• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:21
CEST 19:21
KST 02:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b2IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly4Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"7ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!40Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters2
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) 3kb/s downloading patch..... are we back to 1998? Terran or Protoss
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly INu's Battles#18 - Cure, herO, Rogue & ByuN
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Industrial Park New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate
External Content
Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation
Brood War
General
screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool BW General Discussion ASL22 General Discussion ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2v2v2v2 Tournament Star Con San Diego 2026 Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvT advise for noobs
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread 2026-27 Football Thread placeholder TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Games, Hormones, and "Dark" …
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10144 users

The Failures of SC2 - Page 3

Blogs > EsportsJohn
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
June 08 2017 23:55 GMT
#41
On June 08 2017 19:26 conTAgi0n wrote:
Auto-mining has become an expectation for modern RTS games, and macro mechanics are an alternative that most gamers are willing to accept. Plus you could make the case that psychologically, forgetting to send workers to mine feels like a mistake, whereas remembering to use a macro mechanic feels like a reward.


This is the ironic part. Aside from the very early stages of the game, forgetting to send your workers to mining right away (we'll say you're particularly horrible and delay 20s on every worker), it's nowhere near as punishing as forgetting to inject or drop a MULE (though Blizz has made a few changes in LotV to address that).

And I guess that's the whole appeal of SC2. In a lot of ways, you get instant gratification by remembering to do your macro mechanics occasionally or by barely microing one insanely cost-effective unit into a mineral line and killing the entire thing. But the balance sits on a razor's edge because when your opponent does stuff marginally well, they can just outright kill you. There's not a whole lot of in between (see: Rogue making 20 mutas against soO earlier today and the insta-gg).

On June 09 2017 08:08 ninazerg wrote:
btw, this is not an "argument" or "debate" reply. I'm just saying my thoughts.


I appreciate it! There's a lot of interesting stuff in this reply, most of which I agree with.

This is only half-true. Maybe you were using hyperbole, but you said "literally no number of marine/medic" and I wasn't sure, because it's not cost-effective to break the ramp with marine/medic, but that doesn't mean it literally can't be done. Besides that, there are many situations where the attacker has an advantage, like if a Zerg is sending guardians to hit SCVs from over a cliff, and the units at the bottom of the cliff can't reach them because they're over water.


This is true all the mirror matches in SC1, and also TvZ. The main difficulty for Zerg in TvZ is defending all of the places that Terran can hit them from.


Maybe a bit hyperbolic. This entire article is really a rant, so there's definitely areas where I may have just overstated facts or made up random and quite possibly incorrect concepts (like "a ball is the perfect shape for damage").

However, in the case of how defender's advantage works in SC1, I fundamentally disagree here. In the case of guardians or drop play having an advantage on aggression, this is mostly just a side effect of high ground advantages and unit design (range). If you consider the same example, but both sides are reinforcing and trading continually—we'll say Terran continues to build wraiths while Zerg reinforces with scourge/overlords—the advantage will eventually go in favor of Terran assuming fairly even trades because of the reinforcement distance. Of course, the game is a lot more complicated than this and 3 wraiths could kill all of the scourge, the guardians, and win the game with good enough micro.

In the case of mirror matchups, I again fundamentally disagree here. While PvP is arguably consistently unstable, defenders can take advantage of building placement to soak up damage, and reavers (arguably the most important unit in early game PvP) reinforce MUCH faster for the defending player. In the later portions of the game, it plays out a bit more like SC2, I will admit to that haha. TvT, you insane. The big point I'm trying to make here is that defensive units like reavers, tanks, lurkers, defilers, etc. do an insane job of warding away much larger armies and/or forcing cost-ineffective trades. In addition to the fact that reinforcement takes real time to move across the map (shoutout to Nydus Canal though), it's much harder for the aggressor to match the defender over a long period of time unless they start with a substantial advantage.

The only reason to 'spread your army out' is because you have a numerical superiority that makes such a thing possible. There are some obvious historical examples of this, but let's stick to video games. If you play a game with a supply cap, then it's not possible to have a huge advantage in numbers unless you cripple your opponent early in the game. It stands to reason, then, that if you cannot outnumber your opponent, you will gain a different kind of advantage. I'm not even sure why SC2 has a supply cap, though. It just feels like they were trying to create a retro game with modern game stuff in it, and it didn't work out. Now the object is to just mass the most powerful or composition-correct series of units until you reach 200, and then you have no choice but to attack. This archetype occurs in SC1 frequently, and is not unique to SC2.


I thought about this some too after posting this blog. It was argued at some point that SC2 should raise the cap to 300 to solve the "three base cap" problem, but now that I'm arguing about it from the point of view of critical mass and army size, it kind of makes sense. If you up the supply enough to actually hit the critical mass for SC2 armies, maybe it becomes a better strategy to split your forces up into two huge armies. And how is that different from splitting up small groups?

It's an interesting avenue of thought to go down, but I don't think it matters anymore since LotV already kind of forces you to split up units anyway.

I don't know how hard it is to scout in SC2, but something about this seems amiss.


