, larger control groups and multiple building selection and see how that works. There's probably all sorts of reasons why it wouldn't work well but it would be interesting to see what it's like.

Multiple Building Selection next to deathballs are the cancer of SC2, due to that in SC2 there are very few comebacks, the MBS makes the snowball effect bigger.
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
March 31 2023 09:54 GMT
#44
Just want to say this is a very nice, well written, blog post. I missed this when it was published.
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiGosaur Cup
00:00
#78
PiGStarcraft276
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 28
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 6840
Nal_rA 336
ProTech124
Bale 11
Icarus 9
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox532
Mew2King54
Other Games
summit1g9258
WinterStarcraft503
PiGStarcraft276
C9.Mang0272
Trikslyr128
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick902
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1552
• Stunt482
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
4h 39m
Replay Cast
18h 39m
The PondCast
1d 4h
KCM Race Survival
1d 4h
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
1d 5h
Gerald vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
ByuN vs TBD
Rogue vs MaxPax
ShoWTimE vs TBD
OSC
1d 9h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 18h
Escore
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
3 days
Universe Titan Cup
3 days
Rogue vs Percival
Ladder Legends
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
BSL
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
4 days
Ladder Legends
4 days
BSL
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Soma vs TBD
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
TBD vs YSC
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-04-20
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W4
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.