On the whole, scouting in SC2 is MUCH easier in the mid to late game, but the economy changes in LotV forced a lot more blind tech decisions in the early game, especially for Zerg players who relied on overlord scouting. Other than that, there's a lot of ultra crisis units like oracles, hellions, adepts, and lings that can decimate a mineral line if you don't have things in the proper position or know their trajectory coming into your base. This is true to some degree with units in BW as well, but I feel like it's generally easier to predict and deflect.

I agree with this, mostly. Units should not pack themselves together like sardines. A ball is the perfect shape for taking ranged AoE damage, I'd say. If the ball is made of ranged units against melee units, then the ball is going to be more efficient theoretically. For dealing damage, ranged units are best when situated in an arc, so all of them can fire onto an incoming enemy from all sides. This is especially important for melee units, so that they can all hit at the same time. If melee units attack in a ball, only the units at the front can attack.


Fair.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 05:28:58
June 09 2017 05:28 GMT
#42
On June 09 2017 08:55 EsportsJohn wrote:
However, in the case of how defender's advantage works in SC1, I fundamentally disagree here. In the case of guardians or drop play having an advantage on aggression, this is mostly just a side effect of high ground advantages and unit design (range). If you consider the same example, but both sides are reinforcing and trading continually—we'll say Terran continues to build wraiths while Zerg reinforces with scourge/overlords—the advantage will eventually go in favor of Terran assuming fairly even trades because of the reinforcement distance. Of course, the game is a lot more complicated than this and 3 wraiths could kill all of the scourge, the guardians, and win the game with good enough micro.

In the case of mirror matchups, I again fundamentally disagree here. While PvP is arguably consistently unstable, defenders can take advantage of building placement to soak up damage, and reavers (arguably the most important unit in early game PvP) reinforce MUCH faster for the defending player. In the later portions of the game, it plays out a bit more like SC2, I will admit to that haha. TvT, you insane. The big point I'm trying to make here is that defensive units like reavers, tanks, lurkers, defilers, etc. do an insane job of warding away much larger armies and/or forcing cost-ineffective trades. In addition to the fact that reinforcement takes real time to move across the map (shoutout to Nydus Canal though), it's much harder for the aggressor to match the defender over a long period of time unless they start with a substantial advantage.


I'm talking strictly about mobility. For example, in TvT, if one player goes mostly static defense against a player that has a bunch of dropships, neither one is playing the match-up incorrectly. The static defense player will have a much more difficult time defending all of his/her area by simply shifting units around as opposed to the dropship player, who will be able to drop on weak spots in their opponent's defense. Additionally, the dropship player will be able to defend by picking a bunch of units up and putting them where they need to be in key spots on the map to defend.

In PvP, there's a "zealot stage" of the game, "dragoon/reaver stage" of the game, and then there's a late stage of the game. The person who reaches the next 'stage' of the game first generally has a mobility advantage. A zealot/archon/templar army is much easier to control than a dragoon/reaver army. Having reaver first gives the player the ability to keep their opponent in-base because the opponent doesn't know when or where their opponent will hit until/unless they have observers.

"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Hannibaal
Profile Joined July 2016
41 Posts
January 12 2018 19:38 GMT
#43
On June 04 2017 17:49 tomatriedes wrote:
Perhaps they could try adding an 'easy' mode option to BW remastered that has automining, larger control groups and multiple building selection and see how that works. There's probably all sorts of reasons why it wouldn't work well but it would be interesting to see what it's like.

Multiple Building Selection next to deathballs are the cancer of SC2, due to that in SC2 there are very few comebacks, the MBS makes the snowball effect bigger.
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
March 31 2023 09:54 GMT
#44
Just want to say this is a very nice, well written, blog post. I missed this when it was published.
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 39m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ByuN 597
mouzHeroMarine 275
RushiSC 40
MindelVK 19
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4867
Shuttle 2392
Mini 396
firebathero 252
ggaemo 168
Soulkey 138
Sharp 69
Noble 67
BRAT_OK 62
Yoon 49
[ Show more ]
Hyun 47
soO 42
Shine 21
Rock 20
Dewaltoss 19
scan(afreeca) 18
Mong 15
ajuk12(nOOB) 13
IntoTheRainbow 12
Dota 2
qojqva2770
XcaliburYe388
Counter-Strike
fl0m2018
byalli1070
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0137
Mew2King68
Other Games
FrodaN2200
Beastyqt694
ceh9542
Grubby528
elazer351
ArmadaUGS149
XaKoH 76
QueenE58
Trikslyr49
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV168
StarCraft 2
angryscii 14
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3554
League of Legends
• Nemesis3007
• TFBlade503
Other Games
• imaqtpie613
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
6h 39m
The PondCast
16h 39m
Kung Fu Cup
17h 39m
Patches Events
22h 39m
Replay Cast
1d 15h
CrankTV Team League
1d 17h
OSC
1d 19h
OSC
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Escore
2 days
[ Show More ]
CrankTV Team League
2 days
OSC
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Solar vs Lambo
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Clem vs Serral
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-07-27
SCTL 2026 Spring
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W5
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
Acropolis #5
Escore Tournament S3: W6
Escore Tournament S3: W7
Escore Tournament S3: W8
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.